Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 9 Discussion

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Apr 2012

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Thess said:

BloodRequiem said:
It was a quick painless death.

He didn't even choke her in the novels. Kiritsugu would have, if you know what I mean. ;P

It was mind blowing too ;)

@Leon_Gun

Which is why I put it in "" marks.

As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.

Jun 3, 2012 4:16 PM

#153

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Leon-Gun said:
AH, now that people mention the Gramps, it was funny how Waver was so bummed because even his brainwashing magic failed, although it was bound to happen. Rider made no attempt to keep a low profile and Waver failed to follow through and make sure the suggestion spell was kept in place. So it was like that last sting to his pride when he found he failed even with a simple spell. Thankfully to him the old man even had good advice for him so yeah, I think Gen really likes Team Rider.

BloodRequiem said:

ssjokg said:

yeah lets forget what they did till they got their wish.

Thats true.
Which is why it's ironic that the "bad guys" get the good end.

Considering what Kiritsugu has done (Kiritsugu admits in the LN that in the past he would had dropped the whole hotel Kayneth was staying at WITH all the people still inside it and called himself soft for staging the "fire" that got all the civilians outside the hotel) I wouldn't call him any better than Caster. If you wanna pardon indiscriminate slaughter because of "good intentions" we might as well pardon war.

Then we have Team Rider, Rider openly declaring he wants to conquer the whole world. In other words, he wants to wage war, loot conquered nations and rape a plenty just like the good old days back when he was alive. Yeah, sounds like a great and just wish right?

Team Lancer and Tokiomi had your usual boring magi wishes... those two were probably th least harmful, both of them knowing they have to keep casualties to a minimun and to hide their identities and actions from the public.

Kariya had good intentions but his "wish" would have destroyed the whole world since it means giving the Grail to a demented "vampire" who doesn't really have the best of intentions...anymore anyway.

ANd Kirei well....someone explained it well in another thread: "some people just want to watch the world burn." SO yeah, aside two Masters, everyone else was, intentionally or unintentionally screwing everyone.

Kiritsugu never was hero material anyway but at least hewouldnt orgasm from seeing children being transformed into music organs,umbrellas etc...And the fact that killing others for the greater good isnt better than slaughter has been stated before.The only killing I "justify" is Natalia and Team Lancer.The one is obvious why(we went on and on in the other thread) the other was what the HGW is all about.

I never thought Alexander was a hero in greek history,and I am Greek.I dont know why others see him as a Hero that showed our "culture" to the East.(lets not go on about how retarded most Greeks are about our "Heroes" ).FZ Alexander is a lot more likable than the one in history books but it's still him.

Tokiomi is another asshole for me for the obvious reason.And seeing what he is capable to do to his family I doubt he cares much about the methods he uses as long as there is secrecy.

Now Kayneth was probably the only one worthy to win.Killing Risei is part of the war and when kiritsugu gave him that contract he chose Sola and not the Grail.I think that says a lot.

Kariya targets only the participants.Yeah Tokiomi is an obsession but still if he had killed him he would move on to the others without putting outsiders in danger.As for the pilot of the F15...Well he was doomed either way and I doubt Kariya ordered Berserkerto hijack it unless I forgot something from the LN.

Kirei....I cant possible say it better.

But any one of them would have the same result if they obtained the grail unless the "Root wish" somehow works fine.

Jun 3, 2012 4:22 PM

#154

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Apr 2012

3643

ssjokg said:

Leon-Gun said:
AH, now that people mention the Gramps, it was funny how Waver was so bummed because even his brainwashing magic failed, although it was bound to happen. Rider made no attempt to keep a low profile and Waver failed to follow through and make sure the suggestion spell was kept in place. So it was like that last sting to his pride when he found he failed even with a simple spell. Thankfully to him the old man even had good advice for him so yeah, I think Gen really likes Team Rider.

BloodRequiem said:

ssjokg said:

yeah lets forget what they did till they got their wish.

Thats true.
Which is why it's ironic that the "bad guys" get the good end.

Considering what Kiritsugu has done (Kiritsugu admits in the LN that in the past he would had dropped the whole hotel Kayneth was staying at WITH all the people still inside it and called himself soft for staging the "fire" that got all the civilians outside the hotel) I wouldn't call him any better than Caster. If you wanna pardon indiscriminate slaughter because of "good intentions" we might as well pardon war.

Then we have Team Rider, Rider openly declaring he wants to conquer the whole world. In other words, he wants to wage war, loot conquered nations and rape a plenty just like the good old days back when he was alive. Yeah, sounds like a great and just wish right?

Team Lancer and Tokiomi had your usual boring magi wishes... those two were probably th least harmful, both of them knowing they have to keep casualties to a minimun and to hide their identities and actions from the public.

Kariya had good intentions but his "wish" would have destroyed the whole world since it means giving the Grail to a demented "vampire" who doesn't really have the best of intentions...anymore anyway.

ANd Kirei well....someone explained it well in another thread: "some people just want to watch the world burn." SO yeah, aside two Masters, everyone else was, intentionally or unintentionally screwing everyone.

Kiritsugu never was hero material anyway but at least hewouldnt orgasm from seeing children being transformed into music organs,umbrellas etc...And the fact that killing others for the greater good isnt better than slaughter has been stated before.The only killing I "justify" is Natalia and Team Lancer.The one is obvious why(we went on and on in the other thread) the other was what the HGW is all about.

I never thought Alexander was a hero in greek history,and I am Greek.I dont know why others see him as a Hero that showed our "culture" to the East.(lets not go on about how retarded most Greeks are about our "Heroes" ).FZ Alexander is a lot more likable than the one in history books but it's still him.

Tokiomi is another asshole for me for the obvious reason.And seeing what he is capable to do to his family I doubt he cares much about the methods he uses as long as there is secrecy.

Now Kayneth was probably the only one worthy to win.Killing Risei is part of the war and when kiritsugu gave him that contract he chose Sola and not the Grail.I think that says a lot.

Kariya targets only the participants.Yeah Tokiomi is an obsession but still if he had killed him he would move on to the others without putting outsiders in danger.As for the pilot of the F15...Well he was doomed either way and I doubt Kariya ordered Berserkerto hijack it unless I forgot something from the LN.

Kirei....I cant possible say it better.

But any one of them would have the same result if they obtained the grail unless the "Root wish" somehow works fine.

Considering HF, the wish for the records of Akasha probably isn't very harmful.
How the association will use that knowledge is another matter altogether.

As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.

Jun 3, 2012 4:26 PM

#155

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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BloodRequiem said:

Considering HF, the wish for the records of Akasha probably isn't very harmful.
How the association will use that knowledge is another matter altogether.

Can you remind me?It's been a couple of years since I played it last time.

Jun 3, 2012 4:35 PM

#156

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Apr 2012

3643

ssjokg said:

BloodRequiem said:

Considering HF, the wish for the records of Akasha probably isn't very harmful.
How the association will use that knowledge is another matter altogether.

Can you remind me?It's been a couple of years since I played it last time.

The root is just a bunch of information about the truth of the universe.
Also.

As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.

Jun 3, 2012 4:45 PM

#157

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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20056

BloodRequiem said:

ssjokg said:

BloodRequiem said:

Considering HF, the wish for the records of Akasha probably isn't very harmful.
How the association will use that knowledge is another matter altogether.

Can you remind me?It's been a couple of years since I played it last time.

The root is just a bunch of information about the truth of the universe.
Also.

ssjokgJun 3, 2012 4:54 PM

Jun 3, 2012 4:54 PM

#158

BerrakBurcu

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Mar 2012

1332

Damn you Kotomine Kirei, now I really want to kill you

Also, guess this episode is the calm before the storm...and we get the final battles incomming

Jun 3, 2012 5:07 PM

#159

SephiriAzure

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1016

Yumekichi11 said:

Stark700 said:
I want to kill Kirei myself now.

LET ME JOIN! I could get some army against him. DAMN IT! I know it's all fiction but the the dagger in the heart does not stop from digging in it all the time. Does anyone feel the same? So painful and it so lingers in the mind. Especially if you love Irisviel as a character. TT_TT

Hell's yeah. Other than that, I really would want Rider to win, him and Waver are truly an awesome combo!!! I just really don't want them to die!!

I am a sucker for romance!!!!

]

Jun 3, 2012 6:30 PM

#160

Thess

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Leon-Gun said:
Then we have Team Rider, Rider openly declaring he wants to conquer the whole world. In other words, he wants to wage war, loot conquered nations and rape a plenty just like the good old days back when he was alive. Yeah, sounds like a great and just wish right?

No, he doesn't quite want that. Waver finally understands what Rider means with conquest (hint: it's none of those things) in episode 21. Rewatch.

ThessJun 3, 2012 6:33 PM

Jun 3, 2012 6:34 PM

#161

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Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:
Then we have Team Rider, Rider openly declaring he wants to conquer the whole world. In other words, he wants to wage war, loot conquered nations and rape a plenty just like the good old days back when he was alive. Yeah, sounds like a great and just wish right?

No, he doesn't quite want that. Waver finally understands what Rider means with conquest (hint: it's none of those things) in episode 21. Rewatch.

This doesn't mean people can misunderstand his intentions and attack him seriously. That's how he 'conquered' all those places in the flashback. He wasn't interested in attacking them. They kinda... attacked HIM.

Since when is Alexander peace friendly?Do you remember his proposal to Gil before they fight?

Jun 3, 2012 6:41 PM

#162

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ssjokg said:

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:
Then we have Team Rider, Rider openly declaring he wants to conquer the whole world. In other words, he wants to wage war, loot conquered nations and rape a plenty just like the good old days back when he was alive. Yeah, sounds like a great and just wish right?

No, he doesn't quite want that. Waver finally understands what Rider means with conquest (hint: it's none of those things) in episode 21. Rewatch.

This doesn't mean people can misunderstand his intentions and attack him seriously. That's how he 'conquered' all those places in the flashback. He wasn't interested in attacking them. They kinda... attacked HIM.

Since when is Alexander peace friendly?Do you remember his proposal to Gil before they fight?

Indeed, please don't throw romanticized ideas of glory and conquest here. Alexander wants to conquer, loot and rape. He was given several women as peace offerings or as political ties to ensure his domain over the kingdoms and his soldiers would obviously take anything they wanted, it's part of why you joined an army in those times. Please remember women were pretty much treated as valuable commodities by the ancient civilizations all the way until the modern era. It wasn't until fairly recently that women even dreamed of acquiring equality (that's not to say there weren't civilizations that valued women as leaders and even superior to men, but the Western Civilizations weren't those).

Let's just put it in these terms: if a foreigner shows up with an army at his back telling you he wanted free pass, what would you do? It's akin to showing up at a store with a loaded gun with it's safety off.

Either way, it's funny the fact the "real" Alexander the Great basically invaded Persia and the lands beyond as one massive ego trip. The whole find the edge of the world (Okeanos)? Just romantic fanfare thrown in to make his story more heroic.

Leon-GunJun 3, 2012 6:46 PM

Jun 3, 2012 6:56 PM

#163

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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Leon-Gun said:

ssjokg said:

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:
Then we have Team Rider, Rider openly declaring he wants to conquer the whole world. In other words, he wants to wage war, loot conquered nations and rape a plenty just like the good old days back when he was alive. Yeah, sounds like a great and just wish right?

No, he doesn't quite want that. Waver finally understands what Rider means with conquest (hint: it's none of those things) in episode 21. Rewatch.

This doesn't mean people can misunderstand his intentions and attack him seriously. That's how he 'conquered' all those places in the flashback. He wasn't interested in attacking them. They kinda... attacked HIM.

Since when is Alexander peace friendly?Do you remember his proposal to Gil before they fight?

Indeed, please don't throw romanticized ideas of glory and conquest here. Alexander wants to conquer, loot and rape. He was given several women as peace offerings or as political ties to ensure his domain over the kingdoms and his soldiers would obviously take anything they wanted, it's part of why you joined an army in those times. Please remember women were pretty much treated as valuable commodities by the ancient civilizations all the way until the modern era. It wasn't until fairly recently that women even dreamed of acquiring equality (that's not to say there weren't civilizations that valued women as leaders and even superior to men, but the Western Civilizations weren't those).

Let's just put it in these terms: if a foreigner shows up with an army at his back telling you he wanted free pass, what would you do? It's akin to showing up at a store with a loaded gun with it's safety off.

Either way, it's funny the fact the "real" Alexander the Great basically invaded Persia and the lands beyond as one massive ego trip. The whole find the edge of the world (Okeanos)? Just romantic fanfare thrown in to make his story more heroic.

Well he actually wanted to reach the end of the world but FZ sure makes it more romantic.His companions wanted him to give it up.Greek history/mythology is full of war loving heroes.Look at Trojan War.

Jun 3, 2012 7:31 PM

#164

Zhou

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Feb 2012

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Kirei, that fucking bastard killed Irisviel, can't believe it.

Oh, Rider, you're my favorite character and those lines in the preview, next episode has to be epic.

Jun 3, 2012 7:33 PM

#165

Thess

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1201

He's not the real Alexander, guys. He's the mythological version of him: the Aléxandros ho Mégas. That's why he's idealized. Isn't this plain obvious? That's why he has those Zeus' bulls. Secondly, Rider adjusts to modern life better than any Servant. Once he learns about the rules, Waver observes his adaptation and how smoothly he moves in the modern world (when earlier he went head on stealing book from a library, he didn't do this anymore).

Thirdly, what is wrong with possessing an arsenal or armies? Any country and war leader HAS armies and weapons.

ThessJun 3, 2012 7:38 PM

Jun 3, 2012 7:36 PM

#166

jeroz

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spoilers spoilers everywhere

Jun 3, 2012 7:37 PM

#167

ataraxial

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Thess said:
He's not the real Alexander, guys. He's the mythological version of him: the Aléxandros ho Mégas. That's why he's idealized. Isn't this plain obvious? That's why he has those Zeus' bulls. Secondly, Rider adjusts to modern life better than any Servant. Once he learns about the rules, Waver observes his adaptation and how smoothly he moves in the modern world (when earlier he went head on stealing book from a library, he didn't do this anymore).

Thirdly, what is wrong with possessing an arsenal or armies? Any country and war leader HAS armies and weapons.

Yeah, I think we should judge F/Z's Iskandar based on his own merits and not based on what the real Alexander the Great was like since, after all, they are not the same person.

Jun 3, 2012 7:41 PM

#168

Thess

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ataraxial said:
Yeah, I think we should judge F/Z's Iskandar based on his own merits and not based on what the real Alexander the Great was like since, after all, they are not the same person.

You'll think this should be super obvious when they turned Emperor Nero and King Arthur into girls. But nooo.

Character says he wants to 'conquer' the world but his idea of conquest is defeating through honorable ways to change minds and join his dream. It's to conquer hearts. He never gave a crap about conquering the kingdoms. It's stated in the damn novel that he left them intact so they kept being ruled by other people as usual. He said so that he wasn't interested in the least about them.

So obviously this means: HE WANTS TO RAPE/PILLAGE/KILL/LOOT, you guys!!!1! Gets tiresome. Specially when he immediately fixes his old way after the library incident to adjust into a modern standard of laws.

The idea behind the character is that history books got a lot about himl wrong, even about his height. It's lampshaded in the very novels. *eyeroll*

ThessJun 3, 2012 7:46 PM

Jun 3, 2012 7:44 PM

#169

Primity

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411

i really dislike watching Iri get hurt like that. ever since S1 episode 8 when she got gutted. she's just too pretty.

Jun 3, 2012 7:49 PM

#170

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Thess said:

ataraxial said:
Yeah, I think we should judge F/Z's Iskandar based on his own merits and not based on what the real Alexander the Great was like since, after all, they are not the same person.

You'll think this should be super obvious when they turned Emperor Nero and King Arthur into girls. But nooo.

Character says he wants to 'conquer' the world but his idea of conquest is defeating through honorable ways to change minds and join his dream. It's to conquer hearts. He never give a crap about the kingdoms. It's stated in the damn novel that he left them intact so they kept being ruled by other people as usual.

So obviously this means: HE WANTS TO RAPE/PILLAGE/KILL/LOOT, you guys!!!1! Gets tiresome. Specially when he immediately fixes his way after the library incident.

Since we change stuff because it's Fate/ then why not make Kiritusgu's wish possible.If Alexander could CONQUER without killing then that should be possible too.I am just saying.And we are talking about personalities not genders.I dont know much about Nero and Arthur but since the beginning Alexander was portrayed as a war machine in Fate/ just like in history.Now, how he gathered so many heroes under him without showing his power in war is beyond me.Or why they were divided for his territories,after his death.Which was mentioned in the LN.

ssjokgJun 3, 2012 8:00 PM

Jun 3, 2012 8:54 PM

#171

634754

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Feb 2011

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Dayum, Kirei is the man!

Jun 3, 2012 9:16 PM

#172

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ssjokg said:

Thess said:

ataraxial said:
Yeah, I think we should judge F/Z's Iskandar based on his own merits and not based on what the real Alexander the Great was like since, after all, they are not the same person.

You'll think this should be super obvious when they turned Emperor Nero and King Arthur into girls. But nooo.

Character says he wants to 'conquer' the world but his idea of conquest is defeating through honorable ways to change minds and join his dream. It's to conquer hearts. He never give a crap about the kingdoms. It's stated in the damn novel that he left them intact so they kept being ruled by other people as usual.

So obviously this means: HE WANTS TO RAPE/PILLAGE/KILL/LOOT, you guys!!!1! Gets tiresome. Specially when he immediately fixes his way after the library incident.

Since we change stuff because it's Fate/ then why not make Kiritusgu's wish possible.If Alexander could CONQUER without killing then that should be possible too.I am just saying.And we are talking about personalities not genders.I dont know much about Nero and Arthur but since the beginning Alexander was portrayed as a war machine in Fate/ just like in history.Now, how he gathered so many heroes under him without showing his power in war is beyond me.Or why they were divided for his territories,after his death.Which was mentioned in the LN.

May I also point out that outside of changing Arthur's gender, King Arthur's myth is almost unaltered. She gets the sword in the Stone, breaks it when fighting a battle without honor, goes around warring to restore Camelot to it's former glory, Sends her knights to look for the Holy Grail and can't find it. Lancelot steals her wife, and gets thrown out of the kingdom, she gets Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, yadda yadda yadda, ending with her stabbing Mordred and being dragged from the battlefield by Bedivere.

And if we're not going to at least compare Alexander to his real self, then maybe we shouldn't do the same to Gilgamesh either. Funny how that one is free game.

Leon-GunJun 3, 2012 9:19 PM

Jun 4, 2012 1:03 AM

#173

Reim_Seranth

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Teary episode. A perfect build-up for the next '10th June' episode (they must've calculated the airing days before the anime starts, such things cannot be mere coincidence)

newnar said:
I'm gonna buy a figurine of Kirei just so that I can chop him up SAW style.

lol. things got quite sadistic when he choked her.

Thess said:

ataraxial said:
Yeah, I think we should judge F/Z's Iskandar based on his own merits and not based on what the real Alexander the Great was like since, after all, they are not the same person.

You'll think this should be super obvious when they turned Emperor Nero and King Arthur into girls. But nooo.

Character says he wants to 'conquer' the world but his idea of conquest is defeating through honorable ways to change minds and join his dream. It's to conquer hearts. He never gave a crap about conquering the kingdoms. It's stated in the damn novel that he left them intact so they kept being ruled by other people as usual. He said so that he wasn't interested in the least about them.

So obviously this means: HE WANTS TO RAPE/PILLAGE/KILL/LOOT, you guys!!!1! Gets tiresome. Specially when he immediately fixes his old way after the library incident to adjust into a modern standard of laws.

The idea behind the character is that history books got a lot about himl wrong, even about his height. It's lampshaded in the very novels. *eyeroll*

agreed. It's stated in both the novel and the anime that he left the countries he conquered and move on to find okeanos. FZ Alexander and Historical Alexander cannot be considered one and the same.

Reim_SeranthJun 4, 2012 1:09 AM

~ IA- Aria on the Planetes ~ Vocaloid V3 voiced by LiA (Clannad Afterstory, Angel Beats! theme song singer)

Jun 4, 2012 2:02 AM

#174

removed-user

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Don't know what to say anymore after watching this episode, Just want the last three episodes NOW

Jun 4, 2012 2:42 AM

#175

DraconisMarch

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1646

Well, it's official: fuck Kirei. Seriously. Worthless piece of shit excuse for a human being. And you should feel bad.

In 2 just minutes' time, Waver's not-grandpa has proven to be a better character than he is.

So... are things finally going to start happening now?

Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club

Jun 4, 2012 3:28 AM

#176

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wishbook said:
Teary episode. A perfect build-up for the next '10th June' episode (they must've calculated the airing days before the anime starts, such things cannot be mere coincidence)

newnar said:
I'm gonna buy a figurine of Kirei just so that I can chop him up SAW style.

lol. things got quite sadistic when he choked her.

Thess said:

ataraxial said:
Yeah, I think we should judge F/Z's Iskandar based on his own merits and not based on what the real Alexander the Great was like since, after all, they are not the same person.

You'll think this should be super obvious when they turned Emperor Nero and King Arthur into girls. But nooo.

Character says he wants to 'conquer' the world but his idea of conquest is defeating through honorable ways to change minds and join his dream. It's to conquer hearts. He never gave a crap about conquering the kingdoms. It's stated in the damn novel that he left them intact so they kept being ruled by other people as usual. He said so that he wasn't interested in the least about them.

So obviously this means: HE WANTS TO RAPE/PILLAGE/KILL/LOOT, you guys!!!1! Gets tiresome. Specially when he immediately fixes his old way after the library incident to adjust into a modern standard of laws.

The idea behind the character is that history books got a lot about himl wrong, even about his height. It's lampshaded in the very novels. *eyeroll*

agreed. It's stated in both the novel and the anime that he left the countries he conquered and move on to find okeanos. FZ Alexander and Historical Alexander cannot be considered one and the same.

The real one also did that sometimes.And if we ignore how he acts/thinks toward the end of the HGW then he isnt any different from the real one.Pillage,kill,loot are part of him.It doesnt make him any better than the real one if he stopped doing that because of Waver during the war.

And this:

Conquering hearts?

Jun 4, 2012 3:29 AM

#177

Mayros

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344

rlly bad we know wat going to happen since we watched fate stay night @.@ ~

Jun 4, 2012 3:37 AM

#178

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DraconisMarch said:
Well, it's official: fuck Kirei. Seriously. Worthless piece of shit excuse for a human being. And you should feel bad.

In 2 just minutes' time, Waver's not-grandpa has proven to be a better character than he is.

So... are things finally going to start happening now?

Because nothing happened at all til now?

Jun 4, 2012 3:45 AM

#179

jeroz

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269

ssjokg said:

DraconisMarch said:
Well, it's official: fuck Kirei. Seriously. Worthless piece of shit excuse for a human being. And you should feel bad.

In 2 just minutes' time, Waver's not-grandpa has proven to be a better character than he is.

So... are things finally going to start happening now?

Because nothing happened at all til now?

ikr, can't wait for Lancer to win, I'd been supporting all series. He has been away from the spotlight for a long time so I'm guessing his preparation would be so awesome

Jun 4, 2012 4:04 AM

#180

Farabeuf

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Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

Jun 4, 2012 4:15 AM

#181

sonicxsam

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I wonder in the next box set for this season if the Irisviel clone scene will be uncensored or if they will keep it the same way.

Shirou you and me... are one of the same

Jun 4, 2012 4:18 AM

#182

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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Aug 2009

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Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

No one "supports" Gil in the previous comments.We were only discussing the nature of Rider.And

Jun 4, 2012 4:38 AM

#183

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Dec 2007

4845

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

Actually,hate Gil as much as you like, but he didn't do any backstabbing that wasn't done to him first. While yeah, he was pretty inclined to leaving his Master due to the several times Tokiomi went against Archer's own wishes he actually made Kirei show him an actual act of betrayal from Tokiomi before jumping ship. Gil had no obligation to remain bound to a "subject" who was plotting to kill him.

Jun 4, 2012 4:43 AM

#184

engas

Offline

Apr 2011

16

Just as I thought, Irisviel will die by the hands of Kirei but never expected him to just strangle her to death. Knowing that Araya Souren and Kirei have the same VA (same character aura too), I imagined Irisviel having the same gruesome death Touko had.

I'm glad it didn't turn out as I was expecting but still...Iri is dead.
Poor Kerry.

Jun 4, 2012 4:46 AM

#185

Farabeuf

The Shrike

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Nov 2009

11609

ssjokg said:

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

No one "supports" Gil in the previous comments.We were only discussing the nature of Rider.And

Yeah I've seen FSN so I know what's going to happen anyway. It doesn't change the fact that for this particular narrative I'd love for a different result. I thought more people would feel the same way too.

"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

Jun 4, 2012 5:00 AM

#186

Farabeuf

The Shrike

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Nov 2009

11609

Leon-Gun said:

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

Actually,hate Gil as much as you like, but he didn't do any backstabbing that wasn't done to him first. While yeah, he was pretty inclined to leaving his Master due to the several times Tokiomi went against Archer's own wishes he actually made Kirei show him an actual act of betrayal from Tokiomi before jumping ship. Gil had no obligation to remain bound to a "subject" who was plotting to kill him.

Who said I hate Gilgamesh? I just think he's an inferior character to Rider in everyway and it surprises me that people prefer him. That is all.

And I don't agree with your view that Tohsaka betrayed Gilgamesh. Tohsaka was his master, not the other way around.

"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

Jun 4, 2012 5:26 AM

#187

nina4life

Offline

Sep 2008

1105

Marzan said:

Who said I hate Gilgamesh? I just think he's an inferior character to Rider in everyway and it surprises me that people prefer him. That is all.

And I don't agree with your view that Tohsaka betrayed Gilgamesh. Tohsaka was his master, not the other way around.

Well, here I have to disagree with you. I personally think Gil is one of the best polished characters of this show. In FSN I hated the guy, he was there only to be overlypowered antagonist and main villain. Here he actually has a character, a meaning and a wish. He also does stuff, or makes others do it for him through persuasion and conversations, again, something which completely lacked in FSN.

However, I still do root for Rider in the upcoming fight, simply because he's fun and likable character, not because he's developed more.

Jun 4, 2012 5:43 AM

#188

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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Aug 2009

20056

Marzan said:

Leon-Gun said:

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

Actually,hate Gil as much as you like, but he didn't do any backstabbing that wasn't done to him first. While yeah, he was pretty inclined to leaving his Master due to the several times Tokiomi went against Archer's own wishes he actually made Kirei show him an actual act of betrayal from Tokiomi before jumping ship. Gil had no obligation to remain bound to a "subject" who was plotting to kill him.

Who said I hate Gilgamesh? I just think he's an inferior character to Rider in everyway and it surprises me that people prefer him. That is all.

And I don't agree with your view that Tohsaka betrayed Gilgamesh. Tohsaka was his master, not the other way around.

Master and Servant are only titles without any meaning.If they had a meaning there wouldnt be a need of Command Seals.If you noticed from the Servants that Fate/ has showned till now only Berserker Heracles was truly "loyal" to his Master without his Master betraying him .All the others either did what they wanted one way or the other, or were betrayed by their Masters.

ssjokgJun 4, 2012 5:47 AM

Jun 4, 2012 5:57 AM

#189

zudi

Offline

Mar 2011

262

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

No one was even "rooting" for Gilgamesh, I don't know what you've been reading but it's clear as day that most people love Rider on here. When people say Gil will win, it's not because they were "rooting" for him, they probably just acknowledged that Gilgamesh does not lose unless PIS and CIS are involved (and since Rider is not the main character he won't have plot armor on his side).

Jun 4, 2012 6:33 AM

#190

tisizho

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Jun 2012

20

I'm looking forward to how Archer's joker is expressed.
This will be the anime of this season.

Jun 4, 2012 7:08 AM

#191

zeroyuki92

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Nov 2010

791

Awesome build-ups. Let me jump to three week in the future and see all of the fights in one go.

Jun 4, 2012 7:25 AM

#192

Trenerka

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Mar 2009

100

Marzan said:
And I don't agree with your view that Tohsaka betrayed Gilgamesh. Tohsaka was his master, not the other way around.

Oh, really? Master-Servant system basically means that duo fights together so both parties can have their wish granted (dunno if this is how Grail works, but Servants clearly view it that way). Take into account that Servants aren't simple tools as the magus would like to see them, but individuals with their own feelings and goals.

From this point of view, Tohsaka broke the basics of the agreement by planning to kill Gilgamesh therefore completely dismissing his wish. Not to mention his life. Honestly, what would you think of a guy you are cooperating with if you knew he plans to force you to commit suicide?

Clearly the one betrayed here was Gilgamesh and in this case he simply chose the easiest way to ensure his own survival. It's hard to blame him for not wanting to get killed because of a selfish wish of his Master.

And yes, I know why the Grail War was created in the first place, but it still doesn't justify any magus, who attemps to reach Akasha, unless Servant doesn't mind dying for their wish.

Jun 4, 2012 8:00 AM

#193

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Apr 2012

3643

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

Gilgamesh is a good guy unless you are a mongrel to him.
refer to

He will act kingly if he considers you as a worthy subject. Even though Tokiomi bored the hell out of him Gilgamesh still put up with his commands until he learns about Tokiomi's plan for betrayal. At that point Tokiomi becomes a disloyal mongrel so Gilgamesh had no obligations to continue to be benevolent.
On the other hand, Gilgamesh really likes Kirei. And he shows that with his actions pretty much throughout the series. In his speech with Kirei Gilgamesh was talking informally but never rude. And just from this episode he allows Kirei to use a command spell to order him. Also at the end of the series

The only reason he may seem like an asshole to some people is because heroic spirits are summoned from the time of their prime which unfortunately for him was after Enkidu's death. So I'd imagine Gilgamesh to be more pissed off about everything than normal.

BloodRequiemJun 4, 2012 8:08 AM

As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.

Jun 4, 2012 9:01 AM

#194

Ragna92

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Aug 2010

3861

Marzan said:

Leon-Gun said:

Marzan said:
Strangely enough, the homunculus Irisviel is more human than many of the other characters in this series. It was sad to see her go, but I get a feeling that we might see some more of her in spirit form or the like.

The level of distrust between Saber and Kiritsugu is not going to help their chances in this fight.

I cannot believe that so many people would root for Gilgamesh over Rider for the next fight. Rider is an awesome character. A over the top funny guy, true leader and a comrade, the kind of guy who wouldn't ask his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Whereas Gilgamesh is a backstabbing sociopath who wants everyone to lick his boots. I don't get it. I suppose that some people just like their bishounen villains with their generic character designs better than an ugly looking fella like Rider.

Actually,hate Gil as much as you like, but he didn't do any backstabbing that wasn't done to him first. While yeah, he was pretty inclined to leaving his Master due to the several times Tokiomi went against Archer's own wishes he actually made Kirei show him an actual act of betrayal from Tokiomi before jumping ship. Gil had no obligation to remain bound to a "subject" who was plotting to kill him.

Who said I hate Gilgamesh? I just think he's an inferior character to Rider in everyway and it surprises me that people prefer him. That is all.

And I don't agree with your view that Tohsaka betrayed Gilgamesh. Tohsaka was his master, not the other way around.

This I disagree with. They are both two different types of character, so it doesn't make sense to say one is inferior to the other. Anyways they are both my favorites in Zero. They both acknowledge each other, which is why I'm glad that these 2 are going to face off. I don't know who to root for but I'd be satisfied if either one won.

Jun 4, 2012 9:30 AM

#195

LunarMoon

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Jul 2007

155

Meruru said:

DraconisMarch said:
Well, it's official: fuck Kirei. Seriously. Worthless piece of shit excuse for a human being. And you should feel bad.

..character that is loved by both Nasu and Urobuchi, and one of main reasons why Fate/zero was written in the first place.
"Official", huh?

Kirei is a clinical psychopath who is neurobiologically incapable of love and being that he's a villain, it's expected that the audience would love to hate him. While Nasu and Urobuchi may like him as a character, I seriously doubt that they would like him as a person or approve of any of his actions. Really, Iri and anyone else in the story with a moral compass would agree with Drac. Interestingly enough, Kirei is probably the only human being that she has ever hated.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!

Jun 4, 2012 10:15 AM

#196

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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Aug 2009

20056

Meruru said:

LunarMoon said:

Kirei is a clinical psychopath who is neurobiologically incapable of love and being that he's a villain, it's expected that the audience would love to hate him. While Nasu and Urobuchi may like him as a character, I seriously doubt that they would like him as a person or approve of any of his actions. Really, Iri and anyone else in the story with a moral compass would agree with Drac. Interestingly enough, Kirei is probably the only human being that she has ever hated.

I realize that. Maybe I'm taking the word "official" too literally.
Though I find it hard for myself to consider him worthless among the all Fate characters. It's not like you're obliged to hate some character because he's an evil bastard. I mean, even Shirou likes him, lol.
Well, considering how ufotable left out some points of the novel that made Kirei interesting and even sympathetic to a degree, I guess it's only normal that anime viewers strongly dislike him.

The only thing that surprises me,

What is weird is that people like or hate a char without looking into him.And there is a difference in liking/hating a character and finding him interesting.
Examples:Gil and Kirei both great characters that I hate.
Kiritsugu somewhat great that I feel sorry about him,neither love him or hate him.
Rider interesting but I dont reallly care about him.
Ryunusuke great and interesting villain that I absolutely hate.
Zouken:Even if he was like Kiritsugu when he was younger I really hate his guts.
Tokiomi:Most uninteresting char in FZ and I have said more than enough times how i feel about him.

Jun 4, 2012 10:39 AM

#197

Offline

Apr 2012

3643

Meruru said:

LunarMoon said:

Kirei is a clinical psychopath who is neurobiologically incapable of love and being that he's a villain, it's expected that the audience would love to hate him. While Nasu and Urobuchi may like him as a character, I seriously doubt that they would like him as a person or approve of any of his actions. Really, Iri and anyone else in the story with a moral compass would agree with Drac. Interestingly enough, Kirei is probably the only human being that she has ever hated.

I realize that. Maybe I'm taking the word "official" too literally.
Though I find it hard for myself to consider him worthless among the all Fate characters. It's not like you're obliged to hate some character because he's an evil bastard. I mean, even Shirou likes him, lol.
Well, considering how ufotable left out some points of the novel that made Kirei interesting and even sympathetic to a degree, I guess it's only normal that anime viewers strongly dislike him.

The only thing that surprises me,

Because Kiritsugu appeals to shounen fanatics with his saving the world superhero shenanigans.
And ufotable really did leave out a LOT of Kirei's characterization.
I mean for god's sakes Kirei is supposed to be a second protagonist if not the protagonist of F/Z.

As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.

Jun 4, 2012 11:07 AM

#198

Trenerka

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Mar 2009

100

BloodRequiem said:
And ufotable really did leave out a LOT of Kirei's characterization.
I mean for god's sakes Kirei is supposed to be a second protagonist if not the protagonist of F/Z.

*insert standard mantra about the complete Box edition here*

Jun 4, 2012 12:29 PM

#199

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Dec 2007

4845

Trenerka said:

BloodRequiem said:
And ufotable really did leave out a LOT of Kirei's characterization.
I mean for god's sakes Kirei is supposed to be a second protagonist if not the protagonist of F/Z.

*insert standard mantra about the complete Box edition here*

Nah, even with extra scenes they'll still have to leave some out, because they need to leave some of Kiri's. SO it's a bit of counterbalance between Kirei and Kiritsugu extra scenes I bet. The light novels were just that big. I imagine a lot of the details may just make it into the new manga Young Ace magazaine is serializing instead. Such is the sad reality of anime, you can't fit it all.

Jun 4, 2012 12:36 PM

#200