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Apr 29, 2012 5:42 PM
#251
I didn't really understand why Kirei changed so fast ? I mean ok he has his inner struggle and seems busy finding a goal in life but why would he become an evil bastard with the creepy smile and everything all of a sudden ? That doesn't really fit with his behavior during the rest of the show, unless I missed something... |
Apr 29, 2012 5:43 PM
#252
Yes, ataraxial is right, it's in Saber's status page. I think Nasu said her dragon factor is the reason why her Magic Resistance is so high too (well that and Saber class), and thus dragon slaying spells bypass it. Also since I just noticed something said about Berserker, I'm pretty sure the only drawback he has from being Berserker (as opposed to Saber) is that he can't use For Someone's Glory (the fog Noble Phantasm) to it's full potential. Well, that and the huge mana drain. So this hero is the one that's almost completely better as Berserker. Heck, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that Berserker could only keep up with Gilgamesh because of Mad Enhancement. Though I can't find a source for this statement (just that they posted it in Japanese before translating it). As for Kirei, the the anime kind of skipped a lot of his inner conflict, but the gist of it is that Kirei was always evil, but since he was raised as a holy man, he tried his best to distance himself from evil things and didn't even know he was evil. Gilgamesh's discussions with Kirei simply helped him to realize his true nature. |
Apr 29, 2012 5:45 PM
#253
Xenospiral said: I didn't really understand why Kirei changed so fast ? I mean ok he has his inner struggle and seems busy finding a goal in life but why would he become an evil bastard with the creepy smile and everything all of a sudden ? That doesn't really fit with his behavior during the rest of the show, unless I missed something... because they rushed this episode his father served as a kind of beacon that guided him away from his desires (finding pleasure in other people's pain) and once kayneth shot risei, kirei wandered off the pristine path and embraced the true nature of his soul Also since I just noticed something said about Berserker, I'm pretty sure the only drawback he has from being Berserker (as opposed to Saber) is that he can't use For Someone's Glory (the fog Noble Phantasm) to it's full potential. Well, that and the huge mana drain. So this hero is the one that's almost completely better as Berserker. Heck, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that Berserker could only keep up with Gilgamesh because of Mad Enhancement. Though I can't find a source for this statement (just that they posted it in Japanese before translating it). arondight's tanking abilities didnt exist in the novel so he probably lost it due to mad enhancement the reason he survived that initial 16 NP spam is eternal arms mastership and knight of honour acting together |
BloodRequiemApr 29, 2012 5:51 PM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 29, 2012 5:47 PM
#254
Thanks it indeed felt like it was rushed, I guess it would be a good idea to read that part in the novel |
Apr 29, 2012 6:04 PM
#255
@ ataraxial: Oh okay. I just checked the posts again and saw the small change. Weird how I didn't catch that since I usually notice details. BloodRequiem said: sallym613 said: @ TheRealBoyd: I didn't know Saber is weak against dragon slaying weapons. Was this ever mentioned in VN (I haven't gone through Heaven's Feel yet) or was this mentioned in one of Nasu's interviews? its prob in the character materials she was born with the prana core of a dragon hence the name pendragon Oh. Didn't realize the importance behind her surname. Was this made up by Nasu or was this actually part of Arthur's legend? @ TheRealBoyd: Oh that makes a lot more sense why Saber has such a high magic resistance. Well I learned something new today (I should go find the translated status pages/character materials >_>) ataraxial said: sallym613 said: @ ssjokg, ataraxial, BloodRequiem: If you guys dont want to spoil Berserker's true identity, you might want to remove or edit the quoting as well. (Referring to #224, 225, 226 posts) @ insan3soldiern: Lovely avatar btw. (My faith in humanity declines every day.) Uhh...something I said? |
Apr 29, 2012 6:06 PM
#256
TheRealBoyd said: Oh great the Gilgamesh power level debates seep into MAL too huh? A few points that people seem to be missing, then: 1. Gilgamesh IS weaker in Fate/Stay Night. Kirei sucks as a Master, while Tokiomi does not. His stats in F/Z are Strength B, Endurance B, Agility B, Mana A, Luck A, NP EX. While in F/SN Endurance, Agility, and Mana all drop a rank. B/B/B/A/A/EX isn't weak by any means, and this makes him the only non Berserker Servant that doesn't suck at any stat. (compare Saber's D rank Luck and Rider's D Agility in Zero). Later Fate/Zero spoilers: The corruption from the Grail Mud at the end of Fate/Zero also makes his personality even worse, making him more excitable and even harder to keep his cool when angered. It also gives him a physical body, which I've seen mention of that making him weaker, though all I know for sure is that it means he could be killed by non magical weapons now since he was no longer just a spirit. 2. The novels almost flat out state that Berserker would not have been able to repel 32 Noble Phantasms and he was nearing his limit with 16 as it was. Other people already covered the F-15 vs Vimana fight so I'll leave that alone. Also, as it has been said, Gilgamesh is Archer. He's not meant to fight in straight combat on par with, say, Saber. Also, Berserker is the most skilled sword wielding hero PERIOD. He'll win pretty much any fight that's just a one on one sword duel. As a side note, because of Kariya's mana situation, even if Berserker could repel 100 weapons Gilgamesh could just spam him until Kariya is completely drained. 3. As somebody else has said, he's not the only one that relies on his Noble Phantasm. Saber wins exactly 2 fights within Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero without using her Noble Phantasms. And unlike Gilgamesh, she won a few of them with plot hax. 4. Fate/Zero ending spoilers, not relevant to Gilgamesh's power but since somebody asked about him vs Saber: His "fight" with Saber isn't even a fight. She's completely battered both physically and mentally from the Berserker fight, while Gilgamesh is still more or less at full power after beating Rider. All he does is shoot one or two weapons at her as he's proposing before Kiritsugu comes and makes her destroy the Grail 5. F/SN Fate route spoilers, vs Saber: He didn't fight Saber seriously until the very end. Once Saber blocked one Ea blast with Avalon, he got pissed off and went for a full power charge. In taking the time to charge it to full power, he allowed Saber to strike him. Could Avalon have blocked that blast? Probably, but Saber is a special case, because it's Gate of Babylon that can screw her over, not Ea. 6. F/SN UBW route spoilers, vs you know who: The movie portrayed that fight completely wrong. He lost because UBW has the swords ready faster than GoB does. By the time Gilgamesh could retrieve a weapon Shirou was already on top of him and he couldn't even get into a proper defense position, allowing Shirou to break Gilgamesh's original weapons despite his copies being weaker. Not to mention that projection gives you the skill of the original wielder, while Gilgamesh just has to use his own skill. Gilgamesh is NOT a complete retard fighting face to face. He's not on par with a Saber class, but he still knows what he's doing. I don't know why people think he would not lose in two seconds without Gate of Babylon or Ea. And if he just wore his armor, he would've been able to draw Ea, and Enuma Elish would kill Shirou and destroy UBW. Oh, and even after Gilgamesh loses his arm, Shirou admits that Gilgamesh could STILL win if he managed to regain his composure. Not to mention that he's perfectly capable of stopping UBW from happening, but he was amusing himself with Shirou's pathetic attempts up until that point and basically let it happen. 7. F/SN Heaven's Feel spoilers, vs...it should be obvious The Dark Sakura thing wasn't a fight. He impaled her with swords to the point that her guts were falling out, then BEHEADED her before deciding she was dead and walking away. Unknown to him, though, she had already reached the point where she could regenerate such wounds and she ate him before he could even react. Since I don't think we should expect somebody to recover from being headless, I don't think you can blame his arrogance for this loss. It just happened. Also, aside from the fact that the Grail Mud cannot corrupt him into an Alter Servant, the reason she turned him into mana was because he was FIGHTING HIS WAY OUT FROM INSIDE HER. Nasu said himself in an interview that she was scared that he would escape and eating him probably gave Angra Mainyu a "stomachache." tl;dr: Gate of Babylon's huge array of weapons means he can exploit almost any Servants weakness (for example, Saber is weak against dragon slaying weapons), he can win most fights just by mindlessly spamming Gate of Babylon, and Ea is an "I win" button. People have to remember that Gilgamesh never fights weaker Servants. Every time he is against one, they just die in two seconds, like you know who in Fate. All of his fights that last more than a minute are against top tier Servants, and they STILL have trouble beating him. His arrogance is a flaw because he DOES have to try to beat top tier heroes, but without trying he still mops the floor with probably 90% of all Servants. I really hope that didn't sound like fanwank, this is just a pet peeve of mine amongst Type Moon fans. Gilgamesh vs Arcueid, sure, THAT is a debate (that has no answer so if I accidentally started that, fuck me), but against other Servants? Really? 1.i could have posted that but I already posted many spoilers for F/Z even if they were in tags. 2,3.I have nothing to add 4. still,that character WAS the last servant standing. 5,6.Classic Gilgamesh, yeah the movie was bad and " I don't know why people think he would not lose in two seconds without Gate of Babylon or Ea".perhaps you meant "not win"?It's like you ignored what you typed.Or it's time for me to go to bed.... 7.It's been some time since I read the VN. I didnt remember how the "fight" started Gilgamesh isnt my favorite Heroic Spirit but I believe that he is the strongest so Iam glad you posted this Well we didnt put him against fsn caster or assassin.... |
Apr 29, 2012 6:06 PM
#257
sallym613 said: @ ataraxial: Oh okay. I just checked the posts again and saw the small change. Weird how I didn't catch that since I usually notice details. BloodRequiem said: sallym613 said: @ TheRealBoyd: I didn't know Saber is weak against dragon slaying weapons. Was this ever mentioned in VN (I haven't gone through Heaven's Feel yet) or was this mentioned in one of Nasu's interviews? its prob in the character materials she was born with the prana core of a dragon hence the name pendragon Oh. Didn't realize the importance behind her surname. Was this made up by Nasu or was this actually part of Arthur's legend? @ TheRealBoyd: Oh that makes a lot more sense why Saber has such a high magic resistance. Well I learned something new today (I should go find the translated status pages/character materials >_>) ataraxial said: sallym613 said: @ ssjokg, ataraxial, BloodRequiem: If you guys dont want to spoil Berserker's true identity, you might want to remove or edit the quoting as well. (Referring to #224, 225, 226 posts) @ insan3soldiern: Lovely avatar btw. (My faith in humanity declines every day.) Uhh...something I said? iirc in arthurs legend uther had a vision of a dragon when he procreated with his wife and nasu prob based it off that been a couple of years since ive read that |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 29, 2012 6:15 PM
#258
Apr 29, 2012 6:16 PM
#259
ssjokg said: TheRealBoyd said: Oh great the Gilgamesh power level debates seep into MAL too huh? A few points that people seem to be missing, then: 1. Gilgamesh IS weaker in Fate/Stay Night. Kirei sucks as a Master, while Tokiomi does not. His stats in F/Z are Strength B, Endurance B, Agility B, Mana A, Luck A, NP EX. While in F/SN Endurance, Agility, and Mana all drop a rank. B/B/B/A/A/EX isn't weak by any means, and this makes him the only non Berserker Servant that doesn't suck at any stat. (compare Saber's D rank Luck and Rider's D Agility in Zero). Later Fate/Zero spoilers: The corruption from the Grail Mud at the end of Fate/Zero also makes his personality even worse, making him more excitable and even harder to keep his cool when angered. It also gives him a physical body, which I've seen mention of that making him weaker, though all I know for sure is that it means he could be killed by non magical weapons now since he was no longer just a spirit. 2. The novels almost flat out state that Berserker would not have been able to repel 32 Noble Phantasms and he was nearing his limit with 16 as it was. Other people already covered the F-15 vs Vimana fight so I'll leave that alone. Also, as it has been said, Gilgamesh is Archer. He's not meant to fight in straight combat on par with, say, Saber. Also, Berserker is the most skilled sword wielding hero PERIOD. He'll win pretty much any fight that's just a one on one sword duel. As a side note, because of Kariya's mana situation, even if Berserker could repel 100 weapons Gilgamesh could just spam him until Kariya is completely drained. 3. As somebody else has said, he's not the only one that relies on his Noble Phantasm. Saber wins exactly 2 fights within Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero without using her Noble Phantasms. And unlike Gilgamesh, she won a few of them with plot hax. 4. Fate/Zero ending spoilers, not relevant to Gilgamesh's power but since somebody asked about him vs Saber: His "fight" with Saber isn't even a fight. She's completely battered both physically and mentally from the Berserker fight, while Gilgamesh is still more or less at full power after beating Rider. All he does is shoot one or two weapons at her as he's proposing before Kiritsugu comes and makes her destroy the Grail 5. F/SN Fate route spoilers, vs Saber: He didn't fight Saber seriously until the very end. Once Saber blocked one Ea blast with Avalon, he got pissed off and went for a full power charge. In taking the time to charge it to full power, he allowed Saber to strike him. Could Avalon have blocked that blast? Probably, but Saber is a special case, because it's Gate of Babylon that can screw her over, not Ea. 6. F/SN UBW route spoilers, vs you know who: The movie portrayed that fight completely wrong. He lost because UBW has the swords ready faster than GoB does. By the time Gilgamesh could retrieve a weapon Shirou was already on top of him and he couldn't even get into a proper defense position, allowing Shirou to break Gilgamesh's original weapons despite his copies being weaker. Not to mention that projection gives you the skill of the original wielder, while Gilgamesh just has to use his own skill. Gilgamesh is NOT a complete retard fighting face to face. He's not on par with a Saber class, but he still knows what he's doing. I don't know why people think he would not lose in two seconds without Gate of Babylon or Ea. And if he just wore his armor, he would've been able to draw Ea, and Enuma Elish would kill Shirou and destroy UBW. Oh, and even after Gilgamesh loses his arm, Shirou admits that Gilgamesh could STILL win if he managed to regain his composure. Not to mention that he's perfectly capable of stopping UBW from happening, but he was amusing himself with Shirou's pathetic attempts up until that point and basically let it happen. 7. F/SN Heaven's Feel spoilers, vs...it should be obvious The Dark Sakura thing wasn't a fight. He impaled her with swords to the point that her guts were falling out, then BEHEADED her before deciding she was dead and walking away. Unknown to him, though, she had already reached the point where she could regenerate such wounds and she ate him before he could even react. Since I don't think we should expect somebody to recover from being headless, I don't think you can blame his arrogance for this loss. It just happened. Also, aside from the fact that the Grail Mud cannot corrupt him into an Alter Servant, the reason she turned him into mana was because he was FIGHTING HIS WAY OUT FROM INSIDE HER. Nasu said himself in an interview that she was scared that he would escape and eating him probably gave Angra Mainyu a "stomachache." tl;dr: Gate of Babylon's huge array of weapons means he can exploit almost any Servants weakness (for example, Saber is weak against dragon slaying weapons), he can win most fights just by mindlessly spamming Gate of Babylon, and Ea is an "I win" button. People have to remember that Gilgamesh never fights weaker Servants. Every time he is against one, they just die in two seconds, like you know who in Fate. All of his fights that last more than a minute are against top tier Servants, and they STILL have trouble beating him. His arrogance is a flaw because he DOES have to try to beat top tier heroes, but without trying he still mops the floor with probably 90% of all Servants. I really hope that didn't sound like fanwank, this is just a pet peeve of mine amongst Type Moon fans. Gilgamesh vs Arcueid, sure, THAT is a debate (that has no answer so if I accidentally started that, fuck me), but against other Servants? Really? 1.i could have posted that but I already posted many spoilers for F/Z even if they were in tags. 2,3.I have nothing to add 4. still,that character WAS the last servant standing. 5,6.Classic Gilgamesh, yeah the movie was bad and " I don't know why people think he would not lose in two seconds without Gate of Babylon or Ea".perhaps you meant "not win"?It's like you ignored what you typed.Or it's time for me to go to bed.... 7.It's been some time since I read the VN. I didnt remember how the "fight" started Gilgamesh isnt my favorite Heroic Spirit but I believe that he is the strongest so Iam glad you posted this Well we didnt put him against fsn caster or assassin.... Wait you mean Shirou takes the techniques or the status rise to meet the status of the original wielders?If his status rise depending to the weapon he is tracing ,I see why Gil had trouble.I always thought that he was able to use the techniques they had.... |
Apr 29, 2012 6:18 PM
#260
ataraxial said: sallym613 said: Uhh...something I said? Sorry, that whole post was directed at BloodRequiem. He figured it out. Oh okay. Just making sure ^^; (Yeah he finally edited his post.) Considering how much you guys are discussing about who's the strongest servant, I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a poll thread about it by now... |
Apr 29, 2012 6:20 PM
#261
sallym613 said: ataraxial said: sallym613 said: Uhh...something I said? Sorry, that whole post was directed at BloodRequiem. He figured it out. Oh okay. Just making sure ^^; (Yeah he finally edited his post.) Considering how much you guys are discussing about who's the strongest servant, I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a poll thread about it by now... polls usually end up becoming a popularity contest with iskander/saber winning |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 29, 2012 6:25 PM
#262
Apr 29, 2012 6:26 PM
#263
ataraxial said: sallym613 said: I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a poll thread about it by now... I'm considering doing this, although I'm not sure what would be the best way to put in Servants' names. let's do this after the end of Zero.spoiler free of course |
Apr 29, 2012 6:30 PM
#264
ssjokg said: ataraxial said: sallym613 said: I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a poll thread about it by now... I'm considering doing this, although I'm not sure what would be the best way to put in Servants' names. let's do this after the end of Zero.spoiler free of course Darn I already filled out everything... would it hurt to start it now? |
Apr 29, 2012 6:32 PM
#265
ataraxial said: ssjokg said: ataraxial said: sallym613 said: I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a poll thread about it by now... I'm considering doing this, although I'm not sure what would be the best way to put in Servants' names. let's do this after the end of Zero.spoiler free of course Darn I already filled out everything... would it hurt to start it now? No I was just saying but make sure that people will know that there will be spoilers. |
Apr 29, 2012 6:33 PM
#266
ataraxial said: ssjokg said: ataraxial said: sallym613 said: I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a poll thread about it by now... I'm considering doing this, although I'm not sure what would be the best way to put in Servants' names. let's do this after the end of Zero.spoiler free of course Darn I already filled out everything... would it hurt to start it now? Gilgamesh didnt even use 2 of his most important treasures yet and berserker didnt use arondight |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 29, 2012 6:40 PM
#267
Apr 29, 2012 6:44 PM
#268
@ BloodRequiem: Which is quite unfortunate. Though they might change their minds after the end of F/Z *shrugs*. We could also do all of the servants within Fate Universe except there's not enough space options in MAL polls to do that... That would be fun to debate though (if we took into consideration the servants from FSN, F/Z, F/HA, F/A, etc.) @ ataraxial: DO IT! DO IT! Nah jk. I agree with what ssjokg said. It's probably better to gauge all servants' strength after the anime ends. That way people can get into F/Z LN (and FSN VN after that (if they're interested)) and we can have a more interesting debate on this without people raging on us for spoiling everything :P |
Apr 29, 2012 6:45 PM
#269
ssjokg said: Okay given that the other topic was made, hope you don't mind if I answer your questions there to free this topic from the Gilgamesh discussion.-snip- |
Apr 29, 2012 6:51 PM
#270
First episode of the new season was entertaining, the second was fantastic with excalibur, third episode had Lancer kill himself due to a great tactical play by Emiya Kuritsugu, and this episode had Kotomine Kirei kill Tokiomi and receive all of the command spells and the right to train Rin. This series just keeps getting better and moves the plot in just the right ways without being too over the top. 5/5 |
Apr 29, 2012 7:02 PM
#271
Kirei Kotomine is my favourite Fate/Stay Night character after Rin Tohsaka and Saber. The guy is as mysterious as they come and has powerful abilities. I loved the stabbing! Masters are all dropping like flies per episode. I personally can't wait till the battle between Komomine and Emiya. |
Apr 29, 2012 7:14 PM
#272
I found this to be not so entertaining except for when Gilgamesh starts talking and Kirei killing Tokiomi, that was interesting. Seeing a little bit of loli Rin brightened my day a little too. ^^ |
Apr 29, 2012 7:18 PM
#273
Apr 29, 2012 7:47 PM
#274
belatkuro said: So since when did this thread became a TypeMoon powerlevel thread and so blatant with spoilers? Is this MAL or /a/? Sorry, it was half my fault. However, I have diverted it to save this thread. |
Apr 29, 2012 7:54 PM
#275
Nothing really much happened in this episode except for kirei betraying gilgamesh and having him as his boyfri- i mean servant. |
Apr 29, 2012 9:03 PM
#276
Gilver said: Nothing really much happened in this episode except for kirei betraying gilgamesh and having him as his boyfri- i mean servant. The second half of what you said made me lol. I was thinking that the whole time. |
Apr 29, 2012 9:32 PM
#277
ssjokg said: Everything related to the sword (fighting style, special abilities, magical attacks related to it) will be perfectly replicated. His power however remains just as it was, so he actually can literally break his body due to the fact he's passing the limits of his strenght. Or he would but he has plot hax to back him up (his body turns into something "not organic" to ensure it doesn't break and that other thingie you all know well about heals him, plus he actually can pull off some basic body reinforcement to give his body some extra strenght). But that's enough F/SN discussion from me.Wait you mean Shirou takes the techniques or the status rise to meet the status of the original wielders?If his status rise depending to the weapon he is tracing ,I see why Gil had trouble.I always thought that he was able to use the techniques they had.... |
Apr 29, 2012 9:35 PM
#278
Late as ever. Finally made though. Splendid episode it combined MOE and a shocking yet satisfying end for me. I liked a lot the deep conversation at the philosophical level with Kirei and Gilgamesh. My heart ached seeing Irisviel suffer but it was meaningful the conversation she had with Maiya. The car ride was nice to see. Finally all that mattered to me in the following, Glory to GOD for laying punishment to Tokiomi. There is interesting saying that goes “What goes around comes around.” Tokiomi essentially through giving up in Sakura forsake a life and snuffed out its happiness and trust in him. Despite many sayings it does no justice for what Tokiomi did to Sakura. As a reference post: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=423431&show=80 Or did anyone forget that one? Surely there is nothing that can pay the suffering of that than death itself. As such Tokiomi got the fist of God and justice upon him. At the worst time of trust. Just like Sakura trusted him and at the worst time got sexually, physically and mentally abused by the worms having instead having been betrayed by that trust in him. Sakura never asked for any of this and as such his death got my smile all the time during it while thinking of Sakura. And so Amen to that one. Other than that, Rin in the following, OMG my goes BOOM! Then I use my replacement. As if S1 was not enough once again it got me good in terms of Rin’s MOE. Kirei's father death was well shown and was shocking TBH. That being said I enjoyed this episode and its emotions along with its development and shall leave it that. However to compensate for my lateness I have betrayed a strong interesting BTW part. BTW Picture Dumb and Image Stitches have been done in the BLOG: http://ecchiking99.blogspot.ca/2012/04/fate-zero-episode-4-image-dump-and.html Lot of interesting Saber stuff. GIFs are left in the club: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=435331 Some interesting ones of Rin. Beginning and End arts in the spoiler You should also know there is a new GIF of Facepalm of Kirei in the spoiler |
Yumekichi11Apr 29, 2012 10:38 PM
Apr 29, 2012 9:56 PM
#279
I understand why someone could dislike Tokiomi, but I definitely don't agree that he deserved to die the way he did. I actually think that he was a pretty decent guy and a good father to Rin at the very least. No, I think the problem that people have with him is that they just can't understand that he has a different way of living his life as a mage and has a different sort of moral code. Of course, it gets tricky when you throw Sakura into the mix. But, I'm of the opinion that, while he probably knew the type of magic the Matou's use, I don't think he knew to what lengths they would go to. Also, he was very much ingrained in the way of life he was probably raised into as a mage and wholeheartedly believed in that path. Much like Kiritsugu, I don't find him to be a likable character but I don't dislike him either. I think Tokiomi is just an example of someone stuck in a very, very outdated way of thinking, a way of life that even his much more open minded daughter Rin had trouble coming to terms with. I hope this made sense, just my jumbled up thoughts about a character I think is very hard to understand and near impossible for most of us to relate to. |
"Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Apr 29, 2012 10:19 PM
#280
I like Tokiomi. The guy is not boring, he's just the classic type of mage and I like that feel about him. He's not a bad father too, did people miss out all those scenes with Rin or something, and with Sakura, he has his reason (reasonable enough for me). Too bad he got the worst luck though, who needs enemy when you have servant like Gil? |
Apr 29, 2012 10:39 PM
#281
I was really curious to see how the reaction to this episode would go, given how unpopular Tokiomi had become after giving Sakura to Zouken and torching Kariya a few episodes back. It's pretty much as I expected, actually, though I can't say that I've ever been particularly fond of Tokiomi, myself. I don't believe that he deserved to die in the fashion that he did, and I did have some sympathy for Tokiomi, given the level to which he trusted and admired Kotomine. He had praised him as a student, made him the godfather to his child, and all but inducted him into his family, only to literally be stabbed in the back. So while the majority of my sympathy was aimed at Rin, given the level to which she obviously loved him and due to the identity of her new guardian, Tokiomi did obtain a portion of it. That said, I really can't excuse his actions, if his different cultural perspective, as a magus, is his only excuse. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Apr 29, 2012 10:41 PM
#282
insan3soldiern said: As much as I agree with you, I can not let this be an excuse of not being able to find out more about Sakura's condition or at least have a means to communicate with her. Instead to abandon the kid to a clan whom you do not know much about much less trust their ways are safe only to mistake, is not caring nor I think it's forgiveable to do so.I understand why someone could dislike Tokiomi, but I definitely don't agree that he deserved to die the way he did. I actually think that he was a pretty decent guy and a good father to Rin at the very least. No, I think the problem that people have with him is that they just can't understand that he has a different way of living his life as a mage and has a different sort of moral code. Of course, it gets tricky when you throw Sakura into the mix. But, I'm of the opinion that, while he probably knew the type of magic the Matou's use, I don't think he knew to what lengths they would go to. Also, he was very much ingrained in the way of life he was probably raised into as a mage and wholeheartedly believed in that path. Much like Kiritsugu, I don't find him to be a likable character but I don't dislike him either. I think Tokiomi is just an example of someone stuck in a very, very outdated way of thinking, a way of life that even his much more open minded daughter Rin had trouble coming to terms with. Therefore I cannot accept the value of your argument VS that suffering that in words comes of Sakura's fate. For that outweighs more. |
Apr 29, 2012 11:25 PM
#283
Yumekichi11 said: insan3soldiern said: As much as I agree with you, I can not let this be an excuse of not being able to find out more about Sakura's condition or at least have a means to communicate with her. Instead to abandon the kid to a clan whom you do not know much about much less trust their ways are safe only to mistake, is not caring nor I think it's forgiveable to do so.I understand why someone could dislike Tokiomi, but I definitely don't agree that he deserved to die the way he did. I actually think that he was a pretty decent guy and a good father to Rin at the very least. No, I think the problem that people have with him is that they just can't understand that he has a different way of living his life as a mage and has a different sort of moral code. Of course, it gets tricky when you throw Sakura into the mix. But, I'm of the opinion that, while he probably knew the type of magic the Matou's use, I don't think he knew to what lengths they would go to. Also, he was very much ingrained in the way of life he was probably raised into as a mage and wholeheartedly believed in that path. Much like Kiritsugu, I don't find him to be a likable character but I don't dislike him either. I think Tokiomi is just an example of someone stuck in a very, very outdated way of thinking, a way of life that even his much more open minded daughter Rin had trouble coming to terms with. Therefore I cannot accept the value of your argument VS that suffering that in words comes of Sakura's fate. For that outweighs more. it was either the matous (ancient allies) or sealing designation by the association plus tokiomi didnt know about the rape/abuse |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 29, 2012 11:38 PM
#284
BloodRequiem said: Still can go back to "Finding out" about it. Just after that first time in S1 would have made all the difference in taking her out from there. Instead nothing was done and it got worse. Yumekichi11 said: insan3soldiern said: As much as I agree with you, I can not let this be an excuse of not being able to find out more about Sakura's condition or at least have a means to communicate with her. Instead to abandon the kid to a clan whom you do not know much about much less trust their ways are safe only to mistake, is not caring nor I think it's forgiveable to do so.I understand why someone could dislike Tokiomi, but I definitely don't agree that he deserved to die the way he did. I actually think that he was a pretty decent guy and a good father to Rin at the very least. No, I think the problem that people have with him is that they just can't understand that he has a different way of living his life as a mage and has a different sort of moral code. Of course, it gets tricky when you throw Sakura into the mix. But, I'm of the opinion that, while he probably knew the type of magic the Matou's use, I don't think he knew to what lengths they would go to. Also, he was very much ingrained in the way of life he was probably raised into as a mage and wholeheartedly believed in that path. Much like Kiritsugu, I don't find him to be a likable character but I don't dislike him either. I think Tokiomi is just an example of someone stuck in a very, very outdated way of thinking, a way of life that even his much more open minded daughter Rin had trouble coming to terms with. Therefore I cannot accept the value of your argument VS that suffering that in words comes of Sakura's fate. For that outweighs more. it was either the matous (ancient allies) or sealing designation by the association plus tokiomi didnt know about the rape/abuse Therefore Tokiomi exhibited ignorance on that part of my referred post of his philosophy, which goes back again in short to fail being too conservative. A backfire of traditions so to speak. |
Apr 29, 2012 11:41 PM
#285
This episode sealed the deal, this TV series will be the best of the year, nothing will top it. Ufotable once again you have stunned me. |
Apr 30, 2012 12:37 AM
#286
Xenospiral said: I didn't really understand why Kirei changed so fast ? I mean ok he has his inner struggle and seems busy finding a goal in life but why would he become an evil bastard with the creepy smile and everything all of a sudden ? That doesn't really fit with his behavior during the rest of the show, unless I missed something... You didn't really miss anything. It's just, the pacing in this episode was a little...off, as most have said already. The change in Kirei, on the other hand, has been slowly and steadily boiling inside of him since the first season. Yumekichi11 said: You should also know there is a new GIF of Facepalm of Kirei in the spoilera new GIF of facepalming has come upon us. Heh. Thanks for that. |
Apr 30, 2012 12:39 AM
#287
BloodRequiem said: Actually there was no such an implication in any of the material as far as I saw. Sealing Designations are issued against extremely rare magi or dangerous ones (some of them being Dead Apostles)...Yumekichi11 said: insan3soldiern said: As much as I agree with you, I can not let this be an excuse of not being able to find out more about Sakura's condition or at least have a means to communicate with her. Instead to abandon the kid to a clan whom you do not know much about much less trust their ways are safe only to mistake, is not caring nor I think it's forgiveable to do so.I understand why someone could dislike Tokiomi, but I definitely don't agree that he deserved to die the way he did. I actually think that he was a pretty decent guy and a good father to Rin at the very least. No, I think the problem that people have with him is that they just can't understand that he has a different way of living his life as a mage and has a different sort of moral code. Of course, it gets tricky when you throw Sakura into the mix. But, I'm of the opinion that, while he probably knew the type of magic the Matou's use, I don't think he knew to what lengths they would go to. Also, he was very much ingrained in the way of life he was probably raised into as a mage and wholeheartedly believed in that path. Much like Kiritsugu, I don't find him to be a likable character but I don't dislike him either. I think Tokiomi is just an example of someone stuck in a very, very outdated way of thinking, a way of life that even his much more open minded daughter Rin had trouble coming to terms with. Therefore I cannot accept the value of your argument VS that suffering that in words comes of Sakura's fate. For that outweighs more. it was either the matous (ancient allies) or sealing designation by the association plus tokiomi didnt know about the rape/abuse ...Emiya Kiritsugu's father is a good example of one. His experiments were not just dangerous as they delved into the realm of True Ancestors and Dead Apostles, he actually had some dangerous research aready inscribed in his Crest, which is why they gave him the Sealing Designation and only allowed Kiritsugu to keep the worthless parts of the Emiya Crest. As far as I remember Tokiomi just didn't want to waste either Sakura or Rin's talents. It is specifically stated that Sakura is on the very same potential level of Rin but their element is just too different. Rin is an overpowered but conventional mage who can wield all the natural elements. Sakura's element however just doesn't match with the Tokiomi family's magecraft. But since Sakura was still a potentially excellent magus he selected RIn as his heir and instead of destroying all chances for Sakura's future in magic he sent her to be the heir of a different house. On paper it was the best move, Matou magecraft deals with spirits and curses and that's the perfect complement for the Imaginary Element. Tokiomi apparently was just too stupid to actually bother investigating Zouken further, or perhaps he thought the risk was just part of being a mage and that whatever happenned it was just part of it. BTW, for those who were a little thrown off by Kirei's change or perhaps think Kirei was manipulated entirely by Gilgamesh...he wasn't. WHile gen changed things, the main deal remained the same and that includes Kirei's characterization. Kotomine Kirei, as Fate/Stay Night says, is a man who spent his whole life looking for himself because the self he had found was too hideous for him to accept. He actually even trained as an Executor once, which some might not know are actually the "killers" of The Church (Tsukihime players are more acquainted with Executors). There's a very poignant and easily missed statement spoken by Risei which mentions that "this (the Holy Grail War) might help him after the death of his wife". This is actually something only a Fate/Stay Night player will catch or pay attention to, because it's revealed by Kirei himself that he felt regret about her death, the regret of not being the one to end her life. So yeah, he's known all along he was twisted, he just didn't want to accept it, so he kept drifting from place to place without finding a "morally right" path because no morally right path can satisfy him. |
Leon-GunApr 30, 2012 12:51 AM
Apr 30, 2012 12:45 AM
#288
Leon-Gun said: BloodRequiem said: Actually there was no such an implication in any of the material as far as I saw. Sealing Designations are issued against extremely rare magi or dangerous ones (some of them being Dead Apostles)...Yumekichi11 said: insan3soldiern said: As much as I agree with you, I can not let this be an excuse of not being able to find out more about Sakura's condition or at least have a means to communicate with her. Instead to abandon the kid to a clan whom you do not know much about much less trust their ways are safe only to mistake, is not caring nor I think it's forgiveable to do so.I understand why someone could dislike Tokiomi, but I definitely don't agree that he deserved to die the way he did. I actually think that he was a pretty decent guy and a good father to Rin at the very least. No, I think the problem that people have with him is that they just can't understand that he has a different way of living his life as a mage and has a different sort of moral code. Of course, it gets tricky when you throw Sakura into the mix. But, I'm of the opinion that, while he probably knew the type of magic the Matou's use, I don't think he knew to what lengths they would go to. Also, he was very much ingrained in the way of life he was probably raised into as a mage and wholeheartedly believed in that path. Much like Kiritsugu, I don't find him to be a likable character but I don't dislike him either. I think Tokiomi is just an example of someone stuck in a very, very outdated way of thinking, a way of life that even his much more open minded daughter Rin had trouble coming to terms with. Therefore I cannot accept the value of your argument VS that suffering that in words comes of Sakura's fate. For that outweighs more. it was either the matous (ancient allies) or sealing designation by the association plus tokiomi didnt know about the rape/abuse ...Emiya Kiritsugu's father is a good example of one. His experiments were not just dangerous as they delved into the realm of True Ancestors and Dead Apostles, he actually had some dangerous research aready inscribed in his Crest, which is why they gave him the Sealing Designation and only allowed Kiritsugu to keep the worthless parts of the Emiya Crest. As far as I remember Tokiomi just didn't want to waste either Sakura or Rin's talents. It is specifically stated that Sakura is on the very same potential level of Rin but their element is just too different. Rin is an overpowered but conventional mage who can wield all the natural elements. Sakura's element however just doesn't match with the Tokiomi family's magecraft. But since Sakura was still a potentially excellent magus he selected RIn as his heir and instead of destroying all chances for Sakura's future in magic he sent her to be the heir of a different house. On paper it was the best move, Matou magecraft deals with spirits and curses and that's the perfect complement for the Imaginary Element. Tokiomi apparently was just too stupid to actually bother investigating Zouken further, or perhaps he thought the risk was just part of being a mage and that whatever happenned it was just part of it. those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’. from tokiomi's monologue |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 30, 2012 12:55 AM
#289
BloodRequiem said: That is an unfortunate change in Gen's LN honestly, mostly because there's nothing to "save" of a mage that's not even properly trained. They'd glady put a Sealing Designation on Shirou due to his Reality Marble however, and former Sakura for sure. But how she was before this all started? Sounds like he just made up a tale in his head to feel better about it.those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’. from tokiomi's monologue |
Apr 30, 2012 2:17 AM
#290
Kotomine's expressions from the start when he found out about his dad to the end with his betrayal were priceless... |
Apr 30, 2012 2:32 AM
#291
Leon-Gun said: BloodRequiem said: That is an unfortunate change in Gen's LN honestly, mostly because there's nothing to "save" of a mage that's not even properly trained. They'd glady put a Sealing Designation on Shirou due to his Reality Marble however, and former Sakura for sure. But how she was before this all started? Sounds like he just made up a tale in his head to feel better about it.those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’. from tokiomi's monologue ^This.And lets not forget that after everything tha happened in FSN(mostly HF)the Mages Association barely did anything.If they cared so much they would have "taken care" of Sakura,Rin,Rider(As a Servant still in this world) and possibly even Shirou.Instead Rin become Zelretch's student,and the rest were left alone...Not so bad right? Zelretch did have the charges against her nullified but it was only her being in trouble and mostly because of the war not her powers.. |
ssjokgApr 30, 2012 5:08 AM
Apr 30, 2012 3:03 AM
#292
This episode is very good!!! I await the next episode!!!I love Kiritsugu very much~! |
Apr 30, 2012 5:04 AM
#293
ssjokg said: What Zelretch mainly involved himself in was because...Leon-Gun said: BloodRequiem said: That is an unfortunate change in Gen's LN honestly, mostly because there's nothing to "save" of a mage that's not even properly trained. They'd glady put a Sealing Designation on Shirou due to his Reality Marble however, and former Sakura for sure. But how she was before this all started? Sounds like he just made up a tale in his head to feel better about it.those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’. from tokiomi's monologue ^This.And lets not forget that after everything tha happened in FSN(mostly HF)the Mages Association barely did anything.If they cared so much they would have "taken care" of... ... Sakura,Rin,Rider(As a Servant still in this world) and possibly even Shirou.Instead Rin become Zelretch's student,and the rest were left alone...Not so bad right? Zelretch did have the charges against her nullified but it was only her being in trouble and mostly because of the war not her powers. ...Sakura had temporarely become a fully working Holy Grail aka Third Magic, had vast amounts of Mana reserves and knowledge beyond the grasp of most mortal magi (I say mortal because she can't really stand beside the Dead Apostle magi), and with that vast pool of mana she had a fully active and highly ranked Heroic Spirit. Much like UBW would be enough reason to earn Shirou Sealing Designation, those three combined are pretty good reasons to Seal her too. Or even more considering Sakura almost managed to do Third Magic, something no other magus had done since the EInzberns did 1000 years before F/SN. Zelretch just made sure everything remained hush hush because he himself had his share of blame in the Holy Grail Wars and since the Church didn't want Kotomine Kirei's involvement very publiziced they also kept it hush-hush. Young Sakura by herself and without even a piece of the Tohsaka Family Crest would be as good to them as any other mage, even with her Imaginary Element. A serious derp in both Gen and Nasu's side (or maybe Nasu just decided to let Gen go ahead since it can easily be explained as Tokiomi being too cautious or coming up with an excuse for himself). |
Apr 30, 2012 5:22 AM
#294
BloodRequiem said: it was either the matous (ancient allies) or sealing designation by the association plus tokiomi didnt know about the rape/abuse Ignorantia juris non excusat - Ignorance is no excuse. Even the deal that Zouken presented is questionable. Rin has well over twice as many magic circuits as the average magus, and according to Tokiomi, Sakura was born with a comparable level of talent. You’re telling me that no magi, throughout the entire magical world, would be interested in adopting such a high quality heir? Kiritsugu may have been unorthodox in other ways, but I find it difficult to believe that him, and Zouken, were the only decent magi with any interest in adoption. Heck, Kariya, as incompetent a magi as he is, would have been a far better and more willing guardian of Sakura, than Zouken was. I’m not sure what the Association’s laws are concerning this, but as a member of a respectable magus family, he could at least be counted on to maintain the masquerade. Sakura’s potential would have been squandered, and Tokiomi may have a personal grudge against him, but at least he could dig up information on the guy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Apr 30, 2012 5:29 AM
#295
The deed is finally done, and the contract sealed. Tokiomi, the third Master to fall, dies at the hands of his esteemed "student". In a way, Tokiomi had this coming to him for all that plotting from behind the shadows. If he did not collaborate with Kirei in the first place, he would not have died like this (of course that doesn't prevent him from dying sooner or later due to other causes). I see Kirei has also taken for himself all the extra Command Spells his father had. Having so many would be a good advantage, though I also wonder what happened to those that he already possessed. I wonder how Kariya will take the news of his archenemy's death at the hands of someone else, if he even gets word of it. He lives only for revenge on Tokiomi and to see Sakura free from his own hated family. Also, Saber gets a motorcycle. Somehow, the notion of knights in modern clothing and riding a motorcycle sounds so appealing. |
Apr 30, 2012 5:40 AM
#296
SayakaMagica said: I wonder how Kariya will take the news of his archenemy's death at the hands of someone else, if he even gets word of it. He lives only for revenge on Tokiomi and to see Sakura free from his own hated family You will have a chance to see that later.And it is way worse than you think it will be... |
Apr 30, 2012 6:15 AM
#297
ssjokg said: SayakaMagica said: I wonder how Kariya will take the news of his archenemy's death at the hands of someone else, if he even gets word of it. He lives only for revenge on Tokiomi and to see Sakura free from his own hated family You will have a chance to see that later.And it is way worse than you think it will be... I just hope that all his negative energy of hatred won't be directed into a tragic path. who am I kidding, this is Urobuchi we are talking about here. Murphy's Law is his bread and butter. |
Apr 30, 2012 6:34 AM
#298
jeroz said: ssjokg said: SayakaMagica said: I wonder how Kariya will take the news of his archenemy's death at the hands of someone else, if he even gets word of it. He lives only for revenge on Tokiomi and to see Sakura free from his own hated family You will have a chance to see that later.And it is way worse than you think it will be... I just hope that all his negative energy of hatred won't be directed into a tragic path. who am I kidding, this is Urobuchi we are talking about here. Murphy's Law is his bread and butter. well lets just say that everyone will be more shocked from what will happen when Kariya finds out about Tokiomi's death than they were when Team Lancer died... |
Apr 30, 2012 7:56 AM
#299
ssjokg said: jeroz said: ssjokg said: SayakaMagica said: I wonder how Kariya will take the news of his archenemy's death at the hands of someone else, if he even gets word of it. He lives only for revenge on Tokiomi and to see Sakura free from his own hated family You will have a chance to see that later.And it is way worse than you think it will be... I just hope that all his negative energy of hatred won't be directed into a tragic path. who am I kidding, this is Urobuchi we are talking about here. Murphy's Law is his bread and butter. well lets just say that everyone will be more shocked from what will happen when Kariya finds out about Tokiomi's death than they were when Team Lancer died... anyone notice how kariya changed since the beginning of the war? started with hold on sakura now is tokiomi and zouken i will kill you both |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 30, 2012 8:17 AM
#300
BloodRequiem said: anyone notice how kariya changed since the beginning of the war? started with hold on sakura now is tokiomi and zouken i will kill you both Well, worms eating inside your body will drive anyone crazy till they out of their minds. It's quite a pity, because if he was sane he might able to order Berserker to kill other servants that are weaker than Gilgamesh. But no, he had to be obsess to defeat Tokiomi (while Berserker is obsessed with Saber. Hah!) |
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