Attack on Titan
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Dec 15, 2:42 AM
#1
| I've just finished a rewatch of the series for the 3rd time. I've watched it in both sub and dub if that matters to anyone. I have a couple small gripes with some of the shows narrative just because I don't feel like they were thoroughly explained. I'm not referring to major plot points that encourage you to fill in the blanks based on previous context but just some very minor things that I felt could have used a little more fleshing out. That being said, as a whole, the show is an easy 9.6/10 for me. My question is as the title says. I know many people dislike the ending for a number of reasons whether that is the lack of a happy ending, the perception that certain characters acted differently towards the end, or the fact the whole thing was potentially "pointless". I've also heard people who disliked season 4 as a whole because it was quite different to earlier seasons. To be clear, these are just things I've heard people say in discussion or what I've seen in other threads. I will say I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand. The story and character motivations definitely become clearer and easier to understand on additional watches. Isayama does a very good job tying most things together and I've noticed many explanations I've read of "plot holes" are simply things some people misinterpreted or didn't understand correctly. All that being said, I would love to know reasons why you did or did not enjoy the ending. I love discussing this show and I'm very open to other peoples opinions regarding it, even if they differ from my own. Please keep the discussion civil and if your reply isn't intended to be constructive, perhaps just pass by this thread. |
Dec 15, 3:04 AM
#2
| The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept. - If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character. - The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts. - About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier. |
Dec 15, 3:11 AM
#3
| I feel like the ending was too… how do I say this, kind of not what I signed up for. I remember when I was convinced to start watching the show, it was pitched to me as a gritty action thing where the protagonist was killed off early. And I genuinely regard Season 1 as one of the greatest seasons of television ever made. But as time went on and the mythology kept going on, I feel like the one bright light at the end of the tunnel was hoping Eren and Mikasa would end up together |
Dec 15, 3:13 AM
#4
ktg said: The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept. - If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character. - The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts. - About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier. from me, i think if eren purpose is to solely save his friends, wouldn't it make so much sense to just kill everyone else? cuz leaving 20% behind is already a threat to his friends. also to me, its doesn't make sense if the theme is conflict never end, why does eren, again not just kill everyone else? anyone wants to explain? |
Dec 15, 4:26 AM
#5
ktg said: The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept. - If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character. - The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts. - About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier. There's no plot holes in the time travel because there's no time travel at all. The other things you mentioned aren't plot holes, they're just things you don't like. |
Dec 15, 4:31 AM
#6
ahan0306 said: ktg said: The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept. - If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character. - The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts. - About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier. from me, i think if eren purpose is to solely save his friends, wouldn't it make so much sense to just kill everyone else? cuz leaving 20% behind is already a threat to his friends. also to me, its doesn't make sense if the theme is conflict never end, why does eren, again not just kill everyone else? anyone wants to explain? because then the conflict wouldve ended? |
Dec 15, 4:40 AM
#7
Reply to ktg
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
| @ktg I'm curious to know specifically what you consider to be the main plot holes? And what actions of Zekes you consider stupid? I ask because I feel like I have pretty good rebuttals to all those reasons and I just wanted to confirm what you were actually referring too in case I discuss something you aren't talking about. The "time travel" thing is one I am most interested in since I see it mentioned a lot when there is in fact, no time travel in the show. As for the "reset", that was not the goal and to my knowledge this wasn't stated anywhere in the narrative (anime watcher only so if it's in the manga I wouldn't know). The point was just to allow Paradis the TIME to catch up technologically. Even if humanity outside doesn't have to reinvent things, 80% of the planet was still destroyed. They practically need to re-establish society, infrastructure and a functioning Government outside Paradis before they can even think about rebuilding technology for war. You also need to take into consideration who actually died. If the majority of scientists or bright minds all died, it'll take longer to rebuild. In all likelihood, the remains of humanity were not just a bunch of super smart architects and scientists. Not to mention 80% of the world was crushed and that includes resources such as books with info on how to even learn or understand technology to begin with. The Earth was also physically flattened and therefore it will not be as easy to gather materials as it used to be. It takes years to get the Government to fill in a pothole in my country let alone reestablish a functioning society and all their technology from scratch. My point is that it absolutely does buy them time to catch up. The only reason it isn't possible to visualise in the real world is because we can't comprehend the scale of physically destroying 80% of the world AND its people. Paradis are also not starting from scratch. Due to their interaction with the outside world and help from other nations, post time skip they already have a "flying boat". The Rumbling no doubt bought them decades as in evident by the ending sequence so I don't see how it would be so far-fetched to believe they could catch up technologically in that time. Sorry if it was a long reply. I have just thought about it alot because the answers I get are often "this isn't possible" or "that doesn't make sense" but noone ever explains WHY they think that. |
DigitalParadoxDec 15, 4:46 AM
Dec 15, 4:43 AM
#8
Reply to ajw215799
I feel like the ending was too… how do I say this, kind of not what I signed up for. I remember when I was convinced to start watching the show, it was pitched to me as a gritty action thing where the protagonist was killed off early. And I genuinely regard Season 1 as one of the greatest seasons of television ever made. But as time went on and the mythology kept going on, I feel like the one bright light at the end of the tunnel was hoping Eren and Mikasa would end up together
| @ajw215799 I can 100% get this. The ending being very different from the beginning of the show and not being what you signed up for is probably the reason I understand the most for disliking it. |
Dec 15, 4:44 AM
#9
ahan0306 said: ktg said: The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept. - If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character. - The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts. - About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier. from me, i think if eren purpose is to solely save his friends, wouldn't it make so much sense to just kill everyone else? cuz leaving 20% behind is already a threat to his friends. also to me, its doesn't make sense if the theme is conflict never end, why does eren, again not just kill everyone else? anyone wants to explain? Leaving 20% of the population alive wouldn't be an immediate risk, as the world would be too damaged and would focus on its reconstruction. That was the original plan for the Survey Corps and the Azumabito (the 50-year plan). Eren did far more than the mini-Rumbling that was planned, so logically, that should give them more time. It's true that "as long as humans exist, there will be wars" but if he had achieved 100% he would have had to kill the families of Falco, Reiner, and the other warriors. I think he wanted to avoid that since he asked them to live happily would have been difficult without their families. |
Dec 15, 5:13 AM
#11
Reply to WilliamMinerva20
ahan0306 said:
from me, i think if eren purpose is to solely save his friends, wouldn't it make so much sense to just kill everyone else? cuz leaving 20% behind is already a threat to his friends. also to me, its doesn't make sense if the theme is conflict never end, why does eren, again not just kill everyone else? anyone wants to explain?
ktg said:
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
from me, i think if eren purpose is to solely save his friends, wouldn't it make so much sense to just kill everyone else? cuz leaving 20% behind is already a threat to his friends. also to me, its doesn't make sense if the theme is conflict never end, why does eren, again not just kill everyone else? anyone wants to explain?
Leaving 20% of the population alive wouldn't be an immediate risk, as the world would be too damaged and would focus on its reconstruction. That was the original plan for the Survey Corps and the Azumabito (the 50-year plan). Eren did far more than the mini-Rumbling that was planned, so logically, that should give them more time.
It's true that "as long as humans exist, there will be wars" but if he had achieved 100% he would have had to kill the families of Falco, Reiner, and the other warriors. I think he wanted to avoid that since he asked them to live happily would have been difficult without their families.
| @WilliamMinerva20 Good pick up. I feel like they could have worded it better but this is basically what Erens line "I'm just an idiot" to Armin was referring to. His whole plan was for those he loved to live peacefully but somewhere along the way, a lot of those people like Sasha and Hange started dying off too. There's obviously a lot more to that conversation but I notice that line gets clowned on a fair bit. We do have to remember that by the time he said that, he is just a 19-year-old kid experiencing all his past and future memories simultaneously. There's a reason he said his head was all mixed up. I can barely concentrate on reading if someone is talking nearby, I can't even imagine making good decisions while experiencing my memories from all of time at once lol. |
Dec 15, 5:16 AM
#12
Reply to ahan0306
ktg said:
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
from me, i think if eren purpose is to solely save his friends, wouldn't it make so much sense to just kill everyone else? cuz leaving 20% behind is already a threat to his friends. also to me, its doesn't make sense if the theme is conflict never end, why does eren, again not just kill everyone else? anyone wants to explain?
| @ahan0306 The short answer is I don't believe he had a choice by the end. By viewing the memories of what happened, everything is locked in. Time in the world works more like the Grandfather Paradox rather than in the Marvel Cinematic universe for example where they have multiple timelines. If I went back in time and killed my grandfather before my parent is conceived, would I cease to exist? If I ceased to exist, how could I go back in time to kill my grandfather in the first place? It's not exactly the same thing cause there isn't actually any time travel in the show but it does help explain my point. Eren explores that a bit when he is telling Armin how he wanted to find another way but no matter what he couldn't change things. They show the scene where the kid is being beat in the alley and he decides to walk away instead, but he has already seen the memory from the future that he will save the kid, and so that's how it plays out. Even though he "tested" changing the future by walking away, he still came back to save the kid because he had seen he would do that already. In this show, you cannot change what has already happened and by viewing the memories of the future he now knows this is what happened in the future. He remembers it only because it happened. It's very confusing but essentially what this means is he already saw the future of him being defeated and as soon as that happened, it could no longer be changed. I think he would have continued until there was nothing left otherwise. It's also worth noting Eren isn't omnipotent. His power does actually have a lot of limitations. That being said, you do bring up one of my gripes with the ending. From a narrative perspective, he should have just killed everyone. As you mentioned, his goal was just to give his friends enough time to live their lives peacefully but the overarching premise is there will always be conflict no matter what. We see that towards the end as Paradis is preparing their new military and they insinuate some people are against it in the scene if you are watching their reactions. So to answer your question, narratively I feel like he could have just killed everyone and the outcome and overarching theme would have remained the same. But in universe, him viewing his future memories and thus causing the paradox is what physically stopped him from killing the whole world. |
Dec 15, 5:36 AM
#13
DigitalParadox said: @ahan0306 The short answer is I don't believe he had a choice by the end. By viewing the memories of what happened, everything is locked in. Time in the world works more like the Grandfather Paradox rather than in the Marvel Cinematic universe for example where they have multiple timelines. If I went back in time and killed my grandfather before my parent is conceived, would I cease to exist? If I ceased to exist, how could I go back in time to kill my grandfather in the first place? It's not exactly the same thing cause there isn't actually any time travel in the show but it does help explain my point. Eren explores that a bit when he is telling Armin how he wanted to find another way but no matter what he couldn't change things. They show the scene where the kid is being beat in the alley and he decides to walk away instead, but he has already seen the memory from the future that he will save the kid, and so that's how it plays out. Even though he "tested" changing the future by walking away, he still came back to save the kid because he had seen he would do that already. In this show, you cannot change what has already happened and by viewing the memories of the future he now knows this is what happened in the future. He remembers it only because it happened. It's very confusing but essentially what this means is he already saw the future of him being defeated and as soon as that happened, it could no longer be changed. I think he would have continued until there was nothing left otherwise. It's also worth noting Eren isn't omnipotent. His power does actually have a lot of limitations. That being said, you do bring up one of my gripes with the ending. From a narrative perspective, he should have just killed everyone. As you mentioned, his goal was just to give his friends enough time to live their lives peacefully but the overarching premise is there will always be conflict no matter what. We see that towards the end as Paradis is preparing their new military and they insinuate some people are against it in the scene if you are watching their reactions. So to answer your question, narratively I feel like he could have just killed everyone and the outcome and overarching theme would have remained the same. But in universe, him viewing his future memories and thus causing the paradox is what physically stopped him from killing the whole world. thx a lot, finally someone gave their full thoughts and explanation about my take on the ending |
Dec 15, 5:56 AM
#14
| I like the ending for these reasons: • It brought the end to 2 millennia of hatred • It tied all of these sub plots into one big plot and gave it a proper conclusion • It marked a new beginning for civilization where humanity can now grow and unite as one where we have seen cities full of skyscrapers being built as a result which was shown in the background |
Dec 15, 7:13 AM
#15
| I liked it cuz it was good and I disliked it cuz it was bad |
Dec 15, 7:31 AM
#16
| I think I disagree with most haters, even if I am one. my main reason is because of the series making a loop in the final manga panel, with the tree and implied restart of the Titan power lineage problem. I would also say that while I'm fine with humanity nearly being genocided, it wasn't portrayed well because it was used as a twist at the end. Everyone thought that stopping Eren would stop the genocide across the world, but as it happens, the amount of time it took Eren to walk to the end of Marley was exactly how long it took to wipe out 90% of thr rest of the planet. odd convenience. all these supposedly smart people and apparently none of them considered that possibility? If they had known, I'm pretty sure the fight would've been aimed to happen sooner. The Eren time travel stuff, regardless of how well it's done, seems very unnecessary and of course meaningless since he at least believed he had no free will. The last panel kind of reinforces that regardless of free will, time will loop back to war happening all over again as well. Seems like a bizarrely pessimistic view to promote in your supposedly anti-war story... |
Dec 15, 7:35 AM
#17
DigitalParadox said: @ahan0306 The short answer is I don't believe he had a choice by the end. By viewing the memories of what happened, everything is locked in. Time in the world works more like the Grandfather Paradox rather than in the Marvel Cinematic universe for example where they have multiple timelines. If I went back in time and killed my grandfather before my parent is conceived, would I cease to exist? If I ceased to exist, how could I go back in time to kill my grandfather in the first place? It's not exactly the same thing cause there isn't actually any time travel in the show but it does help explain my point. Eren explores that a bit when he is telling Armin how he wanted to find another way but no matter what he couldn't change things. They show the scene where the kid is being beat in the alley and he decides to walk away instead, but he has already seen the memory from the future that he will save the kid, and so that's how it plays out. Even though he "tested" changing the future by walking away, he still came back to save the kid because he had seen he would do that already. In this show, you cannot change what has already happened and by viewing the memories of the future he now knows this is what happened in the future. He remembers it only because it happened. It's very confusing but essentially what this means is he already saw the future of him being defeated and as soon as that happened, it could no longer be changed. I think he would have continued until there was nothing left otherwise. It's also worth noting Eren isn't omnipotent. His power does actually have a lot of limitations. That being said, you do bring up one of my gripes with the ending. From a narrative perspective, he should have just killed everyone. As you mentioned, his goal was just to give his friends enough time to live their lives peacefully but the overarching premise is there will always be conflict no matter what. We see that towards the end as Paradis is preparing their new military and they insinuate some people are against it in the scene if you are watching their reactions. So to answer your question, narratively I feel like he could have just killed everyone and the outcome and overarching theme would have remained the same. But in universe, him viewing his future memories and thus causing the paradox is what physically stopped him from killing the whole world. Thank you so much for explaining this, because I never have it in me lmao. This is so much to explain to people that I usually just give up. I have so many friends that hated the ending of AOT because they had these exact misunderstandings. If your opinion coming away from the show is “Eren is Hitler” or “The time travel makes no sense” then you just simply didn’t understand what you watching and should probably give it a rewatch. |
Dec 15, 8:14 AM
#18
Reply to Irshiki
ktg said:
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
There's no plot holes in the time travel because there's no time travel at all. The other things you mentioned aren't plot holes, they're just things you don't like.
| @Irshiki Everyone universally argeed that it is time travel. You just don't like that someone is smarter than you and noticed the plot holes. Some examples where people refer to it as time travel: https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1chd4pm/i_hate_time_travel_and_i_hate_how_its_portrayed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/182sjcz/time_travel_ruins_the_story/ |
Dec 15, 8:31 AM
#19
ktg said: @Irshiki Everyone universally argeed that it is time travel. You just don't like that someone is smarter than you and noticed the plot holes. Some examples where people refer to it as time travel: https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1chd4pm/i_hate_time_travel_and_i_hate_how_its_portrayed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/182sjcz/time_travel_ruins_the_story/ Universally agreed my ass. That does just means there are a lot of illiterates. What happen in that part of the story explain itself and the power plot twist of that part of the story explain itself. It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan. You can continue to believe that's a time travel, that doesn't change the fact it isn't. |
Dec 15, 8:36 AM
#20
Reply to DigitalParadox
@ktg I'm curious to know specifically what you consider to be the main plot holes? And what actions of Zekes you consider stupid? I ask because I feel like I have pretty good rebuttals to all those reasons and I just wanted to confirm what you were actually referring too in case I discuss something you aren't talking about. The "time travel" thing is one I am most interested in since I see it mentioned a lot when there is in fact, no time travel in the show.
As for the "reset", that was not the goal and to my knowledge this wasn't stated anywhere in the narrative (anime watcher only so if it's in the manga I wouldn't know). The point was just to allow Paradis the TIME to catch up technologically. Even if humanity outside doesn't have to reinvent things, 80% of the planet was still destroyed. They practically need to re-establish society, infrastructure and a functioning Government outside Paradis before they can even think about rebuilding technology for war.
You also need to take into consideration who actually died. If the majority of scientists or bright minds all died, it'll take longer to rebuild. In all likelihood, the remains of humanity were not just a bunch of super smart architects and scientists. Not to mention 80% of the world was crushed and that includes resources such as books with info on how to even learn or understand technology to begin with. The Earth was also physically flattened and therefore it will not be as easy to gather materials as it used to be. It takes years to get the Government to fill in a pothole in my country let alone reestablish a functioning society and all their technology from scratch.
My point is that it absolutely does buy them time to catch up. The only reason it isn't possible to visualise in the real world is because we can't comprehend the scale of physically destroying 80% of the world AND its people. Paradis are also not starting from scratch. Due to their interaction with the outside world and help from other nations, post time skip they already have a "flying boat". The Rumbling no doubt bought them decades as in evident by the ending sequence so I don't see how it would be so far-fetched to believe they could catch up technologically in that time.
Sorry if it was a long reply. I have just thought about it alot because the answers I get are often "this isn't possible" or "that doesn't make sense" but noone ever explains WHY they think that.
As for the "reset", that was not the goal and to my knowledge this wasn't stated anywhere in the narrative (anime watcher only so if it's in the manga I wouldn't know). The point was just to allow Paradis the TIME to catch up technologically. Even if humanity outside doesn't have to reinvent things, 80% of the planet was still destroyed. They practically need to re-establish society, infrastructure and a functioning Government outside Paradis before they can even think about rebuilding technology for war.
You also need to take into consideration who actually died. If the majority of scientists or bright minds all died, it'll take longer to rebuild. In all likelihood, the remains of humanity were not just a bunch of super smart architects and scientists. Not to mention 80% of the world was crushed and that includes resources such as books with info on how to even learn or understand technology to begin with. The Earth was also physically flattened and therefore it will not be as easy to gather materials as it used to be. It takes years to get the Government to fill in a pothole in my country let alone reestablish a functioning society and all their technology from scratch.
My point is that it absolutely does buy them time to catch up. The only reason it isn't possible to visualise in the real world is because we can't comprehend the scale of physically destroying 80% of the world AND its people. Paradis are also not starting from scratch. Due to their interaction with the outside world and help from other nations, post time skip they already have a "flying boat". The Rumbling no doubt bought them decades as in evident by the ending sequence so I don't see how it would be so far-fetched to believe they could catch up technologically in that time.
Sorry if it was a long reply. I have just thought about it alot because the answers I get are often "this isn't possible" or "that doesn't make sense" but noone ever explains WHY they think that.
| @DigitalParadox Here's some plot holes (I omit the time travel part because I tried to explain how different time travels work many times, but most people didn't understand it): - Eren got beheaded and still used the titan power. In season 3, Levi stabbed through Reiner's neck. It was explained to us that he was able to transfer, thus able to survive that attack by transferring his consciousness into his body. This indicates that the titan power is in the body and to transform, you need to have a connection between your conscious and the titan power. But when Eren got beheaded in S4 - when Zeke had to touch him -, that wasn't the case. Zeke needed to touch Eren's titan power, because what needed is the founding titan's power. But we know that the titan power had to be in Eren's body and not in his head - to survive his consciousness should have been in his body as well. No matter what theory you create, this does not make sense. If you claim that the titan power is in the shifter's head as well, then they shouldn't have died from beheading, because they could just regrow their body. - So I assume that you agree that Zeke was portrayed as a smart person, so I won't mention scenes to prove that. Zeke assumed that when Eren and he touch each other, he would be in control. This was risky and stupid, because there was no proof of that. From his POV, it would have been better to - even forcefully - touch Eren in Marly (we had a flashback when they first time met in Marley), and if it turns out that he cannot control the founding titan, he still could have used the Marley's army to stop Eren. Eren would have been alone without backup and Zeke could have lied how he accidentally ran into Eren and wasn't plotting something. Even if we assume that Zeke wanted to make sure that the Rumbling works, so wanted to have a mini Rumbling. He could have tried that when he landed with Eren in that aircraft on Paradis. They were close and there was no reason to wait. Paradis' forces weren't even smart enough to keep them in separate rooms. The reason why I mentioned that they should have tried at that point is because they waited, Eren got beheaded, so "almost" failed to execute their plan. And if you think about it, they didn't do anything during that time. Zeke was sitting in a forest and Eren was sitting in a cell. So by waiting, they simply risked their plan, because Marley needed some time for plot reasons, while logically this makes no sense. (Also, if we accept my previous point to be a plot hole, then they should have failed factually.) These 2 points are - probably - my most important issues, because these are severely tied to the main plot. And without these, the whole anime would have had a different ending. When it was revealed that Eren was manipulating his father, it felt like from that point onward, Isayama wrote everything without logic and he only wanted to achieve bigger plot twists even if those logically don't make sense. |
Dec 15, 8:43 AM
#21
Reply to Irshiki
ktg said:
@Irshiki Everyone universally argeed that it is time travel. You just don't like that someone is smarter than you and noticed the plot holes.
Some examples where people refer to it as time travel:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1chd4pm/i_hate_time_travel_and_i_hate_how_its_portrayed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/182sjcz/time_travel_ruins_the_story/
@Irshiki Everyone universally argeed that it is time travel. You just don't like that someone is smarter than you and noticed the plot holes.
Some examples where people refer to it as time travel:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1chd4pm/i_hate_time_travel_and_i_hate_how_its_portrayed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/182sjcz/time_travel_ruins_the_story/
Universally agreed my ass. That does just means there are a lot of illiterates. What happen in that part of the story explain itself and the power plot twist of that part of the story explain itself. It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan. You can continue to believe that's a time travel, that doesn't change the fact it isn't.
| @Irshiki No, there's one illiterate here, you. You don't know what time travel means. When someone can remember a memory from the future, then it is by definition time travel. Irshiki said: It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan. Firstly, that's a false interpretation. If you were right, then the shifter's will wouldn't travel with the memories, while the show explicitly displayed how the shifter is able to manipulate people in the past, so it's not just memories but the shifter's ACTUAL will decide which memories to show and how. Secondly, they could even manipulate memories, so it's not even just memories. Like how Owl mentions that if Grisha didn't have kids, then the history would have kept repeating itself. That was a manipulated memory, never happened. |
Dec 15, 9:09 AM
#22
Reply to ktg
@Irshiki Everyone universally argeed that it is time travel. You just don't like that someone is smarter than you and noticed the plot holes.
Some examples where people refer to it as time travel:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1chd4pm/i_hate_time_travel_and_i_hate_how_its_portrayed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/182sjcz/time_travel_ruins_the_story/
Some examples where people refer to it as time travel:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1chd4pm/i_hate_time_travel_and_i_hate_how_its_portrayed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/182sjcz/time_travel_ruins_the_story/
| @ktg To be fair, neither of those posts even talk about time travel. They put it in the title but everything they discuss isn't even time travel, that's just what they're calling it because they don't understand the concepts they are discussing. Most of what they said didn't even happen. It may sound obvious but for it to be time travel... one must actually travel through time. I'm not sure how you can claim it's universally agreed upon when even your sources don't understand what happened and other people in the thread disagree with you. Neither of the people in the post understands the Paths or how they work because they are attributing so many things they say to time travel that are related to the functionality of the Paths. The first guy doesn't even understand why Grisha decided he didn't want to kill the royal family at the last minute when the show even holds your hand and explicitly states it. If he can't read words, he definitely isn't gonna understand anything to do with time. And the other guy doesn't even understand how the memory ability works and thinks Eren actually altered the past. Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Paths, memory manipulation and time, OR you just looked for a couple posts with time travel in the title and hoped noone would read them. In Attack on Titan, time is just a vehicle to tell the story. Memory manipulation is the power used. No time travel ever takes place. Point to me any instance of time travel you think exists in the story and I guarantee I can disprove it. Just because you learned about the events in a different order than expected, doesn't make it time travel. Also cool it down man. If you can't explain yourself without insulting someone while being so obnoxiously and confidently incorrect about the topic, then just stop replying to the thread. I opened it for discussion, not so people can be rude to one another. |
Dec 15, 9:15 AM
#23
| It's pretty ballsy having your main character commit quite possibly the worst sin imaginable and to have enough integrity to give up his own life to see it through. |
 |
Dec 15, 9:27 AM
#24
ktg said: @Irshiki No, there's one illiterate here, you. You don't know what time travel means. When someone can remember a memory from the future, then it is by definition time travel. Irshiki said: It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan. Firstly, that's a false interpretation. If you were right, then the shifter's will wouldn't travel with the memories, while the show explicitly displayed how the shifter is able to manipulate people in the past, so it's not just memories but the shifter's ACTUAL will decide which memories to show and how. Secondly, they could even manipulate memories, so it's not even just memories. Like how Owl mentions that if Grisha didn't have kids, then the history would have kept repeating itself. That was a manipulated memory, never happened. You're wrong. By following what you say, Eren and Zeke should be visible by all the people inside the memories, but who knows why, only Grisha can see them. The fact Eren can change the past doesn't exist as well. You think Eren change it that moment, but it already happend. When the series begin, Eren already changed the story, so there's no past deformation, it was already meant to go that way. |
Dec 15, 9:28 AM
#25
| Because it was different from the usual happy endings that we see where everything gets resolved. |
 |
Dec 15, 9:34 AM
#26
Reply to DigitalParadox
@ktg To be fair, neither of those posts even talk about time travel. They put it in the title but everything they discuss isn't even time travel, that's just what they're calling it because they don't understand the concepts they are discussing. Most of what they said didn't even happen. It may sound obvious but for it to be time travel... one must actually travel through time. I'm not sure how you can claim it's universally agreed upon when even your sources don't understand what happened and other people in the thread disagree with you.
Neither of the people in the post understands the Paths or how they work because they are attributing so many things they say to time travel that are related to the functionality of the Paths. The first guy doesn't even understand why Grisha decided he didn't want to kill the royal family at the last minute when the show even holds your hand and explicitly states it. If he can't read words, he definitely isn't gonna understand anything to do with time. And the other guy doesn't even understand how the memory ability works and thinks Eren actually altered the past. Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Paths, memory manipulation and time, OR you just looked for a couple posts with time travel in the title and hoped noone would read them.
In Attack on Titan, time is just a vehicle to tell the story. Memory manipulation is the power used. No time travel ever takes place. Point to me any instance of time travel you think exists in the story and I guarantee I can disprove it. Just because you learned about the events in a different order than expected, doesn't make it time travel.
Also cool it down man. If you can't explain yourself without insulting someone while being so obnoxiously and confidently incorrect about the topic, then just stop replying to the thread. I opened it for discussion, not so people can be rude to one another.
Neither of the people in the post understands the Paths or how they work because they are attributing so many things they say to time travel that are related to the functionality of the Paths. The first guy doesn't even understand why Grisha decided he didn't want to kill the royal family at the last minute when the show even holds your hand and explicitly states it. If he can't read words, he definitely isn't gonna understand anything to do with time. And the other guy doesn't even understand how the memory ability works and thinks Eren actually altered the past. Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Paths, memory manipulation and time, OR you just looked for a couple posts with time travel in the title and hoped noone would read them.
In Attack on Titan, time is just a vehicle to tell the story. Memory manipulation is the power used. No time travel ever takes place. Point to me any instance of time travel you think exists in the story and I guarantee I can disprove it. Just because you learned about the events in a different order than expected, doesn't make it time travel.
Also cool it down man. If you can't explain yourself without insulting someone while being so obnoxiously and confidently incorrect about the topic, then just stop replying to the thread. I opened it for discussion, not so people can be rude to one another.
DigitalParadox said: To be fair, neither of those posts even talk about time travel. Ok, now I've read them. Both talks about time travel. You could make the argument that they didn't understand the time travel that happens in SnK, but they explicitly talk about time travel. DigitalParadox said: one must actually travel through time Incorrect, something needs to travel through time, not necessarily someone. Steins;Gate for example started with objects and messages. In SnK manipulated memories travel through time. DigitalParadox said: Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Path No one is interested in your braindamaged assumptions. I linked them because it literally takes 10 seconds to find 10 million examples where people refer to this as time travel. I haven't even read their posts originally. Look, another examples: https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/q9y54s/the_whole_time_travel_and_fate_thing_was_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/n0lg19/shouldve_kept_the_concept_of_time_travel_solely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/rufff1/do_we_even_need_time_travel_in_attack_on_titan/ EVERY SINGLE PERSON who can read understands it's time travel. Here you can have this reddit posts where they deep dive into the concept that is used in SnK: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/sgg9au/if_you_watched_the_new_episode_and_need_an/ But at this point, it is pretty clear that you didn't even recognize the time travel, so you failed to interpret the show. So I doubt that you will be able to give proper explanations to any of my points. DigitalParadox said: In Attack on Titan, time is just a vehicle to tell the story. Memory manipulation is the power used. No time travel ever takes place. If a character has access to memories that were "created" in the future, e.g. Owl saw Eren's memories, then the memories traveled through time. DigitalParadox said: I guarantee I can disprove it I bet. You failed to recognized that the time travel elements prove that we have a universe with fixed timeline here, while this is pretty basic concept. DigitalParadox said: Also cool it down man. If you can't explain yourself without insulting someone while being so obnoxiously and confidently incorrect about the topic, then just stop replying to the thread So you will stop replying? Because this is what you are doing. I replied in the same manner as he replied to me. He explicitly stated that everyone who thinks that this is time travel - which means including me - is illiterate. So who started insulting the other person? This is also true for you. I've wrote a perfectly normal reply to you first, but now you are insulting me by claiming things that I've never said and explicitly stated that because you think those statements are true, I was unable to understand the show. You can't read properly, don't claim that you can explain shit, because you clearly can't. Go to school first. |
Dec 15, 9:40 AM
#27
Reply to Irshiki
ktg said:
@Irshiki No, there's one illiterate here, you. You don't know what time travel means. When someone can remember a memory from the future, then it is by definition time travel.
Firstly, that's a false interpretation. If you were right, then the shifter's will wouldn't travel with the memories, while the show explicitly displayed how the shifter is able to manipulate people in the past, so it's not just memories but the shifter's ACTUAL will decide which memories to show and how.
Secondly, they could even manipulate memories, so it's not even just memories. Like how Owl mentions that if Grisha didn't have kids, then the history would have kept repeating itself. That was a manipulated memory, never happened.
@Irshiki No, there's one illiterate here, you. You don't know what time travel means. When someone can remember a memory from the future, then it is by definition time travel.
Irshiki said:
It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan.
It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan.
Firstly, that's a false interpretation. If you were right, then the shifter's will wouldn't travel with the memories, while the show explicitly displayed how the shifter is able to manipulate people in the past, so it's not just memories but the shifter's ACTUAL will decide which memories to show and how.
Secondly, they could even manipulate memories, so it's not even just memories. Like how Owl mentions that if Grisha didn't have kids, then the history would have kept repeating itself. That was a manipulated memory, never happened.
You're wrong. By following what you say, Eren and Zeke should be visible by all the people inside the memories, but who knows why, only Grisha can see them.
The fact Eren can change the past doesn't exist as well. You think Eren change it that moment, but it already happend. When the series begin, Eren already changed the story, so there's no past deformation, it was already meant to go that way.
| @Irshiki No, that's your misinterpretation of what time travel means. If memories travel through time then only the "receiver" is able to "see" them, who is Grisha. Irshiki said: The fact Eren can change the past doesn't exist as well If you can't read, don't reply. No one claimed that Eren changed the past. He didn't. It is a fixed timeline, that's how the time travel paradoxes were solved here. But just because the same things happened at the end, it's still time travel. I highly recommend this, because it explains how the time travel works in SnK: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/sgg9au/if_you_watched_the_new_episode_and_need_an/#lightbox Irshiki said: Eren already changed the story, so there's no past deformation, it was already meant to go that way Incorrect. The same things happened, but Eren did not change the history. You cannot change the history in a fixed timeline. In that link, you will find an example with Hitler. You travel back in time, replace baby Hitler with a different baby, e.g. orphan to avoid WW2, but that baby grows up to be Hitler and he does the same things. You traveled back time, that's objectively true, but you couldn't change anything. |
Dec 15, 9:41 AM
#28
| To be dead honest, it was boring, thats all. In the end, I'm glad it was bad because the memes were that good when critizing it after 😂, but it doesn't ruin the series for me. Still love the show, but yeah I was bored and a little dissapointed in the end. |
Dec 15, 9:46 AM
#29
ktg said: @Irshiki No, that's your misinterpretation of what time travel means. If memories travel through time then only the "receiver" is able to "see" them, who is Grisha. Irshiki said: The fact Eren can change the past doesn't exist as well If you can't read, don't reply. No one claimed that Eren changed the past. He didn't. It is a fixed timeline, that's how the time travel paradoxes were solved here. But just because the same things happened at the end, it's still time travel. I highly recommend this, because it explains how the time travel works in SnK: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/sgg9au/if_you_watched_the_new_episode_and_need_an/#lightbox Irshiki said: Eren already changed the story, so there's no past deformation, it was already meant to go that way Incorrect. The same things happened, but Eren did not change the history. You cannot change the history in a fixed timeline. In that link, you will find an example with Hitler. You travel back in time, replace baby Hitler with a different baby, e.g. orphan to avoid WW2, but that baby grows up to be Hitler and he does the same things. You traveled back time, that's objectively true, but you couldn't change anything. You're the one who doesn't know what time travels are if you think that a mental journey throughout memories is a time travel. The part about the fixed timeline is exactly what you don't get. You fill your mouth with these terms, yet it looks like is too difficult for you to get that inside this fixed timeline is already written that Grisha followed Eren instructions. The story has already been this since the beginning, otherwise, things like Grisha taking on the royal family or being eaten by Eren would have never happend. |
Dec 15, 9:57 AM
#30
| I like the balanced outcome. I dislike that Reiner survived. |
*kappa* |
Dec 15, 10:02 AM
#31
Reply to ktg
DigitalParadox said:
To be fair, neither of those posts even talk about time travel.
To be fair, neither of those posts even talk about time travel.
Ok, now I've read them. Both talks about time travel. You could make the argument that they didn't understand the time travel that happens in SnK, but they explicitly talk about time travel.
DigitalParadox said:
one must actually travel through time
one must actually travel through time
Incorrect, something needs to travel through time, not necessarily someone.
Steins;Gate for example started with objects and messages. In SnK manipulated memories travel through time.
DigitalParadox said:
Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Path
Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Path
No one is interested in your braindamaged assumptions. I linked them because it literally takes 10 seconds to find 10 million examples where people refer to this as time travel. I haven't even read their posts originally. Look, another examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/q9y54s/the_whole_time_travel_and_fate_thing_was_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/n0lg19/shouldve_kept_the_concept_of_time_travel_solely/
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/rufff1/do_we_even_need_time_travel_in_attack_on_titan/
EVERY SINGLE PERSON who can read understands it's time travel.
Here you can have this reddit posts where they deep dive into the concept that is used in SnK:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/sgg9au/if_you_watched_the_new_episode_and_need_an/
But at this point, it is pretty clear that you didn't even recognize the time travel, so you failed to interpret the show. So I doubt that you will be able to give proper explanations to any of my points.
DigitalParadox said:
In Attack on Titan, time is just a vehicle to tell the story. Memory manipulation is the power used. No time travel ever takes place.
In Attack on Titan, time is just a vehicle to tell the story. Memory manipulation is the power used. No time travel ever takes place.
If a character has access to memories that were "created" in the future, e.g. Owl saw Eren's memories, then the memories traveled through time.
DigitalParadox said:
I guarantee I can disprove it
I guarantee I can disprove it
I bet. You failed to recognized that the time travel elements prove that we have a universe with fixed timeline here, while this is pretty basic concept.
DigitalParadox said:
Also cool it down man. If you can't explain yourself without insulting someone while being so obnoxiously and confidently incorrect about the topic, then just stop replying to the thread
Also cool it down man. If you can't explain yourself without insulting someone while being so obnoxiously and confidently incorrect about the topic, then just stop replying to the thread
So you will stop replying? Because this is what you are doing.
I replied in the same manner as he replied to me. He explicitly stated that everyone who thinks that this is time travel - which means including me - is illiterate. So who started insulting the other person?
This is also true for you. I've wrote a perfectly normal reply to you first, but now you are insulting me by claiming things that I've never said and explicitly stated that because you think those statements are true, I was unable to understand the show.
You can't read properly, don't claim that you can explain shit, because you clearly can't. Go to school first.
| @ktg I have never seen someone be so confidently wrong about something in my life. I said you were unable to understand the parts of the show we were discussing because what you explained was incorrect. It's as simple as that. There were no feelings involved. Dare I say, I was... discussing something. There is literally only one post you actually tried to explain about the story. Funnily enough, I actually agreed with some of the stuff you had said (to which I was replying before I saw this obnoxious response). You have to take your feelings out of conversations about facts, little bro. It is so obviously a fixed timeline I'm not sure how it is open for discussion and I even explained that to someone further up in the thread. Who's the one making assumptions now? Every other thing you have done in the thread has been abusing people who disagreed with you. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. If you can't have a conversation without being insulting then perhaps you're the one who needs to head back school. Move along kid. Based on your 2268 posts, I'm sure you're running out of time in your day to fulfill your daily insult quota. |
DigitalParadoxDec 15, 10:20 AM
Dec 15, 10:45 AM
#32
| Dang, how did I miss this heated discussion? Anyway, I’ll drop my two cents, not about liking or disliking the ending, but about the aspects I usually enjoy that are being discussed. AOT includes deterministic, information based time travel within a fixed timeline. People who say it isn’t time travel, or that it doesn’t involve time travel, are using a colloquial or genre based definition of the term. It’s a fixed, deterministic loop, not character based or timeline changing, but it’s still time travel, specifically a causal loop (bootstrap paradox). This works because information (memories, intent, commands, or whatever you want to call it) flows from a future point "Eren" to a past point "Grisha". This isn’t some power system or magic introduced in the anime, it’s a form of time travel. Also, time travel doesn’t require altering the past or creating alternate timelines, as some have claimed. Objectively, a causal loop still counts as time travel, even if the timeline is immutable. |
"Worth a watch" anime from "Romance, Isekai, Shounen and Comedy" Genre in 👉My Profile👈  • Watching this season • My Anime list • Comment |
Dec 15, 12:50 PM
#33
ktg said: The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept. - If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character. - The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts. - About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier. Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do? Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers (let alone when it's not controlled by a person from the Reiss family) nor the Attack Titan's powers. Plus, he didn't really know Eren that much, he thought he was brainwashed by Grish - add all that to the fact that "future Eren" sent Eren memories at certain times to pull that bluff on Zeke, so I'd hardly call it stupid, the guy was playing dominoes with Eren who was playing 4D chess. As for the last point, I don't think it's a 100% reset per se Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected. |
Dec 15, 1:30 PM
#34
| Personally, I liked the ending, let's be honest here for a second.. How on Earth do you end a story like this? To be able to do that, answering the tons of questions we had in the first 3 seasons when everything was vague – without leaving any loose ends, and still making it meaningful and well-written? It's a pretty difficult task. I don't know what people expected, I think expecting a pleasant ending where everyone lives happily ever after is so out of character for a story like AoT's, the way I see it, it's the perfect ending for a show like this. There's no black and white, everyone is the devil in someone else's story, also, everyone did awful things to everyone else across history. I don't remember the exact conversation Pixis and Erwin back in S1, but Pixis asks "When will humanity stop fighting?" to which Erwin replies "When there's only one human." So at the end, the cycle of hatred remains because of course it does, look at the world we live in, AoT has many fictional sides, but it's also soaked in realism. |
Dec 15, 7:10 PM
#35
Reply to itsrj20
Dang, how did I miss this heated discussion? Anyway, I’ll drop my two cents, not about liking or disliking the ending, but about the aspects I usually enjoy that are being discussed.
AOT includes deterministic, information based time travel within a fixed timeline. People who say it isn’t time travel, or that it doesn’t involve time travel, are using a colloquial or genre based definition of the term. It’s a fixed, deterministic loop, not character based or timeline changing, but it’s still time travel, specifically a causal loop (bootstrap paradox).
This works because information (memories, intent, commands, or whatever you want to call it) flows from a future point "Eren" to a past point "Grisha". This isn’t some power system or magic introduced in the anime, it’s a form of time travel.
Also, time travel doesn’t require altering the past or creating alternate timelines, as some have claimed. Objectively, a causal loop still counts as time travel, even if the timeline is immutable.
AOT includes deterministic, information based time travel within a fixed timeline. People who say it isn’t time travel, or that it doesn’t involve time travel, are using a colloquial or genre based definition of the term. It’s a fixed, deterministic loop, not character based or timeline changing, but it’s still time travel, specifically a causal loop (bootstrap paradox).
This works because information (memories, intent, commands, or whatever you want to call it) flows from a future point "Eren" to a past point "Grisha". This isn’t some power system or magic introduced in the anime, it’s a form of time travel.
Also, time travel doesn’t require altering the past or creating alternate timelines, as some have claimed. Objectively, a causal loop still counts as time travel, even if the timeline is immutable.
| @itsrj20 Yeah I apologise that it got unnecessarily heated. I was hoping to avoid that by addressing it in the original post before the fact but I suppose that is my mistake for expecting better from random people on the internet. What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement. I appreciate the time you took to break it down. |
Dec 15, 7:13 PM
#36
Reply to CipherKen
ktg said:
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do?
Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers (let alone when it's not controlled by a person from the Reiss family) nor the Attack Titan's powers.
Plus, he didn't really know Eren that much, he thought he was brainwashed by Grish - add all that to the fact that "future Eren" sent Eren memories at certain times to pull that bluff on Zeke, so I'd hardly call it stupid, the guy was playing dominoes with Eren who was playing 4D chess.
As for the last point, I don't think it's a 100% reset per se
Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected.
| @CipherKen I was also explaining this earlier but then I got triggered and didn't post it in favor of crashing out instead haha. But I am agreement with your point about what was referred to as a "reset". |
Dec 15, 8:47 PM
#37
ktg said: @Irshiki No, there's one illiterate here, you. You don't know what time travel means. When someone can remember a memory from the future, then it is by definition time travel. Irshiki said: It is a journey throughout the memories of the Attack Titan. Firstly, that's a false interpretation. If you were right, then the shifter's will wouldn't travel with the memories, while the show explicitly displayed how the shifter is able to manipulate people in the past, so it's not just memories but the shifter's ACTUAL will decide which memories to show and how. Secondly, they could even manipulate memories, so it's not even just memories. Like how Owl mentions that if Grisha didn't have kids, then the history would have kept repeating itself. That was a manipulated memory, never happened. Lmfao, you’re explaining clairvoyance. That’s not time travel. |
Dec 15, 9:14 PM
#38
| Weird confession, I actually enjoyed the ending. It was…almost perfect. |
| If I had to choose between One Piece and a girlfriend...I think I'll go with One Piece |
Dec 15, 10:08 PM
#39
ajw215799 said: I feel like the ending was too… how do I say this, kind of not what I signed up for. I remember when I was convinced to start watching the show, it was pitched to me as a gritty action thing where the protagonist was killed off early. And I genuinely regard Season 1 as one of the greatest seasons of television ever made. But as time went on and the mythology kept going on, I feel like the one bright light at the end of the tunnel was hoping Eren and Mikasa would end up together you hated that it had good world buliding? |
Yesterday, 12:58 AM
#40
DigitalParadox said: @itsrj20 Yeah I apologise that it got unnecessarily heated. I was hoping to avoid that by addressing it in the original post before the fact but I suppose that is my mistake for expecting better from random people on the internet. What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement. I appreciate the time you took to break it down. Yes, that argument is valid, and you’re right about how it’s handled in universe. However, it’s still irrelevant to whether it counts as time travel, which was the main issue in the discussion. Almost all time travel in fiction requires a mechanism. I won’t list too many examples to avoid spoilers, but for instance, a device in Steins;Gate, time manipulating abilities in the Fate series, mind/consciousness based time travel in Erased (Revival), or AoT’s mechanism being Paths. All of these use different mechanisms to achieve time travel. The presence of a mechanism does not disqualify something from being time travel. Paths are simply the in universe explanation, but the resulting backward information flow still fits a fixed timeline causal loop model. Although it’s implemented through an in universe power system, the mechanism functions as information based time travel. |
"Worth a watch" anime from "Romance, Isekai, Shounen and Comedy" Genre in 👉My Profile👈 • Watching this season • My Anime list • Comment |
Yesterday, 4:49 AM
#41
| The ending is pretentious as heck and fails even in that to deliver a compelling message. Characters and events feel stupid and almost feels like some superhero movie when they fight Eren. And everyone acting like it is so deep and ignoring the obvious issues just increases my distaste. It has been a while so I dont remember details to give examples, so whatever... I rated it 6 but I think I will lower it to 1 now just because Im pissed off. |
Yesterday, 7:09 AM
#42
| I got a lot of reasons to hate the ending and have exposed it on other forum posts, might as well write a review about It later. But It's basically that the ending is a complete retcon of the story built so far as well as it's most important characters (Eren and Ymir). All the other problems come from that. |
Yesterday, 10:36 AM
#43
Reply to cursed_viper
ajw215799 said:
I feel like the ending was too… how do I say this, kind of not what I signed up for. I remember when I was convinced to start watching the show, it was pitched to me as a gritty action thing where the protagonist was killed off early. And I genuinely regard Season 1 as one of the greatest seasons of television ever made. But as time went on and the mythology kept going on, I feel like the one bright light at the end of the tunnel was hoping Eren and Mikasa would end up together
I feel like the ending was too… how do I say this, kind of not what I signed up for. I remember when I was convinced to start watching the show, it was pitched to me as a gritty action thing where the protagonist was killed off early. And I genuinely regard Season 1 as one of the greatest seasons of television ever made. But as time went on and the mythology kept going on, I feel like the one bright light at the end of the tunnel was hoping Eren and Mikasa would end up together
you hated that it had good world buliding?
| @cursed_viper sure if that’s how you want to think of it |
Yesterday, 1:31 PM
#44
Reply to Midio7
The ending is pretentious as heck and fails even in that to deliver a compelling message. Characters and events feel stupid and almost feels like some superhero movie when they fight Eren.
And everyone acting like it is so deep and ignoring the obvious issues just increases my distaste. It has been a while so I dont remember details to give examples, so whatever...
I rated it 6 but I think I will lower it to 1 now just because Im pissed off.
And everyone acting like it is so deep and ignoring the obvious issues just increases my distaste. It has been a while so I dont remember details to give examples, so whatever...
I rated it 6 but I think I will lower it to 1 now just because Im pissed off.
| @Midio7 Btw, the series conveys the message quite well but The fans are completely misunderstanding it. |
Yesterday, 3:18 PM
#45
Irshiki said: You're the one who doesn't know what time travels are if you think that a mental journey throughout memories is a time travel Holy shit, you should have just google it... EVERYONE on the whole planet thinks that "mental journey" is time travel. In Edge of Tomorrow the main character's memories travel back in time and what does IMDb say about its category? "Time Travel": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1631867/ Irshiki said: yet it looks like is too difficult for you to get that inside this fixed timeline is already written that Grisha followed Eren instructions Hm, maybe you can't read? It's pretty clearly stated in that link that I showed you that no. Fixed timeline does not mean that it happened according to Eren's plan every cases, it means that no matter what Eren or anyone else does, the same thing would happen. It's not a hard concept, but somehow you cannot understand it. Btw, my point wasn't that Eren changed anything, so you clearly can't read. My point was that memories traveled in time. It does not mean that it had to change anything. E.g Owl was able to mention certain names, like Mikasa, so somehow he had memories from the future. This is what - by definition - time travel is. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ DigitalParadox said: I said you were unable to understand the parts of the show we were discussing because what you explained was incorrect So, this wasn't in your comment? DigitalParadox said: Considering you linked these as your proof, you even agree with them which means you also fundamentally don't understand the concepts around the Paths Because here you clearly imply that I agree with reddit threads when I've never stated this. Why are you lying so blatantly? DigitalParadox said: to which I was replying before I saw this obnoxious response The "obnoxious response" that I wrote in the same "obnoxious" that you used. If you don't like it, maybe stop lying about the other person and respect him. You have a problem with the person who looks back you when you look into the mirror and not with me. I always reply in the same manner as someone replied to me. DigitalParadox said: You have to take your feelings out of conversations about facts, little bro See, another lie. No, my comments do not involve emotions. These comments are 100% indifferent in terms of tones and 100% objective. DigitalParadox said: Who's the one making assumptions now? You. You assumed that I agree with the reddit threads and in this comment you lied about it. And in this comment you also assumed that my feelings are involved. So you pretty clearly cannot accept that you were wrong. And you also couldn't address any of my points which tells me a lot about how "wrong" I was. In short, I wasn't. DigitalParadox said: Every other thing you have done in the thread has been abusing people who disagreed with you See, another lie from you. The first response I got was a lie about how I'm just wrong and I just don't like stuff in it without even understanding my point. Here's the first reply I got: Irshiki said: they're just things you don't like. Then I corrected him and replied in the same manner. I also provided proof. Then he implicitly called me illiterate: Irshiki said: That does just means there are a lot of illiterates. And you responded to the comment that I wrote to this. So no, it wasn't me who started this, kiddo, stop lying. DigitalParadox said: If you can't have a conversation without being insulting then perhaps you're the one who needs to head back school Yes, that's why you started lying about me and ignored the other person who started insulting me. GO TO SCHOOL. __________________________________________________________________________________________________ kenx3030 said: Lmfao, you’re explaining clairvoyance. That’s not time travel. Lol, you don't know what clairvoyance is. In case of clairvoyance the "future self" cannot decide or change what to show to the "present self". While Eren can decide what to show and how to manipulate people in the past. |
Yesterday, 3:30 PM
#46
Reply to CipherKen
ktg said:
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
The general answer is that Isayama introduced a couple plot holes that destroyed the initial concept.
- If it's the whole S4 as an "ending", then Zeke's actions are stupid, while he was portrayed as a clever character.
- The way time travel is handled introduces plot holes, because it mixed up different concepts.
- About the actual ending, logically it doesn't work. You cannot "reset" society's technological advantage and knowledge by killing people. After they invented something, reinventing will be easier.
Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do?
Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers (let alone when it's not controlled by a person from the Reiss family) nor the Attack Titan's powers.
Plus, he didn't really know Eren that much, he thought he was brainwashed by Grish - add all that to the fact that "future Eren" sent Eren memories at certain times to pull that bluff on Zeke, so I'd hardly call it stupid, the guy was playing dominoes with Eren who was playing 4D chess.
As for the last point, I don't think it's a 100% reset per se
Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected.
| @CipherKen I address this separately, because you are not lying, so I can keep this thread clean. CipherKen said: Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do? I had a previous comment where I explained this, here's the quote: ktg said: - So I assume that you agree that Zeke was portrayed as a smart person, so I won't mention scenes to prove that. Zeke assumed that when Eren and he touch each other, he would be in control. This was risky and stupid, because there was no proof of that. From his POV, it would have been better to - even forcefully - touch Eren in Marly (we had a flashback when they first time met in Marley), and if it turns out that he cannot control the founding titan, he still could have used the Marley's army to stop Eren. Eren would have been alone without backup and Zeke could have lied how he accidentally ran into Eren and wasn't plotting something. Even if we assume that Zeke wanted to make sure that the Rumbling works, so wanted to have a mini Rumbling. He could have tried that when he landed with Eren in that aircraft on Paradis. They were close and there was no reason to wait. Paradis' forces weren't even smart enough to keep them in separate rooms. The reason why I mentioned that they should have tried at that point is because they waited, Eren got beheaded, so "almost" failed to execute their plan. And if you think about it, they didn't do anything during that time. Zeke was sitting in a forest and Eren was sitting in a cell. So by waiting, they simply risked their plan, because Marley needed some time for plot reasons, while logically this makes no sense. (Also, if we accept my previous point to be a plot hole, then they should have failed factually.) CipherKen said: Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers That's correct, but previously he was portrayed as a smart, cautious man. So accepted Eren's ideas, or I assume Eren proposed them and not Zeke, was a stupid thing to do. He should have forced a contact when he met Eren in Marley, so in case Eren was "truly" bad, not brainwashed and Zeke couldn't control the founding titan, he had a chance to stop him because his "allies" were in Marley. CipherKen said: Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected. Yes, I understood, my point is that even if at that point technologically they are on the same level as the Paradis Island, they will still advance faster, so there's no "real peace", because it takes a year and they are already ahead again, theoretically. So there's no way to have 2 civilization with the same amount of resources, knowledge and technology. Also, as far as I know, the 20% that Eren left behind is still significantly more than what Paradis' population was, at least based on the estimations. Like on Paradis we have couple million people at best, while on the whole planet hundred millions. So a conservative estimation would be that 500 million people lived on the whole planet and 20% of that is 100 million. Compared to Paradis' couple millions, that's a huge difference. Like if they wanted to punish Paradis Island, they could have. They even lost their walls, so they had no chance to defend themselves. |
11 hours ago
#47
DigitalParadox said: I've just finished a rewatch of the series for the 3rd time. I've watched it in both sub and dub if that matters to anyone. I have a couple small gripes with some of the shows narrative just because I don't feel like they were thoroughly explained. I'm not referring to major plot points that encourage you to fill in the blanks based on previous context but just some very minor things that I felt could have used a little more fleshing out. That being said, as a whole, the show is an easy 9.6/10 for me. My question is as the title says. I know many people dislike the ending for a number of reasons whether that is the lack of a happy ending, the perception that certain characters acted differently towards the end, or the fact the whole thing was potentially "pointless". I've also heard people who disliked season 4 as a whole because it was quite different to earlier seasons. To be clear, these are just things I've heard people say in discussion or what I've seen in other threads. I will say I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand. The story and character motivations definitely become clearer and easier to understand on additional watches. Isayama does a very good job tying most things together and I've noticed many explanations I've read of "plot holes" are simply things some people misinterpreted or didn't understand correctly. All that being said, I would love to know reasons why you did or did not enjoy the ending. I love discussing this show and I'm very open to other peoples opinions regarding it, even if they differ from my own. Please keep the discussion civil and if your reply isn't intended to be constructive, perhaps just pass by this thread. Didn’t understand correctly, huh? Them are fighting words ya know. Perhaps Isayama didn’t make the effort to fully flesh out his own world and characters. Not saying it’s an easy thing to do - there’s actually no limit to how much depth and complexity you can pour into these things - but all the more reason not to so easily defend it just because you like it. The more complex it gets, the easier it is to look over things and make mistakes. Why don’t you explain it since you’re so certain it all works out. |
10 hours ago
#48
| I dislike because it no longer makes sense. It’s not as well-contrived as previous seasons. The other seasons had their plot holes too, but I really only noticed them on rewatches. In this season, it’s pretty easy to see how Eren’s character doesn’t make sense. You can’t hate everyone enough to kill them all and, at the same time, feel absolutely horrible for doing so. And yet, they really still tried to push that. And even if you could, wth is with that presentation of Eren in the ending like he’s some victim? His friends accepted that crap too! Literally the most lamentable turn he could have taken. Pathetic. Honestly could have been okay if his friends made the same judgement, but they didn’t. And then, they had to give it just a little more justification to make the genocide seem somewhat more worth it (why?). Getting rid of the titans. I’ll be honest in that this felt like an ass pull. The ability to just get rid of it is too convenient. I know there’s an explanation with Ymir, but that explanation is also ludicrous. She already broke her shackles with Eren’s help, so why does Mikasa breaking free have any effect on her mindset? Especially considering she saw these events transpire already?! Wait, that means she saw the moment with Eren too! Because she guided it to happen, right? So why does that moment have so much effect on her? Also why does the royal blood matter anymore at this point? Y’all noticed how Zeke still mattered in the end right? Isn’t the only reason why they were special b/c Ymir had been bound to serve royalty at the psychological level? But she’s no longer bound, so … what’s going on Isayama? Also how do you discern who is royalty when they all share blood with the original king? Why is one line specifically royalty? I got plenty more to say btw. But no time to write it all down. Come on, stop trying to make it make sense people. It’s okay for it to be flawed. It’s still a good show overall, but it most certainly ain’t perfect |
8 hours ago
#49
how else should I interpreted it then? you said you didn't like how the mythology kept going bigger and bigger, which I understood as you didn't like how it wasn't just about people killing titans. |
7 hours ago
#50
Reply to cursed_viper
how else should I interpreted it then? you said you didn't like how the mythology kept going bigger and bigger, which I understood as you didn't like how it wasn't just about people killing titans.
| @cursed_viper I just think that after Season 1, the more mythology they introduced, the weaker the story gets |
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