Reply to Mr_Nintendont
Lots of other examples like Halo Legends https://myanimelist.net/anime/6867/Halo_Legends , which was mainly marketed towards the west, based off of a western ip, english as the primary language
The Animatrix: https://myanimelist.net/anime/1303/The_Animatrix , which again was marketed towards westerners and based off of a western ip with english being the primary language
Even all those marvel animes: https://myanimelist.net/anime/producer/483/Marvel_Entertainment with the same situation again
Just seems like some angry forum mod having a fit about this show in particular. Kinda sad as Scott Pilgrim is probably one of the best anime shows this year. One power hungry guy always gotta ruin it for everyone else.
The Animatrix: https://myanimelist.net/anime/1303/The_Animatrix , which again was marketed towards westerners and based off of a western ip with english being the primary language
Even all those marvel animes: https://myanimelist.net/anime/producer/483/Marvel_Entertainment with the same situation again
Just seems like some angry forum mod having a fit about this show in particular. Kinda sad as Scott Pilgrim is probably one of the best anime shows this year. One power hungry guy always gotta ruin it for everyone else.
| @Mr_Nintendont bad comparison. Lacks of research on your urls listed above. Using western ip isn't a solid reason imo. |
| MALoween✟Mansion (2024) Candy Basket 🎃: |
| Weird how you're gonna have the FLCL sequels series on here and those were made in Collaboration with Toonami and yet not have the Scott Pilgrim Anime that was literally animated by Science Saru, Which literally has a page on here.https://myanimelist.net/anime/producer/1591/Science_SARU?q=Science%20Saru&cat=company Next you're gonna tell me Star Wars visions doesn't count because it's not aimed at Japanese Audiences even though it's on here. |
Reply to bpc908
Weird how you're gonna have the FLCL sequels series on here and those were made in Collaboration with Toonami and yet not have the Scott Pilgrim Anime that was literally animated by Science Saru, Which literally has a page on here.https://myanimelist.net/anime/producer/1591/Science_SARU?q=Science%20Saru&cat=company
Next you're gonna tell me Star Wars visions doesn't count because it's not aimed at Japanese Audiences even though it's on here.
Next you're gonna tell me Star Wars visions doesn't count because it's not aimed at Japanese Audiences even though it's on here.
| @bpc908 We have Mass Effect and Dragon Age animated works on MAL, and those gaming franchises definitely are not marketed towards a Japanese audience. |
 "Don't let your memes be dreams."- Ancient Japanese proverb, probably |
Reply to Akaidan
Imagine living in Japan for 10 years, you get your Japanese citizenship, you are so invested in animation that you become the head of animation at freaking Science SARU, and yet you still don't get to make "anime".
| @Akaidan But other science SARU series are listed here... Science SARU If you check their other entries you can see a clear difference, they're either the only one involved or part of a majority of East Asian studios/producers in a collaboration. Either way very little western involvement or for the most part, none whatsoever. SPTO is different from this, because there is much more western involvement.
|
quercifoliaDec 2, 2023 5:18 PM
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Reply to IGRAIY
quercifolia said:
Science SARU
Which is the main studio.Science SARU
quercifolia said:
only 2/11 executive producers are east asian (Eunyoung Choi & Kouhei Obara.)
Ok but how many directors are Japanese compared to western? Producers can change things but are mostly involved in the business side of things, can you prove that the producers interjected enough to the point where they limited on the creative freedom of the directors?only 2/11 executive producers are east asian (Eunyoung Choi & Kouhei Obara.)
quercifolia said:
Many adverts from Netflix Japan use English dub with Japanese subtitles, like how the west shows a foreign audience tv series.
"Many" sure, but can you prove that they are the majority?Many adverts from Netflix Japan use English dub with Japanese subtitles, like how the west shows a foreign audience tv series.
| @IGRAIY I ended up replying to most of that in the other thread, so I won't copy paste it here Though, I will say, Directors typically answer to Executive Producers. And if a director is working for Science SARU, they would still be considered as part of that one entity. (Like a typesetter, in-between frames or color filler etc) |
|
| The mods and admins have lost their minds. "Not aimed at the Japanese anime market" this has to be new rule and it's such an arbitrary one at that. I was always under the impression that if an anime was primarily animated in Japan or China, it would make it on the database. Cyberpunk Edgerunners's story was supervised by and collaborated with CD Projekt Red, Trigger didn't have full creative control, and it was primarily targeted to the west where the original game is very popular. And what about the Adult Swim shows like Blade Runner and the FLCL sequels? Those were clearly not aimed at the Japanese market, yet they are in the database. This rule needs to be reviewed and repealed because it's not being enforced consistently as many here have pointed out. |
| Instead of arguing the point, just export your list over to Anime-Planet and mark your stuff there. They have it: https://www.anime-planet.com/anime/scott-pilgrim-takes-off MAL is a good site, but realistically they are not the most inclusive or complete. |
Reply to AnimeIs4Kidz
Siding with mal on this one.
Scott something is just a cringe cartoon for american teens lmao
Scott something is just a cringe cartoon for american teens lmao
| @AnimeIs4Kidz just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it's not an anime lol |
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.I.C.E. D.I.C.E was originally recorded and aired in English first and is on the database. |
| Cybersix must also be removed. |
| I just started watching the Cyberpunk anime and it got me thinking "why is there a MAL page for this and not for Scott Pilgrim?" Rules needs to be revised and Scott Pilgrim deserves a page here |
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Reply to manganime88
@Kwanthemaster
Sorry but I'm not sure if this is correct, iirc, the inclusion of Chinese/Korean stuff has happened maybe over last 5-10 years or so; not exclusively only on MAL, but on other veteran anime sites which I am more active such as AniDB and Anime-Planet. I am quite certain that through the 00s (and maybe early-mid 10s), it was purely Japanese.
And even if they were always allowed, what is the argument for allowing Chinese/Korean productions? The classic definition was always based off whether or not it's a Japanese production, I think the term we even used way back in the day was Japanimation, so the whole Chinese/Korean things doesn't make sense to me, it just seems like arbitrarily moving the goal post and diluting the term anime without sound reasoning AFAIK.
EDIT: Did some more digging, as expected this debate has already come up multiple times:
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1759752
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1542197
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1416985
Some suggest they were always allowed while others suggest there was a policy change at some point to allow them, but with the former, seems like there is some truth to it being a burden for admins to go through and remove them all. Either way, I still find the alleged reasoning for allowing Chinese/Korean content on an anime website highly questionable and stand by my original argument. People state the cultural and geographic ties to Japan, but that logic just opens the door to too much imo, as you can say well the Americans occupied Japan and that a lot of forefounders of manga and anime were influenced by Western media...
| @manganime88 I gathered this information from lanblade, one of the most prolific and respected contributors the anime database has ever had (https://myanimelist.net/forum/?goto=post&topicid=1510673&id=56082454). Literally all the way back when the guidelines were first created, you can see references to China and Korea: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?goto=post&topicid=141101&id=6991236 (2010). So maybe they weren't added right from the very start, but they have likely been allowed for over 15+ years. Part of the reason I believe they are allowed is because Chinese (https://myanimelist.net/manga.php?q=&type=6&score=0&status=2&mid=0&sm=0&sd=0&sy=0&em=0&ed=0&ey=0&c%5B%5D=a&c%5B%5D=b&c%5B%5D=c&c%5B%5D=f&gx=0) and Korean (https://myanimelist.net/manga.php?q=&type=5&score=0&status=2&mid=0&sm=0&sd=0&sy=0&em=0&ed=0&ey=0&c%5B%5D=a&c%5B%5D=b&c%5B%5D=c&c%5B%5D=f&gx=0) comics are allowed. If you're going to allow these, you should allow animation from these countries as well. The industry connections is one thing, but it's also worth considering the output of Chinese animated series in a frequency mimicking Japanese seasonals, not to mention just the overall demand for them. My point here though is that MAL never calls these works "anime", explicitly using the terms "aeni" and "donghua". MyAnimeList, while having "anime" in the name, does not mean it is exclusively a database for Japanese animation (this is standard among other industries). Thousands of works exist in the database, and they've only expanded their guidelines by allowing work from Taiwan and opening up to more webtoons, so I don't think there will ever be a point when they are removed. And why should they be? These works make a lot of the userbase happy and are a valuable resource. Destroying all of this data users have worked to build up is incredibly wasteful. The main argument I've seen against them is that it distracts from the core fanbase surrounding Japan. While I agree that MAL should add categories for these works so people can filter them out if they choose to, I see absolutely no harm with them existing here as long as Japan is still prioritized. In fact, I would love to see MAL continue to expand to allow more countries as coverage of these ones become more complete (e.g. Philippines, Thailand). There really are no decent dedicated English-language animation databases out there with all of this user functionality, so MAL could fill a nice void. However, this should be done gradually as to not overwhelm the moderators and introduce too much change rapidly. You can reasonably argue they should first work on becoming more lax on co-productions or doujin though. But even if you think expansion is a bad thing, the point is that they are allowed, and instead of pointing them out for removal, we should rally together for what we want added. |
KwanthemasterDec 30, 2023 3:15 PM
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| guys guys guys guys guys. y'all are missing the point. the fact is, the true definition of anime is: any show that MAL mods like. MAL mods don't like SPTO so it's not anime. you don't gotta be an ace detective to figure this one out |
Reply to manganime88
@Kwanthemaster
Thanks for that extensive response and bringing those interesting points to light.
I questioned this on A-P also, over there I wasn't provided with a reason why but was told by a mod that their stance about allowing Chinese/Korean stuff was decided around 10 years ago (even though the site is older than that), so maybe over there it was a conscious change in policy to allow the expansion and was noted by the mod that these territories have been pumping out more content recently so it has become more noticeable (not knowing much about the output of these places I am not sure how much truth there is to that claim)....or I guess maybe since they were maybe adding stuff retroactively it took a while for them to catch up and we are noticing more now. I'm not sure if it's the same kind of deal on AniDB also. (I am more familiar with these databases over MAL afterall).
I do understand your point and stance a lot better now, so thanks for clarifying, I think if there is a clear distinction made by using tags/categorises to differentiate them from Japanese content i.e. what is actually "anime", then it becomes less objectionable. Yes, it can distract as you pointed out, especially if not given the option to filter them out, and it maybe opens the doors for more of these kinds of debates ("why can't X be added when Y is added?"). But I think if the distinction is clear between anime, aeni and donghua, and there isn't actually an attempt to class the latter 2 as something which they are not, and the website name exists due to the core focus...then I suppose there isn't too much to be upset over...even if the website name does become a bit of a misnomer.
Though it does highlight, why should MAL stop at China and Korea? May as well include other countries also and just clearly tag them in equal fashion (especially surrounding Asian countries with overlapping similarities in their content and which could do with some recognition)...maybe it just becomes too unmanageable and too much work for admins and mods, but makes me think that something like Boku No Daemon should maybe be accepted afterall.
Thanks for that extensive response and bringing those interesting points to light.
I questioned this on A-P also, over there I wasn't provided with a reason why but was told by a mod that their stance about allowing Chinese/Korean stuff was decided around 10 years ago (even though the site is older than that), so maybe over there it was a conscious change in policy to allow the expansion and was noted by the mod that these territories have been pumping out more content recently so it has become more noticeable (not knowing much about the output of these places I am not sure how much truth there is to that claim)....or I guess maybe since they were maybe adding stuff retroactively it took a while for them to catch up and we are noticing more now. I'm not sure if it's the same kind of deal on AniDB also. (I am more familiar with these databases over MAL afterall).
I do understand your point and stance a lot better now, so thanks for clarifying, I think if there is a clear distinction made by using tags/categorises to differentiate them from Japanese content i.e. what is actually "anime", then it becomes less objectionable. Yes, it can distract as you pointed out, especially if not given the option to filter them out, and it maybe opens the doors for more of these kinds of debates ("why can't X be added when Y is added?"). But I think if the distinction is clear between anime, aeni and donghua, and there isn't actually an attempt to class the latter 2 as something which they are not, and the website name exists due to the core focus...then I suppose there isn't too much to be upset over...even if the website name does become a bit of a misnomer.
Though it does highlight, why should MAL stop at China and Korea? May as well include other countries also and just clearly tag them in equal fashion (especially surrounding Asian countries with overlapping similarities in their content and which could do with some recognition)...maybe it just becomes too unmanageable and too much work for admins and mods, but makes me think that something like Boku No Daemon should maybe be accepted afterall.
| @manganime88 Unfortunately, I wouldn't know when it was added on A-P either, but I do know that the same countries qualify, likewise on AniDB, Anilist, aniSearch, and Kitsu, so excluding them would really make MAL an outlier. AniDB, Anilist, Anime-Planet, and aniSearch all have separate tags/categories for these works, with aniSearch additionally having this for animation across Asia. On the manga side, Anime-Planet also has tags for OEL (https://www.anime-planet.com/manga/all?include_tags=923), OFL (https://www.anime-planet.com/manga/all?include_tags=1059), OGL (https://www.anime-planet.com/manga/all?include_tags=1061), and even Thai comics (https://www.anime-planet.com/manga/all?include_tags=921). AniDB also has tags for all co-productions: https://anidb.net/tag/6173/animetb And even the occasional outlier that MAL doesn't allow: https://anidb.net/anime/9201 (Singaporean production). So MAL really is behind on implementing this. It has been requested many times, and I am finally hopeful it will come out since they recently added new types (e.g. TV Special). I completely support adding more countries to the database, but gradually and only after the types/tags have been added so people can filter accordingly. The ideal state in my opinion would be something like the Chinese animation database Bangumi. They allow worldwide animation and notably when you look at the top ranked works, the majority of them are still Japanese (https://bangumi.tv/anime/browser?sort=rank). The same can be said for Japanese animation databases which allow all countries (https://www.anikore.jp/pop_ranking). I do think some American series would be more popular over here, but it goes to say you can run an animation database where anime is still the main focus. |
|
| The only sensible arguments are for database expansion, nothing should be ever removed from the DB unless it was a mistaken troll submission or something. |
| its stupid how scott pilgrim isn't seen as an anime even though its 100 percent an anime (in both its soul and its dna), to the point where even the books may be consitered manga and the game could be consitered a japanese arcade game (the only thing i could think of thats related to scott pilgrim thats not an anime is that live action movie that came out in 2009, and thats because it features american actors with an overall american vibe similar to the 1960s batman rather than the anime vibe of the rest of the scott pilgrim series) imo anything that has an asian, european or even canadian vibe and isn't deliberately copying anime in name only just for profit (like avatar the last airbender or korra or even that one no frills ad) and has that distinct anime aesthetic (ie having bright colors, cool sounds, distinct emotions, cute girls or an exotic yet scientifically feasible theme compared to western cartoons) classifies as anime imo to get technical a bit theres a big difference between something like pingu or any rankin bass film to something like gumby (athough frosty the snowman is not an anime as that was created by one of the people who worked on mad magazine which is american) or sylvanian families/calico critters/lil woodzies/maple town compared to something like mlp or care bears same with something like hello kitty, mr men, bloody bunny and aggretsuko compared to something like invader zim or the minions or even something like pokemon, bakugan, battle bdaman and digimon compared to something like neopets, bionicle, transformers or zoobles (but there are some transformers series that ARE anime like the original 2000 version of robots in disguise or the victory series and classic lego from between 1973-1999 could also be considered anime like as classic lego has sort of an anime appearance and vibe unintentionally compared to modern lego which goes for more of a western vibe these days, and zoobles is not anime like bakugan as it has more in common with viva pinata or similar rareware games or the sparkledog/sparklecat movement of the late 2000s/early 2010s than something like tamagotchi) even specific animation memes with the anime aesthetic sorta counts as anime compared to something like digital circus or helluva boss (which have more in common with toy story, gorillaz or again invader zim as opposed to something like undertale, higurashi or cave story, which has moments that can be considered anime like) and thats just because most piece's of media the world consumes has some anime influence without people even knowing it and when i mean everything i mean everything thats good in our world just to give you an example of something even the most minuit those momo and lucky google doodles sorta counts as anime (due to momo having a klonoa/niko oneshot like appearance and lucky's google doodle being inspired by jrpgs like final fantasy or again jrpg style games like undertale) and even most fanart you see on the internet (including certain furry artwork) has some anime influence in it as a way to make the artwork and its characters more attractive and appealing diverging from anime for a bit its the same reason why skrillex or tiesto doesn't count as classic eurodance/trance/deep house/jungle etc but some vocaloid, jpop or animation meme songs do to a point or how board games, trampoline places, planetariums/museum exhibits or indoor sports dont count as video games but something like karaoke, slot machines, pachinko, arcades, pinball, 4D rides, flight simulators, VR and even game like motion comics like homestuck or sonic chaos adventure do im out |
baliebox4916Jan 5, 2024 5:19 AM
Reply to PhuckFiller
Global markets are starting to have years where they are overtaking Japan on Anime revenue. I imagine situations like this one and Edgerunners will become more common as there will likely be increased collaborations between countries. Maybe the definition should be re-evaluated.
| @PhuckFiller There is no situation with Edgerunners, what those very bad responses by that mod doesn't address is that Edgerunners was made FOR the Japanese market first and foremost, it was created with the intent of promoting the game within the Japanese market. Go and look into it if you don't believe me. |
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Reply to Nyron
@CwittzSionnach it was literally added to the database the day it was announced, and they (cyruz and the cabal of like 3 other db mods) decided the millions of users on this cursed site shouldn't be burdened by seeing such a baka gaijin production
| @Nyron So you can't watch something just because it's not in this site's Database? Is this site magically forcing you to not be able to view it? Also doesn't this site only have like five database mods, so wouldn't that be all of them except one?.. |
KristiwazhereJan 5, 2024 11:11 AM
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| I think things animated by a Japanese studio should just be included for database reasons. Being able to see everything a studio has done just makes sense. Especially over just caring about whether it's Japanese enough or not. There are non-japanese asian things already on mal, if the rules are contradictory and you have to justify them by saying "it's a combination of factors and not just one thing" why even bother having rules |
JKKHJan 5, 2024 1:03 PM
Reply to JKKH
I think things animated by a Japanese studio should just be included for database reasons. Being able to see everything a studio has done just makes sense. Especially over just caring about whether it's Japanese enough or not. There are non-japanese asian things already on mal, if the rules are contradictory and you have to justify them by saying "it's a combination of factors and not just one thing" why even bother having rules
| @JKKH Honestly I don't care about Scott Pilgrim, I'm not a fan of the franchise and even if I was I wouldn't care one way or the other. But I will say I'm not for adding things just based on if it's animated by a Japanese studio. What you might not realize, and why they have the Japanese audience thing, which they should really update to say asian audience just to get people to shut up about that part, is that 90% of american cartoons from the 70s - the 90s were animated by Japanese studios, you'd have things like He-Man, and GI-Joe and one of the seasons of Tiny Toon Adventures on here if they did away with that rule. At the end of the day I don't see why any of this matters, whether or not a website approves something as anime does not factor into my enjoyment of said media. |
KristiwazhereJan 5, 2024 1:22 PM
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Reply to Kristiwazhere
@JKKH
Honestly I don't care about Scott Pilgrim, I'm not a fan of the franchise and even if I was I wouldn't care one way or the other.
But I will say I'm not for adding things just based on if it's animated by a Japanese studio. What you might not realize, and why they have the Japanese audience thing, which they should really update to say asian audience just to get people to shut up about that part, is that 90% of american cartoons from the 70s - the 90s were animated by Japanese studios, you'd have things like He-Man, and GI-Joe and one of the seasons of Tiny Toon Adventures on here if they did away with that rule.
At the end of the day I don't see why any of this matters, whether or not a website approves something as anime does not factor into my enjoyment of said media.
Honestly I don't care about Scott Pilgrim, I'm not a fan of the franchise and even if I was I wouldn't care one way or the other.
But I will say I'm not for adding things just based on if it's animated by a Japanese studio. What you might not realize, and why they have the Japanese audience thing, which they should really update to say asian audience just to get people to shut up about that part, is that 90% of american cartoons from the 70s - the 90s were animated by Japanese studios, you'd have things like He-Man, and GI-Joe and one of the seasons of Tiny Toon Adventures on here if they did away with that rule.
At the end of the day I don't see why any of this matters, whether or not a website approves something as anime does not factor into my enjoyment of said media.
| @Kristiwazhere American studios outsourcing animation to Japanese studios is a bit different. For Scott Pilgrim the animation is entirely handled by Science Saru. But if their animation is fully done by a Japanese studio I wouldn't really care about them being included either. It might be like how it was when Pingu first got added all over again but whatever lol. I don't care about what counts as anime or not, I think I'm more interested in having a more complete catalogue of production info. |
JKKHJan 5, 2024 1:57 PM
Reply to deg
the only explanation to this is that MAL does not treat its rules as retroactive
| @deg But they do that. For example, from https://myanimelist.net/anime/2572/Fushigi_no_Kuni_no_Alice (which is an international co production), they cut the episode count from 52 to 24, because only 24 aired on Japanese TV. |
Reply to Cacti_Finder
@Kristiwazhere Because its splitting hairs, arbitration for the purely the sake of arbitration.
People will keep using Afro Samurai as a measuring stick because while it is animated by studio gonzo, it wasn't given a japanese dub, just subtitles. And it wasn't marketed to a japanese audience.
People would roast Afro Samurai alive today and call it "anime-inspired" if there was no japanese dub for it and it was done first for a western audience.
People will keep using Afro Samurai as a measuring stick because while it is animated by studio gonzo, it wasn't given a japanese dub, just subtitles. And it wasn't marketed to a japanese audience.
People would roast Afro Samurai alive today and call it "anime-inspired" if there was no japanese dub for it and it was done first for a western audience.
| content of this post deleted because I do not wish to engage with these people any longer, do not respond, thank you, I don't care, goodbye |
KristiwazhereJan 8, 2024 8:05 PM
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| They were both animated by Japanese studios with Japanese staff. And, if Shelter belongs here (a music video for an American EDM artist), so do both Scott Pilgrim and Afro Samurai. |
Take care of yourself |
| They should add Scott Pilgrim if they added Ninja Kamui. |
| HACKs! 🤢🤮 |
| It’s on anidb now https://anidb.net/anime/18283 |
| HACKs! 🤢🤮 |
Reply to Old_School_Akira
| @Old_School_Akira I guess it was never about AnimeDB then? Two months later and nothing. |
| That is interesting... I didn't know that the Scott Pilgrim anime isn't listed here. |
| Scott Pilgrim remains a better anime than most of what came out in 2023 regardless of what some seething mod thinks. |
| "No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!" |
| yet there's chinese movies from before 1950's on the website lmao |
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