| Reasons why I don't like shoujo would be I don't like reverse harems and I don't like how flowerheaded most of the shoujo mc's are most of the times. If i like shoujo then thats special xD but yeah my reasons to not liking most shoujo example i liked chihayafuru (should be a shoujo) only cause of taichi , i hate chihaya same for fruits basket which is a masterpiece but i hate tohru lol |
 "𝙹𝚞𝚜𝚝 𝚕𝚒𝚔𝚎 𝚊 𝚋𝚘𝚡 𝚘𝚏 𝙲𝚑𝚘𝚌𝚘𝚕𝚊𝚝𝚎𝚜" Signature by -Tony- |
MalchikRepaid said: Some of those could be interesting, but I suppose you'll need to watch k-dramas. BerriesSan said: Josei is like a forgotten demographics since early 2000s. It's kinda depressing.lowkey josei is the most shunned |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
Kermomancer said: Miura was also inspired by Pygmalio, another shoujo manga. I know this because it's the only thing Pygmalio is remembered for. It's sad that someone who read such great manga couldn't write one himself.Not to mention cases like Berserk, a very violent and sexual dark fantasy seinen manga, being directly inspired by shojo manga like The Rose of Versailles. Sylpheline said: That is what I think whenever I see someone defending explicit manga demographics.ordinary books are classified by narrative genres since forever without people feeling lost in libraries i dont see how it would be so different for mangas |
| その目だれの目？ |
| Thanks Lucifrost i feel less alone knowing you think that too. Never understood why so many people defends the western use of such demographics that we dont even fully understood here due to cultural gap anyway. |
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| its not that deep anime have more fanboys in general, literally nobody has shunned shoujo genre, even some guys like to watch shoujo anime too, shounen is more popular because since the beginning anime is mostly boys thing. just like how kpop is mostly girls thing. theres no need to complain and whine why something originated as MALE SPACE is dominated by MALE, also no im not a man im just being objective here. this is like complaining why video games are dominated with games for boys instead of girls. |
mayoiko said: That anime is mostly boy thing and boy dominated since the beginning is in itself a very disputable claim that have nothing really objective...and even more so that it's still now when most of big anime have a mixt audience. Many people did shun shojo...OP did use in their first post a huge list of them to prove her point. And after 3 pages of arguments no one really find anything really convincing to disprove it yet so i doubt you will. Also video game always had and still have just has many women gamers as men. Its a tired old marketing stereotype i thinked faded at Wii time that video games are for boys mostly. Also nobody here said shojo must replace shonen as the main anime genre and so dominates the industry...people just complain that they are fewer and fewer shojo anime made while lots of great shojo manga never had a anime adaptation. And the sells arent a sufficient answer to why it is so because some shonen that did sell worse than shojo have still more adaptations and some shonen anime that did make less sell than some shojo anime still have more goodies and marketing than them...that's were people start to get into more researched explanations of why such situation. And as a 30 year old i feel its clearly a legitimate complaint as i remember times were the situation for shojo anime was indeed way better so the industry can do better. It used to do so.its not that deep anime have more fanboys in general, literally nobody has shunned shoujo genre, even some guys like to watch shoujo anime too, shounen is more popular because since the beginning anime is mostly boys thing. just like how kpop is mostly girls thing. theres no need to complain and whine why something originated as MALE SPACE is dominated by MALE, also no im not a man im just being objective here. this is like complaining why video games are dominated with games for boys instead of girls. |
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Sylpheline said: first sentence and its already a denial, look back at most popular childhood anime, they are all for boys, the toys the merch are for boys mostly, pokemon, yugioh, dragon ball, etc, the otaku community are also filled with boys and men who grew up while remain being a fanboy, in contrast with girls, they watch anime like precure or something during their childhood and they MOVE ON to human celebrities etc. so MAJORITY of fans who SPENDS MONEY are MEN. just look back and remember when you were in school, who were more likely to like anime, was it your female classmates? or male classmates? you remember being a kid dont you? who were the one obsessed over beyblade or yugioh? was it boys or girls? lets just stop pretending like there are the same amount of female compared to male in this geeky fandom, just look at literally every geeky fandom ever even the MCU or DC fandoms most are men. want to know whats filled with women? kpop, want to explain why kpop have less men than women? or are you going to pretend half of kpop fans are men in equal amount with women as well? lol. whatever youre never going to admit the truth just for the sake of winning an argument, its over for you.That anime is mostly boy thing and boy dominated since the beginning is in itself a very disputable claim that have nothing really objective... |
CourtRoseFaerie said: I had a phase like that for a while. Glad I snapped out of it! Something else that bothers me is that "high school romance" shoujo can still be really good and have substance, and there's some good series that fit into that category. People just like to think that all shoujo is shallow.I know part of it is the general aversion of any media for women, especially media that teenage girls like. I don't know what society's deal with teenage girls is, but our interests are constantly mocked and treated as lesser. If a celebrity or a movie, or even a book series is popular with teenage girls, it's automatically seen as "cringey" or "bad". Like it's automatically a shallow, vapid, tasteless thing just because women and girls love and enjoy it. People stereotype shounen as "just fights and action" and shoujo as "just high school romance", but when people defend shounen and bring up other examples to prove that it's not the same, people listen. People don't do that with shoujo. No matter how many times we bring up Banana Fish, Yona of the Dawn, or Natsume's Book of Friends, no one will listen. They'll make excuses as to why they're "not shoujo" because they don't fit their predefined idea of what shoujo is. My theory is they don't want to accept that women's media has more nuance than they previously thought. Feminine things are seen as bad in our society. There's a reason so many girls go through the "I'm not like the other girls" phase. Rejecting feminine things makes them feel cooler and less like they're put into a box. I went through this phase back in middle school. I decided I hated pink, dresses, and shows for girls because I perceived being feminine as being weak and shallow. It's only when I fell in love with shoujo anime that I was really able to accept that I secretly really liked feminine things and they weren't shallow and useless. Sailor Moon, Yona of the Dawn, Snow White with the Red Hair, and Fruits Basket in particular were instrumental in that. (Though it's also perfectly okay for women to prefer masculine things and shounen, I'm just going on about how even women are conditioned to think of femininity as a negative thing.) I genuinely believe that every demographic has something to offer someone. I'll get my guy friends who are mostly into shounen and seinen to read shoujo, and then they'll offer me some shounen or seinen (usually more emotional works) that they like or think I'll like. Some shoujo hits have been Kitchen Princess and Yona of the Dawn, while I read and enjoyed Takopi's Original Sin recently for one friend and plan to read School Live for another. The people who limit themselves to just shounen and seinen are seriously missing out to a lot of great works, as well as perspectives different from their own, since shoujo and josei are written by women for women. I think the reason it's so underappreciated is due to the fact that women and girls who are unafraid of feminine things are the only ones to consume it. That's not to say it's not successful at all, since there are many regularly sales chart topping shoujo and josei such as Do Not Say Mystery, Honey Lemon Soda, and A Sign of Affection. (Interestingly enough, none of those titles have anime adaptations, while their shounen and seinen contemporaries do.) And yeah. That's kind of a weird ramble-y rant, but those are some of my feelings on the subject. |
The siren of a flightless bird Quietly destroying its cage Dance, until tonight, with a raised voice- For I don't want to lose hope! -Utsuro wo Aogu, Vivid BAS SQUAD |
| Sorry quoting dont seem to work but for mayoiko : Amusing really. Sorry but its you who deny actual facts here some proof : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2015/07/07/comic-con-2015-and-gender-parity-heres-why-the-geek-stereotype-is-nearly-dead/, i quote them " [font="georgia, \"Times New Roman\", serif"]Manga/anime, science fiction/fantasy and media fandom are 60- to 65-percent female."...sorry for you but Pokemon as many women in their fanbase, Pokemon Go had 63% of their players being female for an example, and yugioh, dragon ball, beyblade or yu gi oh indeed are shonen so have slightly more male than female fans but they are big enough licence that clearly girls obsessed by them is not a rarity at all...try see how far in popularity fanfics about such go in ff.net if you dont believe me on that one. Also most anime fangirls watch more major popular shonen than stuff like precure even if most do like some shojo anime also indeed. The industry knows that perfectly which explains the massive amount of bishonen in said show because they know they get more money by attracting both genders...which is not even feminism just basic commercial sense. When i was in primary school i had a group of 5 friends and we all loved manga and anime and that wasnt rarity, many people of all genders did and few were on tv so most of us did watch all the shonen and shojo that passed on tv at times were kids are in front of it. They werent that many to choose from so almost every body knew the ones that were popular at that time. And yes K Pop has more female than male fans indeed...but 25% of its fanbase is male which is probably more than you expected. As for comics and video games i quote the article linked above again : "Comics, videogaming, hobby gaming and toy collecting are majority male, usually in the 55- to 60-percent range" but when its came to casual gaming its get even 48% of gamers being women. And some gaming areas like RPG always had a lot of very dedicated female gamers. I mean shit tons of women love Final Fantasy for an exemple. I really wonder how you manage to be in geeky community so long ignoring all of them. Its pretty hard to do without massive blind spot. So before declaring something is over for someone next time try to makes argument that are actually based on some fact and not just your misinformed opinion.[/font] |
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maho_shojo_ai said: There is no other fanbase that obsess over this like the anime/manga fandom. I don't see debates on whether Mistborn is for a YA or older audience for girls or guys. If it was a manga/anime you betcha that a decent amount of debate would be over something that irrelevant. BilboBaggins365 said: Thank you! That's what I've been trying to tell people for years. All of these demographics are meaningless and cause pointless discussion over which series belong to which demographic. I wish they had never existed in the first place.I think it's pointless to care about demographics. Reality is it s a dark fantasy action adventure series with some political thriller/heist stuff. That is actually descriptive. That is how people should describe anime/manga. You tell me something is shonen and seinen and unless you follow up with battle shonen I have no idea what you are talking about. I like shonen. The YA writing style, action adventure shows or action adventure shows with a YA writing style lol? You can't discern that unless you ask people to clarify. It's mildly irritating. |
| Well some western manga editors seems to understand that but as long as they still a minority we will have this pointless debate about which manga is for whom as demographic forever or so it seems. Indeed its pointless a good example is how Ancient Magus Bride and Akagamin no Shirayukihime as very similar plot and main character...so much so that i sometimes confuse one with each other and i'm apparently not the only one to do this but somehow the first is shonen and the other is shojo therefore i know of guy who liked the first refusing to try the second...its absurd really. |
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| I'm confused...where do you find the time to care about something like this?? You wrote so much! I guess people don't watch it as much because the thumbnails looks old and boring AF! Plus the only good thing in there is Banana Fish. |
| opin·ion [əˈpɪnjən] NOUN
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BloomKIU said: I think they're just the vocal minority. Most anime fans I know don't mind shoujo, and have seen one or two. That said, I'd like to point out that many of the examples you gave of "shoujo-hate" that you've given aren't hateful, but are really just preference. There's definitely a difference. traed said: Perhaps "hate" was not the right word to use there, but that bit was part of the bait thread I copied off of haha@Fario-P I just see posts you look like you grabbed from the recemendation baord. Everyone has their own tastes and assumptions on genres and demographics based on their limited exposure. This is in no way unique to shoujo.  It's possible that some of these Recommendation requests weren't trying to be particularly hateful of the shoujo demographic, but many of these were from accounts that didn't even have a single shoujo title in them (yes I did actually check several of these before I used them as examples), so to me, it just seems like that these people are dismissing a whole demographic that has its own fair share of gems as any other demographic of manga from any sight of their interest just because it's known for romantic tropes and stereotypes that may be pretty prevalent but is not representative of all shoujo works. It's really sad that many people might never discover that series like Life and Fairy Cube exist because of this. I'm pretty sure there are some that actually were against the case because I'm pretty sure I recommended a shoujo to someone in the Recommendation board once back in my early forum years and got dismissed in a reply or something. I genuinely don't remember anymore, but the feelings of seeing "no shoujo" for no explainable reason and not even willing to give anything a try still burn through. But you two are right in that it could just be preference; there was someone not that long ago who I asked why they didn't want to try shoujo a chance and they did at least hear me out on my own question. So I'm willing to hope that the "no shoujo" thing isn't as deep as I feel it is. I mean hey, I make it pretty clear in my own Recommendation threads that I don't want ecchi or hentai, and I definitely never plan to see any hentai nor have I seen any in the past (not gonna completely dismiss ecchi cuz... well I mean I did end up buying Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt last year), so... well, while I can be a hypocrite with some things, I guess I can try to understand for some of these people not wanting shoujo it's probably just the same as me with explicit sexual content. ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ ⋆ ✶ Blackfire2340 said: I do try to not care if shoujo isn't as popular as most other types of anime, and do tend to stick to people who care about it just even slightly compared to myself. But if shoujo isn't all that cared about to the point where there's a very visible pattern of several people who never cared about it enough to try anything from the demographic among the anime community, then who's to say that there isn't a similar mindset offline and within the actual anime industry? Who's to say that may not be the reason why so much less shoujo anime are being produced nowadays than compared to the 90s or even the 2000s?Why do you care so much about other people's opinions? If you like shoujo anime/manga then enjoy it. There are plenty of other people who equally enjoy it. Who cares if it isn't as popular as shounen, isekai, and harems? I made this thread (separate from this similar thread I also made) because if you had actually read my original post and not skipped over it like a notable amount of users on this forum do, then you would know that I am an aspiring writer (of sorts) who loves the kind of stuff present in the shoujo demographic and wants to try to make more like it myself sometime... and to do that I want to get feedback from all kinds of people and their opinions on the kind of stuff I like and may end up creating in the future. I also genuinely want to know why I've seen a good amount of MAL users talking about not liking/caring about shoujo and want to see why they are not interested. I don't really want to be painting a toxic picture of shoujo fans with my copypasta'd threads, but I do want to form some kind of mutual understanding in that kind of way, if that makes any sense. |
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| Because the boys prefer watching shounen... and the girls too. |
| Just out of curiosity, I decided to do a bit of research and tally the most common genres and themes from the most popular shoujo anime of all time (excluding sequels) and here are the results: Looking at the top 3 most common genres and themes here, I think it might have less to do with people not liking the shoujo demographic, and more to do with people just not preferring the whole "Romance, Comedy, Drama, School" combination of anime. Anime that center around those types of genres along with the school theme, seem to me like one of those "love it or hate it" type of anime, and is likely more popular among female audiences than male audiences in general. I also get the feeling that there might be more male anime fans than female anime fans around the world, so this along with the other reason might be a couple of reasons why shoujo is not as popular as shounen and seinen. |
Fario-P said: I do try to not care if shoujo isn't as popular as most other types of anime, and do tend to stick to people who care about it just even slightly compared to myself. But if shoujo isn't all that cared about to the point where there's a very visible pattern of several people who never cared about it enough to try anything from the demographic among the anime community, then who's to say that there isn't a similar mindset offline and within the actual anime industry? Who's to say that may not be the reason why so much less shoujo anime are being produced nowadays than compared to the 90s or even the 2000s? I made this thread (separate from this similar thread I also made) because if you had actually read my original post and not skipped over it like a notable amount of users on this forum do, then you would know that I am an aspiring writer (of sorts) who loves the kind of stuff present in the shoujo demographic and wants to try to make more like it myself sometime... and to do that I want to get feedback from all kinds of people and their opinions on the kind of stuff I like and may end up creating in the future. I also genuinely want to know why I've seen a good amount of MAL users talking about not liking/caring about shoujo and want to see why they are not interested. I don't really want to be painting a toxic picture of shoujo fans with my copypasta'd threads, but I do want to form some kind of mutual understanding in that kind of way, if that makes any sense. What are you talking about? Do people stop making romantic drama/comedy movies because they don't have the same box office as Marvel, Star Wars, and Fast and the Furious movies? There is nothing to understand. People watch what they enjoy. There is no deep meaning behind it all. Someone watched Death Note and liked it. They watched Maid-sama and didn't like it. That's it, and it's fine. It simply isn't in their interest, it doesn't make their opinion wrong and it doesn't make the shoujo anime bad. Think of it this way. You have 2 movie watchers. Person A is someone that despises superhero films and think they are "ruining" cinema. Person B is someone who loves superhero films and has watched every MCU film and TV series. They've even read a few comic books. When the Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 movie comes out this weekend, whose opinion is going to be more helpful for you? You can look at it in a different ways. Person A hates all MCU films, so its safe to assume they likely won't enjoy GotG 3. However, if they end up liking the movie for some reason, it would speak highly for the film because its a genre they typically hate. On the other side, Person B is considered a fanboy, and will say every MCU film is good, so that isn't helpful either. But again, if they dislike it then that movie must have done something terribly wrong that even a fanboy didn't like it. It comes down to the type of person you are. If you are a big MCU fan like Person B, then you are more likely to agree with them than Person A. You said you're a writer, correct? Why on earth would you want feedback from people who aren't interested in your genre? They aren't going to like it no matter what because it isn't what they are interested in. Your book/script isn't going to be the magical piece that sways them over. You want people who are already interested in the shoujo genre to tell you what they like/dislike about different projects. |
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| It's not hard to understand, it's always been more socially acceptable for women to get into things aimed at men than it is for men to get into things aimed at women. THat will obviously limit the discussion of it. |
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kusairo said: I really think you hit the nail on the head. Those genres all exist in shounen too, but they aren't any more popular than their shoujo counterparts. More people would rather watch action shows, and there's little need for battle shoujo if girls are happy with battle shounen.Looking at the top 3 most common genres and themes here, I think it might have less to do with people not liking the shoujo demographic, and more to do with people just not preferring the whole "Romance, Comedy, Drama, School" combination of anime. Anime that center around those types of genres along with the school theme, seem to me like one of those "love it or hate it" type of anime, and is likely more popular among female audiences than male audiences in general. I also get the feeling that there might be more male anime fans than female anime fans around the world, so this along with the other reason might be a couple of reasons why shoujo is not as popular as shounen and seinen. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: Thanks! And yep, agreed 👌 Oh and I just realized I forgot to mention another point in my earlier post. Guys who would much rather watch romantic comedy shoujo over shounen and seinen are likely in the minority, and there are also a lot of girls that prefer watching shounen over shoujo in general.kusairo said: I really think you hit the nail on the head. Those genres all exist in shounen too, but they aren't any more popular than their shoujo counterparts. More people would rather watch action shows, and there's little need for battle shoujo if girls are happy with battle shounen.Looking at the top 3 most common genres and themes here, I think it might have less to do with people not liking the shoujo demographic, and more to do with people just not preferring the whole "Romance, Comedy, Drama, School" combination of anime. Anime that center around those types of genres along with the school theme, seem to me like one of those "love it or hate it" type of anime, and is likely more popular among female audiences than male audiences in general. I also get the feeling that there might be more male anime fans than female anime fans around the world, so this along with the other reason might be a couple of reasons why shoujo is not as popular as shounen and seinen. |
GinInYourJuiceMay 1, 2023 9:58 AM
Frosteek said: This is definitely the main driving force for making this thread. I've seen enough of this happening that made me want to ask them... "why?" What is it about these people that say these things without having tried much of what's considered for that demographic? What do those who have tried some (who I at least don't get much annoyed at cuz hey, they did at least try) find uninteresting and/or unappealing about it? Is it possible to change some of these minds and maybe give them just the right shoujo to make them realize that most good shoujo aren't that stereotypical?I'm positive that most people I see who talk about how much they dislike shoujo, or talk about how all shoujo anime are the same, or try to avoid shoujo when asking for recommendations, have little to no actual experience with shoujo. Most of the time, all they seem to know about it is a little general knowledge of what it means as well as one or two memes or stigmas. I think they often feel obligated to not like it because of those stigmas they have about it. Pretty funny how people deny this happening despite me opening the post with a huge list of examples, but I've gotten used to the forums not wanting to read anything, so I actually kinda half expected it. Oh well. |
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| @Fario-P, these days it seems all you ever do is rehash the same complaints in every thread you make. It is time to move on, or at least focus your energy into something more positive, instead of this continual hole of negativity you bury yourself in <3 |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| " This is definitely the main driving force for making this thread. I've seen enough of this happening that made me want to ask them... "why?" What is it about these people that say these things without having tried much of what's considered for that demographic? What do those who have tried some (who I at least don't get much annoyed at cuz hey, they did at least try) find uninteresting and/or unappealing about it? Is it possible to change some of these minds and maybe give them just the right shoujo to make them realize that most good shoujo aren't that stereotypical? Pretty funny how people deny this happening despite me opening the post with a huge list of examples, but I've gotten used to the forums not wanting to read anything, so I actually kinda half expected it. Oh well." Well...from what we gathered as answers the conclusion is that people who dont try shojo are of two categories, one is people who just dislike romance...they probably would be ok with shojo matching their interest if it wasnt a classic romantic one so those people just have their tastes romance isnt a part of I think its respectable and others are indeed people who fear touch any fiction "for girls" so wont touch shojo out of this prejudice for this one i feel its sad missed opportunity of daring to find some stuff "for girls" they can actually like which could get them a less rigid view of girls interests as doomed to be boring for them which can very well not be true as stuff "for girls" shojo included variates enough that many people and yes many guys also find some stuff they like in it one day or another especially if they really like anime and manga already as many codes navigates from one demographic to another so look at what they already like and got them shojo that is close to their taste without specify the demographic if they didnt told you they want no shojo at all ever...they then might like it and change their perspective to say at least they liked one shojo, now for the ones who really dont want any...well dont force them to try stuff they wouldnt like anyway it'll push them further away from the demographic with a negative experience with it and also they have the right to choose what kind of manga/anime they watch/read so respect their choice not to try it, this lack of curiosity is sad but we all have stuff we probably should try but arent motivated to anyway and at the end of the day its just leisure they can take pleasure in another way with other fictions that will not end the world. As for the one who tried and disliked well...i'm ok with them each person have their own tastes. For why they did well...many just dislike the lack of action in it apparently, or that its too often romance to catch their interest besides a few titles that arent, or dislikes many tropes that come in most shojo stories and i'm ok with them (and kind of one of them if i'm honest because i love a lot of shojo but usually the one i do love get pretty outside the classic highschool romance formula that do bores me fast usually except for a bunch of truly well done classics of that style) so yeah part of shojo issues with popularity probably is its own lack of diversity and frilosity to go outside of their old recipes lately that got people interest get elsewhere. Like before Attack Of Titan many people were bored in shonen fandom thinking new shonen were boring and not daring new stuff and when it came many found it refreshing and reiginiting their passion for shonen and shojo has been lacking the same kind of stuff lately if i try my best to take to it a objective look that takes legitimate critics of it into account I could see that. But then...many people who did indeed try and liked one or a few shojo admitted what stopped them to try more wasnt that it was boring and not appealing to them (which to me are ok reason not to try more of some fiction style so i wouldnt try to change their tastes because i think it would be both pushy and waste of time because we all have stuff we like and dislike and its ok that people do not have a taste for shojo i mean i'm very motivated to get people to try it but if they did and they know it isnt for them i dont see that has a issue all tastes exists in nature you and them can get pleasure from different manga demographic its cool that everyone's different)...but that they fear being seen as not a man/gay/not a feminist/too girly a girl etc...that kind of stuff if they got more interest in it and/or show it in public because of shojo readers/watchers bad reputation...therefore many pretend to dislike shojo and in fact do like them... I have no interest in changing people taste if its just that shojo isnt their thing but these two categories of people the ones so insecure they fear touching anything "girly" and the ones that indeed are interested but ashamed to try because of the generalized mentality that girly interest are bad are the ones i'm sad for and want to get to past over shojo reputation to at least try before saying they dont like it to be sure they dont miss stuff they might like for the first ones and to dare more as its ok to accept the part of themselves who like this "girly" stuff in reality for the second one. For the others who its just isnt their thing to each their own i'm 100% ok with them. Its often misinterpreted my passion for this topic as being a fight against shonen being the most popular no i totally get what it is and watched/enjoyed a lot of shonen myself and totally understand that its more diverse and popular and why...i just wish shojo to be less shunned for these two category of people to stop missing stuff they could enjoy due to prejudice that is all. If i fight for these so hard and look like its losing time to some its just because i really think if such blockage be solved and people got more daring in that they could enjoy stuff that get them happier in fact that is all. |
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EndlessMaria said: Hey Maria, thanks but I'd take your sentiment more seriously if it weren't for this private message you sent me@Fario-P, these days it seems all you ever do is rehash the same complaints in every thread you make. It is time to move on, or at least focus your energy into something more positive, instead of this continual hole of negativity you bury yourself in <3 maybe is it okay that the vast majority if people think shoujo is trash. like how you thought my comic was trash I really didn't think your comic was trash, I basically told you in your server that I didn't understand all the lore behind it and why I didn't. I'm sorry if you didn't want my feedback at all or didn't find it constructive enough, and it seems like you were really hurt, so that's why I left and wasn't sure how to respond to your messages asking me to come back. Maybe I shouldn't come back if you're still angry at me and was angry enough to vent to Crow about something he didn't see for himself and therefore had no context for. I'm getting some mixed signals here... I guess I will just leave you alone |
Fario-PMay 2, 2023 2:34 PM
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| It's not "less popular" it's just limited, unlike these genres, shoujo adaption are really limited and there isn't many shoujo anime that's why it's not as popular, but take a look at manhwa (korean manhwa) shoujo and josei dominate almost all the other genres, and so many shoujo fans became manhwa fans since Japan doesn't care about shoujo fans and don't adapt the shows, both shoujo and shounen sell well, but the anime side kf shoujo is extremely limited, take a look at madoka magica for example, the demographic should be shoujo, shoujo shouldn't just be about Romance, but everything else including action, horror etc that are targeted towards females. Or bocchi the rock, if it had a main male character they would've put the demographic shounen, despite the show being targeted towards female and most of the characters are females, there's still no shoujo tag, that's the problem with the anime shoujo demographic, they remove anything that isn't romance |
| There are some interesting answers here, but the simplest answer is often the best, and the simple answer is that shoujo is woke. The target audience for shoujo is women (rather than men), so since it doesn't pander to men it must be woke. |
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| Because it’s for women and all media for women are looked down and seen as inferior not only by the misogynistic men but sadly by a lot of females as well, it’s unfortunate but misogyny lead a lot of women to despise themselves and a as a result they project all their self-hatred on other women instead of the men and often look down on girls who like girly stuff and take pride In the fact that they are not as girly I know a lot of females in real life who prefer shonen over shoujo and believe that shoujo are all silly Have you not noticed that majority of the fictional characters that always receive hatred are always females especially ones who have stories that are centered around romance and love, people always criticize the portrayal of women in media and believe that female characters are badly written and inferior to male characters with only few exceptions but they praise the male characters, fictional female characters are also hated by female viewers just as much as they are hated by men which is all a reflection of how people view women in real life I believe that the only female characters who get away with criticism are either the cool, villains or crazy ones just like maleficent and harley quinn and the ones like Bella from twilight, main girl from vampire diaries, anastasia from 50 shades, main girl from the kissing booth are easier to hate The same applies to shoujo and josei To be precise, it’s the romance that leads people to hate media that are made for women and so it’s not strange that a lot shoujo are looked down because of their big focus on romance Female characters in shoujo that don’t have romance as the main plot are the characters who are considered well-written such as Kyoko from Skip Beat and Shiryuki from Akagami People also believe that stories with female protagonist don’t have much to offer which is why men and many women don’t watch or read shoujo or Josei and believe that they are similar since girls aren’t as physically strong as men, people assume that stories with female leads are just boring and have only drama and romance and not enough action or fighting scenes, they also believe that dark and action stories work better with a male lead rather a female lead and they are 100 percent wrong (legend of Korra is the biggest prove ) Of course their opinion isn’t correct because they are so many animes, mangas, movies and shows with well written and strong female characters but sense men now despise 3rd wave feminism and don’t agree with it, they also came to despise these strong female characters as well even though they didn’t mind them for a long time All of the reasons above are definitely a prove that despite all the rights that women have today, they will always be viewed as inferior so it’s not strange that media for women aren’t as successful as media for men ( I’m a guy myself) |
| Yeah definitively i have seen people supposedly feminist do TV documentary here on sexism in manga that did got in there shojo examples to Fruits Basket and Nana...because they thinked Fruits Basket was sexist because Tohru do housechores and Nana was sexist because Nana Osaki was the only cool girl and Nana Komatsu was a more classic girly girl...so that got them angry like wtf. Way to be way more sexist than the actual shows ignoring that Tohru is one character and many others female characters exists in it some horrible at housechores (Machi) just like the Soma guys...its not really gendered that much its just Tohru who is portrayed as someone who loves doing housechores individually not because she is a girl...and for Nana its even worse like way to miss the point when the whole show core story is about a friendship between two very different girls that were at first prejudiced agaisnt each other over how diffferent they are, meet each other because they have same name and then grow a real friendship past appearances...the level those critics stayed at. And yes not shojo but the fact that way more people hates Misa from Death Note for being a girly girl who falls for Light and cant see/care he abuses her...saying she is stupid while loving Light as a character for being a mass murderer and skilled manipulator (for these part partly because of how he got Misa and Takada in his pocket by serving them his sweet lies) never fails to bug me (you could argue she desserve hate for being a mass murderer too but this fly over most of her haters radar for the most part she is hated just for being a girly naive teenage girl who cant see her dreams of romance with Light is hopeless and if the fact she is a serial killer was important in her character bashing well Light wouldnt be so high in favorites here). Also the complete blank look some people get me when i learn them that some shojo as male lead...i had to show them the pages so they believe me. Now most men and many women rather shonen thats ok its their taste what really isnt ok is mocking the girls and guys who like shojo because of their taste. |
SylphelineMay 3, 2023 12:43 AM
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| @Sylpheline I quickly dropped Bakuman upon seeing it has a greater focus on characters than Death Note. After watching Platinum End, I hope more people realize Ohba isn't any better at writing males than females. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: I just finished Platinum End (as manga didnt see the anime) and i liked it in fact...yes it wasnt stellar nor deep but i found it enjoyable...and yes Obha is probably more good at plot part than character part put still tough they were not the deepest or less cliche ever for sure they were likable to me...i mean Mirai as a complete reverse of Light wasnt a bad idea that did change...yeah he isnt always the wisest but in shonen protag i've seen far worse...he was like a less well written Shinji in a way. I think people bash him a lot for not that bad character construction issues. I've not read Bakuman yet so cant say what i would think of it but from what i've heard most did love it so either the character arent so terrible or the plot is great. But i will try before judge. And yes...i admit i might be over gentle in my judgement for love of the drawings (their the kind i look upon a lot as a drawer myself so thats important to me in manga enjoyment) when it came to Death Note and Platinum End and i guess its likely will influence me positively when starting Bakuman. But we go off topic so if you want us to discuss that better elsewhere.@Sylpheline I quickly dropped Bakuman upon seeing it has a greater focus on characters than Death Note. After watching Platinum End, I hope more people realize Ohba isn't any better at writing males than females. |
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Lucifrost said: So I watched a couple episodes of it... Is this basically just a magical girl show? Like there's the cute mascot, transformation sequences with her playing the flute. It's a little lacking in pink, even by Madoka standards though. Vampire Miyu is an episodic horror series like Hell Girl. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
| Shoujo Manga artists are actually struggling to find publications, it's no secret.. I've seen that in a mystery drama from 2014 so it's been going on for a while |
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ryo-san said: Shoujo Manga artists are actually struggling to find publications, it's no secret.. I've seen that in a mystery drama from 2014 so it's been going on for a while Yes, because they are written similarly and most of them are pretty boring. |
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JaniSIr said: I can't say I disagree with your assessment.Lucifrost said: So I watched a couple episodes of it... Is this basically just a magical girl show? Like there's the cute mascot, transformation sequences with her playing the flute. It's a little lacking in pink, even by Madoka standards though. Vampire Miyu is an episodic horror series like Hell Girl. |
| その目だれの目？ |
ryo-san said: Do you have a source for that? I wouldn't be surprised if that's true, but this is the first I'm actually hearing this about shoujo manga-ka...Shoujo Manga artists are actually struggling to find publications, it's no secret |
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JaniSIr said: Lucifrost said: So I watched a couple episodes of it... Is this basically just a magical girl show? Like there's the cute mascot, transformation sequences with her playing the flute. It's a little lacking in pink, even by Madoka standards though. Vampire Miyu is an episodic horror series like Hell Girl. The TV series is kind of like that, though without the optimism you usually find in these things, but the OVAs are a lot better. |
logopolis said: JaniSIr said: So I watched a couple episodes of it... Is this basically just a magical girl show? Like there's the cute mascot, transformation sequences with her playing the flute. It's a little lacking in pink, even by Madoka standards though. The TV series is kind of like that, though without the optimism you usually find in these things, but the OVAs are a lot better. I liked the part where they go: -Aren't you gonna help them? -Hell no. That's cute. But besides that I'm not really sold. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
Kermomancer said: I suppose it was to be expected lol. I need to watch more Star Trek, as I didn't recognize that name and haven't watched much of it.I came to this thread expecting some posts that read like they were written by Ferengi and, boy did this thread deliver. Some of you need to rethink your perceptions of women badly. |
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| @Fario-P Shoujo is no more shunned than any other genre in this medium. Just because you can selectively copy and paste quotes of random people trashing the genre on the internet doesn't mean anything nor should it really bother anyone in the 1st place. The problem with Shoujo Anime as a genre is that it simply just died out about a decade ago. Those who grew up with the traditional Shoujo anime romance wave moved on to watching stuff like K-dramas that even in my Wife's own words has told me, "Korean Dramas are just better to watch than Shoujo Anime these days." I have tried to watch "Maid Sama!" but dropped it after only 11 episodes. "Nana" was a good Anime up till a certain point then it just felt like it was dragging on too long and there was an obvious problem with pacing near the end (I am still shocked I still watched it all to begin with). The most recent Shoujo Anime I have finished watching recently was "Peach Girl" and to some degree I just felt like I wasted my time watching a bunch a bratty high school girls drama of back stabbing each other over boys. All of these titles were released during the Shoujo romance wave of the 2000s+. I think the only Shoujo romance Anime that I have watched released after 2010 that I genuinely enjoyed watching was "Ore Monogatari!!" and that came out in 2015. Since then I haven't really seen anything else other than "My Next life as a Villainess" which I wouldn't even call it a traditional Shoujo romance Anime. The main problem is that Shoujo is a genre that is specifically trying to target a certain demographic which is young females in an age where an overwhelming amount of viewers currently consuming Anime are males. Maybe this could change simply by eliminating the stigma of a Shoujo tag and start having more Anime released like "The Saint's Magic Power is Omnipotent". Where it's basically a Shoujo Romance at heart without a Shoujo tag. |
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ColourWheel said: Maybe this could change simply by eliminating the stigma of a Shoujo tag and start having more Anime released like "The Saint's Magic Power is Omnipotent". Where it's basically a Shoujo Romance at heart without a Shoujo tag. I actually like that show, having an adult cast tag goes a long way, but like the romantic development between the main couple is kind of the weakest point of the show by a long shot. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
JaniSIr said: ColourWheel said: Maybe this could change simply by eliminating the stigma of a Shoujo tag and start having more Anime released like "The Saint's Magic Power is Omnipotent". Where it's basically a Shoujo Romance at heart without a Shoujo tag. I actually like that show, having an adult cast tag goes a long way, but like the romantic development between the main couple is kind of the weakest point of the show by a long shot. Without mentioning any names or picking apart every Shoujo Anime I have seen, one could argue that generally the romantic development in quite a few Shoujo romances are pretty weak as well. |
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| most shoujo's are boring to me. I've watched and tried to watch some. the plotline are usually simple and fairly similar. and there is far less or rather, more humane fan service. the character design is also usually flatter -more realistic- Shoujo I liked (or at least managed to finish): -kaichou maid -kamisama hajimemashita -tonari no kaibutsu-kun -sukinayo Shoujo I dropped: -fruits basket -ore monogatari -kimi ni todoke and a few more I guess. like the term said, "shoujo" means they're targeted towards female audience with lighter romance theme. some user has said that thouse demographic now a days preferred real live drama over 2d series. and to add to that, most girl anime enjoyer I knew preferred BL over shoujo anyway. so tbh, it's probably over for shoujo |
| if you want good story, read novel. if you want good graphic, read manga. anime is beyond that. |
ColourWheel said: If you read the OP carefully, you'll see it makes only the briefest mention of romance and that Fario herself prefers magical girls. Shoujo magazines serialize stories in a variety of genres, or at least they used to. I know little about what kids these days are reading.I have tried to watch "Maid Sama!" but dropped it after only 11 episodes. "Nana" was a good Anime up till a certain point then it just felt like it was dragging on too long and there was an obvious problem with pacing near the end (I am still shocked I still watched it all to begin with). The most recent Shoujo Anime I have finished watching recently was "Peach Girl" and to some degree I just felt like I wasted my time watching a bunch a bratty high school girls drama of back stabbing each other over boys. All of these titles were released during the Shoujo romance wave of the 2000s+. I think the only Shoujo romance Anime that I have watched released after 2010 that I genuinely enjoyed watching was "Ore Monogatari!!" and that came out in 2015. Since then I haven't really seen anything else other than "My Next life as a Villainess" which I wouldn't even call it a traditional Shoujo romance Anime. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: ColourWheel said: If you read the OP carefully, you'll see it makes only the briefest mention of romance and that Fario herself prefers magical girls. Shoujo magazines serialize stories in a variety of genres, or at least they used to. I know little about what kids these days are reading.I have tried to watch "Maid Sama!" but dropped it after only 11 episodes. "Nana" was a good Anime up till a certain point then it just felt like it was dragging on too long and there was an obvious problem with pacing near the end (I am still shocked I still watched it all to begin with). The most recent Shoujo Anime I have finished watching recently was "Peach Girl" and to some degree I just felt like I wasted my time watching a bunch a bratty high school girls drama of back stabbing each other over boys. All of these titles were released during the Shoujo romance wave of the 2000s+. I think the only Shoujo romance Anime that I have watched released after 2010 that I genuinely enjoyed watching was "Ore Monogatari!!" and that came out in 2015. Since then I haven't really seen anything else other than "My Next life as a Villainess" which I wouldn't even call it a traditional Shoujo romance Anime. Yet if you took the time to read the examples the OP originally posted of other Users "shunning" Shoujo, it's almost exclusively focused on Shoujo Romance. This is looking beyond the fact that Shoujo as an Anime genre has really only ever had about a handful of successful franchises focused around magical girls in the 1st place. Any other Magical girl Anime this medium has pumped out is basically either targeting a male or general audience to begin with. |
ColourWheelMay 14, 2023 9:07 AM
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ColourWheel said: Most of these 50 magical girl anime were made for girls, and I count at least 7 that were popular enough to merit reboots. I don't believe there are anywhere near this many targeting a male or general audience.This is looking beyond the fact that Shoujo as an Anime genre has really only ever had about a handful of successful franchises focused around magical girls in the 1st place. Any other Magical girl Anime this medium has pumped out is basically either targeting a male or general audience to begin with. https://myanimelist.net/stacks/15905 Beyond that, I think it unfair to generalize an entire demographic based on its most popular genre. I wouldn't touch Shounen Jump if the magazine had only battle and sports manga. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Memore said: ryo-san said: Shoujo Manga artists are actually struggling to find publications, it's no secret.. I've seen that in a mystery drama from 2014 so it's been going on for a while Yes, because they are written similarly and most of them are pretty boring. Which shoujo manga have you read? it's possible you just ran into a series of duds |
The siren of a flightless bird Quietly destroying its cage Dance, until tonight, with a raised voice- For I don't want to lose hope! -Utsuro wo Aogu, Vivid BAS SQUAD |
yuurei_tokyo said: Which shoujo manga have you read? it's possible you just ran into a series of duds I have read many of them and most of them are typical and pretty standard. |
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Scavendgarr said: Probably because the targeted demographic prefer k drama the targeted demographic doesn't prefer k drama, the target demographic has no other choice because shoujo is so scarce we are in a loop, and it tightens |
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