A lesbians problem with yuri

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Dec 2008

2107

I'm a guy and I love yuri and hate yaoi. My fav yuri has gotta be Sasameki Koto.

Life Is Short But Intense.

Jan 30, 2019 8:16 PM

#53

Ahmed-99

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Oct 2018

2

I feel like the idea of fetishising gay men and women became very relevant! I actually ended some friendships of mine because it made me so uncomfortable....
I did read some yaoi manga and was full of bs.. like that only happens on the mind of someone who's not a gay man.. it's a guilty pleasure for sure. But we need stop tolerating some of their behaviour, specially men who like yuri and think that yaoi is gross and vica versa.

Jan 30, 2019 9:18 PM

#54

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Aug 2018

68

Manaban said:

Sachyan said:
I think she's more worried about how LGBTQ are portrayed in general, since it seems sometimes they are just there to appeal to very specific fetishes.

...that is not at all an exclusive thing to that group, though. Men are done the same. Women are done the same. Various ethnicities are done the same. Fetishization is extremely reliant on idealization and creating certain kind of contexts to cultivate the appeal of it. Sex itself is a more narrativized and idealized act when you get down to the psychology involved, and that happens to extend to sex appeal and forms of sexual attraction. Which does end up meaning that these works are often intended to be indulgent in nature and offer up idealistic portrayals to further fuel those underlying fantasty-oriented elements, and there's obviously going to be some kind of dissonance whenever things like what one finds sexually attractive is brought into the equation, no matter what environment you're doing that in. I'd be hard pressed to agree that having a character that is about appealing to a fetish in a sexualized work is an issue in of itself.

I'd probably be more apt to say that there'd be more of an issue in trying to take a character, then take their sexuality or gender or ethnicity, and trying to hoist that up as being representative of that entire portion of the population based on that element in order to decry or lambast certain kinds of portrayals on grounds of offense or insensitivity or not representing a gender or sexuality well, but meh. Whether it's being as treated as poor writing or not withstanding, it often comes off as neglecting individuality in favor of collectivism based on incredibly superficial aspects of somebody's identity, because I'm really, actually convinced that the people that compose any of these sort of "groups" are so simple that their gender or sexuality is the defining aspect of their entire identity and who they are as a person, and that sharing genitals or sexual orientation doesn't necessarily make them pretty much the same and being represented by a character who also shares those same aspects. Kind of like, I am a white heterosexual man from Germany. I do not see the ludicrous amount of awful people in fiction and media who fit those same traits and hold that up as something that's supposed to be representative of me. To do so makes absolutely no sense to me, because I know I am not like that and I know how I am and what I want to be like, even though I pretty much share the same base set of those areas that people tend to hold up as representative in some way with a lot of those villainous characters. But we share the same ethnicity, sexual orientation, and gender in many cases, which is pretty much the big three when it comes to these things. I think it's just foreigners having fun with their post-WWII good-over-evil thing, so let them do their thing, it's fine. Yet, if they meet one of these criteria, let alone all three, it gets hoisted up as a representative of the individuals belonging to this group, even if it's obviously something they explicitly don't consider to be the case. Or at least I'm convinced this uglier, more collectivist side of these kinds of things to bare its fangs a lot more when it comes to idealistic/sexualized portrayals, and it makes less sense to me in these topics than anywhere else, because it isn't even egregious or demonizing portrayals if you ask me, it's just...idealized and fetishized portrayals.

My issue isn't necessarily with advocating or pushing for certain kinds of portrayals one considers favorable, though, that just seems natural regardless of what the context is, but I don't like the demonization of these elements and ways of interacting and consuming media from the male audience's part that I feel is going on here to an extent. It not only feels short-sighted and lacking in perspective, but a bit vitriolic and haphazard in application. And considering that things don't operate in a vacuum, well, I do want to add that the OP that started this discussion is an actual mysandrist. Not in the polarized sense of using genderphobic terms that tends to be so prevalent these days, either misogyny or mysandry, but in the literal, explicit sense of it, with a stated, vindictive "eye for an eye" style M.O. for being so, which does kind of make me feel even more on edge about the intent of a lot of the issues being outlined and what's being asserted as the root cause of issues by the OP, honestly. Biased perception is pretty impossible for me to distance from them and the way this topic is being addressed, they center it on male audiences and how we sexualize things or do waifu-stuff or whatever so heavily, and then try to utilize their own sexual orientation to try to compound this. I'm not trying to be rude - I could be completely wrong, even - but I do feel like there's a degree of fork-tonguedness going on in this thread and that concerns me whenever it's being made into an LGBT+ issue that people are rallying around.

I guess for a metaphor, I don't think the issues should be whether other characters in the MMORPG are wearing bikini armor, basically. If you want your character to have a full set of armor that seems more practical and fitting to the character you want to play, then push for it, sure, that's totally fair game. But the OP and a lot of the discussion surrounding the outlined issues comes across like it's trying to make an issue of people who want to play characters who wear bikini armor. And no, I can't say I think this is a good way to approach the topic of wanting more of a certain type of portrayal. It's too finger-pointing and trying to treat the mere existence of certain kinds of people who want to see and interact with media in ways that the OP doesn't necessarily approve of as the primary issue with a lack of representation they consider positive for them, "it's those people who are the problem and this is a greater issue with the whole community we need to solve" is more or less how a lot of this reads to me, and that's kind of where I begin to draw the line at what's a productive and positive way of trying to push and advocate certain portrayals and what's a negative and hostile way of doing so.

I see you have a reasanable point here as well, and I kind of agree that there is nothing wrong with fetishizing or sexualizing a work, but I think the question here is not wether is fine fetishizing and sexualizing, but rather the specific and absurd fanservice underlying the industry.

I don't think that it's an issue to have things that appeal to specific types of people within a work, if that's what you're trying to say. Nor do I think that idealization for the sake of indulgence is really the primary issue of anything and that it kind of seems to be a scapegoat for a perceived lack of portrayals that fall in-line with the stated desire, but eh, that might be too presumptuous of me so I say that with a strong degree of hesitance.

I will be honest, I'm not entirely sure we're on the same wavelength with what you're trying to communicate with this paragraph because "the specific and absurd fanservice" is a bit vague, but I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that you're meaning the more sexually idealized portrayals of characters?

If anything, I think you can have both the sex appeal and the fair characterization, but to achieve that the community needs to change a little bit.

I think we already have that to larger degrees than the vast majority seem willing to be give credit for, but meh. I've argued that so many times and tried to provide all of the examples and perspective that I possibly could, but I don't really ever get met with much of a counter response other than "Yeah but characters who aren't well written and are heavily sexualized exist! I know they do!" which I'm much more convinced that's just poor writing and not an inherent problem of the way people interact with this kind of media or a symptom of a grander issue with the community that tends to surround such works, but I guess there's just something I'm missing out on here.

This comment is true in every possible regard. The most important thing to realize is that in anime (or any fictional medium for that matter), a "representation" of a character should never be conflated with reality itself; to do so is just ridiculous, because everyone knows that humans are far more complex and cannot be placed into a collective category. It makes zero sense that one can feel offended by the way a specific group is represented in media; it's not like the writers/developers claimed to be representing this group in the first place. This seems more to me like an opportunity to subtly jab at the oh-so-evil "male" audiences who don't see these "problems" with Yuri anime. I'm not gonna make any assumptions though; that being said, the misandrist persona of OP certainly doesn't invalidate this claim.

Jan 30, 2019 9:26 PM

#55

Aidoru-Ojisan

Offline

Apr 2013

2743

And now you know why I am happy the "actual" Yuri/Shoujo Ai series have started to get Anime adaptions recently. These toxic relationships for Shoujo Ai/Yuri anime were always there before the "true pure emotional" Yuri started to get Anime, these stains will still exist but seeing with how much good Yuri got adapted last year let's look towards a brighter future, or at least there's more true Yuri being adapted, still better choices with Manga for these genres like it's always been.

Aidoru-OjisanJan 30, 2019 9:30 PM

Ascended Taste
I only came back to this site for the forum sets and to promote my RYM list... Anilist ftw still :dab:

Jan 30, 2019 10:02 PM

#56

kronopy

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Dec 2014

1117

Anime fetishizes everything... incest, children, animal hybrids, high school, sports, murder... is not only about gayness. But is true that homosexuality is fetishized. I don't really get what do you expect. Those are written by straight peoples with a fetish. Women like Yaoi, men like Yuri, because two chocolates are better than one. Of course, it will be unrealistic and fetishized. Have you seen romance anime? Do they look realist to you? Most of them aren't, they are just a fetish, an idealized form of romance... Japanese are not romantic peoples. Their relationships would seem rigid and awkward from the Western point of view.
Yuri and Yaoi are simply written by peoples who have a fetish, or a passion for the genre, and it targets a demographics, who simply enjoy gay stories... but nothing more. Is not about the representation, that's something only Westerners care about, most of the peoples on this planet don't give a crap about it. It's all fantasy, and you shouldn't really expect realism. They are not meant to be a realist, they are meant to be entertaining. Japanese, like most of the countries of the world, are not really open to fully accept homosexuality in their society. My country, for example, has zero tolerance for it, and I live in Europe, we are part of EU. Even I, while not being against homosexuality itself, I am against gay marriage and rights, yet I had my share of Yuri ships in non-Yuri anime, and cartoons (#MarcelineXBumbleGum4ever)... And yeah, it's a fetish. But think about it. You don't need to be accepting towards something in reality, to enjoy it in fiction... I mean, think about the incest trend. I don't think that every anime fan out there wants to fuck his imouto. Is all just a fetish, that revolves around fiction, but has nothing to do with reality.

Jan 30, 2019 10:18 PM

#57

Tsunshine-Chris

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Jan 2018

412

Ironically Flip Flappers had an episode about how Yuri is treated in media as well as a few "bury your gay" trope subversions.

Of course they confirmed their relationship at the end but we never got a kiss. That bothered me. It's as if you either get all emotions and no true sexuality or no emotions and forced sexuality.

Bloom into You almost fixed this. Almost. I mark that up to the story premise, not whatever bogs down other romances.

This however, is really good. https://myanimelist.net/anime/36214/Asagao_to_Kase-san

Tsunshine-ChrisJan 30, 2019 10:22 PM

Jan 30, 2019 10:32 PM

#58

OnionKnightRises

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Jan 2012

2781

Yeah, the problem with these genres are they're not really there as stories that involve gay people, these stories basically just fetishize homosexual relationships. I don't particularly have a problem with that, everyone has their kink, but it becomes a problem when it's the ONLY available stories for that demographic. If half of the BL anime were just about sexualizing the dudes and being generic stories you see in every single BL and the other half being actual stories involving gay guys, I would have less of a problem with it, but the percentage of shows with actual genuine gay romance are barely even a percent. I'm not really saying we should have less of the former types of stories, but maybe we should at least have more of the latter.

I'm not even in any of these demographics, I'm a straight male that isn't into Yaoi, Yuri, Shounen Ai or Shoujo Ai. Just because I can't relate to someone's sexuality, doesn't mean I automatically can't relate to everything they do. I would like seeing some more relatable or realistic shows with characters that are part of a different lifestyle. I'm not gay, but I'm sure if there came a serious show with a likable male main character who has his own relatable struggles I'd totally watch it. I like good stories being told from a different perspective than my own. Same thing with Yuri anime.

Jan 30, 2019 11:52 PM

#59

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Jul 2018

561862

Tsunshine-Chris said:
Of course they confirmed their relationship at the end but we never got a kiss. That bothered me. It's as if you either get all emotions and no true sexuality or no emotions and forced sexuality.

This too, it's part of the purity-tropes for girls in general and the belief that women actually are cuter, purer, better (in personality) ...
So they are just cute with each other in a non-fetishized series or they are fetishized and then it feels forced.

And while I clearly see at @Electik that there quite many women, who like all of the idols etc., I must tell that watching Love Live was enough idol-anime for the rest of my life. xD It actually was not bad, but I can't see myself sitting down and watching much of idols or magical girl-series - I mean, the cute type.
And while CGDCT are also okay sometimes, it's similar to the genres above. I don't feel like I have the "patience" for that and also don't like the character designs overall too, but all of these series seem to have the most Yuri baits / actual lesbian ships out there.
I... I really might just need more Ymirs and Historias and Korras and Asamis in my fiction. 😂

Btw another thing is: In reality it's eerie that there are some guys, who either will treat you as a porn star (ooh look, lesbians!!!) or like their puppy.
They are basically the male counterpart of a fujoshi and we (friends and I) were unlucky enough to encounter a fujoshi, who squealed over my gay friends and all. It's viewed as a weird behavior in girls, but when a guy says "Hooot, lesbians", it's a little more normalized as a part of how they portray their sexuality. Do you know what? They are equally disgusting lol.

The other part of this is: Some people are just very egocentric and think and feel with their hormones more than with anything else too.
It's especially about these teenage boys and some adult guys, who are very vocal at hating gay men and are not capable of treating people they are not attracted to normally (well, they are just big show-offs in general too), but at the same time they "love" good-looking lesbians.

And it's eerie too to see people being so open about fetishizing gay people. I mean, I'm also able to watch and love a straight romance / sexual things without the obsession about them. Even heterosexual and gay sex scenes can be beautiful on an emotional level, even when it's not physically attractive. But it's not the level of: Wow, those straights in general are so awesome! xD

It's only fiction, yes, but it's not about the fiction per se. When you see their behavior in combination with the stuff, it's basically just like: Not this type of people again ...

removed-userJan 30, 2019 11:57 PM

Jan 31, 2019 12:24 AM

#60

Offline

Jul 2018

561862

Hello there,

I wrote you this tl;dr worthy response, but I'm just gonna focus on key points. It sounds more rude this way, and I don't mean for it to be. It's really a consideration for the time it would take to consume the information.

I always enjoy reading peoples perspectives on this media format, its often eye opening and refreshing. However, I do find it kind of irksome that your topic implies a personal problem, and then your paragraphs switch gears to call it an industry problem.

I am a bald man with two foot beard. I can kind of understand your angst when it comes to not being able to relate to these works of fiction. Bearded bald guys are always portrayed as deviants or Master Roshi types. It really doesn't bother me at the end of the day, because its still fiction and they didn't do it to spite me. They come from a culture where beards are associated with degenerates (or artsy types). What can you do?

You mentioned a lot of good shows and labeled them negatively. While I respect your opinions, it just seems you are trying to sacrifice these shows in an attempt to create something more favorable to you. While I can understand not liking their content, they shouldn't be held to any higher standards than any other Anime because they have a girl girl relationship. That just seems kind of odd. You also condemned male writers and later went on to enforce the "all men that watch anime are perverts with waifus" stereotype and that's not cool.
While its true some shows are written by men targeting a male audience, its still a work of fiction. They are not attacking you or the gay community. Also they are not attempting to brainwash or sell any kind of ideas or lifestyles. Its purely for entertainment. I laughed my ass off when I watched uzamaid, but I promise you its not going to change my views on real world lesbianism and or pedophiles.

I do hate you have ran into so many shows you didn't enjoy, but with resources like MAL and the MAL community, its really our own faults when we bite into a grapefruit hoping for an orange. I have to ask though, especially when it comes to your issues with a lack of commitment or disdain for obstacles. If they started cranking out shows where 2 people meet, fall in love, live happily ever after without the hesitations, reservations, or complications then what would be the point? The drama makes the non comedies go round.

Lastly we easily forget that the majority of anime come from different cultures, and we try to assert our views into works of fiction or add offence to them where it wasn't intended. #westernizedbigotry

Again I mean no offence, I promise you not all male writers or fans are out to lewd the yuri. I do hope you find more anime to fall in love with in the future.

Sincerely,
A straight guy's problem with a lesbians problem with yuri

removed-userJan 31, 2019 12:30 AM

Jan 31, 2019 2:21 AM

#61

Supernerd1992

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Jan 2019

28

Why is every complaining about a non issue

Jan 31, 2019 3:18 AM

#62

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Offline

Aug 2018

68

Electik said:

Grizzziff said:
Hello there,

I wrote you this tl;dr worthy response, but I'm just gonna focus on key points. It sounds more rude this way, and I don't mean for it to be. It's really a consideration for the time it would take to consume the information.

I always enjoy reading peoples perspectives on this media format, its often eye opening and refreshing. However, I do find it kind of irksome that your topic implies a personal problem, and then your paragraphs switch gears to call it an industry problem.

I am a bald man with two foot beard. I can kind of understand your angst when it comes to not being able to relate to these works of fiction. Bearded bald guys are always portrayed as deviants or Master Roshi types. It really doesn't bother me at the end of the day, because its still fiction and they didn't do it to spite me. They come from a culture where beards are associated with degenerates (or artsy types). What can you do?

You mentioned a lot of good shows and labeled them negatively. While I respect your opinions, it just seems you are trying to sacrifice these shows in an attempt to create something more favorable to you. While I can understand not liking their content, they shouldn't be held to any higher standards than any other Anime because they have a girl girl relationship. That just seems kind of odd. You also condemned male writers and later went on to enforce the "all men that watch anime are perverts with waifus" stereotype and that's not cool.
While its true some shows are written by men targeting a male audience, its still a work of fiction. They are not attacking you or the gay community. Also they are not attempting to brainwash or sell any kind of ideas or lifestyles. Its purely for entertainment. I laughed my ass off when I watched uzamaid, but I promise you its not going to change my views on real world lesbianism and or pedophiles.

I do hate you have ran into so many shows you didn't enjoy, but with resources like MAL and the MAL community, its really our own faults when we bite into a grapefruit hoping for an orange. I have to ask though, especially when it comes to your issues with a lack of commitment or disdain for obstacles. If they started cranking out shows where 2 people meet, fall in love, live happily ever after without the hesitations, reservations, or complications then what would be the point? The drama makes the non comedies go round.

Lastly we easily forget that the majority of anime come from different cultures, and we try to assert our views into works of fiction or add offence to them where it wasn't intended. #westernizedbigotry

Again I mean no offence, I promise you not all male writers or fans are out to lewd the yuri. I do hope you find more anime to fall in love with in the future.

Sincerely,
A straight guy's problem with a lesbians problem with yuri

i guess you could say i have a personal problem with the industry? this does affect me personally, as I’m always looking for good representation and it is lacking in the industry itself.
and though i try not to hold these shows at a higher standard, my point is more that there are so few shows to begin with and even fewer that do depict a good relationship. there are countless heterosexual anime and a larger portion don’t have a lot of the problems i mentioned but there are a tiny amount of yuri anime and a majority have the problems I’ve talked about. this isn’t holding them at a higher standard, but more expecting better onsidering how well a lot of heterosexual relationships are handled, if you get me!
and unfortunately for you I’m the kind who believes that fiction does have an affect on reality, whether you personally feel it won’t change your mind, that doesn’t stand for all people.
my comment about men and waifus, though a generalisation, is something i see often.. it is a “not all men” statement but I’d say a decent majority.
and just bc anime is from a different culture doesn’t mean that the problems in it should be pushed off as “that’s just how japan is”.... japan doesn’t have to be that way!
i understand they’re not attacking the gay community, i never said they were, but the ideas they hold can be harmful so i hope that more works that are a big more positive and healthy show up soon :)

Hm while your comment is respectable in itself, it makes too many unsubstantiated stretches. What is considered a "good" representation to you, may be the complete opposite for someone else; it's too subjective. Also as a lesbian, I'd imagine that you should know that it's illogical to claim that lesbian anime characters represent you personally, because your personality is what should define you, not sexuality.

Your point about heterosexual relationships being better handled than homosexual relationships can be explained by the fact that there are more anime series targeted to heterosexual demographics compared to homosexual demographics; of course there are gonna be more that are better handled, but you also gotta realise that there are more heterosexual relationships that are handled terribly, it's a matter of proportion.

Fiction affecting reality is where you step into very dicey territory and it really depends on the context. If you think anime has the power to maybe slightly influence your ideology or open a new perspective then maybe I'll give you that. But if you think that watching an anime like uzamaid is going to instantly turn you into a pedophile, or that watching a sexual harassment scene in an anime is going to instantly turn you into sexual harasser then you are objectively wrong. This is ultimately because almost all people realise the obvious disconnect between fiction and reality (and the very very small minority of people who don't are the ones who have genuine issues). I don't know the context of what you meant when you stated this so I won't make any assumptions.

The generalisation about men and waifus is probably true to an extent, not sure about whether it's a decent majority because I haven't found any evidence to suggest so, but lets just assume that's the case. Given this, I can just as easily make the claim that a "decent majority" of women grossly sexualise their "husbandos". Do you see the fruitlessness of making generalisations like this?

And the "problems" you have with Japanese culture are also subjective entirely to you. You're projecting Western values onto a non-western culture and conflating "differences" in their culture to "problems" in their culture. The jury's still out on whether what you consider to be problems are actually problems. What you consider to be harmful may not be what others consider to be harmful.

I mean no disrespect or anything like that, just humbly disagreeing on some of your points.

Jan 31, 2019 3:32 AM

#63

Apollo18

Offline

Oct 2018

341

lol If you're looking for enlightened, politically conscious social messages in anime (especially ones that appeal to western sensitivities, which are totally alien to Japanese attitudes), you're looking in the wrong place, and asking for disappointment. It's just not going to happen.

You might as well complain about the ethical ramifications of a tree, or campaign against the social inequality in an ant colony

Jan 31, 2019 3:34 AM

#64

Vorpality

Offline

Jun 2016

1225

Solution; go watch Bloom Into You right now.

Jan 31, 2019 4:04 AM

#65

jal90

Offline

Oct 2010

11839

Crackersauce said:
And the "problems" you have with Japanese culture are also subjective entirely to you. You're projecting Western values onto a non-western culture and conflating "differences" in their culture to "problems" in their culture. The jury's still out on whether what you consider to be problems are actually problems. What you consider to be harmful may not be what others consider to be harmful.

Uhhh that's a very bad take in general. You can't just block whatever criticism one makes towards moral issues of anime/manga with this sweeping generalisation called "Western values". One should understand that Japan is a different culture, but Japan being a different culture doesn't make abusive romance, lack of consent or harassment automatically acceptable. Moral relativism is fine to try to understand where other cultural paradigms come from, but it's not a free pass for nasty behaviors. And all of that not taking into account that your knowledge of Japanese cultural and social norm and to what extent these works are representative or accepted is probably minimal, if not anecdotal.

Jan 31, 2019 4:32 AM

#66

Offline

Aug 2018

68

jal90 said:

Crackersauce said:
And the "problems" you have with Japanese culture are also subjective entirely to you. You're projecting Western values onto a non-western culture and conflating "differences" in their culture to "problems" in their culture. The jury's still out on whether what you consider to be problems are actually problems. What you consider to be harmful may not be what others consider to be harmful.

Uhhh that's a very bad take in general. You can't just block whatever criticism one makes towards moral issues of anime/manga with this sweeping generalisation called "Western values". One should understand that Japan is a different culture, but Japan being a different culture doesn't make abusive romance, lack of consent or harassment automatically acceptable. Moral relativism is fine to try to understand where other cultural paradigms come from, but it's not a free pass for nasty behaviors. And all of that not taking into account that your knowledge of Japanese cultural and social norm and to what extent these works are representative or accepted is probably minimal, if not anecdotal.

Hmm yeah you're right, I didn't make the distinction between the problems within the culture clear enough. My point there was essentially that the line that makes a "scenario" into a "problem" may be different depending on the cultural context. For example, one culture may draw the line earlier as to what constitutes an abusive romance, or lack of consent or harassment for that matter, and that this needs to be taken into account when you compare both cultures. I'm not 100% certain but I assume in anime at the very least, that they draw the line as to what constitutes abusive romance, lack of consent and harassment much further than here in the west; and as a result gives an explanation to why these "tropes" play out with far more regularity. No it is not a free pass, but it's an explanation for the disparity between both western and non-western cultures, and therefore should at least be considered before making claims that the anime industry is fundamentally flawed.

But yes, you've got a good point about whether it's an acceptable thing that these traits exist and are even normalised to an extent in anime.

Jan 31, 2019 5:25 AM

#67

Offline

Jul 2018

561862

Crackersauce said:
Hm while your comment is respectable in itself, it makes too many unsubstantiated stretches. What is considered a "good" representation to you, may be the complete opposite for someone else; it's too subjective. Also as a lesbian, I'd imagine that you should know that it's illogical to claim that lesbian anime characters represent you personally, because your personality is what should define you, not sexuality.

Your point about heterosexual relationships being better handled than homosexual relationships can be explained by the fact that there are more anime series targeted to heterosexual demographics compared to homosexual demographics; of course there are gonna be more that are better handled, but you also gotta realise that there are more heterosexual relationships that are handled terribly, it's a matter of proportion.

Well, to me, "good" means normally handled as every other character there. It's not like I want an extra positive light on lgbt characters.

I never found that demographic-argument relatable, for me personally. If I'm able to understand someone from another gender and race (I don't even mean humans, like demons, elves etc), social stand, life circumstamces, personality and all, I'm able to undestand another sexual orientation too.
It's not like most people are ... Kyubey and don't understand someone else's basic feelings and reasonings. xD If they don't, then the majority of these people simply don't want to.
So, demographics are theoretically a kinda blurry thing.

Electik said:
my comment about men and waifus, though a generalisation, is something i see often.. it is a “not all men” statement but I’d say a decent majority.

It depends on...
From my experience: The guys, who are or were in a long term-relationship or something similar and you can talk normally to, don't act and speak like they are horny 24/7.

These were the guys, who are weird anyway. Even if they play a nice facade on the outside, you recognize that they still want to jump on every pair of breasts nyway and are so oversexualized, because they are desperated lol.
Or they just don't know to think about anything else, when they are speaking to a woman.

The guys, who acted normally towards us, also were less homophobic and don't sexualize women, straight or gay. Just a "hey, they are cute / beautiful" or something.
They simply don't need to, because the are with their girlfriend / fiancee / wife and therefore don't need to drool over lesbians so much and are happy for their gay friends / can stand watching a gay love story too, because they are no "threat" to them.
I don't know, my straight male friends never were so super horny. Not now, not in my school time. I guess, they just didn't need to. xD

removed-userJan 31, 2019 5:40 AM

Jan 31, 2019 5:38 AM

#68

Offline

Aug 2018

68

Maneki-Mew said:

Crackersauce said:
Hm while your comment is respectable in itself, it makes too many unsubstantiated stretches. What is considered a "good" representation to you, may be the complete opposite for someone else; it's too subjective. Also as a lesbian, I'd imagine that you should know that it's illogical to claim that lesbian anime characters represent you personally, because your personality is what should define you, not sexuality.

Your point about heterosexual relationships being better handled than homosexual relationships can be explained by the fact that there are more anime series targeted to heterosexual demographics compared to homosexual demographics; of course there are gonna be more that are better handled, but you also gotta realise that there are more heterosexual relationships that are handled terribly, it's a matter of proportion.

Well, to me, "good" means normally handled as every other character there. It's not like I want an extra positive light on lgbt characters.

I never found that demographic-argument relatable, for me personally. If I'm able to understand someone from another gender and race (I don't even mean humans, like demons, elves etc
), I'm able to undestand another sexual orientation too.
It's not like most people are ... Kyubey and don't understand someone else's basic feelings and reasonings. xD If they don't, then the majority of these people simply don't want to.
So, demographics are theoretically a kinda blurry thing.

Yeah for sure I agree with you personally about what it means to be a "good" representation, it's still in the eye of the beholder though. Oh and the demographic argument is not so much an argument as it is an observation, a reason as to why it is "expected" that there will be less yuri relationships that "measure up" to OP's standards; when the pool of anime is explicitly smaller than another, it's less likely that you will find an anime that lives up to your specific set of criteria in that said pool. It's simply not realistic to assume that every single yuri/yaoi creator should have the same ideology of what's considered a good representation, and what isn't. But yeah, ultimately I get what you're saying and respect it nonetheless.

Jan 31, 2019 5:51 AM

#69

logopolis

Offline

Apr 2012

3589

jal90 said:
Uhhh that's a very bad take in general. You can't just block whatever criticism one makes towards moral issues of anime/manga with this sweeping generalisation called "Western values". One should understand that Japan is a different culture, but Japan being a different culture doesn't make abusive romance, lack of consent or harassment automatically acceptable. Moral relativism is fine to try to understand where other cultural paradigms come from, but it's not a free pass for nasty behaviors. And all of that not taking into account that your knowledge of Japanese cultural and social norm and to what extent these works are representative or accepted is probably minimal, if not anecdotal.

The main thing about criticising works of a foreign culture from outside is that there will be all sorts of implications and communications and subtleties and things just having different meanings which you're likely to miss, because you don't have the same cultural familiarity as a native. So except in the broadest and most obvious of cases, you'll probably get it wrong somehow.

Jan 31, 2019 7:04 AM

#70

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Offline

Jul 2018

561862

Crackersauce said:

Maneki-Mew said:

Well, to me, "good" means normally handled as every other character there. It's not like I want an extra positive light on lgbt characters.

I never found that demographic-argument relatable, for me personally. If I'm able to understand someone from another gender and race (I don't even mean humans, like demons, elves etc
), I'm able to undestand another sexual orientation too.
It's not like most people are ... Kyubey and don't understand someone else's basic feelings and reasonings. xD If they don't, then the majority of these people simply don't want to.
So, demographics are theoretically a kinda blurry thing.

Yeah for sure I agree with you personally about what it means to be a "good" representation, it's still in the eye of the beholder though. Oh and the demographic argument is not so much an argument as it is an observation, a reason as to why it is "expected" that there will be less yuri relationships that "measure up" to OP's standards; when the pool of anime is explicitly smaller than another, it's less likely that you will find an anime that lives up to your specific set of criteria in that said pool. It's simply not realistic to assume that every single yuri/yaoi creator should have the same ideology of what's considered a good representation, and what isn't. But yeah, ultimately I get what you're saying and respect it nonetheless.

Ofc it's not realistic. They are individual people after all and not an automatically part of the industry or anthing.
And I know, the chance that there are many works fitting your expectations and taste is pretty low.

I also don't want to make it too political.
The both extremes of cliches are just unnerving in first place.
In second place, yes it's very good to show lgbt-people are just people too. And seeing characters, who aren't better or lesser people than everyone around them, really could build up kids and lgbt-teenager's self-esteem.
But when it comes down to it, it's annoying for me to see either the "pure, sweet angels"-stereotype or the "hot lesbian sex"-stereotype often.

The three SOL-Girls Love series that I liked so far were Bloom Into You, Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto. But all of the manga aren't finished at the end of the anime. Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto won't get another season after such a long time. 😅

These were the SOLs which are focused on the lesbian romance, but as another drama and subplot with a lesbian character and pair, more or less, I loved Scum's Wish as well.
You see, something like Netsuzou Trap for exampe didn't disturb me, because they didn't share a good relationship, it was about the assault that was shown as "this is sexy".

There is Koi To Uso:

... and you know what? The main guy is so flat that I believe them more than his relationship with Misaki lol. That was just lust from the very begin and well... He built up a relationship to Ririna, but he still felt like a very flat person. My former opinion was kinda dumb from my perspective now, although I still not love it. My main problem is still that the main guy is a flat harem guy with two girls and one guy revolving around him and you don't know why they care about him, but the last episode was very nice and ýou could see that coming.

And as I said Shinsekai Yori is a special case.

I also think most things stem from the Japanese culture at least.
And then there seem to be the thing: Girls can date another until they enter university. As an adult they are still expected to found a family with a man.
That's what I heard / read two times too at least.
The attitude towards lesbians isn't seemingly very serious, it's viewed as two very good, female friends cuddling with each other.
And the sexual assaults between women might not seen as such, because there is no guy involved and only sex, where a guy is involved, is counted as "real".

removed-userJan 31, 2019 7:27 AM

Jan 31, 2019 7:07 AM

#71

Grandassassin

Offline

Aug 2018

191

logopolis said:

Grandassassin said:
The only Yuri anime that I like is Rin Daughters of Mnemosyne, It's more mature with the depictions of Lesbianism but its a really good series that you should check out, If you can handle the mature content.

Mmm, not sure about that one. I mean, it is a good show, on a technical level, achieving the goals it sets out for itself, successfully conveying some tricky and worthwhile things. But as I remember, it is quite interested in the image of women being horribly tortured, and the central relationship is moderately fetishised too. It seems an example of something which is aimed at men rather than lesbians, contrary to the goals of this thread.

Well here’s the thing, yes it is fetishized with the informants and a little bit of Mimi always trying to kiss Rin, but one thing you need to understand (but you have good points) that it’s not two girls falling in love, that’s considered shoujo ai, this is considered a true Yuri because it has a lot of sexual scenes and not just two girls falling In Love, I can tell that you like shoujo ai but not Yuri. That’s why I said if they can “handle the mature content” because it has torture and off screen rape scenes, and the lesbianism is more sexual then intimate. The reason why I love this and hate everything else that it is not the main focus of the plot but it’s part of the story and it ties together with the plot, so If you like shoujo ai stay away from it but if you like Yuri, then this is the best to watch in my opinion.

GrandassassinJan 31, 2019 7:21 AM

Jan 31, 2019 7:21 AM

#72

KomaDoll

Offline

Nov 2010

646

What I have read up on history of yuri/shoujo-ai, genre was initially meant towards women though straight women. Riyoko Ikeda was one first ones to tackle these genres in manga (as well as "gender bender", transgenderism). I also read up somewhere than in Japan it was seen normal for women to have romantic feelings towards same gender as teenager, but when you grow up societal expectations catch up and you get married to man and have kids. So instead of people being straight or lesbian there was notion that women are bicurious as teenagers, but grown away from that. Lot of early shoujo follow this suit.

Sadly I can't remember where I read of this theory though.

I agree that lot of yuri as well as yaoi has pretty negative themes and in worst case it's not really called out in anyway in the work like for example sexual assault is brushed off cause the person is in love or sth like that. Lot of stuff is simply fanservice, in shoujo-ai I have noticed that "moe" has really taken over.

Jan 31, 2019 7:26 AM

#73

Supernerd1992

Offline

Jan 2019

28

Electik said:

Supernerd1992 said:
Why is every complaining about a non issue

sorry to tell you this but just because something doesn’t relate directly to you doesn’t mean it is a non issue ✌️

there’s anything wrong with the Yuri genre
It’s main audience is guys who gonna watch hot lesbians make out

As for Yaoi is main audience is ugly feminst basement dwellers
Who have never interacted with men who only what to see 1 dimensional sex object male chacters

I mean let's be honest would any real anime fan care
If sexist genres like Yaoi, shoujo, Josei, shounen ai, reverse harem
Disappeared

Jan 31, 2019 7:53 AM

#74

Grandassassin

Offline

Aug 2018

191

KomaDoll said:
What I have read up on history of yuri/shoujo-ai, genre was initially meant towards women though straight women. Riyoko Ikeda was one first ones to tackle these genres in manga (as well as "gender bender", transgenderism). I also read up somewhere than in Japan it was seen normal for women to have romantic feelings towards same gender as teenager, but when you grow up societal expectations catch up and you get married to man and have kids. So instead of people being straight or lesbian there was notion that women are bicurious as teenagers, but grown away from that. Lot of early shoujo follow this suit.

Sadly I can't remember where I read of this theory though.

I agree that lot of yuri as well as yaoi has pretty negative themes and in worst case it's not really called out in anyway in the work like for example sexual assault is brushed off cause the person is in love or sth like that. Lot of stuff is simply fanservice, in shoujo-ai I have noticed that "moe" has really taken over.

Well the theory that women are a little bisexual is a myth. Every time I see on any website that women that are straight are a little bi inside because they are more fluid than men. In my opinion those who claim they are straight and say they are attracted to the same sex when they are were teenagers are full of shit and don't want to admit or be aware that they are bisexual because they are afraid of being discriminated by both sexual orientations when they claim that Bisexuals "can't make up their mind" and assume they cant stick with one gender. That's completely false, there are plenty of bisexuals that stick to one gender, whether if its the opposite sex or the same sex, most of the time (I assume) the opposite sex because you can't have a baby naturally without an outside source (going to a sperm bank or having a surrogate mother) or getting an adoption. I can't really understand fully because I prefer the opposite sex, but I know plenty of Bisexuals that usually sticks to one gender with still having an attraction to the other sex( my guess 70-30 or 80-20) and the ones that are still attracted to both equally usually are trying to figure out which they prefer. It's all opinion so don't be so angry with my statement if something offends you in any way.

Jan 31, 2019 7:56 AM

#75

jgames111

Offline

Jan 2017

472

I mean my two favorite yuri anime is Sakura Trick and Bloom into you. I personally do not mind sexualizing, age gap, man oriented, forcing on people etc as long as it is good.

I like variety. I am a perverted man so I do not mind seeing sexy yuri, but at the same time do not mind seeing a yuri anime that explore self discovery, homophobia anxiety etc. Just like any other anime as long as its good I do not mind.

But it be nice if there was less yuri baiting, especially in fan service show. I mean you are god damn fan service, stop teasing.

Jan 31, 2019 8:56 AM

#76

Energetic-Nova

Offline

Jun 2011

5536

I like how your first sentence is wrong.

Yuri and yaoi were created around the same time as far as genres goes and by women and for women. Only recently have men come on board. And it is through magazines like Yuri Hime which are for men, existing.

Shoujo has many of the same problems. Mostly because shoujo demographic loves taboo relationships. Anime romance in general has these problems.

Hentai has even more problems than shoujo. But because of the genital power fantasy focus.

The point is, Yuri has only been this way, as in a genre mostly written by men, since Yuri Hime. But, not like it was devoid of incest or anything else. Go watch Oniisama e.

Energetic-NovaJan 31, 2019 9:04 AM

The anime community in a nutshell.

Jan 31, 2019 9:54 AM

#77

jiro-kyoka

Offline

Dec 2018

158

Great topic. I hate this idea that just because anime has typical tropes, we can't criticize the industry. Most yuri anime are terrible, with the consent issues and 'taboo' aspect, it's rare to see a nice, normal relationship (haven't seen Bloom Into You yet, let's hope it's good!). Yaoi is the same, I think Doukyuusei and Yuri on Ice! were the only two that weren't awful. I know homophobia is still an issue in Japan, but is it really that hard for a good, healthy lesbian relationship to be depicted?

Jan 31, 2019 10:43 AM

#78

NthDegree

Offline

Dec 2013

2102

Just came to say that the replies in this topic have been interesting to read, especially on the first page. I'm not lesbian myself, so it's particularly interesting to hear the perspectives of those who are, as I can't experience it myself.

As many people have already pointed out, the majority of GL is made for women by women. However, in my experience it's usually for straight women in particular, which is probably why yuri relationships tend to be fetishized so much. When you don't have the lesbian experience yourself, it's easier for it to make up your own idealized fantasy of what it's like. Well, that's what I think anyways.

The rest of the points in the OP pretty much apply to all romance genres, but aside from that I mostly agree with them. Especially the amount of harassment in anime is staggering.

Jan 31, 2019 12:59 PM

#79

DarkInsomnia57

Offline

Nov 2017

1305

I disagree with your first three points, agree with the fourth point. There's always more need for representation of gay/bisexual relationships/trans etc/queer.

You guys have un-normalized the intro to Citrus to the point of being unhealthy about it. Make a brief comment about what was a pop-intro to a Yuri series that was written in 2012 and let's move on. The world has changed. Sure the forced kiss was sensationalized Yuri, but let's collectively move on to better Yuri moments. You guys have taken one moment from all of Yuri, albeit from one of its most representative sources, WAY WAY WAY out of context.

There are all kinds of emotional reasons for that moment. You guys seemed to watch a single moment of a Yuri and make all kinds of assumptions about everything.

We can talk about characters asking consent for emotional/physical moments any time. I can't take you seriously when you haven't read Citrus and take one little moment that the author used to get some press and start her series as literal rape.

In the broad context of the series it hardly matters especially since they

You get way more of that forced stuff in NTR I suppose which seems kind of exploitative, but take it with a grain of salt from a culture that produces actual hentai and move on. Japan has produced actual tentacle rape hentai, and you're talking about little Yuri moments?

You're getting awfully me2 about consent in your post OP, annoyingly so. Overboard (the movie) levels of such.

There are only so many ways to start a cute romance and there are thousands and thousands of mangas. I can't take 70% of your post seriously and I read a lot of Yuri.

Also, as to Yuri on Ice, guys don't think of sex 100% of the time, that was pure fujioshi bait.

-Citrus was written by a woman, btw. Sasameki Koto by a man. Both very different stories with very different situations, representation and plot mechanics.

Jan 31, 2019 1:10 PM

#80

jal90

Offline

Oct 2010

11839

DarkInsomnia57 said:
Also, as to Yuri on Ice, guys don't think of sex 100% of the time, that was pure fujioshi bait.

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

Energetic-Nova said:
I like how your first sentence is wrong.

Yuri and yaoi were created around the same time as far as genres goes and by women and for women. Only recently have men come on board. And it is through magazines like Yuri Hime which are for men, existing.

!!!

I don't really know how is the case right now, but in 2007-2008 at least 70% of the readers of Comic Yuri Hime were women.

jal90Jan 31, 2019 1:17 PM

Jan 31, 2019 2:22 PM

#81

DarkInsomnia57

Offline

Nov 2017

1305

[quote=jal90 message=56846060]

DarkInsomnia57 said:
Also, as to Yuri on Ice, guys don't think of sex 100% of the time, that was pure fujioshi bait.

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

I thought the main characters of Yuri on Ice were hyper-sexualized. Especially Yuri. Guys are horny but we're not horny when we're thinking of other things like skating and serious competitions. We can focus our energy on other things a lot of the time.

Jan 31, 2019 2:29 PM

#82

Energetic-Nova

Offline

Jun 2011

5536

jal90 said:

DarkInsomnia57 said:
Also, as to Yuri on Ice, guys don't think of sex 100% of the time, that was pure fujioshi bait.

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

Energetic-Nova said:
I like how your first sentence is wrong.

Yuri and yaoi were created around the same time as far as genres goes and by women and for women. Only recently have men come on board. And it is through magazines like Yuri Hime which are for men, existing.

!!!

I don't really know how is the case right now, but in 2007-2008 at least 70% of the readers of Comic Yuri Hime were women.

Yuri Hime's target demographic is men tho. And that makes a difference regardless of who writes it. Heck, I wrote a yuri story for men once. And I didn't really care about being accurate, more cared about whatever was hot.

The anime community in a nutshell.

Jan 31, 2019 2:30 PM

#83

Kurt_Irving

Offline

Jul 2013

2489

You're not the only lesbian who has a problem with yuri manga or romantic anime. I know a lesbian lady from Canada who literally hates everything about yuri, yaoi and even romcoms.

Jan 31, 2019 2:33 PM

#84

jal90

Offline

Oct 2010

11839

DarkInsomnia57 said:

jal90 said:

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

I thought the main characters of Yuri on Ice were hyper-sexualized. Especially Yuri. Guys are horny but we're not horny when we're thinking of other things like skating and serious competitions. We can focus our energy on other things a lot of the time.

But the show is mostly about the competition and the sport, and most of its physicality is framed as part of the skating routines. I can get that Yuri feels a little too aroused, specially when Viktor makes bold advances, but this was far from the main narrative focus and I'd say far from the main character focus as well given the emotional emphasis on his attitude towards competition, which constituted most of his arc and scenes.

I didn't really get these hyper-sexualized vibes you are talking about, but to each their own.

Energetic-Nova said:

jal90 said:

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

!!!

I don't really know how is the case right now, but in 2007-2008 at least 70% of the readers of Comic Yuri Hime were women.

Yuri Hime's target demographic is men tho. And that makes a difference regardless of who writes it. Heck, I wrote a yuri story for men once. And I didn't really care about being accurate, more cared about whatever was hot.

It does make a difference when you want to make judgements on content and appeal. If your work primarily for men is read mostly by women, it means that it is still appealing for the female readers, so any distinction you wanted to make that way and through demographic target alone falls a bit flat because in the end in both cases women are reading them and they constitute the majority.

jal90Jan 31, 2019 2:38 PM

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Jan 31, 2019 2:35 PM

#85

Offline

Dec 2008

2107

I kinda wonder why the big deal in general about homosexuals, lesbians, etc? While I'll never be able to give my goodhouse keeping seal of approval to those kinds of life styles it doesn't mean I'm going to deride or belittle those people but it doesn't mean I'll agree with them either. What's the old saying-"live and let live"?

Life Is Short But Intense.

Jan 31, 2019 2:48 PM

#86

L0Ll

Offline

Oct 2018

1912

All I can read is a lot of upsetting emotions. :c

サディスティックな考え
"JUST KILL ME."
サディスティックマインド

Jan 31, 2019 2:54 PM

#87

_-_Sally_-_

Offline

Jun 2014

22541

zrdb said:
I kinda wonder why the big deal in general about homosexuals, lesbians, etc? While I'll never be able to give my goodhouse keeping seal of approval to those kinds of life styles it doesn't mean I'm going to deride or belittle those people but it doesn't mean I'll agree with them either. What's the old saying-"live and let live"?

Did you just call being gay a "Lifestyle?"

Jan 31, 2019 2:56 PM

#88

Energetic-Nova

Offline

Jun 2011

5536

jal90 said:

DarkInsomnia57 said:

I thought the main characters of Yuri on Ice were hyper-sexualized. Especially Yuri. Guys are horny but we're not horny when we're thinking of other things like skating and serious competitions. We can focus our energy on other things a lot of the time.

But the show is mostly about the competition and the sport, and most of its physicality is framed as part of the skating routines. I can get that Yuri feels a little too aroused, specially when Viktor makes bold advances, but this was far from the main narrative focus and I'd say far from the main character focus as well given the emotional emphasis on his attitude towards competition, which constituted most of his arc and scenes.

I didn't really get these hyper-sexualized vibes you are talking about, but to each their own.

Energetic-Nova said:

Yuri Hime's target demographic is men tho. And that makes a difference regardless of who writes it. Heck, I wrote a yuri story for men once. And I didn't really care about being accurate, more cared about whatever was hot.

It does make a difference when you want to make judgements on content and appeal. If your work primarily for men is read mostly by women, it means that it is still appealing for the female readers, so any distinction you wanted to make that way and through demographic target alone falls a bit flat because in the end in both cases women are reading them and they constitute the majority.

May have started that way but I don't think that is the case now with them targeting lolicons.

I mean we could sit here and say that Haikyu isn't a shounen because it has primarily female readership. Doubt they will ever change the demographic tags for it because it is in Shounen Jump. Even if Shounen Jump themselves say they no longer target just boys anymore.

But I still say stuff like Citrus has all of the same problems most people have with josei or shoujo stuff. Mostly because they always focus on the taboo of the thing.

Yuri is one of my higher rated genres because yeah pretty much learned my taste preferences when it comes to Yuri. And I think that is what OP needs to do. With yaoi and with yuri, just avoid stuff they know they wont like in the first place, and go with stuff they know they will like.

Also, I don't think implied relationships are really so bad like they seem to think. Honestly, they are a lot more realistic even if people want to fight endlessly with you about what is gay and what isn't. Usually the people who are made upset live in a place where you can be open about it without upsetting people. And they kinda feel like manga, which comes from Japan, should do the same.

I understand the feeling of wanting something better and more or whatever. It exists for sure. But they gotta hop away from anime. They completed like 7 manga. And we all know that that means they just simply wont know the genre, and what titles to avoid nearly as well as someone who has read more.

I mean one of the manga they read was from this magazine: https://myanimelist.net/manga/magazine/122/Comic_High
And yeah that makes me laugh. And they didn't read girlfriends they read a manga about a fujoshi. I haven't read that one I did read girlfriends tho. It wasn't my thing but it wasn't like.... all of shoujo ai/yuri's fault. XD

Energetic-NovaJan 31, 2019 3:27 PM

The anime community in a nutshell.

Jan 31, 2019 3:03 PM

#89

XxGutsXx

Offline

Jan 2019

27

Electik said:
(yuri is going to be use throughout this to include shoujo ai, ‘yuri’ in japan is used to talk about any lesbian relationship, not just sexual ones and so will be used as such)

i love yuri but the now growing industry still has a lot of problems.

1) yuri much like yaoi is made for the opposite sex. a lot of yuri is made by men for men and although the amount of yuri written by women is increasing it’s still eclipsed by the amount written by men. tho in the end I’m relatively fine with this, it leaves some things to be desired as often men can fetishise and sexualise the relationships often between young girls (ie mermaid valkyrie, netsuzou trap and the various other yuri hentai on mal)
2) it often depicts just sort of gross relationships. uchi maid, citrus, candy boy and wataten most recently show extreme age gaps (pedophilia) and (arguable) incest. this in a way depicts gay women as predatory. the “straightforwardness” of girls such as mei from citrus were downright uncomfortable to watch as she basically forced herself on yuzu. this leads into point three
3) the harassment. this is handled terribly by many anime, with girls often forced into a relationship or situation that they don’t necessarily consent to. citrus, strawberry panic and tachibanakan triangle are all examples of this, again. and though sometimes it’s used for comedy there are definitely times it’s not and this is very rarely addressed. A series that did handle this extremely well was bloom into you in which in almost all of the situations, yuu consents to nanami’s advances, something that should be more common in not just yuri but straight romances as well.
4) the unwillingness to commit. now more than ever there are anime that extremely strongly hint at relationships between female characters but just... don’t. this yuri bait is not only frustrating but downplays gay relationships between girls to “oh they’re just really close friends” as nothing is ever confirmed. though people may argue that I’m looking too far into it, anime like revue starlight, bang dream, ssss gridman and many “moe” anime don’t confirm romances as the anime are made for men who still want their waifus to be available. i understand not every anime wants to include this kind of thing but when it’s So Heavily Baited, they may as well go that final step.
Still though, i love yuri and i can’t wait for the new series that come out. there have been some amazing anime recently such as bloom into you, flip flappers and asagao to kase-san and I’m extremely excited to see this genre evolve and grow in the future!
(also apologies but sometimes a girls gotta rant)

I completely agree with you on this certain topic. In fact, I tend to avoid yaoi manga/anime because that genre pretty much has the same problems as yuri. Most of the time, it seems that its main priority is to feed the reader's morbidity.

XxGutsXxJan 31, 2019 3:22 PM

Jan 31, 2019 3:03 PM

#90

Offline

Jul 2018

561862

DarkInsomnia57 said:

jal90 said:

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

I thought the main characters of Yuri on Ice were hyper-sexualized. Especially Yuri. Guys are horny but we're not horny when we're thinking of other things like skating and serious competitions. We can focus our energy on other things a lot of the time.

Now I can see it too. Tbh I never thought of it, but well now I can see how it could be seen by other people.

I thought of it like that:
Yuri is insecure and depressed, so Victor gave him a piece to open up more.
Also he never experienced it before, that's what the Eros was for and so he got to know a new side about him.
Tbh I found them both overly cuddly, so quite the opposite. xD

Yurio got a calm piece so he could literally calm down, because he is overly aggressive and ambitious, so he could express his love and thankfulness to his grandfather and be more cautious at his performances.
Their performances were pretty much the opposite of their personality.

I personally just liked his theme much more, because I'm much more of an ... Agape-person myself, but Eros isn't only meant to be sexually too, to be fair.
I looked the exact wording up and it's described as "sensual love and desire" and these things are not only downright about the sex per se.

removed-userJan 31, 2019 3:13 PM

Jan 31, 2019 3:06 PM

#91

Offline

Dec 2008

2107

Seiya said:

zrdb said:
I kinda wonder why the big deal in general about homosexuals, lesbians, etc? While I'll never be able to give my goodhouse keeping seal of approval to those kinds of life styles it doesn't mean I'm going to deride or belittle those people but it doesn't mean I'll agree with them either. What's the old saying-"live and let live"?

Did you just call being gay a "Lifestyle?"

I sure did-and what's the definition of lifestyle?, "Lifestyle is the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture".

Life Is Short But Intense.

Jan 31, 2019 3:14 PM

#92

Bernrika

Offline

Nov 2009

1245

Supernerd1992 said:

Electik said:

sorry to tell you this but just because something doesn’t relate directly to you doesn’t mean it is a non issue ✌️

there’s anything wrong with the Yuri genre
It’s main audience is guys who gonna watch hot lesbians make out

As for Yaoi is main audience is ugly feminst basement dwellers
Who have never interacted with men who only what to see 1 dimensional sex object male chacters

I mean let's be honest would any real anime fan care
If sexist genres like Yaoi, shoujo, Josei, shounen ai, reverse harem
Disappeared

"Anime is only acceptable if aimed at me"

lolwut

Jan 31, 2019 3:19 PM

#93

_-_Sally_-_

Offline

Jun 2014

22541

zrdb said:

Seiya said:

Did you just call being gay a "Lifestyle?"

I sure did-and what's the definition of lifestyle?, "Lifestyle is the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture".

That sounds a bit backwards.

Are you religious or something?

Jan 31, 2019 3:23 PM

#94

drip

Offline

May 2012

339

Japan in general has a problem with romance.

The over sexualized culture that frowns upon affection is an autistic combination.

This issue is less with Yuri and more with the fact Japan is just fucking stupid.

Jan 31, 2019 3:42 PM

#95

Offline

Jul 2018

561862

zrdb said:

Seiya said:

Did you just call being gay a "Lifestyle?"

I sure did-and what's the definition of lifestyle?, "Lifestyle is the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture".

But what do you expect of a set of behaviors and opinions?
I get up, eat, do whatever has to be done (work, study), speak to people rl and online and might meet with them, watch or read something, eat, shower and go to bed. That's a lifestyle as boring as yours, I guess lol.

Jan 31, 2019 3:45 PM

#96

DarkInsomnia57

Offline

Nov 2017

1305

[quote=jal90 message=56846473]

DarkInsomnia57 said:

jal90 said:

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

I thought the main characters of Yuri on Ice were hyper-sexualized. Especially Yuri. Guys are horny but we're not horny when we're thinking of other things like skating and serious competitions. We can focus our energy on other things a lot of the time.

But the show is mostly about the competition and the sport, and most of its physicality is framed as part of the skating routines. I can get that Yuri feels a little too aroused, specially when Viktor makes bold advances, but this was far from the main narrative focus and I'd say far from the main character focus as well given the emotional emphasis on his attitude towards competition, which constituted most of his arc and scenes.

I didn't really get these hyper-sexualized vibes you are talking about, but to each their own.

[quote=Energetic-Nova]

jal90 said:

DarkInsomnia57 said:
Also, as to Yuri on Ice, guys don't think of sex 100% of the time, that was pure fujioshi bait.

Not sure if I understood this. Care to explain how Yuri on Ice fits the "guys think of sex 100% of the time" trope?

.

The show basically peaks when Yuri hugs Viktor and admits to the world he likes him. The show is basically about that with some nice skating scenes as well. Yuri is quite sexual but maybe that's just how I see it.

Also the hot tub scene, my God, those abs! lol.

Jan 31, 2019 3:49 PM

#97

Stripes

otp haver 🤪

Offline

Jul 2017

6396

I'd deeply suggest watching @Zeria on Youtube. She goes through the history cycles of yuri, she is a lesbian, and goes through recommendations that are actually satisfying for lgbt cause.

Jan 31, 2019 3:55 PM

#98

Offline

Dec 2008

2107

Seiya said:

zrdb said:

I sure did-and what's the definition of lifestyle?, "Lifestyle is the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture".

That sounds a bit backwards.

Are you religious or something?

Me? Nope-and I pulled the definition straight off wikipedia.

Life Is Short But Intense.

Jan 31, 2019 4:00 PM

#99

_-_Sally_-_

Offline

Jun 2014

22541

zrdb said:

Seiya said:

That sounds a bit backwards.

Are you religious or something?

Me? Nope-and I pulled the definition straight off wikipedia.

You are aware that referring to being gay as a "lifestyle" is considered offensive these days, right?

People don't "choose" to be gay.

Jan 31, 2019 5:49 PM

#100