SetsukoHara said: I don't share the general view of what grey characters truly are. I don't think Aka Inu is grey, but I don't think that Pain or Itachi are grey characters. I actually don't even understand how you can consider Pain or Itachi grey characters while Aka Inu wouldn't, it just doesn't make sense. All of them are guys going through extreme and stupid measures to achieve an ideal. The only difference being the way the author portrays them, Oda want us to hate Aka Inu while Kishi want us to feel some sympathy towards Itachi or Pain. What is grey morality to you then? It's when the character have a strong and justifiable reason to fight, not for the sake of selfish personal agenda, but for better ideals. For much of the evil they committed, there is a justifiable reason for it, during the context, for a greater good, not for selfish reasons. Itachi and Pain fit this. Itachi, in the first place, is a pacifist, he choose the least destructive path available to him, he was selfless, and couldn't kill Sasuke, and everything he did from the point on, was for Sasuke's own good, but at the same time, killing the clan was still evil, thus he has a grey morality, not too black and not too white, a mixture, hence the name. Pain, only fought and created Akatsuki for his ideal of justice, and to stop the hate cycle. As can be seen in his flashback, he has many valid reasons, to think the Shinobi world needs change, that hate and fear exists. His dialogue with Naruto, left him speechless, even though he destroyed the leaf village, Naruto couldn't blame it all on him, and couldn't see him as a completely bad person. Pain: ''You and I are no different. We are both working for our own justice. The justice I have meted out against Konoha, is exactly the same as you are trying to meted out against me. Everyone feels the pain of loss the same. We both know that pain. You are working for your justice and I for mine.'' I got chills from just reading that! I freaking love Pain and his voice acting. And while I'm talking about this subject and Naruto. I will also mention the ninja villages. They are also portrayed this way. Every village, think they are right and better. And even though the leaf village is where the story begins, and where the main characters are from, it's not painted as the most righteous one or ''they did no wrong''. As they were responsible for some atrociousities on their own, they mistreated Naruto, like any other village mistreated their Jin. The Uchiha Massacre. Their role in the previous Great Ninja worlds (i.e some ninja being responsible for killing innocent civilians). And Danzo, as well, who stopped at nothing if it meant making the village better. What's good about most of the antagonist in the series, is that they have their reasons for doing what they do, and it's often not driven by selfish motives, and they are explored in good details and fleshed out. They aren't inherently evil. And every side has their own point of view, making the conflict grey, and interesting. Hell, I actually rooted for Tobi and Madara side, because I thought it was more logical and realistic, than Naruto's side. I really dig that aspect in the series, and the cast of antagonists are the most complex, interesting and well fleshed out and characterized in any battle series I read/watched imo. |
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RedRoseFring said: Then we'd also have to address the question "does grey = good?" People get stuck in these mentalities too often. That is why I just prefer variety the most because it keeps things interesting. It usually makes things more interesting, personally. It's one of the reasons I loved reading Tokyo Ghoul so much. A series can still be great with good ol' fashioned Good vs. Evil, though (ayyy JoJo's) |
| All that justification given also works for Akainu, so you kind of just proved Kaimon's point. It works for all the Marines who work to keep the world a better place actually. If the criteria is not being selfish, then it also works for Luffy and co who have defended many people. A statement like "Every village, think they are right and better," indirectly indicates that other series are more complex because they include characters and groups who don't think they're right but choose to do what they do anyway. That would actually put Naruto at the bottom end of the spectrum when it comes to characters being varied. Also, Killer Bee was well respected by his village. I may be wrong, but it seemed that every other village generally respected (or feared in Gaara's case which later became respect) their Jinchuriki. And then you have Hidan who just wanted to kill people and Kakuzu who just worked for money. That makes them selfish and therefore disqualifies them. Zabuza and Orochimaru as well. |
RedRoseFringFeb 26, 2015 5:59 PM
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Kaimon said: RedRoseFring said: Then we'd also have to address the question "does grey = good?" People get stuck in these mentalities too often. That is why I just prefer variety the most because it keeps things interesting. It usually makes things more interesting, personally. It's one of the reasons I loved reading Tokyo Ghoul so much. A series can still be great with good ol' fashioned Good vs. Evil, though (ayyy JoJo's) Dio was just bad-natured right from the womb. Gathered a bunch of crazies around himself as well. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
RedRoseFring said: One day hopefully people will learn that everything =/= good. Filler, fanservice, nakama powerups, complex, 1 dimensional, character development, etc.Then we'd also have to address the question "does grey = good?" People get stuck in these mentalities too often. That is why I just prefer variety the most because it keeps things interesting. |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Isterio said: Fanservice in a bathing scene is perfectly fine because it´s meant for that. In a fight though it´s just annoying distracting and turns off the overall mood from excitment to arousement? (if you are into that kind of stuff). Fanservice doesn't only mean sexual scenes. Extended fight scenes can be/are fanservice, so they fit. For example, Killua vs Youpi had fanservice, the fight extended and was more flashy. Pain vs Kyuubi, can also be considered fanservice, since it's not in the manga. |
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StrayBotato said: AoT season 2 is going to be slightly better than season 1, but the score it gets will most likely be lower (more like, it will have a high score at the beginning but the score will drop like a rock in the second half). The "second half" did you read the manga or are you basing your opinion off what other people has said? That all depends on the casuals. If all they want is naked giants eating people then you're probably right. But if they would rather get character development plus answers then I don't see problem. Advantages for anime watchers. Great soundtrack, great animation and art, the series will adopt around 2 chapters per episode. Meaning faster pacing. They only have to wait a week. Manga readers. Have to wait a whole month for 1 chapter. Decent art or terrible art for some. Doesn't have all those stuff the anime has. I think you will have to take in all these stuff into consideration. Some people are better off sticking with the anime instead. Plus the finale for season 2 is going to be awesome. |
keragamming said: I definitely agree that the anime for AoT is much better than the manga. Although if the season 2 is going to end at the uprising arc it's not gonna be a good ending...StrayBotato said: AoT season 2 is going to be slightly better than season 1, but the score it gets will most likely be lower (more like, it will have a high score at the beginning but the score will drop like a rock in the second half). The "second half" did you read the manga or are you basing your opinion off what other people has said? That all depends on the casuals. If all they want is naked giants eating people then you're probably right. But if they would rather get character development plus answers then I don't see problem. Advantages for anime watchers. Great soundtrack, great animation and art, the series will adopt around 2 chapters per episode. Meaning faster pacing. They only have to wait a week. Manga readers. Have to wait a whole month for 1 chapter. Decent art or terrible art for some. Doesn't have all those stuff the anime has. I think you will have to take in all these stuff into consideration. Some people are better off sticking with the anime instead. Plus the finale for season 2 is going to be awesome. |
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Gholy said: There aren't even that many chapters out now...G_Spark233 said: I definitely agree that the anime for AoT is much better than the manga. Although if the season 2 is going to end at the uprising arc it's not gonna be a good ending... Apparently the 2nd season will end at around chapter 70, so that might be good news. |
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Kaimon said: soundscape said: How is Akainu gray? I honestly just may have forgotten something, can you offer more details plz, ty. I just remember that he considers "Pirates are evil, need to be destroyed" by any means necessary, no matter what pirates or situation. Akainu isn't gray but the Marines as a whole are. Well you were talking about Akainu. So how are the marines gray? |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
tsudecimo said: SetsukoHara said: I don't share the general view of what grey characters truly are. I don't think Aka Inu is grey, but I don't think that Pain or Itachi are grey characters. I actually don't even understand how you can consider Pain or Itachi grey characters while Aka Inu wouldn't, it just doesn't make sense. All of them are guys going through extreme and stupid measures to achieve an ideal. The only difference being the way the author portrays them, Oda want us to hate Aka Inu while Kishi want us to feel some sympathy towards Itachi or Pain. What is grey morality to you then? I was also like to add, that anti villains (ex: Pain, Tobi, Meruem) and some types of anti heroes (ex: Kiritsugu) usually have grey morality. |
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G_Spark233 said: Gholy said: There aren't even that many chapters out now...Apparently the 2nd season will end at around chapter 70, so that might be good news. That's exactly why its coming out in 2016 and not 2015. Ill say whenever that titanic battle is finish. Knowing Isayama, about two more chapters max. Since he doesn't drag his titan fights. Around chapter 68 Is where season 2 will end. |
keragammingFeb 27, 2015 2:10 AM
| Next week OP is gonna be goooood |
tsudecimo said: Agafin said: Takarajima Did you watch that recently? I only watched it as a kid. Agafin said: But battle shonen are definitely not high on my scale when it comes to emotional scenes tbh. Rose of versailles, Takarajima and Ie Naki Ko and some of Miyazaki's (Ghibli) movies legitimately made me cry (granted I was rather young back then) more than once and I easily consider them more emotional than any battle shonen I've read/watched. I watched all of them as a kid. I also happened to rewatch Takarajima( along with RoV) recently. Feels + Nostalgia > All. |
| Whoops, didn't see that. What's your take on grey morality in battle series btw? |
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keragamming said: Then it will be a long wait until a possible season 3.G_Spark233 said: There aren't even that many chapters out now... That's exactly why its coming out in 2016 and not 2015. Ill say whenever that titanic battle is finish. Knowing Isayama, about two more chapters max. Since he doesn't drag his titan fights. Around chapter 68 Is where season 2 will end. |
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keragamming said: I read some chapters from ch. 50+ or so, pretty cool stuff.StrayBotato said: AoT season 2 is going to be slightly better than season 1, but the score it gets will most likely be lower (more like, it will have a high score at the beginning but the score will drop like a rock in the second half). The "second half" did you read the manga or are you basing your opinion off what other people has said? That all depends on the casuals. If all they want is naked giants eating people then you're probably right. But if they would rather get character development plus answers then I don't see problem. Advantages for anime watchers. Great soundtrack, great animation and art, the series will adopt around 2 chapters per episode. Meaning faster pacing. They only have to wait a week. Manga readers. Have to wait a whole month for 1 chapter. Decent art or terrible art for some. Doesn't have all those stuff the anime has. I think you will have to take in all these stuff into consideration. Some people are better off sticking with the anime instead. Plus the finale for season 2 is going to be awesome. I'm mainly expecting people to rate it highly early on because they are hyped for it, expecting but then the show will go in a different direction and they will be disappointed. |
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| Ya Attack on Titan lost a lot of steam recently imo. It just isn't all that interesting with the politics stuff and the human vs human fights. I much prefer when it was humans vs titans. But that is just me. |
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Isterio said: Mustang_Roy said: That Toriko chapter!! So much hyyype!!! Yes and no, this chapter is predictable as fuck. I will post this and write "CALLED THAT SHIT!" next week. When this gets revealed. 7/10 chapter it progressed no more. Yeah, you didn't predict sh!t, Too little aizen :( next chapter thou :O But that toriko fusion HYPE :) I can see the purple oni from here XD |
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| Hopefully there's One Piece this week. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
IntroverTurtle said: Hopefully there's One Piece this week. There is. |
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Dahaka_ said: Ok good. Break next week again though?IntroverTurtle said: Hopefully there's One Piece this week. There is. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| yep let's hope those two breaks will result in anime going back to 1 chaper per episode pacing for a while |
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| We're back to grey morality? I guess nobody actually agrees with the "selfish" criteria (rightfully so). Anyway, it varies and a character can even be on the fence. Pein was concrete on his approach all through out until the talk no jutsu by Naruto. If killing a baby would have helped him achieve his goals, he'd do so. Same goes for Tobi who nearly did just that. You won't find any definite definitions defending deficit descriptions, but "I like them = grey" will still not suffice. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| I don't think there are any grey morality characters in battle shounen (except maybe meruem and zeref). The antagonists are usually very simple with regards to their motives |
| meruem isn't gray morality, was becoming gray but through most of it was pretty evil |
JD2411 said: I don't think there are any grey morality characters in battle shounen (except maybe meruem and zeref). The antagonists are usually very simple with regards to their motives How about Gon? |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
soundscape said: now that you mention it I think I would include him as wellJD2411 said: I don't think there are any grey morality characters in battle shounen (except maybe meruem and zeref). The antagonists are usually very simple with regards to their motives How about Gon? |
| The characters in snk are pretty grey IMO. People are probably going to think I'm crazy for saying. Heck even the mindless titans have grey morality. Lol |
keragamming said: The characters in snk are pretty grey IMO. People are probably going to think I'm crazy for saying. Heck even the mindless titans have grey morality. Lol Moe titan definitely had dat grey morality going on. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| Yea everything and everyone are grey... but then again the word loses its meaning, so where are we gonna find a fair god damn deal in that, right? |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
| Only Annie comes off as grey(to some extent) to me (in SNK that is) |
AgafinFeb 27, 2015 10:06 AM
| Vageta? If gon is gray then vageta would be gray as well Gon still seems good to me, just not a goody two shoes |
JD2411 said: soundscape said: now that you mention it I think I would include him as wellHow about Gon? Ok, how about Netero? |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
Killaclown said: Vageta? If gon is gray then vageta would be gray as well Gon still seems good to me, just not a goody two shoes |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
| Luffy knowingly released a bunch of evil prisoners into the world, I think that's pretty gray. Luffy himself is a villain to society. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
soundscape said: no I wouldn't include himJD2411 said: now that you mention it I think I would include him as well Ok, how about Netero? |
soundscape said: damn keep forgetting that part lol.... ok both gray. though to be fair you could call that a momentary insanity kind of thingKillaclown said: Vageta? If gon is gray then vageta would be gray as well Gon still seems good to me, just not a goody two shoes |
IntroverTurtle said: he was initially presented as a villian so he's morally wrong from the start. if a morally wrong character does morally wrong things that doesn't make him grey. a better example would be all the good deeds luffy has done because they make him a grey characterLuffy knowingly released a bunch of evil prisoners into the world, I think that's pretty gray. Luffy himself is a villain to society. |
JD2411 said: soundscape said: no I wouldn't include himOk, how about Netero? |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
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