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Dec 2012

24355

Nidhoeggr said:

can someone please point out what makes him so great that he warrants 2k+ favourites?

Rom/com anime that are adapted from LN with long titles have carbon copy generic protagonists who have the same character traits and act the same way and are usually poorly written and one dimensional. So a lot of people were surprised/impressed of seeing a character like Hachiman, who was original, had a personality and provided social commentary and well written monologues that resonated with a lot of viewers and conveyed how they feel in some aspects in their life. He is realistic in every sense of the word. He acts like what logical human being is supposed to act in certain situations ( stupid misunderstandings, his thoughts really reflect how a loner might think, How people would react in some situations, etc), he is portrayed like an actual highschool outcast/loner (not like look at me I'm an outcast but I have a harem). He basically makes the show, he also provides witty humor and a cynical outlook on the usual rom/com tropes ( i.e: seeing his litter sister pants: '' When I look at them I don't get excited or act weirdly, I think yup that's 100% cotton) ( Chun2 dude who tries to write a novel: he comments on how generic his story is and he is using some plot points for fanservice) there is a lot more but I don't remember the exact wording. He is giving a lot of focus and the story is told from his perspective to show he is cynicism and thought process.

His not just cynic and bitter for the sake of being cynical and bitter. He had a lot of bad experiences that shaped him into that. It made him look in the world differently than that other normal students in his class.

Nidhoeger said:
pseudo-antisocial protagonist that is just a bad Kyon ripoiff to cash in on angsty teenaged idiots and otakus.

It's a-social and he is far from a Kyon rip off since the only trait they share is being cynical and even the level of their cynicism differ.

Almost everyone I know and whom i trust said he didn't really develop in the first 11 episodes and the first episode already established him as a terrible character to me.

Characters shouldn't change just because, there must be a strong reason or a conflict for a character to question his own belief and make him change and nothing that could've caused that happened before episode 12. So he didn't need to change.

He still changed in some ways, while his outlook may have not changed, he himself has changed over the course of the anime. Maybe it's because he still is a pessimist whom only sees the bad, but he has come a long way from being the total loner loathing people, spiting relationships and so-on, to a person whom actually cares about those around him and is willing to act for them as well.(Playing the bad guy when he needs to, lol)

In conclusion his character is very rare to see. It wouldn't have surprised me if he had 4k favorites.

Popka said:

tsudecimo said:

2/ They think the character is well written with great characterization, good back story, amazing development, etc.

The question coming into my head now is whether these are what make good characters. Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men has only 1 of these aspects, as does the Joker in almost any of his incarnations. Why judge characters by some checklist? And if you do want to, it may be easy to tell the difference between poor development and good development, but what makes the difference between adequate development and good development?

It's not really a check list, I just mentioned some reasons as to why some people consider a character to be ''good'' there is a lot of stuff that will always differ from a person to another and if you don't really like the character I doubt you would add him to your favorite list no matter how ''good'' you think he is unless you are supposed to hate him.

The difference between a good development and an adequate development won't be the same from person to another so is how ''deep'' etc

Jul 22, 2013 3:32 PM

#409

ihateeveryone

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Jul 2012

2652

This whole thing is really putting our admins and even our regulars at their wits end, so I'm just saying don't be surprised if strikes, kicks, or bans start getting handed out fairly quickly.

Jul 22, 2013 3:33 PM

#410

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Jun 2011

1489

sushi55 said:

lordzeru said:

Red_Keys said:
Can I get Not_Biased in here? He might be able to provide some more brilliant criticism.

No response but this? I see you're just here to bait. I won't waste my time, then.

Aw come on, it'll be fun!

Sushi, these past few days you have been highly disruptive in multiple threads. From insulting fellow clubs and members, to continuing subjects that had been explicitly stopped. Now, you're encouraging baiting, trolling, and potential flame wars for the sake of your own amusement.

This is your first strike in the club. Please, be calm and think of how your actions affect this club in future posts.

Jul 22, 2013 3:34 PM

#411

Popka

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Sep 2012

1062

All right, that seems like a good answer. So this would tie into what you said about Hachiman then? A character can enter into a series already developed. There's no reason a show can't be about a character's impact on a world rather than the world's impact on a character.

Toei don't fuck this up

Jul 22, 2013 3:39 PM

#412

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Dec 2012

24355

Emmrys said:

B) That goal effectively faded away away for over hundreds of chapters, and for no good reason took the backseat to another goal which was to bring Sasuke back, somtheing that Nid was right about since Naruto has never gone easy on or felt anything short of despise for for any antagonists or villains that killed innocents or threatened his village. It makes no sense that with Sasuke, he acts differently, no matter how strong of feelings of brotherhood he felt for him in the past. Furthermore, for his newest "mission" to consume him like that when everyone should be able to agree he should let it go is sad.

He was getting stronger to get Sasuke back and to become a hokage, he wouldn't have become a hokage if the whole Sasuke issue didn't start. He would have still been training, going to missions etc. He is recently not about Sasuke or being hokage but about the current war and before it was about him dealing with the akatsuki and pain. Will why wouldn't he? unlike the other villains Naruto don't know them personally or have some kind of bond with them, he never experienced
a friend becoming a villain before. Didn't he say something like '' I will save you and became a hokage'', I admitted that it's somewhat dragging but the manga/anime is still not finish so who knows how their relationship will turn into.

C) Naruto gained his signature technique not by the hard work he was prone to in the beginning, but in under a week or so because of shadow clones. However you look at it, there wasn't any "figuring out" there like there was with the Rasengan, surface walking, . Naruto's biggest characteristic as a kid was that he was inspiring-- he worked hard like Lee, he managed to out stealth the ANBU to pull some pranks, he persevered despite the unbearable hatred of an entire town--but now any inspiration that can be found from him is almost gone.

I disagree, he still have some inspiration in him ( him saving the world from hatred, following the will of his master and father) there is still a lot of him to accomplish in an inspirational way.

D) As it's been said before, it was already decided that Naruto was to be on the relations. It was final then.

When I first brought up Nid argument I wasn't aware of that. At least this made me remember a lot of things in Naruto which is convenient since the cannon is back on air.

Popka said:
All right, that seems like a good answer. So this would tie into what you said about Hachiman then? A character can enter into a series already developed. There's no reason a show can't be about a character's impact on a world rather than the world's impact on a character.

Hachiman has stuff that makes me think he is a good character but character development is not one of them since it wasn't needed in his situation. He didn't have any reason to question his morals, his beliefs, his way of thinking or outlook on life but he will probably change if a reason was brought upon him. I agree with the second part of your post, not every character is supposed to ''change'' unless it has a strong reason to, if a character is developed from the start then it won't change but it will possibly impact the world it's in like you said.

tsudecimoJul 22, 2013 3:50 PM

Jul 22, 2013 4:40 PM

#413

Emmrys

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Dec 2011

2006

tsudecimo said:

He was getting stronger to get Sasuke back and to become a hokage, he wouldn't have become a hokage if the whole Sasuke issue didn't start. He would have still been training, going to missions etc. He is recently not about Sasuke or being hokage but about the current war and before it was about him dealing with the akatsuki and pain. Will why wouldn't he? unlike the other villains Naruto don't know them personally or have some kind of bond with them, he never experienced
a friend becoming a villain before. Didn't he say something like '' I will save you and became a hokage'', I admitted that it's somewhat dragging but the manga/anime is still not finish so who knows how their relationship will turn into.

His goal to become hokage started way before Sasuke left and before they even became teammates. And yes, if he wasn't chasing after Sasuke he would still be training and going on missions... i.e., he would still be on the path to becoming hokage. Even if he thinks it is, his ascent to Hokage isn't contingent upon him bringing home Sasuke.

Saying that he isn't as concerned about Sasuke because of the war is incorrect. Sasuke is always at the forefront his mind, from the time leading up to the war when he found Sasuke after Sasuke's battle against Itachi and during the war when he spoke to the Edo-Tensei Itachi. He shouldn't obsess over Sasuke's betrayal for as long as he has for reasons I already addressed... it goes against his character going by how he's treated every other canon villain. Sasuke may have been his first friend and they may have also been alone as kids, but Naruto also made other strong bonds with his comrades. Traitors and missings nins and other difficult situations are something that he's going to inevitably have to deal with as hokage some day, and as hokage the whole village becomes his family. He can't afford to make it his personal mission to chase after each individually and bring them back, nor does it make much sense to.

EmmrysJul 22, 2013 4:47 PM

Jul 22, 2013 4:47 PM

#414

Red_Keys

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Sep 2012

19236

Ooohh this club~

lordzeru said:

Red_Keys said:
Can I get Not_Biased in here? He might be able to provide some more brilliant criticism.

No response but this? I see you're just here to bait. I won't waste my time, then.

If you read my previous posts, you'd realize that no, I'm not here "just to bait".

I'm here to address Ouma Shu being on the list. In fact, I didn't even want to start discussing his quality as a character. I was simply stating that he doesn't fit the requirements of being here, personal feelings about the show aside.

But, to contradict myself, I'll go on and continue this merry discussion ^^

lordzeru said:
I haven't even seen all of GC to tell you that's BS.

A word of advice: finish a series before you decide to seriously critique it. Or at least, critique the entire development of the main character.

It's like saying School Days is a happy romance ecchi harem that doesn't deviate the path of every other harem ever, because I saw the first episode.

lordzeru said:
Shu isn't dynamic, he is in fact a clean slate. As the plot progresses and situations change, the character should grow with it, not just start back at square one every time.

For the sake of a more meaningful discussion, instead of a "yea huh, nu uh, yea huh, nu uh" carousel of redundancy, can you provide specifics?

And yes, by definition, he is a dynamic character.

lordzeru said:
Shu never progresses, forgets any lessons learned at the drop of a pen.

Like?

lordzeru said:
That is a perfect example of fundamentally bad writing when your character cannot stay consistent

I thought your problem was that he wasn't changing?

lordzeru said:
who can be whatever the plot needs him to be.

What does that even mean? You just described every single fictional character ever.

Nidhoeggr said:
What zeru said. Shu never learns from his past or his experiences with the undertakers. He stays whiny after he discovers the power and is resetted immedietely after each good action that should boost his confidence. He is also stays a whimp after manning up in the last second in every mission he undertakes. He is reset every damn time, even after he took on the role as a leader. In the end, he is not only angsty, but inconsequential angsty because he always forgets his fear when it is important.

Oh come on. Don't give me the "he's whinny" bit. Please. Please.

It's an established fact in the show, a legitimate, blatant plotpoint, that Shu is not psychological healthy. So expecting him to "develop" at the rate of a "normal" person is, well, ignorant. And besides, what the audience expects of a 15 year old child dumped into the middle of a multinational terrorism war, is beyond ridiculous.

"Angst" is being sad because your boyfriend of 3 months broke up with you because you weren't hot enough. Angst is not being in Shu's position.

Anyway, it's safe to say that he suffers from depression. Stress can do hell to your body. I'm not pulling this out of my ass here.

And I think "Adrenaline" is something that the brain has. Maybe you should study up on that? I know it wasn't spoonfed directly to us as the audience, but I think it's safe to assume that people should be able to make logical inferences based on human brain function.

Nidhoeggr said:
And Not_Biased is a horrible troll and unlike zeru never backs up his ridiculous claims. Much like certain other users in the forums.
And I don't want this to turn into normal MAL forums. I hope you all understand what this means for future discussions.
I am also issuing a warning to Red_Keys because of the bait.

I was alluding to his criticism of the show after not completing it. Kind of like a certain biased individual.

Above all, it was a joke. I said it dismayingly because of the fact that I can't help but not take it seriously.

LuvSosa69 said:
Human progression isn't always linear. If people learned their lessons that easily there would be no war. If you haven't seen all of GC then you haven't seen all of the character's development and you can't speak on it.

I got yo back, Keysie. I'm callin you Keysie from this moment onward btw.

Appreciated :)

lordzeru said:
There is no character development, that's the point.

Then your point is wrong. Whether you liked it or not is irrelevant, to deny there was character development is simply false.

lordzeru said:
I know I'm not missing anything by not finishing the series, because I can pretty much assure you it'll end with him being whatever the plot needs him to be for the show to end.

That's... every bit of fiction ever.

The characters are all "what the plot needs them to be" because they are all fictional characters inside of that plot.

I literally don't understand what you mean when you say this.

lordzeru said:
If you really think otherwise, I'll go finish the show this week and tell you if that changed at all.

He does.

But any change you see would most likely be waved off as "whatever the plot needed him to be" because of your predisposition opinion.

lordzeru said:
And people don't learn from their lessons about war, but people learn from personal experiences. If someone stabs you in the back, you are going to be more cautious lest it happen again. If Shu was stabbed in the back, the next episode he would have no problems trusting someone else as long as it's plot convenient.

Can you give specifics?

ihateeveryone said:
This whole thing is really putting our admins and even our regulars at their wits end, so I'm just saying don't be surprised if strikes, kicks, or bans start getting handed out fairly quickly.

I don't see why discussing on a discussion forum should be looked down upon. The "flaming" here is nothing but simple jokes that aren't meant to be offensive. I know this is an uber elite club, but that doesn't mean we have to have uber elite rods shoved up our asses.

Jul 22, 2013 4:54 PM

#415

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Dec 2012

24355

Goddamn Red_Keys I'm actually starting to like you..
@Emmrys
I somewhat agree with some of the stuff that you said and I already admitted that it was dragging when it came to Sasuke. I always found the first part of Naruto better and it was pretty great in Shippuden until the ending of the Pain invasion arc.

Jul 22, 2013 4:56 PM

#416

ihateeveryone

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Jul 2012

2652

Red_Keys said:

Ahh no I don't wanna really be directly involved in this.. I just wanted to state that so people know what exactly is happening here. I'm not the one in charge of banning, kicks, strikes, etc. so I have no control over it. I was just stating that so people kinda know what to expect I guess.

Jul 22, 2013 4:57 PM

#417

metamorphius

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Aug 2009

3452

Red_Keys said:
Ooohh this club~

First strike~

You already got a warning prior to this.

Nidhoeggr said:

And I don't want this to turn into normal MAL forums. I hope you all understand what this means for future discussions.
I am also issuing a warning to Red_Keys because of the bait.

This is not the general MAL forums and degrading threads in your usual fashion is not something we are ready to overlook.

Jul 22, 2013 5:05 PM

#418

Valkqt

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Jun 2012

378

RedKeys I don't think you have quite understood what it means to post in this club's subforums. As one of the admins pointed out above already, we don't play by the rules of MAL forums and won't tolerate blatant flaming/trolling/baiting/namecalling/discussions that start out of nowhere and lead nowhere that make no sense in and out.

This is not how you conduct a healthy discussion anywhere on the internet or real life and you don't certainly do it in what is supposed to be the friendly environment that this club is before it filled up with all this blatant baiting.

Jul 22, 2013 5:17 PM

#419

Red_Keys

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Sep 2012

19236

At the risk of sounding snarky, isn't this:

metamorphius said:

Red_Keys said:
Ooohh this club~

First strike~

Blatant mockery, specifically used as baiting?

And I'd love to say some more things about Valkyrion's post, but I'm holding my tongue.

Now, if you guys want to ignore my blatantly intolerable, unhealthy, criminal 2 lines of text, could you pay attention to the actual content that I wrote that I actually put effort into contributing and sparking discussion for this club?

Jul 22, 2013 5:21 PM

#420

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Jun 2011

1489

Red_Keys said:
Now, if you guys want to ignore my blatantly intolerable, unhealthy, criminal 2 lines of text, could you pay attention to the actual content that I wrote that I actually put effort into contributing and sparking discussion for this club?

Oh, I read it.

Red_Keys said:

lordzeru said:
who can be whatever the plot needs him to be.

What does that even mean? You just described every single fictional character ever.

This is an insult to all the fictional characters that are actually well written. Good character's personalities are not dictated by the events in a series, they are influenced by them. Good characters do not whiplash back and forth between ideals or motivations to better serve the story that is being told. Characters are their own element while story is another, they are not some symbiotic mess. So, you were wrong in your statement.

Jul 22, 2013 5:23 PM

#421

metamorphius

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Aug 2009

3452

Red_Keys said:
At the risk of sounding snarky, isn't this:

metamorphius said:

Red_Keys said:
Ooohh this club~

First strike~

Blatant mockery, specifically used as baiting?

No, it's your first strike, sir (three strikes trigger a ban, btw), I simply didn't want to quote the whole post. Of course, you can take it any way you want, I cannot bring myself to care.

Jul 22, 2013 5:31 PM

#422

Red_Keys

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Sep 2012

19236

I completely agree, as is with the case of Shu.

ForgoneReality said:
Good characters do not whiplash back and forth between ideals or motivations to better serve the story that is being told. Characters are their own element while story is another, they are not some symbiotic mess. So, you were wrong in your statement.

I don't see how "plot" and "character actions" are different. If a character takes a decisive course of action, and the plot changes, that's not the "plot dictating the character", that's the character dictating the plot.

If Shu "all of a sudden" turning into Hitler is "what the plot needs him to be", that's because his actions are what dictates the plot, and of course they'd "need" each other to coincide. If Shu didn't go through a change in characterization (even though it really wasn't a change in "characterization", more of his idea of "manning up" for everybody else and putting on a mask of confidence and totalitarianism), the plot wouldn't have followed the same path.

Jul 22, 2013 5:46 PM

#423

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Jun 2011

1489

Red_Keys said:
I don't see how "plot" and "character actions" are different.

If you open up an English Lit. book, you'll notice that they have different sections devoted to plot and characters. It's because they are separate beings.

Yes, characters often influence the story going on around them, but they are not the direct cause, motivation, and end-all for everything. Many times the events are outside of their hands, and stuff simply happens to them, for lack of a better phrase.

The only case in which a character would be the Alpha-Omega of a story is if they whole thing took place in a delusion/dream/fantasy/whatever. Note, I'm not really talking about GC, because I haven't finished it. I was responding to your comments regarding fictional thematics as a whole.

Jul 22, 2013 6:24 PM

#424

Popka

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Sep 2012

1062

I"m leaning toward Red_Key's side on this one. If a plot is a sequence of events, it isn't limited to the actions of the characters. It could involve a natural disaster or technological malfunction or what have you. But it certainly could include character actions.

Sure, there are facets of both that are separate, but really any story is going to involve an exchange between the plot and characters. Sometimes you have something like There Will Come Soft Rains, which has no characters, or something like the ending of 2001, in which stuff really just happens to a character without them acting.

I have never seen Guilty Crown, so I don't know anything about Shu's character. But I think the first point Red_Keys mentioned is worth noting, that Shu is not nearly as popular or well-liked as the other characters on the relations list. Kirby may be a no-good character, but he's not on relations because no one really cares about him.

Toei don't fuck this up

Jul 22, 2013 10:33 PM

#425

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Nov 2009

14588

+1 for Saber if there is a movement to put saber up on this list.

Jul 22, 2013 10:46 PM

#426

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Nov 2011

2817

+1 for Saber as well. It feels as though they made King Arthur a woman just to blame all 'his faults' on being a woman, despite not trying to tie up any of the inconsistancies Arthur being a woman creates. IE, Mordred (the child Morgaine le Fey bore after sleeping with her half brother, KING ARTHUR), the affair between Gwenyfar and Lancelot, etc.

She is physically strong but the universe seems to use her being a woman as a way to belittle the character.

AmberlehJul 22, 2013 11:04 PM

Jul 22, 2013 11:49 PM

#427

LuvSosa69

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Jul 2013

194

+1 for Saber

Such a poorly written character.

I'm cooler than a cooler
Big shouts out to my jeweler
Bitch Chief Sosa stack dat mula

JezusBull said:
Ohh the ignorant masses, poor, ignorant people.

Kimi no Iru Machi said:
Whether it's in Tokyo or the countryside, panties will always remain the same. And the heart of the man who tries his best is also the same.

Jul 23, 2013 12:04 AM

#428

ihateeveryone

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Jul 2012

2652

Pirating_Ninja said:
+1 for Saber if there is a movement to put saber up on this list.

There is, I think there's at LEAST five +1's with hardly any protest. I havent seen F/Z so I can't speak for her myself.

Jul 23, 2013 1:09 AM

#429

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

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Nov 2012

249

My view on Saber is ignored :(

Jul 23, 2013 1:55 AM

#430

jal90

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Oct 2010

11759

ForgoneReality said:
This is an insult to all the fictional characters that are actually well written. Good character's personalities are not dictated by the events in a series, they are influenced by them. Good characters do not whiplash back and forth between ideals or motivations to better serve the story that is being told. Characters are their own element while story is another, they are not some symbiotic mess. So, you were wrong in your statement.

How is that?

I don't seem to understand the difference. Characters and story are symbiotic by definition; a good character personality is what guides the viewer through the events, if a character changes because of plot reasons then it's because the events are altering their personality and it's a justified development in itself. On the other hand the character taking X decisions leads to X development in the story so this relation is also brought in the opposite way. The only alternative that might work is a one-sided relation, the character being influenced by an external situation they are not able to modify, but I don't see how that is preferable. As you say...

ForgoneReality said:
Many times [not always, and not necessarily, and certainly not preferably] the events are outside of their hands, and stuff simply happens to them, for lack of a better phrase.

And despite that we always get to know a version of that story, a specific one that responds to the personality and experience of the character, so yes, the character still influences and drives the narration of the events.

I think what Red_Keys wanted to point in here is that simply stating that a character is there "where the plot needs him to be" is an understatement, because virtually every piece of narrative follows the same rule. The character is there (physically) because the storyline dictates so. That's a basic rule of writing and without further development on the specifics, stating the idea seems useless; it doesn't reinforce discussion and doesn't explain the position of lordzeru clearly.

jal90Jul 23, 2013 2:22 AM

Jul 23, 2013 4:33 AM

#431

Matas

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Sep 2008

309

Shu is always exactly what the plot needs when it needs it. He acts out of character all the time for the convenience of the plot, but as said before it's not development because he just reverts back like it never happened and then acts out of character in a different way when the plot demands it. It's that he wouldn't actually make the decisions and act the way he does during those crucial moments if he was actually the way that he was portrayed. He is a blank slate that can adjust to anything and his wimpy side is just a default because it never matters in the grand scheme of things, he is never a complex character with any real depth he just completely flips personalities and then reverts back like nothing happened.

Events don't make Shu gradually change, they make him immediately flip-flop.

Plot and characters do coincide but they should grow with eachother, not make eachother flip back and forth.

MatasJul 23, 2013 4:39 AM

Jul 23, 2013 4:50 AM

#432

SeibaaHomu

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Mar 2012

5238

-1 for Saber. Sure some of her fans have degraded her as nothing more than waifu material, but you really shouldn't hold that against her. The fact that they acknowledge her gender does not make the writers sexist pigs. In fact, when writing female characters with masculine qualities it's a crucial step. There has to be some justification for the character to be a woman in the first place.

Now, on the topic of Mio and Yui. I know you're bitter that the show didn't get voted in and I know you guys hate KyoAni, but it's clear to me that there is little reason to keep them in there. Which is why it confuses me that you still stubbornly maintain that they will never leave the list. I could almost call that abuse of power.

People should only qualify for the relations list if their character is flawed in some way shape or form that the majority ignore. Yui and Mio are not flawed characters. They succeed at hitting their target with flying colours. In fact, no one has given me a straight answer as to why they're bad characters. I get why some people in the club don't like them, but I don't see that as a reason to have them on the list.

More to the point, there are a hell of a lot of characters who deserve the spot way more than them.

Jul 23, 2013 6:16 AM

#433

Haakonwale

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Sep 2011

492

+1 for Saber.

Jul 23, 2013 6:28 AM

#434

Valkqt

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Jun 2012

378

SaberRitsu said:
Now, on the topic of Mio and Yui. I know you're bitter that the show didn't get voted in and I know you guys hate KyoAni, but it's clear to me that there is little reason to keep them in there. Which is why it confuses me that you still stubbornly maintain that they will never leave the list. I could almost call that abuse of power.

If you go back a few pages you can see my take on Mio, and it's coming from someone who really likes the show.

Or if you're too lazy here it is under spoiler:

Jul 23, 2013 6:51 AM

#435

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Nov 2011

2817

I have no idea where you get this idea that people are 'bitter' about the show not getting in as I have not seen it even discussed since, perhaps mentioned in passing but certainly no one is bitter. In fact if anyone is bitter, it is you, since you are dredging up something no one has spoken of in forever and you are crying power abuse, which is a pretty bold claim.

If you continue to make things up and try to rile people up, I will have to strike you which I REALLY don't want to have to do, Saber.

In regards to Saber the character, since only one person has disagreed with adding her (to my knowledge), she is now on our Character Relations.

Jul 23, 2013 7:16 AM

#436

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Nov 2012

249

There were atleast two people who were against adding Saber to the list.
And I really didn't feel like anything was discussed about her.

If the reason of her being added was because she's hyped by Fate-fans I'm ok with that.
However if she was added because of being "poorly writen" or because of sexism I disagree strongly.

Jul 23, 2013 8:00 AM

#437

SeibaaHomu

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Mar 2012

5238

@Valyrion I saw your post before and I agree that it's a valid point, but I still disagree and am generally against the idea. Mio's a little overrated, but I wouldn't put her in that pile with the likes of Yuno and Sasuke.

@Amberleh I apologise if you got that impression from what I was posting. While I do stand by my opinion that their inclusion is kind of pointless and the reasoning is very weak, I didn't intend for my bold statements attacking the club to be taken seriously.

And for the record, two people disagreed with Saber being added and both those two people (Including myself) gave reasoning which no one has cared to rebut. Barely anyone gave much reasoning for her inclusion other than 'she's the worst character'.

Jul 23, 2013 8:51 AM

#438

Offline

Dec 2012

24355

The way this club works is so...

People with +1 saber:

None of them aside from one post explained why she was bad. But the two people who were against it actually gave reasons. Come one.

Jul 23, 2013 9:05 AM

#439

Junchi

Offline

Jan 2008

947

Ok, then here I am to give another -1 for Saber.

Yeah, her characterization wasn't that memorable, significant or whatever, but she is far away from the title 'horridly written character'. (Ok, I admit, in FZ she was pretty much a mess, but not in FSN and NOT in the FSN VN!)

Use your brain before using your keyboard!

Jul 23, 2013 9:48 AM

#440

Nidhoeggr

Offline

Apr 2009

5740

You now what? I have been in a REALLY bad mood today because it is hot, I just came from my lawyer and I think that I'll rant just a little bit:

Do you know what this club currently is? Work. A part-time job to be exact. This club is very active, hundreds of comments and posts are made everyday. And do you know what? I am sick of it.
I am sick of adding new rules and keeping track of user records just because people are apparently not able to grasp the concept of such terms as flaws, overrated, hyped, etc.
I am sick of having to strike sveral people per day because of their incoherent ranting, regulars and non-regulars alike.
And I am sick and tired of writing tons of paragraphs everytime a new member who can't even be bothered to read the rules is challenging Naruto, Haruhi and other series with an obvious placing just because "it is fun", "we need more polls" and other reasons I could care less about.

We are not the normal MAL forums, we are a private club. We aren't forced to tolerate every little idiot that has no idea how the club, the rules, the English grammar or just thinking critically works. I founded this club to create a different culture than what I saw on MAL, not to get the exact discussions about Naruto & Code Geass, how "lolz shitty" every popular anime is, how "GENIUS!!11" every single one of each members favourite is and crappy recommendations for romcoms I can get in every other part of MAL.
So, do you really want to discuss Ichigo's greatness or how Naruto is the bestest character to ever grace mankind? Do you really want to place your favourites on/off every list because you feel like we praise/dismiss them too much although you damn well know they have flaws/are ignorant? Do you autimatically want to put every above average/slight subpar series to enlightenment/relations? Do you really want to bring in the same horrible, uninformed, biased and shitty attitude that made normal forums unbearable to this club? If so, just - and I'll be completely honest here - fuck off. I don't care if the club has 10, 100, 1k or whatever members. Why do you think the club rules include the wonderul sentence "DO NOT BE DUMB"? Discussions on normal MAL forums are dumb because 90% of all users are horrible posters who should never use the internet in the first palce as they are obviously not able to formulate a single coherent argument. There are many other clubs for idiots, don't infest this club with your stupidity.
You aren't forced to be in this club. Unlike normal forums, we want to create a small, tight community with a different approach than the rest. Don't like that? Leave. If you are only here because we are active, the "cool kids" or whatever and don't want to adapt why are you even posting? If you aren't interested in the community and dislike the way we do things you can obviously complain but don't expect us to do a 180° turn just because you think your precious little series has a doubtful reception in our community.

I said it before and I will say it once again: We expect you to be somewhat reasonable and intelligent. We don't want to spell out every mistake a series makes all the time because most of us did so dozens of times in other places, threads, etc. before and we expect you to be able to notice flaws and positive aspects. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case anymore. In fact, most of the voting rules and other stuff was implemented because people couldn't be bothered to think about what our club actually wants to be.

Other officers and quite a few regulars feel the same (I got more than several PMs about it), so next time you try to start the same pointless and dumb discussions that plague the general forums think twice. And if you don't want to think or personally view us as asshats, elitists or whatever else? Leave. Most regulars don't care. I don't care. I'd rather have a club with 30 users that are intelligent and come off as an asshole instead of having 1k+ users and tolerating every idiot on the forum.

Please do note that this rant is not targeted at all the new users that bring in some well-informed, diverging opinions but at the people who are responsible for the horrible quality of MAL in general. You know who you are, don't try to deny it.

Sorry, but this needed to be said and I believe honesty is the right decision in such a situation. And now excuse me, I'll get something to drink.
After that, I will watch some anime. I haven't been able to do it as much as I wanted to because of this club...

PS:
Saber is mostly added for her immense popularity despite her rather generic backstory as far as I am concerned. T/M is reusing her design a lot, she is the poster girl of the fate franchise and I and many others expected a lot more meat to her backstory. The character is not really bad, but she is indeed overhyped by a lot of people.

NidhoeggrJul 23, 2013 10:01 AM

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jul 23, 2013 10:06 AM

#441

Offline

Nov 2011

2817

What Nid said, pretty much. It's not fun for me to come back from a great weekend and see this shitstorm that I have to immediately jump into and start dealing with.

That all being said, if anyone has comments, questions, concerns, whatever, please message me so I can try to talk you through it.

Thanks!

Jul 23, 2013 10:09 AM

#442

Offline

Dec 2012

24355

Who is this directed at? because it doesn't fit for anyone. Unless you are just responding to me saying ''the way this club works is so..''. Huh?

Jul 23, 2013 11:40 AM

#443

Offline

Nov 2011

2817

A lot of people, yourself included. Please don't act like you are beyond faults, because that is part of the problem.

And yes, your constant "this club is so...' is part of the issue. If you don't like this club or you have problems with it, why are you here? And I say this to anyone who takes great issue with this clubs ideals.

We also get sick of people who come in here and act like they are doing us a great service by making demands because they 'just want to make the club better'.

If you have suggestions, then suggest. Don't demand. And, even better, privately message one of the admins about your suggestions.

As a quick reference:

Nid is the boss man and has say over everything
Alaba and Ducat are in charge of lists and polls, respectively
Meta is in charge of graphics
I'm in charge of dealing with user behavior
Forgone is in charge of reviews and the review account
The other admins are all in charge of everything else and all of us help out with everything, but that's the breakdown if you want to direct your suggestions/complaints somewhere. If you want to complain, best do it to Nid or myself.

AmberlehJul 23, 2013 12:17 PM

Jul 23, 2013 1:54 PM

#444

Offline

Nov 2009

14588

If you want an explanation on to why Saber is a bad character than I will go in to detail. First let me start off by stating she isn't "the worst" type of character, however many hail her as being a solid character, and this is truly a questionable statement to be making.

And comments like

SaberRitsu said:
The fact that they acknowledge her gender does not make the writers sexist pigs. In fact, when writing female characters with masculine qualities it's a crucial step. There has to be some justification for the character to be a woman in the first place.

made by someone defending saber make absolutely no sense whatsoever? What justification did they have to making Saber be a chick other than to appeal to fans? I really don't even think this is anything but an empty statement. So they decided to make King Arthur a female yet gave her a "masculine personality" and yet somehow this is a crucial step? Honestly if they were going to go this route why didn't they expand on the fact she was a female thrust in to playing the role of a male during a time when this was unheard of? They kind of were just like, "let's make king Arthur a female" -- They never justified anything, nor expanded on WHY King Arthur was a female ... Why wasn't Alexander or Gilgamesh a female too? They could have done it, they just needed to change the character design from male to female like they did with King Arthur.

But I digress, my biggest problem with Saber isn't even the fact that she is a female at all, it is the fact that she is supposedly someone who stands up for justice and honor yet never verbally takes a stand towards her own opinions. She literally gets slammed both by Alexander and Gilgamesh and what does she do? She just takes it ... For someone who was supposed to be one of history's "greats" why did she just let her own ideals get slammed? Sure the others said her views were weak, but if her conviction was really that shallow then why was she a King in the first place?

There is more though, she has almost no evidence of any type of personality, she is only ever shown with a disagreeable face of an emotionless face. Granted, one could say that annoyance, anger, or even the occasional sorrow are evidence of emotions, but that is as far as her emotions EVER go, she kind of appeared as just some passive character throughout the series. Her character was rather "diluted".

Sorry if this explanation is repetitive or doesn't make too much sense, pretty tired, but basically the point I am making is that Saber is an EXTREMELY bland character for no reason.

Pirating_NinjaJul 23, 2013 1:58 PM

Jul 23, 2013 2:21 PM

#445

Offline

Nov 2012

249

I gave you an explanation for why she's female and why she's getting "slammed" by Gilgamesh and Alexander but you simply ignored it.

Jul 23, 2013 2:33 PM

#446

Offline

Nov 2009

14588

Your response was that she was torn between being an ordinary human and the leader of a nation correct?

Then WHY was she the leader of the nation if she couldn't do it at all due to this dilemma, it seems you are placing the blame of her clear failure as a leader on the fact that she wants to be a normal woman ... Which, I am just going to say is EXTREMELY sexist but that really isn't the point. Why does it have to be a woman though, she could just have easily been a man torn between the desire to be a normal person and the leader of a nation, there really is no difference between these two dilemmas. Furthermore while it did mention at one point this dilemma it was insanely brief, if this truly was supposed to be what she was going through it was horrendously portrayed.

Jul 23, 2013 2:35 PM

#447

Offline

Nov 2011

2817

Zerkalo said:

Akichii said:

Zerkalo said:
-1 for Saber
What was so bad about her? I remember her to be one of the better characters in Fate/Zero

Why not mention some things that you think are good about her then?

She was an interesting character. Torn between wanting to be a ordinary woman of her time and having the responsibility for a whole nation. She doesn't know what she's supposed to do and the only character who is in an ethical dilemma (I'm not counting Kiritsugu because that utilitarism stuff was just stupid).
Saber was the only character who actually had the justification to be in the Holy Grail War.

Is this what you're talking about, Zerkalo? Because it's not much of an explanation.

Pirating Ninja pretty much voiced my opinion on her as well. There wasn't a reason for her to be a woman and as a HUUUUGGGEEEE Arthurian lore buff myself I was rather insulted at how poorly they handled King Arthur being a woman. I can think of at least 3 different ways they could have made that whole thing make at least some sense, even through a little bit of BS, but they didn't even try. It was just "HERE'S KING ARTHUR HE'S A SHE NOW GO FAP PLZ".

1.They could have made up some story about how it was actually Gwenyfar running the kingdom the entire time, so in a sense she was the real King Arthur while Arthur himself was only a figurehead, thus Saber would have technically been Gwenyfar.

2. They never explain the whole Morgaine le Fey giving BIRTH TO ARTHUR'S SON, you know, the kid who caused the kingdom to fall? Mordred? They could have given an explanation somewhere in there like "Morgaine was a sorceress so she took the form of a man and took the egg from Arturia (or whatever her name was) and implanted it in herself to give birth to Mordred".

3. They mention Lancelot and Gwenyfar and even the affair, but they don't go into how that dynamic worked with Arthur being a woman, AT ALL. WHY NOT? That would have been interesting.

TLDR: There was no good explanation for Arthur being a woman other than it made it easier for other characters to belittle her and blame the fall of her kingdom on being a woman who should have been playing with other little girls. Oh and don't get me started on the fact that she was supposed to be masculine but FOUGHT IN A GODDAMN DRESS. Cool costume design? Oh yes, yes it is, practical for fighting? HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH no. Which anime takes liberties with all the time, but if she was meant to be posing as a man and proving herself a worthy fighter, what the hell was the point?

Edit: And yeah, Zerkalo, I didn't want to say anything but Pirating is right. Your defense of it is actually pretty sexist. =/

Jul 23, 2013 2:51 PM

#448

Offline

Nov 2012

249

Why are you all so focused on King Arthur being a woman? TM simply choose to make her a woman. It's not like the King Arthur-tale is a sacred tale or that noone is allowed to change details about.

I never saw someone complaining about Alexander being a 2 meter tall bodybuilding ginger just for some more broservice or Gilgamesh being a blond androgynous cunt for the female fan service.
They just took these characters out of their original tales and made something new up. But how would that affect anything.
For example I'm a big fan of Monte Christo but didn't care at all that Gankutsuou changed a lot.

And it isn't sexist. Just because Saber didn't want that responsibility that doesn't mean every woman is like that. It's just how Saber was characterized. And yes that dilemma was there the whole time.

/edit:
You act like there its a tabu to make women weak in art.
Not every female in anime can be strong and confident. It would be boring if every woman in anime would be like for example Nausicaa or Motoko.

YellowlineJul 23, 2013 3:28 PM

Jul 23, 2013 4:58 PM

#449

Offline

Nov 2009

14588

You were the one who argued that Saber being a female was justified, I merely pointed out that it wasn't. The only reason to make her a female was to appeal to the audience.

Furthermore Saber's character was supposed to be some strong female character that stood for justice, although granted, had an inner struggle. However, this "strong character" never shined through, which is precisely why she was a poor and overrated character.

And what is sexist is NOT that saber had the dilemma, but the fact that if the dilemma is what justifies Saber, that they made Saber a female. Since the dilemma could just as easily been portrayed through a male character. The fact that she had to be a female to face the dilemma that "she was put in to a position of power but didn't want it" is what is sexist. Since a man could have played that role too, so why then, was it necessary to make her a female in the first place, other than for fan service?

Jul 23, 2013 5:34 PM

#450