Shingeki no Kyojin Episode 2 Discussion

Slurpentine said:
I saw that post. You agree, no?

Pusswookie said:

That the Armored Titan scene is much better in the anime? Yeah.

kaykenner54 said:
That moment when you finish episode 2 then get mad at yourself because you have to wait days until episode 3 (even though you are reading the manga)


My life right now

Pusswookie said:

Ok, I'm just going to re-post this because it got over-shadowed by my Mikasa post, and it pertains to this conversation:
In my opinion, I didn't really notice the story alluding to many themes so much as it was focused on portraying the visceral and indiscriminate nature of death [by Titans] and the subsequent mental deterioration of the soldiers when faced with these enigmatic [and overwhelming] creatures.
Maybe there was a little something about how quick people are to ostracize someone who isn't congruent to their perception of a "proper" human being? It doesn't really delve much into that though.
Aside from that, I didn't really notice any "super deep" themes in the manga; this, of course, isn't to say that it wasn't fucking awesome. A page turner, certainly.
Honestly, I would say that there's the [very human] theme of haplessly struggling against a seemingly inevitable fate, that being the downfall of mankind, but almost every time a character started spouting an inspirational speech along those lines, they died. :/

pming said:


Super-deep themes.

From Episode 1 and 2 - Hannes offhand explanation about that it's better when soldiers are slacking off since it means the times are peaceful.

How even Hannes and his buddy were actually more heroic than what their "lazy useless" intro to the viewers more than suggested.

Hannes again - he left Eren's mom to her death because he was so scared, but then he was the one insisting that the gate be kept open as long as possible. Basically, he became "Eren" in episode 2, arguing against the other soldiers. Even his buddy who derided Eren in episode 1 became "Eren", yelling at the soldiers who ran away when they saw the gates closing.

Armin - when we first saw him, he was being bullied and Eren and Mikasa had to save him. In episode 2, role-switch, he was the one who got the soldiers to back down before they hurt Eren more.

The whole emphasis on food is a huge deal often overlooked in other fantasy stories. A lot of people think that it was stupid to send out 250000 people to retake Wall Maria just because of food shortage, but it's very historical relevant. Many wars and revolutions started because of a lack of resources, especially basic resources such as food.

Pusswookie said:

Those aren't even actual themes [perhaps barring the last one], much less their super-deep brethren. Those are events and character traits. The fact that Hannes was fearful when confronted by a Titan directly but "brave" when it came to saving others under a different situation just makes him a rounded character. This likewise applies to his philosophy about peace-time and soldiers. A theme would be the gradual stagnation of Mankind due to their willingness to hide away behind their walls [and ignore the proximate danger of the Titans], or Eren's initial perception of the walls being a barrier between him and the outside world [his insatiable curiosity]. Those are themes. As it happens, my pointing out of said themes has subsequently proved myself wrong, so I'll admit that the show had the semblance of themes, but chose not to delve into them. Armin being bullied and then being saved by Eren [it was actually Mikasa that made them run, but whatever] then later begging the soldiers to stop beating Eren wasn't even a role-switch, much less a theme. That was actually a really irrelevant thing to point out.
Lastly, there is absolutely no correlation between the recovery attempt, which was really just thinly veiled population regulation, and people instigating wars over food. At all. People fighting over food is not, in and of itself, a theme, or at the very least it's not a deep one. The somewhat dystopian setting and being forced to live in, for all intents and purposes, a cage due to outside forces could be a theme however.
Sorry if I sound like a dick in this response, but...maybe we have different interpretations as to what constitutes a theme?

pming said:
I'm completely okay with most people just watching/reading for the people vs giants (surface) theme.

pming said:


Theme - subject, idea, thought

I consider what I stated as deep or super-deep "themes, ideas, thoughts", because they aren't obvious and a lot of people miss the deeper meaning underlying them.

For example, a lot of people think that SnK is just people fighting against giant man-eaters. Yeah, it's about that, but it's more about characters dealing with survival, loss, tragedy, death and so forth. It's about people continuing to struggle to live and to fight despite overwhelming odds and despite having to witness and survive their friends and comrades being eaten right in front of them.

Also, I'm really not interested in arguing about the meaning of a word. If you don't think SnK has super-deep themes as per your definition, that's okay with me. I'm completely okay with most people just watching/reading for the people vs giants (surface) theme.

Pusswookie said:

Let me start with the positive here by saying that what you pointed out, about Mankind's perpetual struggle against an overwhelming foe, is a theme [albeit a broad one]. The problem is, everything else that you pointed out has about the same thematic relevance as Mikasa forcefully shoving bread into Eren's mouth. Secondly, let's stop saying "super deep," because I can't apply that to anything seriously. Also, I can't imagine people not noticing those things that you said weren't obvious unless they were offhandedly doing something else while watching the show. This is because what you previously pointed out were scenes, moments on screen.
I think that you're confusing themes with implied character traits. The first scene with Hannes shows us that he isn't your typical slacker, and that he actually cares about the mentality of the commoners. The second scene with Hannes, where he tells them not to close the gate, implies that even though he's afraid for his own life, he still values that of others'. The Armin scenes imply that he's a logical, pragmatic thinker. See? These are all implications, not themes.
To be fair, that does mean you were right in using the word underlying though.
Lastly, the initial point [Mankind's perpetual struggle against so and so and all that] is somewhat subverted in that 1. Whenever a character actually invokes this within their dialogue, they promptly die afterwards and 2. .
Damn I really got into this. I am sincerely [and I mean it, sincerely] sorry if this came across as me berating you, especially after you said you didn't want to argue but, I mean, I just couldn't not reply. :/

purufeido said:
Humans artillery can kill normal titans by 12-pounder muzzle loading gun

Darklight0303 said:


When they hit. LIke they said this episode, they have a hard time hitting moving targets with those things.

Darklight0303 said:


When they hit. LIke they said this episode, they have a hard time hitting moving targets with those things.

ssjokg said:

Pretty sure that they dont do shit unless they somehow hit the back of the neck.

Forgetfulness said:


So I'm guessing they
?

Farvahar said:


Yeah...my guess is it was before they realized their weakness and just aimed for the part they thought will do more damage. And now they can't do shit cause most of their firepower is depleted. When you don't have the luxury of accuracy, all you can do is rely on numbers and they obviously don't have that anymore...I mean 5-6 cannons for a whole town?

ryshin said:
still no battle action.. just one side domination..
guess i will keep waiting..

ryshin said:
still no battle action.. just one side domination..
guess i will keep waiting..

ryshin said:
still no battle action.. just one side domination..
guess i will keep waiting..

Darklight0303 said:


Even that won't work. Since they are defending. So the Titans are always FACING the cannons and as braindead as some of them may be, they won't turn around for the cannons to blast them in the back.

Akanezora said:

Pusswookie said:

Akanezora said:

Oh you, stop making me fall in love with you.

AnimageNeby said:
What I don't quite understand (since in-story it doesn't make much logical sense): why didn't they (humans) simple make deep cellars, or even gangways to places where it's safe, like the second tower?

Certainly, they have the capability for it, and it *must* have occurred to them to just dig holes/cellars/etc. so that the giants couldn't reach them! That way, they could go to the second wall underground, or, if that was too far, they could just have sweat it out underground, and came above ground at night and go to the second wall that way.

Come to think of it....why didn't they just kill off all the giants at night?

Now, I know it's all fantasy and all that, but this isn't OP: they DO want to portray it as being 'realistic' within the story-setting, so the reactions and reasonings are portrayed as being consistent and realistic. But in that case, I think this is an oversight, because it's really easy to limit the losses by simply providing a way out underground. So why didn't they? Makes little sense...which is why I think it's an oversight on the part of the mangaka to not consider this obvious thing.

pming said:
First off, most of the population of the first wall did reach the second wall. I think they only lost 10k while 200k made it to the second wall. This isn't too bad considering that they weren't prepared and the Titans had two surprise weapons up their sleeve.

But, then food shortage happened.

It does look like the humans were dumb and weren't prepared, but they did have defenses and procedures in place which not only kept the Titans out for a century but would have allowed secondary defenses to fall into place had there been a breach.

Also, even if they were super-prepared, the Colossal Titan - Armored Titan combo would still have kicked their asses.

I do agree that humanity was dumb, but more in not having enough food stockpiles ready in case they lost a great wall. But even this isn't unrealistic. Even these days, most people in the world still don't get enough to eat.

-removed spoily bit-

pming said:

I do agree that humanity was dumb, but more in not having enough food stockpiles ready in case they lost a great wall. But even this isn't unrealistic. Even these days, most people in the world still don't get enough to eat.

-removed spoily bit-

Darklight0303 said:


It will be explained in time. Things are not as clear cut as you might think after only 2 episodes

AnimageNeby said:
Well, I've read the manga and it ain't well explained there neither. On the contrary, there it is clearly indicated that

AnimageNeby said:
blah blah blah

Pusswookie said:
If I hate Eren will I be cool like everyone else?
By the way, I too couldn't help but think about them possibly living underground and coming out at night to kill the lumbering trespassers, but that's such an obvious oversight that I can't imagine the writer actually made that mistake.
Also, [beware of spoilers, ye who may read this]
Even if it was a guarantee that the proximate danger of the Titans would disappear at night, it would still make things [like growing crops] that much more difficult.
Honestly, their giant wall may have worked if they didn't go setting their own death flags, what with their "Oh come on, Mankind hasn't been attacked in a hundred years!" Anyone who's properly genre-savvy knows that they were practically begging for cosmic retribution.

antonn said:


The points you're arguing have been gone over or hinted at in the manga, so dunno what you have read.


As for the 10,000 people that you're whining about. That's just the number that reportedly didn't make it. It doesn't literally mean they were all eaten right away. Which is very realistic considering the amount of people that couldn't fit on the boats when the gate was broken down, plus all the mayhem before then. Hell even assuming that some of them very well might have safely gone into hiding, how are they going to make it all the way back to the second wall on foot? Also how would the people within the walls know if there were any survivors in hiding? Cell phones? GPS?
And if you read the manga, which you supposedly have, you would know sending out reconnaissance teams to looks for survivors isn't exactly a viable option. As the only soldiers with any balls and/or crazy enough to go outside the walls suffer heavy losses when doing so.