premature rating = fail.

May 4, 2008 8:09 AM

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Jun 2007

2253

How is having no depth a good thing? Having no depth is good if we're talking about Power Rangers (which TTGL reminded me of with the mecha transformations), but we're talking about a show that adults rate highly here; not merely entertainment for 5 year olds.

I just love how the TTGL fans insist you don't "get it" if you don't think it's the best anime ever. I'd love to hear/read what it is I don't get?

With regards to your spoiler, the mass death in that episode had near to no impact on me since the series had already gone beyond simply being stupid at that stage and the handling of their deaths was pathetic. If you want to see a powerful death scene that has meaning try watching episode 18 of Gankutsuou.

"sends a message you can do anything you want"
I notice that a lot of TTGL have confidence issues since they say watching TTGL gave them confidence. Aside from an anime giving confidence being rather sad, being a loser is no reason to rate a series 10/10.

Gankutsuou: Updated Review

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May 4, 2008 10:07 AM

#182

Palash

Offline

Dec 2007

What im saying is, not every thing that has depth is good, and not every thing that doesn't is bad, one could argue all the biblical references in EVA make the show great, i, fell asleep.

Aionic said:
I just love how the TTGL fans insist you don't "get it" if you don't think it's the best anime ever. I'd love to hear/read what it is I don't get?

i cant explain to you what you don't get, if you just, well, don't get it what TTGL did was incredible, it took the rules of what an anime is and threw them out the window, the show provided incredible humor, incredible drama, and incredible action. a complete experience for short, if you didn't find it so, like i said before, its your opinion, and altho it counts for something, its not much when the masses think otherwise

Aionic said:
With regards to your spoiler,

spoil tag that, would you?

as for Gankutsuou, don't know it, il check it out

Aionic said:
"sends a message you can do anything you want"
I notice that a lot of TTGL have confidence issues since they say watching TTGL gave them confidence. Aside from an anime giving confidence being rather sad, being a loser is no reason to rate a series 10/10.

:
:
:
that is, not the case.
TTGL came right after, and during, really heavy shows, like death note and code geass, which i love
but insted of that dark, and serious stuff, it presented itself with awesome color, awesome, funny, well designed characters, and yes, the message that you can do any thing you want,
i was watching death note at the time, missed it druing its airing time, and after watching that, i could balance it out with TTGL.

so again il end this rant with, you just don't get it, im not trying to brain wash you into loving anime, im simply explaining, again that
fact: there are thousands more people who love TTGL then people who don't.

PalashMay 4, 2008 10:17 AM

May 4, 2008 10:52 AM

#183

Torisunanohokori

Offline

Jun 2007

1478

"You just don't get it", huh? I've never liked this particular line of reasoning. It's a cop-out for opinions you can't justify enough to continue an argument. Also, that "fact" at the end is anything but:

# of MAL users: over 60,000 (my bad about the 1 mil)
# of people who gave TTGL an 8 or higher: 4649

The numbers just don't add up. If you had said like vs. hate, then it would have been different, but people who haven't seen it, by default, don't love it. I'll admit, though, that it is an an excellent show as far as being dynamic and easy to digest goes. (FYI - It got a 10 from me)

Reading all of this makes me again realize what a tinderbox the toplist is. It seems like everybody has some problem with one or another of the top anime, and that all individual grudges are being played out here. Strangely, a couple of the older tops aren't really getting that. (GTO, Monster, HnI, Mushishi, etc.) Maybe it's because their fans were solid even before MAL started.

TorisunanohokoriMay 4, 2008 6:56 PM

Shameless Blog Plugging: animetics.net

May 4, 2008 11:11 AM

#184

Spades-Deuce

Offline

Oct 2007

3705

Why has this become a fight about Gurren Lagann? Guys, just accept that everyone likes different things for different reasons - not everyone has to like the show. And also, just because you may not like the series does not give you the right to go and have a go at everyone who likes it, and at the show itself. I personally love it and it is my all time favourite series, but I have never once used the phrase "GAR", because it sounds stupid. Please don't assume that all the fans are the same. Thanks ;3

May 4, 2008 12:33 PM

#185

wakka9ca

Observer

Offline

Nov 2007

5283

Torisunanohokori said:

Reading all of this makes me again realize what a tinderbox the toplist is. It seems like everybody has some problem with one or another of the top anime, and that all individual grudges are being played out here. Strangely, a couple of the older tops aren't really getting that. (GTO, Monster, HnI, Mushishi, etc.) Maybe it's because their fans were solid even before MAL started.

It's because they really merit the top positions, unlike Guren Lagann.. I give it a 8, it's alright as series, but as number one I havve a problem with.

And this is about Code Geass not TTGL.... Both are overhyped.. they are WAY much more anime better than both of them. I can name at least 15 on the spot.

bla bla bla

The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.

Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?

May 4, 2008 12:47 PM

#186

Cren

Offline

Dec 2007

118

It could just be me, but it seems the most obvious solution is simply to remove currently airing series from the rankings. That way the series is complete, so the ratings will be more valid in the eyes of some. Obviously, there are going to be complaints about what the top is simply because people have different tastes (for example, I think it's almost criminal that Evangelion doesn't hold the top spot), but at least it won't seem as ridiculous as this does.

Personally, I use ratings while shows are still airing as a way of organizing my priority for watching certain shows, and to keep track of my opinion of them as the series progresses, so I don't see anything wrong with having ratings in general, but it does unnerve me a bit to see a show on its fifth episode in the top 5, regardless of what it is.

世界は美しくなんかない。そしてそれ故に、美しい

May 4, 2008 1:41 PM

#187

Rolex

Offline

Nov 2007

710

Anime is some serious business. You aren't allowed to watch these cartoons for entertainment, you have to watch it for depth (better drop CG then?).

Aionic said:

TTGL is about manliness (TTGLtards call it 'GAR'), nothing being impossible, bright colours and stupidity. As a result, the masses think it's the beat thing since sliced bread.

I find that statement amusing, considering this thread exists because the masses think CG is best thing since sliced bread. Show CC eating some pizza or Suzaku being kicked in the head and CG R2 will probably end up taking #1.

May 4, 2008 4:27 PM

#188

wakka9ca

Observer

Offline

Nov 2007

5283

Astaroth said:
Show CC eating some pizza or Suzaku being kicked in the head and CG R2 will probably end up taking #1.

that would be so funny.

bla bla bla

The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.

Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?

May 4, 2008 4:34 PM

#189

Talamare

Offline

Apr 2008

914

Torisunanohokori said:
"You just don't get it", huh? I've never liked this particular line of reasoning. It's a cop-out for opinions you can't justify enough to continue an argument. Also, that "fact" at the end is anything but:

# of MAL users: over 1 million
# of people who gave TTGL an 8 or higher: 4649

The numbers just don't add up. If you had said like vs. hate, then it would have been different, but people who haven't seen it, by default, don't love it. I'll admit, though, that it is an an excellent show as far as being dynamic and easy to digest goes. (FYI - It got a 10 from me)

MAL only has around 60k users

Aionic said:
How is having no depth a good thing? Having no depth is good if we're talking about Power Rangers (which TTGL reminded me of with the mecha transformations), but we're talking about a show that adults rate highly here; not merely entertainment for 5 year olds.

I just love how the TTGL fans insist you don't "get it" if you don't think it's the best anime ever. I'd love to hear/read what it is I don't get?

With regards to your spoiler, the mass death in that episode had near to no impact on me since the series had already gone beyond simply being stupid at that stage and the handling of their deaths was pathetic. If you want to see a powerful death scene that has meaning try watching episode 18 of Gankutsuou.

"sends a message you can do anything you want"
I notice that a lot of TTGL have confidence issues since they say watching TTGL gave them confidence. Aside from an anime giving confidence being rather sad, being a loser is no reason to rate a series 10/10.

Not everything has to be overly serious, a light hearted show every now and then is good after watching a lineup of phychological heavy drama they make you question if you should really be alive. You should rate animes to what they attempt to do, and to animes that attempt to do the same. Do not rate them in comparison to other genre, Apples are not Oranges they do not taste a like and neither is better then the other, you may like Apples while I like Oranges, Why? Does it matter? I just do!

Also the top anime list is not something you should use as a basis to which animes are good, since all the top anime list is; its a popularity contest. Its based around the fact that the masses likes one item. You REALLY should not care what anime is on top, nor should you care if others are rating a show too high or if others think you are rating a show too high (or low), The ratings are made as a personal judgement and you should not skew it to fit someone elses believes.

I personally rated both TTGL and CGR2 a 10, and I REALLY dont care if you hate me for it or not, I have plenty of shows rated high, and plenty of shows rated low. This is what I think of the show and it should NOT influence if YOU like it or not. Its as simple as that

May 4, 2008 4:41 PM

#190

BadSeafood

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Jun 2007

453

I did not think this thread could sink any lower.

Down another shot.

May 4, 2008 8:37 PM

#191

Friendlysoul

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Oct 2007

3726

Rating is no longer fail :P

May 5, 2008 12:42 AM

#192

Westlo

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Oct 2007

971

Aionic said:
Going back to the plot twist copying, EP1 copied the part where Light forgot he was Kira and lost his power, turning Lelouch into a good guy who knew nothing of his past as Zero. Of course, Lelouch got his powers back.. the only difference being that Lelouch getting his powers back wasn't part of a plan Lelouch had come up with.

Are you trying to say that Death Note was the orignator of a protagonist losing his memory? Because when you look at the massive differences in the situation between Light and Lelouch that's all you have left. I also like how you try and pass of how they lost their memories as the only difference and a minor one at that. Having your memories forceably erased by your enemy so he can use you to lure out his target is such a ripoff off Light removing his own memories so he can fool L.

What a ripoff!

May 7, 2008 6:44 AM

#193

babykeiji

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Feb 2008

1340

What the heck is happening?! It's now #3!! Guys, what's happening!?!!!!

May 7, 2008 12:05 PM

#194

kirAth-shiAue

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Mar 2007

843

premature rating = fail but so is revenge rating. Not only is revenge rating fail, but immature.

May 12, 2008 7:46 AM

#195

Chen

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Jan 2008

Code Geass R2 scored 8.97
Rurouni Kenshin scored 8.98
lol, just make it 1st

May 13, 2008 8:43 PM

#196

CookedCelery

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Mar 2008

117

O GAWD
it's second now.

May 15, 2008 9:30 AM

#197

gioss

Offline

Jun 2007

479

CookedCelery said:
O GAWD
it's second now.

XD owned. Two or three more episodes and it'll be first.

May 16, 2008 8:32 PM

#198

edwarx

Offline

Jun 2007

135

I love the series so far, but it can't be on #2, I hope that with time the series will drop to the right place, someplace in top25 but definitely not #2 or #3.

May 25, 2008 5:43 AM

#199

moozooh

Go read Medalist

Offline

Apr 2007

284

Well, to be honest, I don't agree with anything taking its place within top-5 (except for maybe Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo), but it doesn't concern me much, if at all. I do, however, strongly dislike any kind of hype, because it can carry a lot of unwanted information around its object, be it positive or negative in its connotation. There are people like me who are using ratings for a reason, which in my case is searching for movies/series to put on my to-watch list. I just don't want these values inflated without reason — not for CGR2, not for anything else.

Also, opinions:

CG season 2 is worse than season 1;
TTGL is not the greatest anime ever, nor is CG;
constant plot twists don't add much to depth, instead they poke holes in the plot and make it inadequate;
fanboyism sucks, stop it.

FAL Enthusiast :: Reviewer :: Interest Stack Creator

Jun 1, 2008 3:56 PM

#200

Ani-Blast

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Jul 2007

368

Ratings are always bias; I hardly find it even possible for the majority of users on this site to like ANY ONE SHOW being Number One over another.

きみ　は　だれ　だい？
ぼく　は　ラムボ！
ぼく　は　だれ　だい？
きみ　は　ラムボ！
ラムボ　なんでし！

Jun 1, 2008 4:02 PM

#201

moozooh

Go read Medalist

Offline

Apr 2007

284

There is nothing inherently wrong or unwanted in bias, because that is the basis for any subjective preference (any human-made preference is subjective; anyone who claims themself to be objective about their preferences is just fooling themself). And that being said, it is exactly what I want to know: what people like.

However, as demonstrated in this thread, there is always a bad way to do things.

FAL Enthusiast :: Reviewer :: Interest Stack Creator

Jun 1, 2008 7:50 PM

#202

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

Anime is a form of entertainment (though to some, it's a way of life -_-).

With entertainment, the main point is that you need to be able to enjoy it in some way. Most of the things we rate in relation to anime funnel into that end.

We want our anime to be beautifully animated or at least appropriately represented because if it is, it's more enjoyable. We want music to be well orchestrated and appropriately used within the context of what it's trying to accomplish because doing so helps accentuate what's happening in the anime (thus making it easier to understand and more enjoyable).

We want a good story (sometimes with depth and sometimes without it -- both are a unique flavor and both have their pluses and minuses. note that I seperate good and depth. the two are different things). When a story is good, it's more entertaining and enjoyable rather than incoherent and frustrating.

We want memorable, lively, and sometimes realistic characters because those elements make it easier for us to relate to them, understand them, and enjoy experiencing a story with them at its core.

Everything goes back down to enjoyment.

Saying that you didn't enjoy something is fine. enjoyment in itself is somewhat subjective as different people find enjoyment in different elements -- it's not totally subjective as production quality isn't subjective, it's very objective. What you can't take away from an anime whether you like it or not is that it's well produced.

Even if you take away TTGL's (and CG's) stories and characters because of personal biases and hating them, you can't take away the truth that both are very well animated and flavorful in their designs (for a weekly release anime). you can't take away the truth that both have at the very least sufficient musical scripts. you can't take away the truth that both have done a great job putting together a competent cast of VAs.

You can't take away the truth that both try to put you in a very good position to enjoy their stories and their characters.

Whenever I see an anime that respects its viewers with that very basic (but not always given) effort, I return that respect to the anime and it's creators by not making trashy comments or totally biased and idiotic claims about it or the people that enjoy it (like what has happened in this topic).

If something is enjoyable and put in the effort to be so, just let it be instead of being all ass hurt that it's actually being enjoyed by people.

Jun 2, 2008 3:12 AM

#203

moozooh

Go read Medalist

Offline

Apr 2007

284

Brian333 said:
enjoyment in itself is somewhat subjective as different people find enjoyment in different elements -- it's not totally subjective as production quality isn't subjective, it's very objective. What you can't take away from an anime whether you like it or not is that it's well produced.

Even if you take away TTGL's (and CG's) stories and characters because of personal biases and hating them, you can't take away the truth that both are very well animated and flavorful in their designs (for a weekly release anime). you can't take away the truth that both have at the very least sufficient musical scripts. you can't take away the truth that both have done a great job putting together a competent cast of VAs.

You can't take away the truth that both try to put you in a very good position to enjoy their stories and their characters.

Sorry to interrupt, but, while your point is agreeable, all this is still totally subjective. Production "quality" isn't something inherent to different anime products; to appraise it, you need to compare one anime with some other from your experience and decide which you like more. You don't scientifically determine if the VAs are fitting to the characters they portray, you do it by judging whether do you think they fit. Same with the rest.

If you're doing it the first time, you obviously don't have any material to compare with, which is the prime reason many of us got hooked to nonsensical super robot TV series, or Pokemon, or something else neat and stupid, as little kids in late 80s or early 90s. But as our experience grew, we turned to other things because these didn't entertain us anymore (barring nostalgia reasons). Still, they entertained us a lot when we were seeing them for the first time. This is called floating standards. Judging the "effort to entertain" is very, very misleading.

I would go as far as to say drawing any lines between what's good/right/fitting in certain anime and what's not (or any other form of art) on a non-personal level, and expect anyone else to agree upon them, is utterly naive.

FAL Enthusiast :: Reviewer :: Interest Stack Creator

Jun 2, 2008 5:04 AM

#204

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

moozooh said:
Sorry to interrupt, but, while your point is agreeable, all this is still totally subjective. Production "quality" isn't something inherent to different anime products; to appraise it, you need to compare one anime with some other from your experience and decide which you like more. You don't scientifically determine if the VAs are fitting to the characters they portray, you do it by judging whether do you think they fit. Same with the rest.

when looking at production, quality is rather scientific. that's why a lot of things that are higher budget productions naturally have better production quality. it's not subjective like you're suggesting. there are numerous controllable factors in the quality of an anime because quality is something you have to pay for most of the time.

you have to pay for a higher frame rate (and thus better animation fluidity). you have to pay for the ability to make your individual frames more detailed and sometimes more colorful. you have to pay for things like CG supported animation (like we see in rebuild and stuff).

all those things help the quality of animation. this isn't subjective. there is a quality gap between a animation work done at 15 frames and one done at 60 frames. there is a quality gap in work that depends on how many key frames there are.

the same goes for music. there is a noticeable difference between getting a masterpiece music script composed by a world renowned musician and performed by a world renowned orchestra and using some locally composed and performed piece. Dishing out the cash and putting in the effort to really sign on and take advantage of good music talent for intros, ending, and insert tracks helps the presentation of anime. this isn't subjective.

if quality was totally subjective, then why are certain directors paid more than others? it's because they guarantee quality and bring it with them to whatever they touch.

first time or not, I know something shitty when I see it. it doesn't matter if I've seen another sample of anime. if something has stick figures for frame detail and runs at 15 frames with music that sounds like it's from some 8-bit videogame soundtrack all while failing to portray and eventually butchering a deep, touching, and great story, I know something is wrong.

I know that I'm going to be pissed because I KNOW that the effort is not there.

And like I said, this is about enjoyment. I don't care if it's the best of its class or how it compares to other works. The end point is do I enjoy it? When the quality is there, it's naturally easier to enjoy and thus I respect that effort enough to not post trashy comments of idiotic statements regarding a work and its fans.

removed-userJun 2, 2008 5:09 AM

Jun 5, 2008 4:58 PM

#205

brass2themax

Offline

Aug 2007

171

When a show like Geass comes along and the fanboys start pouring in, you lose sight of some great works that a few years ago were still remembered. Just because something is new and shiny doesn't mean it should rock your socks.

Geass is flomping in Japan anyway, that's why I don't waste my time with it, even though I've seen a bit of it. I hope it gets cancelled, though I know that won't happen because it's all about selling the DVDs to fanboys who most likely won't even watch them.

Jun 21, 2008 4:28 PM

#206

moozooh

Go read Medalist

Offline

Apr 2007

284

Brian333 said:
when looking at production, quality is rather scientific. that's why a lot of things that are higher budget productions naturally have better production quality. it's not subjective like you're suggesting. there are numerous controllable factors in the quality of an anime because quality is something you have to pay for most of the time.

This covers only a part of the "container", and much less the "content", and thus doesn't play much of a role to me. The amount of budget says nothing about how much I will enjoy the piece; moreover, it doesn't warrant anything at all.

I mean, I spent months on ADoM, a free ASCII roguelike. No presentation, no budget, but months of pure and honest enjoyment. What does that say about quality, or effort, or anything?

Brian333 said:
if quality was totally subjective, then why are certain directors paid more than others? it's because they guarantee quality and bring it with them to whatever they touch.

Ignoring the directors that make their own movies, a director is seen as an investment that will supposedly increase the revenue through their superior direction, or just their name. "Guaranteed quality" is a myth; sucky movies happen all the time, if not most of the time, not matter how much does the director want for his job.

See also: team sports. You can invest a hundred millions in a player that has an impressive list of achievements, but there's a good chance they'll doesn't change anything for your team, or even make it worse due to the lack of proper team play from their side.

Brian333 said:
first time or not, I know something shitty when I see it. it doesn't matter if I've seen another sample of anime.

That's excellent, did you use this line of reasoning in the pre-teen age, too? Even with the first cartoons/movies/books/whatever you've been exposed to? Otherwise you did have something to refer to prior to the appraisement, and believe it or not, every bit matters.

Brian333 said:
if something has stick figures for frame detail and runs at 15 frames with music that sounds like it's from some 8-bit videogame soundtrack all while failing to portray and eventually butchering a deep, touching, and great story, I know something is wrong.

I know that I'm going to be pissed because I KNOW that the effort is not there.

What if that was the author's intent? Or what if the "deep, touching, and great story" never existed in the first place, being just an illusion fueled by your frustration?

It's just me, but I'm of the opinion that things like that, once detected and believed in, can't be hindered by a lacking presentation, unless it's presentation you want to see and not the story behind it. Because your words made it sound as if all the pioneering endeavours in the field of arts, be it literature, cinematography, drawn arts, performed arts, etc., were all failures from the start back when no sufficient production quality you're talking of was even technically achievable.

The first cartoons were even worse than what you've just described, and believe me, no-one at the time complained about presentation. The fact that now the audience would likely endlessly complain about having an all-around great story encased in a presentation from the "before-technology" era just tells how spoiled it has become. Because when art turns into an industry, form prevails over matter, because it's easier to relate to by the audience, and thus easier to make profit off.

Brian333 said:
And like I said, this is about enjoyment. I don't care if it's the best of its class or how it compares to other works. The end point is do I enjoy it? When the quality is there, it's naturally easier to enjoy and thus I respect that effort enough to not post trashy comments of idiotic statements regarding a work and its fans.

Well, whatever floats your boat!

FAL Enthusiast :: Reviewer :: Interest Stack Creator

Jun 22, 2008 11:44 PM

#207

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

moozooh said:

This covers only a part of the "container", and much less the "content", and thus doesn't play much of a role to me. The amount of budget says nothing about how much I will enjoy the piece; moreover, it doesn't warrant anything at all.

I mean, I spent months on ADoM, a free ASCII roguelike. No presentation, no budget, but months of pure and honest enjoyment. What does that say about quality, or effort, or anything?

First, the logic in your words is flawed. If a container doesn't exist then nothing is contained and thus there is no content. We all know that with anime, that is not the case. There are always ideas before there is a container. They might be brilliant ideas but the expression of them in a visual medium is what dictates exactly how we understand those ideas.

This is coming from someone who works within the arts. I've seen plenty of work that has great, great ideas behind it but the execution was so poor that they wouldn't transfer to the viewers. The result? People walk away from your work with nothing. Your ideas don't matter if people can't see and understand them.

moozooh said:
I mean, I spent months on ADoM, a free ASCII roguelike. No presentation, no budget, but months of pure and honest enjoyment. What does that say about quality, or effort, or anything?

That's great but did you ever stop to think about what exactly was expressed? I'm not familiar with ADoM but I have a rough idea about the situation you're describing. You're talking about appropriateness. With the situation you were dealing with, the content was appropriately represented. If it was something upscale, it would lose the charm that comes with being a roguelike.

I played DnD and ADnD when I was young. We've seen the countless videogame spin-offs that have emerged from the D20 system and yet the reality of the situation is that they never had the allure or thrill of holding actual dice in your hands and throwing them out. None of those games could capture the freedom and flexibility of DnD. For the content, paper and pencil was the appropriate medium and gaming technology at that point simply wasn't good enough to represent it appropriately (and it still isn't even now).

So, when looking at anime, sometimes the content dictates exactly what quality of animation there needs to be. If it's something very informal (like Chibi Maruko-chan or Crayon Shin-chan) then a looser, more childish form of animation is definitely acceptable. But, if we're dealing with something like CG, Ghost in the Shell or Evangelion, you're going to need the presentation power to get your points across. Countless series have been butchered by bad animation. Great manga originals have been totally dismantled when adapted into anime.

So no, you don't need something to compare it to. Quality is quality. Just because you can get away with a lower standard of work because of appropriateness doesn't mean quality isn't quality. And my point was that with relevant work (and the work I originally referenced was TTGL and CG) you need that quality for the content to be properly communicated. It was given in both cases so I'll respect that very basic effort and give them the pat on their backs they deserve.

moozooh said:
Ignoring the directors that make their own movies, a director is seen as an investment that will supposedly increase the revenue through their superior direction, or just their name. "Guaranteed quality" is a myth; sucky movies happen all the time, if not most of the time, not matter how much does the director want for his job.

See also: team sports. You can invest a hundred millions in a player that has an impressive list of achievements, but there's a good chance they'll doesn't change anything for your team, or even make it worse due to the lack of proper team play from their side.

Guaranteed quality is not a myth and I don't see how you could possibly say that. If you're dealing with a rookie director fresh out of film school compared to someone like Steven Spielberg, there is going to be a huge and noticeable gap in vision and intelligence. Sure, Steven Spielberg has had his fair share of bad or mediocre films but the truth of the situation is that his batting average is pretty good compared to some other directors. Coincidence? No. It's the professionalism he brings to the work.

And team sports? Why are you comparing the director to a mere player? If we're dealing with the director, it's more proper to compare it to the coach or manager of the team. As for that aspect, we've seen what a good coach can do for a team. Referencing basketball, sure, Phil Jackson is probably overrated and was out-coached by Doc Rivers this year but no one is going to deny that he has done a fabulous job managing his players and maximizing their production in the past. Red Auerbach? He shaped those Boston teams in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You think people like them don't guarantee anything?

Yep, I did and if you think about it, it was something innate to life. What happens when you're a small child and pick up your first comic? If it is black and white, bland, has bad drawings and massive amounts of text that make little sense and are weakly tied to visual content, your interest in it isn't going to outlast your curiosity and you're going to get bored and scuttle off to do something that's more entertaining.

Now, if it has a captivating story, beautiful drawings and amazing colors, interesting page formatting and charismatic characters, then it's a different story. Like what I've been saying with quality in anime, if the quality and effort is there, it's naturally easier to accept and thus I respect that basic effort.

Moozooh said:
What if that was the author's intent?

That's fine. If his goal is to create something that has unbearably bad production quality and he succeeds, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that it has unbearably bad production quality. It also doesn't mean I should magically respect or honor his work in any way.

Moozooh said:
It's just me, but I'm of the opinion that things like that, once detected and believed in, can't be hindered by a lacking presentation, unless it's presentation you want to see and not the story behind it. Because your words made it sound as if all the pioneering endeavours in the field of arts, be it literature, cinematography, drawn arts, performed arts, etc., were all failures from the start back when no sufficient production quality you're talking of was even technically achievable.

Unless it's the presentation we want to see and not the story behind it? I've said it once and I'll say it again. the presentation and exactly what we read as the story are intrinsically linked. Referencing what you said before...

moozooh said:
What if that was the author's intent? Or what if the "deep, touching, and great story" never existed in the first place, being just an illusion fueled by your frustration?

...if the presentation isn't there, even if there was a beautiful story behind it, it might just end as an illusion fueled by frustration.

And as for your reference of early, "primative" work, you realize that when looking at old works, we try to understand context and judge by a set of criteria reserved for that context? They weren't "failures from the start" because when they were originally created, they were working with the standards of days long past. Looking at Disney's early work, the way it used multiplane technicolor was at the forefront of production quality at that time. What was the result? It took the representation of an idea and a story to a different level. When sound was first introduced to film works, it added a totally different dimension to the representation of a story.

moozooh said:
The first cartoons were even worse than what you've just described, and believe me, no-one at the time complained about presentation. The fact that now the audience would likely endlessly complain about having an all-around great story encased in a presentation from the "before-technology" era just tells how spoiled it has become. Because when art turns into an industry, form prevails over matter, because it's easier to relate to by the audience, and thus easier to make profit off.

Of course no one at the time complained about the production. At the time, they lived by a different set of standards. If you were to present an audience today with a film animation from the 30s, and told the audience to judge it by today's standards without any biases or preconceived notions, it would be horribly received because it would be so far under status quo that its great story would not be fully absorbed by the audience. How does that mean we're spoiled? If everyone was just satisfied with the same old thing decade after decade, we'd be going no where fast. Why doesn't the entire human civilization go back to living in caves, farming, and catching wildlife? Damn, I guess we're all just a bunch of spoiled brats.

Technology develops. Film and animation develop with it. Computers have made things possible that no one could ever imagine 200 years ago and with new dreams comes new standards. You're saying that when art turns into an industry (and it is called the film industry), form prevails over matter. I'll just say that the arts have always been about either form follows function or function follows form and in the entirety of its existence, that has never changed.

If the function of something is to entertain, then the form will constantly and endlessly progress in an effort to pursue that function. If something's form was its utmost priority from the get-go, then even that will constantly develop and change as its creator evolves.

removed-userJun 22, 2008 11:59 PM

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premature rating = fail.

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