Master-slave morality

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deg said:
the masters hit their peak of might makes right and it goes tumbling down tumbling down (Evangelion) as each son successors of them replaces them for example

Zlyiond said:
The roles between Masters and Slaves constantly switch.

so then that saying about hard times making strong men would contradict this because you don't need morals for good times which makes weak men

Oct 11, 2020 2:15 PM

#5

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ProfessionalNEET said:
Why yes I read a Spark Notes summary on Nietzsche once, how could you tell?

bruh you're so right I'm tackling a treatise like it was a school essay LMAO but still I am wondering about this from a layman's pov

Oct 11, 2020 2:16 PM

#6

rohan121

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I think many people like to rationalize their own actions in a positive light. I would accept that theory as if you do not have much your morals would be different then those who have a lot. Reminds me of the housing crisis where many bad loans were made despite being aware of how much would default. Selling the collapsing loans to other companies while falsely reporting on their rating made for massive profits for some while others faced ruin.

Oct 11, 2020 2:17 PM

#7

deg

lagom

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Korishi said:

deg said:
the masters hit their peak of might makes right and it goes tumbling down tumbling down (Evangelion) as each son successors of them replaces them for example

Zlyiond said:
The roles between Masters and Slaves constantly switch.

so then that saying about hard times making strong men would contradict this because you don't need morals for good times which makes weak men

healthy level or good enough hard times is the key imo

as the saying goes what does not kill you makes you actually weaker due to latent PTSD for example triggering

this thread is about darwinism and will to power stuff

Oct 11, 2020 2:21 PM

#8

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Very nice, a Hegelian thread. Though, a misleading one.

First question: I do not think so, great masters of martial arts are very often the kindest persons.

The great men do not have to care about the current system of morality, as their actions will result in the creation of a new world or society with new moral standards. Their main goal is to accomplish their ambitions or ideals, and the moral judgment of the people of their actions should not matter to them. Criticizing them for being "immoral" or "passionate" is the morals of schoolmasters as Hegel would say.

Not sure what the third question means.

About art, all those religions and ideologies are indeed negations of life, that may either reject the body (Christianity) or reject of everything (nihilism), which is the intellectual death. However, art is life itself, life made finally clear, and conveys the idea of vital momentum, infinite possibilities of creation, of transcendence and oppose to all of these intellectual postures that make of the mind a piece of stone.

MeusnierOct 11, 2020 2:28 PM

Oct 11, 2020 2:24 PM

#9

rohan121

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ProfessionalNEET said:
Why yes I read a Spark Notes summary on Nietzsche once, how could you tell?

Zlyiond said:
The roles between Masters and Slaves constantly switch.

No they don't. Such a switch is, at most, very rare. People who are born on top usually stay on top, while those who are born on the bottom usually stay on the bottom.

Wealth one of those factors where it is easier to yield more as you have more. If you don`t have much you must go through credit and loans which waste a ton of money through interest. Besides that owning businesses allows you to maintain a high salary job while being poor often means less connections which makes things more difficult. College and medical school`s prices really gatekeep the poor out of many careers. Taking loans out often leads to debt that takes over a decade to pay back. I do not believe that much financial mobility exists though it is not impossible to become rich. It is a statistical anomaly.

Oct 11, 2020 2:25 PM

#10

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ProfessionalNEET said:

Zlyiond said:
The roles between Masters and Slaves constantly switch.

No they don't. Such a switch is, at most, very rare. People who are born on top usually stay on top, while those who are born on the bottom usually stay on the bottom.

They sure are rare. I've been looking everywhere for one: on the streets, at clubs, in mental hospitals. Everyone is so tied to their roles these days, it's so boring. I personally blame Kant for it.

Oct 11, 2020 2:37 PM

#11

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ProfessionalNEET said:

Korishi said:

bruh you're so right I'm tackling a treatise like it was a school essay LMAO but still I am wondering about this from a layman's pov

To be fair, I've never actually read any of Nietzsche's works myself, with most of my knowledge of his life and works coming from various summaries. However, I do know that a lot of his work has been misconstrued by people to fit their worldviews and political agendas. For example, Nazis tried to use his work to justify their ideology, but he explicitly condemned a lot of the things they promoted (nationalism, anti-Semitism, etc.). It seems to me that Nietzsche has become the edgelord's go-to philosopher.

Besides Ecce Homo that was butchered by her sister, his work was not susceptible of such misinterpretations. No idea why people still mention the Nazism bullshit interpretation of the Übermensch. Otherwise, I do not know who are these "people" you are referring to. True, you can also add socialism to the list.

"Edgelord"... @Korishi now you see why Nietzsche should not be mentioned here... Sigh.

Oct 11, 2020 2:45 PM

#12

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Meusnier said:
Very nice, a Hegelian thread. Though, a misleading one.

First question: I do not think so, great masters of martial arts are very often the kindest persons.

The great men do not have to care about the current system of morality, as their actions will result in the creation of a new world or society with new moral standards. Their main goal is to accomplish their ambitions or ideals, and the moral judgment of the people of their actions should not matter to them. Criticizing them for being "immoral" or "passionate" is the morals of schoolmasters as Hegel would say.

Not sure what the third question means.

About art, all those religions and ideologies are indeed negations of life, that may either reject the body (Christianity) or reject of everything (nihilism), which is the intellectual death. However, art is life itself, life made finally clear, and conveys the idea of vital momentum, infinite possibilities of creation, of transcendence and oppose to all of these intellectual postures that make of the mind a piece of stone.

yeah I can see that traditionalism can have detrimental effects on great men, especially in the schoolmaster situation (watch or read Dead Poets Society).

in the third question I just mean to allude to the fact that the more sought after codified moral systems seem to carry civilization further.

yeah the last point about art is true, even for me as a Protestant Christian.
I still try to appreciate all art but some times it does tempt me away from my values (were they mine at all to begin with then?), which can effect my core beliefs too through a butterfly type of effect. in the end I use art as a means to reflect on myself and my value tables.

and yeah about Nazi stuff it was his sister indeed. Jesus was an Ubermensch so Jesus was a Nazi too? LMAO

Oct 11, 2020 2:49 PM

#13

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It comes down to what makes a person feel better about him/herself, morally/emotionally. Sometimes just going by inner-law is not enough to actually activate 'good feelings' within a person. Logic, rationality, sensibility, etc. does not really do much for how a person "feels" in a positive sense. Being naturally Empathetic would make a person feel good about him/herself from an emotional level, which is far better than just having a code of conduct based on inner-laws.

Oct 11, 2020 2:51 PM

#14

cody

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nah it's not so much a moral thing as an inherited wealth/environmental thing

Oct 11, 2020 2:58 PM

#15

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Kosmonaut said:

ProfessionalNEET said:

No they don't. Such a switch is, at most, very rare. People who are born on top usually stay on top, while those who are born on the bottom usually stay on the bottom.

They sure are rare. I've been looking everywhere for one: on the streets, at clubs, in mental hospitals. Everyone is so tied to their roles these days, it's so boring. I personally blame Kant for it.

can confirm I'm a switch. took the msdb tset more than once.

ProfessionalNEET said:
Now to answer the OP:

is it true that only weaker people value meekness in morals like kindness, empathy, and sympathy... ?

What exactly do you mean by "weaker people"?

then the most "exceptional" people don't need to make use of morality but rather "inner law" or value tables that aren't contradictory to his ambitions?

What exactly you mean by "exceptional" people?

I can accept that for arguments sake, but if morality is inseparable from the culture which values it, then where are those strong willed races like Vikings, 'Aryans', etc?

I'm somewhat confused here. Are you trying to say this:
If morality is inseparable from the culture which values it, then there are strong willed races like Vikings, 'Aryans', etc. There are no strong willed races like Vikings, 'Aryans', etc. Therefore, morality is not inseparable from the culture which values it.

1. people who have hardships and endure them (this is not my concept, as Jesus did suffer but was considered an Ubermensch by the same conceptualizer)

2. people who have resisted the status quo in history and make huge changes to society as we know it in our textbooks.

3. I definitely did not phrase that correctly. I'm even forgetting what I meant in the first place. I think it's again based on the Ubermensch concept of cultures that made their own moral system to become conquerors, yet they disappeared off the face of the earth...?
i mean to point to how core morals have survived, and just been reformed in their codes. that may support a 'natural morality' once more.

Oct 11, 2020 3:12 PM

#16

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Jun 2019

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Korishi said:

Meusnier said:
Very nice, a Hegelian thread. Though, a misleading one.

First question: I do not think so, great masters of martial arts are very often the kindest persons.

The great men do not have to care about the current system of morality, as their actions will result in the creation of a new world or society with new moral standards. Their main goal is to accomplish their ambitions or ideals, and the moral judgment of the people of their actions should not matter to them. Criticizing them for being "immoral" or "passionate" is the morals of schoolmasters as Hegel would say.

Not sure what the third question means.

About art, all those religions and ideologies are indeed negations of life, that may either reject the body (Christianity) or reject of everything (nihilism), which is the intellectual death. However, art is life itself, life made finally clear, and conveys the idea of vital momentum, infinite possibilities of creation, of transcendence and oppose to all of these intellectual postures that make of the mind a piece of stone.

yeah I can see that traditionalism can have detrimental effects on great men, especially in the schoolmaster situation (watch or read Dead Poets Society).

in the third question I just mean to allude to the fact that the more sought after codified moral systems seem to carry civilization further.

yeah the last point about art is true, even for me as a Protestant Christian.
I still try to appreciate all art but some times it does tempt me away from my values (were they mine at all to begin with then?), which can effect my core beliefs too through a butterfly type of effect. in the end I use art as a means to reflect on myself and my value tables.

and yeah about Nazi stuff it was his sister indeed. Jesus was an Ubermensch so Jesus was a Nazi too? LMAO

Thank you for the explanation, I still find it a bit obscure and will not comment further about that. The Romans had a cofified moral systems and their civilisation collapsed.

This is quite interesting that you have such an experience, as I think thats art tend to make people reflect more on morals, and as a side-effect, make them better. For example, one can interpret Sade's The Misfortunes of the Virtue as a moral tale, just as Casanova's memoirs will probably do not push the reader to behave as the impetuous Veneziano did. His slow fall into the abyss, starting by being unfaithful, then inconstant, and finally libertine is certainly more instructive than any preachy lesson. I do not think that any of the books I read so far could make me more immoral than I was, even those destined to the Enfer of libraries. Of course, I am not thinking about mediocre works.

"Mme. Picard was of the opinion that a child can read everything: "A book never does any harm if it's well written." I had once asked permission, in her presence, to read Madame Bovary, and my mother had turned on her too musical voice: "But if my little darling reads books of that kind at his age, what will he do when he grows up?"— I'll live them!" This reply had had a definite and permanent success. Every time Mme. Picard visited us, she alluded to it, and my mother would exclaim in a flattered tone: "Blanche! Do be quiet, you're going to spoil him!" Sartre, The Words.

Yes indeed, that seems quite laughable.

ProfessionalNEET said:

Meusnier said:
"Edgelord"... @Korishi now you see why Nietzsche should not be mentioned here... Sigh.

What do you mean? Is Nietzsche not the philosopher you hear edgelords talk about the most? I'm not saying his ideas were bad, it's just that, from my experience, he seems to most edgelords' favorite philosopher.

I would not even know what edgelord means in this context, are you thinking about MAL? Because I never met people in real life who tried speaking about him without having read him. However, I saw more than once people having misconceptions about him, both in real life and here, saying that he was "edgy"... Maybe blasé and anxious teens who say that there is no good and evil. Most likely, those mentioning him did not read him but make huge misinterpretations about his ideas.

Oct 11, 2020 3:41 PM

#17

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Korishi said:

Kosmonaut said:

They sure are rare. I've been looking everywhere for one: on the streets, at clubs, in mental hospitals. Everyone is so tied to their roles these days, it's so boring. I personally blame Kant for it.

can confirm I'm a switch. took the msdb tset more than once.

Don't you dare talk dirty programming lingo with me, I'm a pure humanities boy and I refuse to be tainted by sin.

Oct 11, 2020 3:46 PM

#18

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ProfessionalNEET said:

Korishi said:
1. people who have hardships and endure them (this is not my concept, as Jesus did suffer but was considered an Ubermensch by the same conceptualizer)

2. people who have resisted the status quo in history and make huge changes to society as we know it in our textbooks.

3. I definitely did not phrase that correctly. I'm even forgetting what I meant in the first place. I think it's again based on the Ubermensch concept of cultures that made their own moral system to become conquerors, yet they disappeared off the face of the earth...?
i mean to point to how core morals have survived, and just been reformed in their codes. that may support a 'natural morality' once more.

So let me get this straight. Does "weaker people" refer to people who have hardships and just live with them, while "exceptional people" refers to people who have hardships and seek to overcome them?

think in terms of master and slave like the title. The essence of master morality is nobility. so people who will seek change instead of learning to live with certain hardships I think can be the opposite of weak in this case. further summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality

Meusnier said:

Korishi said:

yeah I can see that traditionalism can have detrimental effects on great men, especially in the schoolmaster situation (watch or read Dead Poets Society).

in the third question I just mean to allude to the fact that the more sought after codified moral systems seem to carry civilization further.

yeah the last point about art is true, even for me as a Protestant Christian.
I still try to appreciate all art but some times it does tempt me away from my values (were they mine at all to begin with then?), which can effect my core beliefs too through a butterfly type of effect. in the end I use art as a means to reflect on myself and my value tables.

and yeah about Nazi stuff it was his sister indeed. Jesus was an Ubermensch so Jesus was a Nazi too? LMAO

Thank you for the explanation, I still find it a bit obscure and will not comment further about that. The Romans had a cofified moral systems and their civilisation collapsed.

This is quite interesting that you have such an experience, as I think thats art tend to make people reflect more on morals, and as a side-effect, make them better. For example, one can interpret Sade's The Misfortunes of the Virtue as a moral tale, just as Casanova's memoirs will probably do not push the reader to behave as the impetuous Veneziano did. His slow fall into the abyss, starting by being unfaithful, then inconstant, and finally libertine is certainly more instructive than any preachy lesson. I do not think that any of the books I read so far could make me more immoral than I was, even those destined to the Enfer of libraries. Of course, I am not thinking about mediocre works.

"Mme. Picard was of the opinion that a child can read everything: "A book never does any harm if it's well written." I had once asked permission, in her presence, to read Madame Bovary, and my mother had turned on her too musical voice: "But if my little darling reads books of that kind at his age, what will he do when he grows up?"— I'll live them!" This reply had had a definite and permanent success. Every time Mme. Picard visited us, she alluded to it, and my mother would exclaim in a flattered tone: "Blanche! Do be quiet, you're going to spoil him!" Sartre, The Words.

Yes indeed, that seems quite laughable.

the Roman empire may have collapsed as we knew it, but it's legacy lives on. We have the Roman Catholics for example.

I was exposed to lots of popular culture and still am, but the temptations usually surround sexual themes and rebellion towards authority figures.
Its good to think for yourself, but it's better to read the Bible first.

as for your exchange with Mr NEET, it is true that Nietzsche has influenced many fictional works, like the popular Berserk, so it his original work can easily be misconstrued

Kosmonaut said:

Korishi said:

can confirm I'm a switch. took the msdb tset more than once.

Don't you dare talk dirty programming lingo with me, I'm a pure humanities boy and I refuse to be tainted by sin.

did you know that Facebook actively searches for keywords, even in private messages? I would not be surprised if that software is employed here. I do not want my threads locked so just hold a mirror to your monitor you chump

removed-userOct 11, 2020 3:56 PM

Oct 11, 2020 4:11 PM

#19

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Korishi said:

ProfessionalNEET said:

So let me get this straight. Does "weaker people" refer to people who have hardships and just live with them, while "exceptional people" refers to people who have hardships and seek to overcome them?

think in terms of master and slave like the title. The essence of master morality is nobility. so people who will seek change instead of learning to live with certain hardships I think can be the opposite of weak in this case. further summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality

People can change away from difficult times while still being compassionate and kind to others. Why would these cancel each other out?

Oct 11, 2020 5:08 PM

#20

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Korishi said:

Kosmonaut said:

Don't you dare talk dirty programming lingo with me, I'm a pure humanities boy and I refuse to be tainted by sin.

did you know that Facebook actively searches for keywords, even in private messages? I would not be surprised if that software is employed here. I do not want my threads locked so just hold a mirror to your monitor you chump

But what if being punished by algorithms is my kink? This surely is overcoming hardships instead of just living with them, coming full circle to the thread and making me a Master by deductive reasoning.

Oct 12, 2020 12:19 AM

#21

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Jun 2019

6748

Korishi said:

Meusnier said:

Thank you for the explanation, I still find it a bit obscure and will not comment further about that. The Romans had a cofified moral systems and their civilisation collapsed.

This is quite interesting that you have such an experience, as I think thats art tend to make people reflect more on morals, and as a side-effect, make them better. For example, one can interpret Sade's The Misfortunes of the Virtue as a moral tale, just as Casanova's memoirs will probably do not push the reader to behave as the impetuous Veneziano did. His slow fall into the abyss, starting by being unfaithful, then inconstant, and finally libertine is certainly more instructive than any preachy lesson. I do not think that any of the books I read so far could make me more immoral than I was, even those destined to the Enfer of libraries. Of course, I am not thinking about mediocre works.

"Mme. Picard was of the opinion that a child can read everything: "A book never does any harm if it's well written." I had once asked permission, in her presence, to read Madame Bovary, and my mother had turned on her too musical voice: "But if my little darling reads books of that kind at his age, what will he do when he grows up?"— I'll live them!" This reply had had a definite and permanent success. Every time Mme. Picard visited us, she alluded to it, and my mother would exclaim in a flattered tone: "Blanche! Do be quiet, you're going to spoil him!" Sartre, The Words.

Yes indeed, that seems quite laughable.

the Roman empire may have collapsed as we knew it, but it's legacy lives on. We have the Roman Catholics for example.

I was exposed to lots of popular culture and still am, but the temptations usually surround sexual themes and rebellion towards authority figures.
Its good to think for yourself, but it's better to read the Bible first.

as for your exchange with Mr NEET, it is true that Nietzsche has influenced many fictional works, like the popular Berserk, so it his original work can easily be misconstrued

Indeed, their cultural legacy remains.

Rebellion against authority is really fine, merely learning about it will not make of you an anarchist in favour of violent actions. I will not argue further on this point, but I do not believe that reading the Bible is any prerequisite to life a moral life. To each their ways.

Interesting, I had not idea that Berserk had been influenced by Nietzsche nor can I exactly see where.

Oct 12, 2020 3:36 AM

#22

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ProfessionalNEET said:

Korishi said:

think in terms of master and slave like the title. The essence of master morality is nobility. so people who will seek change instead of learning to live with certain hardships I think can be the opposite of weak in this case. further summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality

Hmm, your understanding of master-slave morality is a bit different from my understanding, or what the Wikipedia article seems to say.

...

The way I see it is that "master morality" is the morality of the powerful, while "slave morality" is the morality of the powerless. A slave owner can beat their slave without fearing negative consequences, but the the slave will almost certain experience pretty severe negative consequences if they try to beat their master. The powerful can get away with a lot more, so it is not as necessary for them to be nice or fair or humble or whatever. I also see morality as being a by-product of how a particular society is structured. An individual can decide to come up with their own moral code and ignore that of broader society, but broader society will likely inflict negative consequences on that individual if he/she steps out of line. For example, someone can decide that murder is perfectly moral, but if they go out and commit murder, it is still quite likely that they will face negative consequences for it if he/she gets caught. Morality also seems to be disproportionately shaped by the powerful, as it often seems to demand more respect towards the powerful than towards the powerless.

hm it seems I was just further separating 'stronger' and 'weaker' people within the slave mindset.

but I think you got it right where master morality sees shame or disgust where slave morality sees evil or malevolence.

the 'exceptional' people would discard a 'morality-for-all' and form their own non-contradictory value tables that assist them in going against the status quo and not simply seeing opportunity like you described in the middle section.

there can be stronger people with the slave mindset, but they still value meekness and this can have implications for people who look up to them and cannot emulate the same resistance to negative thoughts and feelings.

as far as I'm concerned, it's all a big mixed bag but, then again, that's probably what a 'slave' would say. welp just try to be like Jesus or Buddha instead of simply accepting their teachings to resist this master-slave stuff I guess.

Kosmonaut said:

Korishi said:

did you know that Facebook actively searches for keywords, even in private messages? I would not be surprised if that software is employed here. I do not want my threads locked so just hold a mirror to your monitor you chump

But what if being punished by algorithms is my kink? This surely is overcoming hardships instead of just living with them, coming full circle to the thread and making me a Master by deductive reasoning.

you're only a master if you stop thinking like a slave. I (tried) to clear this up above, but it seems like you'll stay a slave to your own desires for eternity you disgusting little whore.

Meusnier said:

Interesting, I had not idea that Berserk had been influenced by Nietzsche nor can I exactly see where.

some material to gloss over:
https://myanimelist.net/featured/1857/How_Berserk_is_Influenced_by_Nietzsche
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nietzsche/comments/f5w2x8/comment/fi1kew5
https://jarinjove.com/2019/02/24/nietzsche-in-culture/
https://allthetropes.fandom.com/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Anime_and_Manga
https://myanimelist.net/manga/67247/Nietzsche-sensei__Conveni_ni_Satori_Sedai_no_Shinjin_ga_Maiorita
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2019/08/03/books/japans-modern-literature-came-nietzsches-spell/
https://myanimelist.net/people/35373/Friedrich_Wilhelm_Nietzsche (check the comments haha)

Oct 12, 2020 1:55 PM

#23

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Jun 2019

6748

Korishi said:

Meusnier said:

Interesting, I had not idea that Berserk had been influenced by Nietzsche nor can I exactly see where.

some material to gloss over:
https://myanimelist.net/featured/1857/How_Berserk_is_Influenced_by_Nietzsche
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nietzsche/comments/f5w2x8/comment/fi1kew5
https://jarinjove.com/2019/02/24/nietzsche-in-culture/
https://allthetropes.fandom.com/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Anime_and_Manga
https://myanimelist.net/manga/67247/Nietzsche-sensei__Conveni_ni_Satori_Sedai_no_Shinjin_ga_Maiorita
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2019/08/03/books/japans-modern-literature-came-nietzsches-spell/
https://myanimelist.net/people/35373/Friedrich_Wilhelm_Nietzsche (check the comments haha)

Thanks a lot for the links. Honestly, I think that many heroes could be seen as Nietzschean: Lelouch, Makishima, Aizen, etc.

Oct 12, 2020 2:03 PM

#24