| Battle shonen is probably not the best place to look for deep characters |
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| Yeah, he isn't a good character, but he fills the rol of being the MC without ruining the show. Besides, DB never was about character development nor deep plot, it's about beating the shit to each other and I love it because of that. Also, the side characters actually had a decent amount of development. And last, not every show needs to be deep, sometimes one just wanna enjoy something simple. |
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| Who could possibly care? Really. I REALLY mean WHO...WHO the fuck could possibly care? WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!?!?!?!?! |
| This is as cold a take as you can make. Everyone already knows that Goku, outside of his entertainment value as a fighter, sucks as a character. Even the hugely popular TFS Abridged series acknowledges that Vegeta is more interesting and layered than he is, while Piccolo was a better father to Gohan than Goku ever was. |
| He was never meant to be a very complex character for specialized anime analysts to make character study of him in the first place....lmao |
Stygian_Prisoner said: while Piccolo was a better father to Gohan than Goku ever was. Oh come on. That's bullshit. Piccolo trained Gohan for one year. That's like the whole raising of a child isn't it? D'yu see how bullshitty this is? |
| I’ll just post this and save myself the time. |
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MySweetLucifer said: Stygian_Prisoner said: while Piccolo was a better father to Gohan than Goku ever was. Oh come on. That's bullshit. Piccolo trained Gohan for one year. That's like the whole raising of a child isn't it? D'yu see how bullshitty this is? I don´t think it´s about that,it´s more about Piccolo understanding Gohan better.He knew he didn´t like fighting and even acknowledged it when that infamous scene of goku giving cell a senzu happened. |
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| I think you may be over analyzing things. Like others have said, Goku is simply there to fulfill the role of the mc, which he does just fine. He's just interesting enough to keep fans from getting completely bored which is all he really needs to be in a series like Dragon Ball. The only real nitpick I have with him is that the guys a pretty crappy father. |
Missaliensan said: I don´t think it´s about that,it´s more about Piccolo understanding Gohan better.He knew he didn´t like fighting and even acknowledged it when that infamous scene of goku giving cell a senzu happened. I personally always thought Piccolo and Gohan have more a teacher/student relationship than a father/son relationship. |
| Thank you for the thought provoking hot take Mr bot |
| He's a great battle shounen MC imo. He's not complex or deep, but he's straight-up fun and works well as a driving force because of how much he likes to fight ûnder all circumstances. He's all the MC Dragon Ball needs tbh. He's the perfect fit for the show he's from. DB in general is not really a franchise that needs complex characters and he's the perfect example of that. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| This is why I think dragon ball wouldn't be successful if it came out today, where there's so much more competition, that shounen protags like deku and Asta are being called left and right for not being good enough, even tho they are still more interesting characters than Goku, and get much more development. Its kinda like how if SAO came out today, people would just call it another B tier isekai to add to the growing pile (not regarding the fact that it spawned 90% of isekai, of course) The more of an alternative we have for something, the higher our standards are for it to hold up, dbz just came in a time when there wasn't any, eapecially for the west Also to add to that, his character is just mindless fun cause while not being deep, he still doesn't do anything to make people dislike him, and even of you're still not satisfied, as I said before, theres a whole lot more alternative for shounens that are usually much better, like hunter x hunter or jojo for example |
yotiMar 1, 2020 1:33 PM
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| Goku became my favorite character after I was finally able to see the whole series. Vegeta is interesting too, so not going to a compare/contrast. I really don't get the Goku hate other than people wanting to be competitive and say ___ from the same or another series is better. Or maybe that they want someone more edgy as their main. Not ITT but also I've heard it said before he's "too perfect", um, no? Yes he wasn't that great, though also not that terrible a dad, and could also be pretty selfish at times. Like when he didn't kill Vegeta because he wanted to fight Vegeta again and when he didn't want to come back to life because fighting in the afterlife was so fun. He probably also should not have married Chichi just because he made a promise he didn't understand, lol, but some people will see following through as a good thing. Though Goku doesn't undergo a dramatic change during the story, he does mature some. I think DB does really well to have a main character who seems overall a good person but still has flaws. I haven't watched much of Super but I do think how GT tried to backtrack some of that maturation for the sake of funny I guess was annoying, and probably one of the main reasons the series suffered. Maybe Super is the same, but yeah, I haven't seen it to judge. Too bad if so. Video @ArabianLuffy posted is interesting. |
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| No arguments here; he is my LEAST favorite shounen protagonist...honestly never liked him at all. Easy to make fun of though; the Abridged DBZ series is great at that. xD |
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| It's a shounen aimed for teenagers ,don't expect hamlet or macbeth here,yes goku was a shitty character and picollo and vegeta were much more interesting and had better character arcs. |
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YuusakuFujiki said: You are looking at him through a modern time lens. Same reason people nowadays hate Jonathan from part 1 of Jojo. The characters themselves are good for what they are, times have just changed. Eh Kenshiro is older than both of them and shows more character depth, though with Johnathan that's not really his fault since PB was only 9 episodes, meanwhile Goku has had hundreds of episodes to be fleshed out more. It's really a shame Goku has always been put up on a pedestal by casual anime viewers despite not only there being far better battle shonen mc's, he's not even close to be the best written DB character. Mod Edit: Double Post merged |
Fleeting_DreamMar 3, 2020 1:42 PM
What a beautiful Duwang |
| Goku is meant to be bland and generic... he's kinda the originator of the shonen protagonist archetype. Dumb, hungry, hyper energetic boys that like to fight. DBSuper is a regression in overall story telling, so i understand your issue.... But goku is meant to be the guy everyone else bounces off of or seems more intense next to. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| He's a shit character because you don't like him. |
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| I'll use this thread to say that sean schemmel is a garbage voice actor and by far the worst goku I've ever heard and I don't get why there are people who suck his dick all the time |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
Wow that's a really unpopular opinion..  |
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| And you needed to create a fake account to make this dumb as post ? It's not like shonen shows has some great character development either. |
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Staying bland during the whole of Dragon Ball is not development under the pretext he's the one changing others. You can say he is a foil to other characters to grow but he stays 1 dimensional. Also vegeta kept believing the same "lie", wanting to become stronger than Goku. You're not saving yourself anytime just posting a video and not argue on this thread that was purposely made to discuss if Goku is a good character or not. |
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| I mean just referencing the Buu saga since it was brought up, one of the main reasons I can see as to why that arc is controversial is it completely pulls the rug out from under Gohan. Like they spent the whole Cell Saga building him up as the new defender of the Earth, the strongest man alive and then Buu Saga came in and said "nah we'll just bring Goku back and give him a new buffed form". Granted I loved that arc when I was younger and thought the fusion aspect was great so I didn't mind Goku being brought back just for that. Vegeta though inherently wouldn't work well as the main character. His drive has almost always been more for power or based on pride and they never really brought his family as a major motivator until like the Buu saga (which as a saga arguably feels tacked on and most of his relationship progression occurred between time skips so his familial motivation often felt hollow). But I would argue your take on his actions in Super is a bit off for a couple reasons (granted you were quite vague). It's no surprise his primary motivator was fighting strong opponents, like that's been one of the most consistent things about his character for the whole franchise. The other part gets into more how it ended so I'll just tag it as a spoiler The power ceiling has been jank from the moment power levels were introduced. |
GamerDLMMar 2, 2020 12:00 PM
| NO SHIT SHERLOCK. Wow you are so smart, nobody ever had a clue before you, that's the damn Revelation |
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Nefelupitou said: Not every character gotta have a development Dragon Ball is a simple story, with simple characters, it's harmless, just for fun. And I think of Goku more like a symbol, he's kindness and pureness itself, not a "human" I like more honest stories like Dragon Ball, with shallow characters than "pseudo-complex" stories where they try to develop their plot and characters, but they fail like Naruto. Ikr,I actually appreciate Dragon ball´s simplicity.It doesn´t take itself too seriously like 2edgy4u anime that fall flat on their face that just end up becoming laughingstock for people watching it.At least Dragon ball is respected to some degree as a classic. |
SummerynMar 2, 2020 12:03 PM
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BiDiGiN said: are you sure goku stayed bland for the whole series, he's had ups and downs with his attitudes about life. goku murders hundreds of red ribbon soldiers as a child, begins to look negatively towards death after bora dies, and chooses to let piccolo live for a greater cause at the end of dragon ball. z completes that transition by showing him frieza, with the lesson being that there are still those that should be killed for the greater cause. Staying bland during the whole of Dragon Ball is not development under the pretext he's the one changing others. You can say he is a foil to other characters to grow but he stays 1 dimensional. Also vegeta kept believing the same "lie", wanting to become stronger than Goku. You're not saving yourself anytime just posting a video and not argue on this thread that was purposely made to discuss if Goku is a good character or not. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| @Aure0lin It never was relevant wether he killed or spared his ennemies. Goku only thought of his friend's life as important and when they died he never got anything out of it, he just said "oh maybe I can ressurect them with the Dragon Balls". No weight is given when he kills or spares an enemy, Piccolo did stay with them and that is how Piccolo was affected, but Goku did not change. He does get mad at some moments, but it is kind of weird considering he sometimes just goes back to normal, Frieza's showdown is probably the best example of this. Goku never contemplated the value of life and the greater good, he just killed some and didn't kill others. There may be a certain causality, for example he killed Frieza because he was really angry at Goku for beating him and persisted while he didn't kill Piccolo because he felt defeated and was basically submitted to Goku. Keep in mind I have not seen the TV series, and only read the OG manga. |
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BiDiGiN said: you mean like the first two times krillin died. i don't think goku actually went into that mindset until the namekian dragon balls were getting used. @Aure0lin It never was relevant wether he killed or spared his ennemies. Goku only thought of his friend's life as important and when they died he never got anything out of it, he just said "oh maybe I can ressurect them with the Dragon Balls". No weight is given when he kills or spares an enemy, Piccolo did stay with them and that is how Piccolo was affected, but Goku did not change. He does get mad at some moments, but it is kind of weird considering he sometimes just goes back to normal, Frieza's showdown is probably the best example of this. Goku never contemplated the value of life and the greater good, he just killed some and didn't kill others. There may be a certain causality, for example he killed Frieza because he was really angry at Goku for beating him and persisted while he didn't kill Piccolo because he felt defeated and was basically submitted to Goku. Keep in mind I have not seen the TV series, and only read the OG manga. goku also had a very clear phase of killing nobody in between phases where he was okay with killing. he started out not caring about who he killed at first, calmed down with kami's influence, and went to a middle ground after meeting frieza. goku doesn't need introspection for you to notice his thoughts lol. his battles involve split second scenarios where contemplation gets you killed. you can see from his actions where even after frieza did so much evil and after having gained the rage to become a super saiyan, goku still felt guilty when he thought he killed frieza.  i think it's funny that you say you only read the manga yet completely forget the impactful moments |
Aure0linMar 2, 2020 5:40 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| He never has good character development or deep character but Dragon Ball is one of the first few anime we all watch as a kid/teenagers,we never care about character depth. |
| It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. |
| @Aure0lin I haven't forgotten, what I mean by contemplating is he did not want to kill even though he did kill some during the Red Ribbon arc and no focus was given on any moral choice of killing or not. It is true he shouldn't be given the time to think during fights but he never had any afterthoughts about the deaths, things got back to normal really quickly after Frieza's death (literally seconds after his death when he was talking to future Trunks). And that image is from when Namek was going to explode, Goku stated back on Earth that he knows that Frieza is still alive and that he is coming to try to beat him. You interpreted that face as guilt, but I'd say it is more contempt or dissapoitment towards the fact he knows Frieza is going to pursue him. It'd be hard to emphase on a moral struggle only by some panel's art in my opinion. |
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BiDiGiN said: keep in mind that this is when he was a kid and still didn't think much about life and death@Aure0lin I haven't forgotten, what I mean by contemplating is he did not want to kill even though he did kill some during the Red Ribbon arc and no focus was given on any moral choice of killing or not. BiDiGiN said: (literally seconds after his death when he was talking to future Trunks). are you sure it was seconds because i remember reading that this happens several months after the namek arc. if you mean goku being okay with frieza finally dying, that's because he learned his lesson from his first meeting with frieza And that image is from when Namek was going to explode, Goku stated back on Earth that he knows that Frieza is still alive and that he is coming to try to beat him. You interpreted that face as guilt, but I'd say it is more contempt or dissapoitment towards the fact he knows Frieza is going to pursue him. goku never said that, only that frieza tracked his ship and goku should've finished him for good. where are you getting the idea that goku thought frieza was still alive on namek.It'd be hard to emphase on a moral struggle only by some panel's art in my opinion. you're right, we only had maybe a hundred chapters to figure out that goku might've developed a negative view towards killing. the look on goku's face is definitely disappointment that frieza's coming back even though he was engulfed by a shitton of energy into a deep hole on a planet that was going to explode. |
Aure0linMar 2, 2020 5:56 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| @Aure0lin Yes, the rest of the cast literally did not care about Frieza and only asked Goku who was that weird Sayan that killed Frieza and why did they talk. Frieza did came back months later though. They just time-skipped to his appearance saying that Goku and his friends rested and prepared for his appearance and again it was not mentioned that they'd have to kill him for the greater good or something like that, no thought about this struggle was given. Only when arrived to earth? I'm not sure, but he said that he felt Frieza's energy and had to go back to eart to prepare for the next confrontation. That's the thing, wether the enemy is dead or not never mattered. Only his friend's life mattered. You are giving him thoughts he never had, Goku wasn't written to have any moral struggle and to me it feels like Goku spared Piccolo and Vegeta just to keep them in the story because of their future relevance. Also this negative view of killing didn't stop him from killing the 7 aliens commander under Frieza. I'm not sure if this is sarcasm. Keep in mind that on that panel he was maybe sad because of Krillin's death, a lot of interpretations can be made and I do not think that he feels guilty for killing Frieza as the manga never pushed the theme and Goku never contemplated the question. |
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BiDiGiN said: the rest of the cast don't have that no kill rule that goku had. even kami was surprised by goku's insistence to keep piccolo alive. i'm not trying to say that the manga has a theme about the value of life. i'm saying that goku's attitudes towards life has evolved as part of his character.@Aure0lin Yes, the rest of the cast literally did not care about Frieza and only asked Goku who was that weird Sayan that killed Frieza and why did they talk. Frieza did came back months later though. They just time-skipped to his appearance saying that Goku and his friends rested and prepared for his appearance and again it was not mentioned that they'd have to kill him for the greater good or something like that, no thought about this struggle was given. Only when arrived to earth? I'm not sure, but he said that he felt Frieza's energy and had to go back to eart to prepare for the next confrontation. That's the thing, wether the enemy is dead or not never mattered. Only his friend's life mattered. You are giving him thoughts he never had, Goku wasn't written to have any moral struggle and to me it feels like Goku spared Piccolo and Vegeta just to keep them in the story because of their future relevance. Also this negative view of killing didn't stop him from killing the 7 aliens commander under Frieza. I'm not sure if this is sarcasm. Keep in mind that on that panel he was maybe sad because of Krillin's death, a lot of interpretations can be made and I do not think that he feels guilty for killing Frieza as the manga never pushed the theme and Goku never contemplated the question. just because they don't shove it into your face doesn't mean the conflict wasn't there. goku developed a rule against killing when he became an adult. he clearly took it seriously by giving piccolo, nappa, vegeta, ginyu, and frieza a chance to live. that rule was broken when he saw what kind of being frieza was. goku showed clear remorse in breaking that rule. he got over it by the time trunks arrived. also when i meant the greater good, i meant the lives of goku's friends in contrast to his desire to fight. you said it yourself that dragon ball is meant to be simple, i'm not sure why you think i meant some grand moral imperative when i mentioned "greater good" in the context of goku's motivations. i'm aware that toriyama makes shit up as he writes but it's pretty obvious what he was going for when writing the namek arc. the pieces just fell into place in the same way that vegeta's or piccolo's arcs did. goku also didn't kill a single one of frieza's minions. vegeta killed the ginyu force and pretty much all of frieza's soldiers on namek. goku even convinced vegeta to let ginyu live. i doubt that goku felt sad about krillin when he thought he killed frieza since that directly contrasts how goku was acting triumphantly when king piccolo died. maybe it's a sign that he's grown since then, but that's an interpretation of character growth that you're saying goku doesn't have. i'm also not of the opinion that a manga should spoonfeed you themes |
Aure0linMar 2, 2020 7:55 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
......................................................................................... |
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| @Aure0lin There never was any no-kill rule established for anybody. When he became an adult, he started developping a rule against it? Like during the timeskip between King Piccolo's death epilogue and the Tournament in which Piccolo Jr. would participate? Like I said before Goku changes mood weirdly, he maybe felt remorse after hitting Frieza and seeing the planet is going to explode but that moment was very short lived. He got over it in months, but for us it was just some pages. If giving remorse to Goku was the intention of Akira Toriyama, it wasn't very well written. Especially considering Goku went back to his lighthearted-self right after it. Piccolo's and Vegeta arc are a better made simply considering the fact real change happens. You could say Goku before had the same mentality, but no enemy was evil enough for him to have to kill them. He did kill people during Red Ribbon but again no emphase was given to it proving that he never had to think about a no killing rule. Mentioning a struggle and giving importance to it through dialogue or thoughts during fight is not spoonfeeding themes, instead look at basing development on different actions that occur for reasons that aren't mentionned, seems to me like overthinking. There definitively are a lot of valid points in what you say, but I still think it is more out of convenience for the author. |
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