| Couldn't finish watching all of it myself, this guy makes too many arguments I can't care about and I'm unable to comprehend what the issues are. A lot of it has to do with 19th and 20th century racism. It comes down to seeing Sister Krone as the potrayal of black women, but she's an individual character in a fantasy/sci-fi world. She possesses some of the ''hurtful'' stereotypes black women suppossedly have to deal with I guess, but how is that any different from literally all other racial stereotypes that exist and are commonly used. I really believe you need to have the perspective of finding things like this problematic otherwise there's not much to find issue with. There's not even anything wrong with her design imo I like how this guy says you can easily discard some common arguments I personally agree with but comes up with stuff like ''she treats a small doll like her child, I don't think I need to go into the racist imagery of it all''. A lot of people seem to agree, you can probably make up your mind after 4 minutes of listening to this guy's voice so I wonder what all of you think about ''racism'' in this case and also anime in general |
EsquirtitAug 12, 2019 1:00 AM
| poop |
| 30 seconds into the video; 'But it's OBJECTIVELY true' Yeah, pass. Also, Japan is way leas sensitive about this kind of stuff, so I don't pay too much aattention to racial commentary in anime. |
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| I don't wanna make views for some random guy on yt. Should I remind you this is fiction? |
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Catalano said: I don't wanna make views for some random guy on yt. Should I remind you this is fiction? Coming from the guy who has Nazi propoganda in his favourites lol NickRedMachine said: 30 seconds into the video; 'But it's OBJECTIVELY true' Yeah, pass. Also, Japan is way leas sensitive about this kind of stuff, so I don't pay too much aattention to racial commentary in anime. I would say the majority of people in general are less sensitive about this kind of stuff. I don't pay attention to it either, I want to know if other people are capable of understanding this unimportant criticism and to what extend can agree with it. I myself don't care and will never do so |
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| Dude, what nazi propaganda? Calm down. I just don't like when people over exagerrate when talking about anime, the author made her that way and that's it, it's not like he wrote her that way to anger black americans, there are some stereotypes but we shouldn't be over sensible and that manga is dark so maybe it makes a nice adition. |
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| I feel like I actually need to watch Promised Neverland before making a judgement, but I usually find myself agreeing with Zeria, even if I do find her videos a bit dry sometimes. I know it's really early in the morning, but I kinda want to get the Apple Sourz out of the cupboard and play shots for whenever someone says sjw from this point on. I have a feeling I'd end up very drunk. |
| I clicked off as soon as I heard "objectively". There have been plenty of great black or dark skinned anime characters, Dutch from Black Lagoon and Blue from Wolf's Rain come to mind. |
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| There are much worse depictions of black characters out there than Sister Krone...... |
| @Setsuei I only know about that DBZ guy but he's not even human anyway. I haven't come across any other bad depictions. I still don't understand what's so bad about Sister Krone though. It's just a really good design for a villain and her character in the end becomes individualistic with more backstory, characterization and not some bad monster employed by the authorities people want to see her as. Why do you think it's bad? |
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Esquirtit said: @Setsuei I only know about that DBZ guy but he's not even human anyway. I haven't come across any other bad depictions. I still don't understand what's so bad about Sister Krone though. It's just a really good design for a villain and her character in the end becomes individualistic with more backstory, characterization and not some bad monster employed by the authorities people want to see her as. Why do you think it's bad? I wasnt just talking about anime, but in general. Though I'm sure there are some bad depictions of black people in anime too, though I'm not sure which. As for Krone, I didn't really have any problems with her when I watched Promised Neverland. |
Me and the Devil Blues manga has perhaps the best character design of black characters As for anime, Bush Baby gives the most screen time to black characters, taking place in Kenya, even covering the Masai. Less racist than the original novel too. @Esquirtit Anime substituted native poachers with white poachers. Back then memories of Kenya's independence and the bloody conflicts during the wars were still fresh and I could tell author was not so ardent about it. In the 1969 movie where he co-wrote the script they go even further. Jackie's mother is not alive. Movie is showing her grave, having died as innocent victim during the conflicts. Another scene shows a Hindu police officer telling a Muslim that he believes in a false God. Muslim is leader of an ebony poaching ring and even pays a native poacher to hunt the girl and Tenbo. He even says that black man kidnapping a white girl will have a negative effect on the new government. You hear phrases "we built the country from nothing and they kick us out", "law and order will prevail for once in this country". Even the Masai are portrayed negatively. Instead of giving shelter to them they go to warn the police. No wonder it was filmed in Tanzania. Very good film nonetheless with very good cinematography and magnificent landscapes and animal videos. Deserves a bd release. Only available on VHS and relatively unknown. The short clips with the Bush Baby are very unique too. |
removed-userAug 12, 2019 3:44 PM
| @Kitcele PM me if you want kittens I offer discount to people who deliver criticism on inhumane works of art @Petran79 Lol that's from the guy who did Prison School. He draws very realistic human character in every work he does probably, apart from some hilarious comedic designs. I'll read it someday never knew a manga like that existed, especially not from someone who made Prison School Bust Baby looks very boring, I wouldn't want to see such bland character designs. What was racist in the original novel? |
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FrankyP said: I didn't watch the youtube video and I did not get far enough into Promise Neverland before dropping it to see this character, but based on the thumbnail alone, she is clearly drawn as a mammy character. If you don't know what that is, google it. Just looks like a scary strong black villain to me, sure she resembles some of those drawings on some level but there's not really anything wrong with that. She reminds me more of Tsubone from HxH aka the GOAT, who she shares more similarities with and makes me inclined to believe served as an inspiration The guy in this vid acknowledges there's no underlying racist message but still insists it's harmful so all his criticism is basically useless and the problem lies with the individual viewer no one else @Black_Sheep97 I'm certain that's a fake sjw troll account lol. If not very unfortunate for her/him/it |
| poop |
| I've seen the video a while back and honestly, her anime design is a lot better than her manga design. Its pretty terrible, it's like the artist never took any actual references. But I see where everyone is coming from. But like someone said before, there's better black representation. |
| "It's not like I wanted a signature or anything...BAKA!" - A MAL user. |
| Okay but I thought Sister Krone was pretty badass? Like a very intimidating character. Making memorable characters in good way is all that matters. I really didn't find it "racist". Most anime youtubers are idiots anyway. except for Best Guy Ever, Sage, and me; I'm awesome haha |
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| We shouldn't really judge whether a character is a racist caricature or not based on how great he/she is. Sister Krone was a fun character with intriguing motives in a great show, who made things interesting. That means exactly nothing for or against the claim that the show makes use of potentially offensive racial stereotypes through her. |
jal90 said: We shouldn't really judge whether a character is a racist caricature or not based on how great he/she is. Sister Krone was a fun character with intriguing motives in a great show, who made things interesting. That means exactly nothing for or against the claim that the show makes use of potentially offensive racial stereotypes through her. But it's a bunch of BULLSHIT. A "mammy character" is this; https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/ But Krone doesn't LOOK OR ACT anything like that? |
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| @FrankyP She's not a portrayal of a mammy that's being dishonest to the story. Like that doesn't even make sense, all humans are enslaved regardless of race. I don't agree that she looks like the racist drawings used back in the day, only if you want to see it @jal90 I do not think she's a racist caricature but not based on how much of an effective villain I think she is. I believe all of the supposed racial stereotypes she possesses are all self-explanatory results of the circumstances of her character in the story. I mean it all comes down to that ''potentially offensive'' in other words how much do you want to be offended/discomforted. And also if it's fair to keep resorting back to 19th and 20th racism to reinforce this point that this anime in particular is harmful, where do we draw the line of character designs being offensive etc Another point is how much am I rambling and if this thread was even a good idea |
| poop |
Chiibi said: jal90 said: We shouldn't really judge whether a character is a racist caricature or not based on how great he/she is. Sister Krone was a fun character with intriguing motives in a great show, who made things interesting. That means exactly nothing for or against the claim that the show makes use of potentially offensive racial stereotypes through her. But it's a bunch of BULLSHIT. A "mammy character" is this; https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/ But Krone doesn't LOOK OR ACT anything like that? Where does this "bunch of BULLSHIT" of yours come from? Do the complaints about her being a racist caricature come from her being specifically a mammy character? I've seen that mentioned in this thread by one person. Anyway, what I'm commenting is that these two circumstances are not incompatible. It could be both a racist caricature and a genuinely compelling character. So counterarguments on this matter shouldn't really go in that way of saying "how is this racist if she's a great villain?". |
petran79 said: well baby blues is ment to be almost photorealistic and if you look at the facial features he possesses, it's similar to what krone possess except krone is meant to be demented and broken and distrubed.Me and the Devil Blues manga has perhaps the best character design of black characters As for anime, Bush Baby gives the most screen time to black characters, taking place in Kenya, even covering the Masai. Less racist than the original novel too. @Esquirtit Anime substituted native poachers with white poachers. Back then memories of Kenya's independence and the bloody conflicts during the wars were still fresh and I could tell author was not so ardent about it. In the 1969 movie where he co-wrote the script they go even further. Jackie's mother is not alive. Movie is showing her grave, having died as innocent victim during the conflicts. Another scene shows a Hindu police officer telling a Muslim that he believes in a false God. Muslim is leader of an ebony poaching ring and even pays a native poacher to hunt the girl and Tenbo. He even says that black man kidnapping a white girl will have a negative effect on the new government. You hear phrases "we built the country from nothing and they kick us out", "law and order will prevail for once in this country". Even the Masai are portrayed negatively. Instead of giving shelter to them they go to warn the police. No wonder it was filmed in Tanzania. Very good film nonetheless with very good cinematography and magnificent landscapes and animal videos. Deserves a bd release. Only available on VHS and relatively unknown. The short clips with the Bush Baby are very unique too. I need to check out that film though. |
Black_Sheep97 said: jal90 said: the bunch of bullshit comes from misconstruing context and connotations. Where does this "bunch of BULLSHIT" of yours come from? Do the complaints about her being a racist caricature come from her being specifically a mammy character? I've seen that mentioned in this thread by one person. Anyway, what I'm commenting is that these two circumstances are not incompatible. It could be both a racist caricature and a genuinely compelling character. So counterarguments on this matter shouldn't really go in that way of saying "how is this racist if she's a great villain?". And in regards to your second paragraph, that's an oxymoron you can't be both a rascist caricature and a geniuelly compelling character, once you're a fleshed out developed character you cease to be a mere sterotypical caricature. You can be both because a character can be genuinely menacing in context through the use of racial traits, for instance. It's about different levels of discourse. I'm pretty sure a lot of people found Sister Krone a compelling villain for reasons related to her insertion in the narrative, her role and her personality, but were still uncomfortable about the use of racial traits. So if you want to disagree and debate, focus on the latter and not the former. It's not a counterargument to say "but she's a great character". Also, to be an oxymoron there should be an explicit, and not a completely subjective contradiction in terms. |
| Guys what do you expect from Shounen Jump (Weekly) adaptation? All their titles have the subtlety of a brick in your face. |
alshuAug 13, 2019 7:47 AM
| I really feel like this is a case of "I'm going to LOOK for inoffensive things to be offended by". These people are bored af. This is why everyone hates SJWs. :/ |
ChiibiAug 13, 2019 8:50 AM
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Black_Sheep97 said: jal90 said: no, that's not how it works for a caricature to be uncomfortable, a caricature is problematic and uncomfortable because of the lack of depth and the combination of sterotypes, that's they're usage in fiction and art, once you provide depth to it ,it ceases to be mere sterotypes hence, it ceases to be just a caricature. So it is a counter argument as caricatures are never great characters that's why they are critisized. If a disagreement is here, then the term caricature associated with krone isn't a negative. You can be both because a character can be genuinely menacing in context through the use of racial traits, for instance. It's about different levels of discourse. I'm pretty sure a lot of people found Sister Krone a compelling villain for reasons related to her insertion in the narrative, her role and her personality, but were still uncomfortable about the use of racial traits. So if you want to disagree and debate, focus on the latter and not the former. It's not a counterargument to say "but she's a great character". Also, to be an oxymoron there should be an explicit, and not a completely subjective contradiction in terms. So based on my explanation, it is an oxymoron , as it is an explicit contradiction. Not really. A character's traits can be physically described by the show as menacing, for instance, and fit the overall intent of the show. There can be a legit emotional answer. You are bringing depth to this discussion and I'm not talking about depth, I'm talking about functionality in the overall purpose of a scene or a character. And for the fucking third time (really...) my point is that whether you enjoyed Krone's role or not, whether it worked for you or not in the intended purpose (being a frightening and intimidating villain, for instance), does nof factor in a discussion about whether the show uses racial stereotypes with her that should be avoided because they are offensive to real people. They are different levels of analysis and therefore one doesn't answer the other. My entire point. You are deviating the question to some sort of self-defined essential dogma that I don't care about. |
Black_Sheep97 said: jal90 said: Depth is relevant to this discussion cause a mere caricature doesn't have that, thats line that separates a caricature from a 3 dimensional person and 3 dimensional person isn't a caricature no matter what stereotypes they may posses.Not really. A character's traits can be physically described by the show as menacing, for instance, and fit the overall intent of the show. There can be a legit emotional answer. You are bringing depth to this discussion and I'm not talking about depth, I'm talking about functionality in the overall purpose of a scene or a character. And for the fucking third time (really...) my point is that whether you enjoyed Krone's role or not, whether it worked for you or not in the intended purpose (being a frightening and intimidating villain, for instance), does nof factor in a discussion about whether the show uses racial stereotypes with her that should be avoided because they are offensive to real people. They are different levels of analysis and therefore one doesn't answer the other. My entire point. You are deviating the question to some sort of self-defined essential dogma that I don't care about. Just because people are offended doesn't make their offense justified especially when it comes from emotion and has such a blatant contradiction. To restrict stereotypes in story or their portrayal , implies setting a creative dogma itself and also denies truths about the human condition, the fact of the matter is stereotypes no matter how offensive or demeaning some may be all come from a curnal truth, and restrict only the non flattering ones and to permit only the flattering ones, is promoting one sided propaganda and ideology. The problem that comes from portraying an amalgamation of stereotypes is if that's all there is and no substance beneath, that is synonymous with bad writing and also implies lack of depth when it comes to characteristics , ergo it becomes offensive on a writing level and on an offensive level. The fact of the matter is , there is a good reason why sister krone is the way she is, and not just a mere stereotype. I mean, depth is not relevant to this discussion because we are not discussing depth xD And of course there is substance and intent behind the racial stereotypes of Sister Krone. They serve a carefully thought out purpose in the narrative, to cause an emotion in the viewer. To perceive her as a deranged and scary individual, to which her physical appearance plays a definitive role. The method is debatable though, as for the fourth time, this is not a question that is fully resolved with an "it made me feel as intended, so it's all fine". |
Black_Sheep97 said: jal90 said: depth is relevant in this discussion, cause with depth caricature cease to exists that's the point. You cant have a caricature with depth.I mean, depth is not relevant to this discussion because we are not discussing depth xD And of course there is substance and intent behind the racial stereotypes of Sister Krone. They serve a carefully thought out purpose in the narrative, to cause an emotion in the viewer. To perceive her as a deranged and scary individual, to which her physical appearance plays a definitive role. The method is debatable though, as for the fourth time, this is not a question that is fully resolved with an "it made me feel as intended, so it's all fine". If it serves a valid purpose in the story and isn't forced, nor is it deceptive of the human condition, the there is no reason valid reason to be offended just because its related to black ethnicity. Please tell me when did I exactly make a mention of Krone's depth. I talked about narrative functionality. |
Nurguburu said: muh "unfortunate", muh "stereotype", why should I care? Like Joey (The Anime Man) said: "y’all just need to stop watching anime". Yup, these people should stop watching and reading and drawing ANYTHING; nobody is allowed to say a word to ANYBODY; they can sit on the floor and play with sticks in ABSOLUTE SILENCE. All the sticks will be the same color, height, and circumference. xD |
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| yeah imagine being that idiot from the video and starting your argument with the 'i'm objectively right' what a dipshit people relaly go out of their way to find stuff to be offended and outraged by |
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| @FrankyP Not really that's subjective. Everything in art could be called ridiculous, what I find ridiculous is linking her character design with anti black propoganda because you're sensitive. I mean you literally see her as a portrayal of a mammy. Like I said before ''she resembles some of those drawings on some level but there's not really anything wrong with that''. Those drawings depict black woman, so of course there's some level of similarity but that's what art unfortunately is I guess. Even in some African art you'll be able to find similarities, learn to look past that. The argument that other art styles did it better is ridiculous, because than you're calling for some general rule how blacks are supposed to be drawn no matter the context. This is the part I'm at least willing to have some sympathy for but it's not actually what I found interesting to get hung up on I should've made my opening post more clear, what do people think of all the other criticism in this vid? Is it valid at all? Krone being so ''monstrous'' and having traits of ''bestiality'' is a result of the setting and has little to do with her race, everyone gets trained up until a certain age. She got picked to control Plants, all the traits that make her a compelling villain have little do with her race (apart from physical appearance, but it's anime and happens to every villainous character no matter which race in close up shots). For instance, Emma was just as athletic (and animalistic I guess lmao) and if not for the plot would've been able to control Plants as well. The story makes this clear, is it still ''problematic'' and ''harmful'' that some retards will view black women differently? It's such whiny criticism imo, elitist shit |
| poop |
FrankyP said: 1. Racism isn't subjective. How can that be true if only SOME people find Krone "racist" when lots of them don't? 2. Being sensitive isn't a bad thing. But being OVERLY sensitive will get people irritated with you, that is for sure. If you let yourself get offended by every single tiny thing...you're gonna have a bad time....and you're gonna give other people a bad time and they're not gonna like ya. |
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| Thread locked Threads that extend xtend beyond the discussion of anime/manga as an entertainment medium to highly-debated social and/or moral issues aren't allowed as stated in Anime Discussion rule 5 |
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