| No shit I wouldn't give death to them easily. I'll torture them until they wish they were dead. And let's keep their eyes safe. I want them to see how ugly they've become inside and out. Now where are these Higurashi girls when you need them? Seriously though, it's against my morals to do that but those criminals are beyond salvation. |
stormgoddess said: No shit I wouldn't give death to them easily. I'll torture them until they wish they were dead. And let's keep their eyes safe. I want them to see how ugly they've become inside and out. Now where are these Higurashi girls when you need them? Seriously though, it's against my morals to do that but those criminals are beyond salvation. Finally someone who understands what I am talking about... They don't deserve death.... It goes against my morals too, and I would never imagine myself thinking this but I'd really like to have half our with each of them.. I'd make them beg me to kill them. I would tape everything and not hurt them so much that they can die.... So when they recover I would play them those tapes.... |
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hikky said: What I'm always surprised about is that people can read something like this and turn right around and say they want to do the same thing to the people who did it. As if it suddenly becomes okay because you decided that the person deserves it. That kind of thinking is the reason this stuff happens in the first place. Why the fuck not? I'd only be killing animals without conscience, are you saying those things are human? I don't know about you but they aren't the same species as me. |
RandomStuff said: Without equality you set up a balance favoring one side, either the criminals or the victims. The lack of balance that is heavily in favor of criminals today is part of what helps spur them to crimes, the punishments are weak and meager compared to the gravity of the crimes they commit (not for EVERYTHING, but there are quite a few scenarios that I'm talking about) I don't know if you realize that psychopathy, for example, is a hard mental deficiency. People will be criminals regardless of the punishment they might receive upon being caught. We've got plenty of murderers and rapists here in our American prisons, despite every one of them being fully aware that if caught, they'd spend a serious amount of time, or maybe the rest of their life in a gang-run hellhole. Experience is subjective, but doing nothing is hardly a better alternative. Your example of masochism is a rather bad one, since they'll enjoy any kind of punishment in the way you describe them, suggesting the worst punishment you could give them would be no punishment at all - hardly a good option. That's the whole point. The goal of punishing people shouldn't be to make them suffer, it should be to prevent them from committing the same crimes again. I don't get how as long as you don't exceed their own crime it's such an atrocity, or how it spurs further crime. You sit here saying it's not fair to inflict the same things back on them, that is showing favoritism. How can you claim it is OK for them to go hurt others like that then not be hurt themselves in any manner whatsoever? You're allowing only certain people to be hurt [the victims], then not allowing others [the people who commit the crimes] to be hurt. That is not equality at all, and that kind of imbalance is part of the reason the current justice system in most first world countries is so flawed. The question is what it means to exceed their crime. It didn't seem excessive to the monarchies of a few hundred years ago to publicly torture blasphemers or homosexuals, because those were considered grave offenses. You're not allowing the victims to be hurt. The victims are hurt by the criminals and you can't prevent that before it happens. You can't have equality, no matter what you do. And equality shouldn't be the goal. The goal is to minimize suffering, not distribute it "fairly". Equality is not revenge, excess harm is revenge. That would be like wanting to torture someone to death for a year who merely shot someone, now that would be revenge. Again, excess is different in different cases. Take child molestation. If you just have some guy rape the criminal, it's not an equal punishment because child molestation generally happens in a developmental period in a situation of utter vulnerability and fear when it will cause pervasive, lifelong issues. So then what's an equal punishment? You kill the rapist? Some people think that's equal. Some people think that's excessive, since after all, the child still has a life to recover. And then some people would go further and want to make it a slow and painful death. Once again, it's impossible to formalize and define "equal" punishment, since what is equal would need to be decided on a case-by-case basis and would be purely subjective and emotionally charged. NOT TO MENTION that innocent people do get mistakenly convicted, and in those cases you're really unarguably doing something horrible and excessive. And then even when the accused is guilty to some degree, the details of the case may be inaccurate (since a lot of times they just have to rely on testimony). It's a crazy and unworkable system, and all it does is empower the people in charge of punishment to do inhuman things to someone with impunity, whether they "deserve" it or not. I have posed this question to all defenders of your viewpoint in this thread, and none have been willing to answer the question: "How do you expect with no force at all to deter these people from their ways?" This is my problem, if your goal is to prevent these people by reforming them in some manner, then be of some good help and explain how that works. I don't know if you've even understood my viewpoint. Or maybe you lumped it with other people I'm not claiming to speak for. I'm just suggesting what the purpose of punishment should be, not the specific way in which it should be carried out. Because I don't know the specific and most effective way to prevent repeat offense in every case, and I shouldn't claim to know that because that requires a lot of research. Here's a real testament to eye-for-an-eye justice. |
hikkyFeb 19, 2012 11:52 AM
| @hikky: -If you are killed for killing then you certainly won't be repeating the same offense now will you? -Punishment by definition would imply suffering of some sort, I do not know how you deem you can punish without any kind of suffering. If there is no suffering there is no cost to committing a crime, I'm curious to how you think no suffering [whether mental, physical, etc.] can accomplish reforming people from their ways. -Equal in some cases is very difficult as mentioned, raping a child is hard to equate. If they have a life to recover [i.e. they weren't killed], then I think you could at least reasonably say taking the criminal's life is out of the question, since that would be an inequality with no life taken in the first place. However, this problem exists even in the system you define, since you have to equate to how much "time is equal to the crime". The problem of relative equality is something that exists in any justice system, while you're trying to make it specific to the one I describe. -Much as above, there are two sides to every story. I also said earlier in this thread such measures should only be taken in cases where evidence is the strongest. I believe someone posted saying they were caught because one of them actually confessed in an unrelated crime. Regardless, I imagine with the workings of the case that at least some things are fact even if others remain subjective. If you have to proceed on testimony alone [excluding direct confession of the accused], then obviously you wouldn't want to proceed with things like this. Much the same however, the guilty can get off free or with light sentences because of those testimonies and emotionally charged individuals who are determined that people can be reformed. -As you claim this would empower those punishing, the current empowers criminals and obstructions of justice. This would be getting towards the flaws of anything in the hands of humans, more so than any specific system. -You are allowing the victims to be hurt, by protecting criminals from harm themselves which provides more incentive to commit the crime. Allowing such an inequality to exist that favors criminals is much like saying "I gave him the gun, but I didn't shoot it". It doesn't matter whether or not you are physically committing the crime yourself, the fact of the matter is the system you uphold prevents harm from befalling certain people [criminals], while allowing harm to fall on others [victims]. While it would be impossible to stop harm from befalling the victims, it is not impossible to allow harm to fall on criminals that would complete the equality. Defending certain groups and not others would be showing partial favor to one side of the argument, which cannot be done if true justice is to be accomplished. -Ahh the broken record of comparing anyone who would inflict the slightest harm to a criminal as some kind of pre-evolved medieval torture fanatic. Now you're really talking about inequality, unless someone specifically used medieval torture to kill their victim. I believe I said already excess harm crosses the line and is clearly an act of vengeance, which I wouldn't tolerate. While medieval torture is certainly an argument everyone loves to bring up, the reason we remember it so clearly is exactly because of the inequality of the crime to the punishment, which is the opposite of what I argue for. -Even if you agree on the purpose of punishment, there are a million and one ways to go about it, including both this way and the current. If you're going to claim the purpose but not bother to back it up with at least some theoretical way in which it can be done or is possible, it's quite hard to believe it is effective or realistic. |
JonyJC said: There's way too many people thinking along these lines, and I think I have repeated my thoughts to different people already.hikky said: What I'm always surprised about is that people can read something like this and turn right around and say they want to do the same thing to the people who did it. As if it suddenly becomes okay because you decided that the person deserves it. That kind of thinking is the reason this stuff happens in the first place. Why the fuck not? I'd only be killing animals without conscience, are you saying those things are human? I don't know about you but they aren't the same species as me. The equal punishment idea is impractical. You can't just expect to hire somebody and perform similar torture methods to criminals. That breeds criminals. By saying the criminal is an animal, doing the same treatment only makes that person the same as them, it's quite a simple thing to wrap people's head around. akutasame94 said: It goes against your morals to kill them, but your morals are perfectly fine to make yourself the same as them by doing the samething to them? Come on, people. We are better than that.stormgoddess said: No shit I wouldn't give death to them easily. I'll torture them until they wish they were dead. And let's keep their eyes safe. I want them to see how ugly they've become inside and out. Now where are these Higurashi girls when you need them? Seriously though, it's against my morals to do that but those criminals are beyond salvation. Finally someone who understands what I am talking about... They don't deserve death.... It goes against my morals too, and I would never imagine myself thinking this but I'd really like to have half our with each of them.. I'd make them beg me to kill them. I would tape everything and not hurt them so much that they can die.... So when they recover I would play them those tapes.... I'm fine with capital punishment, but only with definite repeated offenders (which is rare to be sentenced). But using the same methods to torture doesn't really make you that much different to whatever you call the criminals with. Sounds good when you say it, sounds horrible when it's executed. |
TachiiFeb 19, 2012 12:52 PM
Tachii said: JonyJC said: There's way too many people thinking along these lines, and I think I have repeated my thoughts to different people already.hikky said: What I'm always surprised about is that people can read something like this and turn right around and say they want to do the same thing to the people who did it. As if it suddenly becomes okay because you decided that the person deserves it. That kind of thinking is the reason this stuff happens in the first place. Why the fuck not? I'd only be killing animals without conscience, are you saying those things are human? I don't know about you but they aren't the same species as me. The equal punishment idea is impractical. You can't just expect to hire somebody and perform similar torture methods to criminals. That breeds criminals. By saying the criminal is an animal, doing the same treatment only makes that person the same as them, it's quite a simple thing to wrap people's head around. akutasame94 said: It goes against your morals to kill them, but your morals are perfectly fine to make yourself the same as them by doing the samething to them? Come on, people. We are better than that.stormgoddess said: No shit I wouldn't give death to them easily. I'll torture them until they wish they were dead. And let's keep their eyes safe. I want them to see how ugly they've become inside and out. Now where are these Higurashi girls when you need them? Seriously though, it's against my morals to do that but those criminals are beyond salvation. Finally someone who understands what I am talking about... They don't deserve death.... It goes against my morals too, and I would never imagine myself thinking this but I'd really like to have half our with each of them.. I'd make them beg me to kill them. I would tape everything and not hurt them so much that they can die.... So when they recover I would play them those tapes.... I'm fine with capital punishment, but only with definite repeated offenders (which is rare to be sentenced). But using the same methods to torture doesn't really make you that much different to whatever you call the criminals with. Sounds good when you say it, sounds horrible when it's executed. Yes probably I would feel horrible after doing something similar, and i would probably regret it, but they do deserve some punishment for what they did.... Also I said "I would never imagine myself thinking this", and this means I never though I wanted to hurt someone... Only once I felt so angry and that was when car hit my friend and he got out like nothing happened and even said it was her fault... I wanted to kill him, if it weren't for cops I don't know what would happen... What I want to say Is I completely understand what you want to say, but I just can't get over the fact that they got such small punishment... And that is the main reason I wrote what I wrote... |
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RandomStuff said: -Even if you agree on the purpose of punishment, there are a million and one ways to go about it, including both this way and the current. If you're going to claim the purpose but not bother to back it up with at least some theoretical way in which it can be done or is possible, it's quite hard to believe it is effective or realistic. I figure it's better to have a goal in mind that is productive, but needs actual evidence and research before it's fleshed out into a full system than suggesting something that's impractical, completely unrealistic and yes, barbaric. It doesn't matter what you personally would approve of. Your opinion of equal punishment is an opinion and opinions vary. A system that needs to be widely and consistently applicable. You can't make a system that just allows doing horrible things to people, if anything, simply because of the immense potential for its abuse. But again, it doesn't accomplish anything anyway, because criminals, even knowing the harsh consequences, still commit crimes. But it's okay, we're not going to agree, and unfortunately your opinion is the popular one. |
Tachii said: JonyJC said: There's way too many people thinking along these lines, and I think I have repeated my thoughts to different people already.Why the fuck not? I'd only be killing animals without conscience, are you saying those things are human? I don't know about you but they aren't the same species as me. The equal punishment idea is impractical. You can't just expect to hire somebody and perform similar torture methods to criminals. That breeds criminals. By saying the criminal is an animal, doing the same treatment only makes that person the same as them, it's quite a simple thing to wrap people's head around I probably quoted the wrong post or something, yeah giving equal punishment is stupid they should just be euthanized so that the people left behind can at least have a little bit of peace. A legal system shouldn't just be giving out punishment equal to the crime, there are many factors which can lead someone to kill another but when there's no reason at all? When a crime is so heinous that it doesn't leave a shadow of doubt that these animals did it without a shred of humanity? It doesn't matter what age they had, they are incapable of living in society, they aren't human. Put down the rabid dogs. |
| Saw this story a while ago, I feel bad for her. Sebulon said: Don't post stuff like this here, makes me sick to even think about it... Who the fuck does that to anyone, and to a girl? That's so fucking sick, those people should be executed without hesitation, those fucking sick freaks. I'm gonna go find those fuckers and treat them the same way. Then don't read it. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Horrible, horrible story and no one should have to go trough things like these. It's like the first Guinea Pig movie bring in to the real life. Wonder if these sick guys had seen that film. |
| Simple execution is too good for these freaks. They deserve the same torture. Besides such neglect in law show us that there really is no justice. In mothers place I would bring those bastards to justice myself |
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hikky said: RandomStuff said: hikky said: What I'm always surprised about is that people can read something like this and turn right around and say they want to do the same thing to the people who did it. As if it suddenly becomes okay because you decided that the person deserves it. That kind of thinking is the reason this stuff happens in the first place. This is the reason it happens in the first place? That would be implying the girl did something on this level to them first, sorry kiddo but for one they wouldn't be alive, and secondly, this happens because there is a great potential for evil within all humans. Now there are some good reasons for saying not to inflict it back, but this has to be the most nonsensical one I've read. The same sentiment could be said of your cause, that things like this suddenly become "ok just because they didn't really understand what they were doing". They're young and impressionable after all, it's all just fun and games right? Not sure if you read my other posts in this thread but I advise you to if you have not if you reply, since I have a feeling I'd just be repeating my points otherwise. The belief that the individual is justified in deciding what happens to another person is the way of thinking that causes these things. You say eye for an eye. But experience is not equal from person to person. If I'm a masochist and go around poking people with needles, it's not going to be a very good punishment to poke me with needles, is it? Well, in that case you'd have to think up a punishment that you thought was about equally bad for me as it was for other people to be poked by my needles. You would need to subjectively decide on a punishment for me, based on the principle that I "deserved" it. And at that point, you'll find a way to justify anything you want to do to me, especially since your perception of my suffering will be skewed by the fact that you don't like me. The point is that whether or not someone deserves something is subjective because people value different things differently. Doing something to someone because they "deserve it" or because the individual otherwise justifies the harm they are doing is the cause of all kinds of atrocity committed by surprisingly sane people. The goal of punishment should be prevention, not some notion of fairness or equality and especially not revenge. Revenge of any kind accomplishes nothing but to set an ugly precedent. @Hikky, I don't think he really even understands your point. From reading both your arguments I can only say that he sounds like he's arguing something that isn't even being argued about. Totally missing the point. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos"    Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
Bloodcalibur said: @Hikky, I don't think he really even understands your point. From reading both your arguments I can only say that he sounds like he's arguing something that isn't even being argued about. Totally missing the point. I got the same impression. Surprisingly common thing though. |
hikky said: I figure it's better to have a goal in mind that is productive, but needs actual evidence and research before it's fleshed out into a full system than suggesting something that's impractical, completely unrealistic and yes, barbaric. It doesn't matter what you personally would approve of. Your opinion of equal punishment is an opinion and opinions vary. A system that needs to be widely and consistently applicable. You can't make a system that just allows doing horrible things to people, if anything, simply because of the immense potential for its abuse. But again, it doesn't accomplish anything anyway, because criminals, even knowing the harsh consequences, still commit crimes. A goal in mind without any means or planning is like a new years resolution: quickly forgotten and lacking effort. Theory is not everyone's forte, and most people prefer hard facts above all else, which I don't have a problem with. Heavy research should be done on matters such as this, but I doubt neither I nor you have the proper means to be authorized to conduct such experiments considering the idea I described does not currently exist. While you claim to not want to shoot an opinion without a well researched-basis, you clearly shot down mine lacking those facts even if they very well could be the best way to accomplish your desired goal. I already even addressed this in my previous post, that regardless of your system it IS opinion based in many scenarios. Under the current system what is equal punishment is still an opinion, just done through time rather than any physical means. If a person molests a child as you gave an example of, there are those who would say life in prison, those who say 20 years, 10 years, 5 years and so forth. It is as I said, this is not specific to any system, when you are trying to make it specific to what I talk about to strengthen your argument ignoring the fact it exists within any system and the current. I doubt my opinion is the popular one, otherwise it would be the current system which is far from anything I have said. While it is nice that you want to state what things should be, I would argue that would be being the adopting the most unrealistic viewpoint of all. It is easy under the assumption everything works perfect [aka ideal] to say what should happen, that we live in a perfect world where after a small amount of time criminals [with no harm becoming them] learn the error of their ways and become productive members of society. Brilliant, but then you apply it to reality and may observe it is not realistic. Afterwards it is possible to examine whether or not the failure to achieve the goal causes other problems that also need solutions of their own. If those solutions are realistic and the initial goal was not, I would say it is a waste of time pursuing it until you fix the problems you actually can, otherwise you ignore the problem and let it grow continually worse and still fail to achieve anything of value. I may have missed a few of your points but you clearly missed a few of mine as well, so I'd say we're about even. |
| I don't get how ANYONE could do this? Geez. Holy fuck. What did I just read? D: Even worse, how can teenagers do that? I mean they were Juveniles right, so they were minors, but fuckkkk. I dunno how they could even live and think about what they did, |
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| Japanese news confirmed another death penalty for juvenile criminal. The crime happened in 1999 and the criminal has not fully reached 18 year old. Ref: Hikari-city rape and double murder (a 23 housewife and her 11 month old infant) His lawyers argued in court that he said he raped the woman after strangling her as a "ritual of resurrection" and that he stuffed the baby's body in the closet because he thought the cartoon robotic cat Doraemon "would do something about it." http://jiadep.org/Hikari_Case.html Japanese: ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/光市母子殺害事件 The case has also gone through a lengthy process to reach this judgement. It seems every one is celebrating in 2ch: http://blog.livedoor.jp/dqnplus/archives/1697576.html |
| OMG, are they really humans? How can they do such things to a helpless girl like that? I know these things happened around even without our knowledge. But this news really shocked me. Well, I hope they will get what they deserved after all the things they had done!!! |
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Rasmu said: where is kira when we need him |
| One of the more disgusting things I've read in a while. It's almost inconceivable to me that things like this actually happen.. it's an absolute joke that all of them didn't get a life sentence, and that some of them got off with something as short as an 8 year sentence.. I wonder how the hell the justice system came to such a conclusion? I have ABSOLUTELY no idea how the Japanese court system works, but I would be very interested to know if anyone can enlighten me on the subject. |
petalshreds said: Rasmu said: where is kira when we need him |
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| Wow from this description the killers deserve to be tortured even greater then what they did to that girl. Instead all they got was prison time? And now they are all out? Im sorry but under these circumstances this is the equivalent of just being slapped on the wrist and saying don't do that again. |
bstrong7890Feb 24, 2012 10:14 PM
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| Given how this topic is still getting replies MAL GD definitely needs something more to talk about... I'm too lazy to think of an interesting topic atm. |
| I heard about this case kinky also, lol'd at |
hewhodoesnotcare said: may the world of hell torture these guys for all enternity......also the parents should find out where these guys live pass out flyers to the community about the atrocities they have commited. ohohohoho |
| SO, on a lighter note. Who actually read the manga based on this true event and jerked off to it? I know some of you sick fuckers have done so =S. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos" Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
Bloodcalibur said: SO, on a lighter note. Who actually read the manga based on this true event and jerked off to it? I know some of you sick fuckers have done so =S. I did. |
| もののあはれ。。。 |
| I hope this doesn't encourage anything. My fingers are trembling as I type this. I hope this doesn't ever happen to anyone else. |
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| i know this is sick world and i would expect anything.. i can't understand her pain or sufferings.. |
| This people are the scumbags of the earth. IMO, they should let the mother have her way with them; disposing of them as she pleased. |
Noncomplatypus said: Bloodcalibur said: SO, on a lighter note. Who actually read the manga based on this true event and jerked off to it? I know some of you sick fuckers have done so =S. I did. And I believe you too. Just checked your manga list, plus your sig. Lol. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos" Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
| I remember reading this story on a facebook page a couple of years ago. It's sickening how cruel humans can be. |
| girl need to be love not torture |
| execution seems to be to me too easy a way out...also, does i really make sense to treat the brutal brutally? just leads to more bad karma in the universe, plus a life sentence (in japanese prison especially) is far more torturous than merely putting them to death - people this far gone ethically really should never breath free air again... |
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EinLawliet said: problem is that people this messed up don't seem to be stopped from committing crimes like these because of fear of a death penalty - life imprisonment (in my mind) would be far worse than a quick, clean death - let them rot in jail...Rasmu said: where is kira when we need him Agreed... Horrible... I think death sentence should be applied in all countries to avoid things like these. |
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| I blame anime |
| Think the name of the film is "Concrete Girl" |
Bloodcalibur said: SO, on a lighter note. Who actually read the manga based on this true event and jerked off to it? I know some of you sick fuckers have done so =S. I've read both 17 Sai and Modern Stories of the Bizarre. They treat the story of this girl very differently. 17 Sai focuses on the psychological aspects and there is also her sister that is desperately searching her missing sister. It's more like a warning that bad things might happen if you are careless. Modern Stories of the Bizarre, on the other hand, is pure "fap material", mainly focused on graphic violent scenes. The fact that there are people who are sexually aroused by it, knowing it is based on a true story, is slightly disturbing. |
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CissySSE said: Bloodcalibur said: SO, on a lighter note. Who actually read the manga based on this true event and jerked off to it? I know some of you sick fuckers have done so =S. I've read both 17 Sai and Modern Stories of the Bizarre. They treat the story of this girl very differently. 17 Sai focuses on the psychological aspects and there is also her sister that is desperately searching her missing sister. It's more like a warning that bad things might happen if you are careless. Modern Stories of the Bizarre, on the other hand, is pure "fap material", mainly focused on graphic violent scenes. The fact that there are people who are sexually aroused by it, knowing it is based on a true story, is slightly disturbing. On a personal standpoint, I agree. Even for those people who do have a fetish for such acts, to fap to such things that are based [and pretty directly too] on a true story is kinda weird. But to each their own I guess. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos" Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
| Holy shit... This makes the slasher movie Hatchet and Hatchet II sound like child's play. I dont know if there is a god or not but if there is one those guys are gonna burn good. |
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| "This world is rotting... Everyday, the news always tells about bad things happening... I shall become the god of a new world! A world where people are honest, generous, and hard working. I am justice!" If only Kira were here.... |
GeassForce said: Holy shit... This makes the slasher movie Hatchet and Hatchet II sound like child's play. I dont know if there is a god or not but if there is one those guys are gonna burn good. If there is a deity, he/she/it clearly detested that girl, so I don't think so. |
| もののあはれ。。。 |
hentai_proxy said: i know this is totally off topic, but i agree: if kira did in fact exist, we would live in a world of perfect fascism, a place i definitely would not want to be - death note, i believe, was an indictment of what too much power can do to people who start out just like us, but can eventually evolve into monsters as murderous as those they once despised....Darkraivids said: If only Kira were here.... ...most of us wouldn't be. Those of us who want to live free, at least. |
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