| Ok, so the purpose of this thread is for people to realize the general misconception that the action-themed shounen anime is for guys and the relationship-themed shojo anime is for girls, and people from either gender would dislike the genre for the opposite gender. Instead of for people to realize this idea that is untrue, why not correct this untrue idea that many people seem to have? Personally, I wonder why do so many people think that girls don't like action, mecha, violence, dark-themed anime? I love the shounen genre, and I go *0* at these kinds of themes, not the other way around. Haven't people start to realize that many of the girls who posted here said that they rather preferred the shounen genre more than the shojo genre, and guys here said they liked to watch shojo anime? But people still think that the targeted audience of the cute, mussy, sweet, lovey-dovey, so-called "girly" anime are just girls. It's the opposite way around. This is a huge stereotype and misunderstanding. All in all, we should not categorize people on what they like to watch along the gender line. There might have been less controversies if anime were not categorized along the gender line. People like to watch what they like to watch. If something is targeted at a certain group of people, that doesn't mean there aren't other groups of people who might also like it. If a girl likes to watch action-oriented anime, or if a guy likes to watch relationship-oriented anime, so be it. There is nothing super special or unique about it. At last, it still came down to the universally ultimate gender-discussion, which is, unavoidable, for there exists two genders. *sighs* |
nau-yNov 8, 2011 3:43 AM
lisnoire said: FroZen109 said: Most likely. Can't say for sure because I am one of the few mutants who didn't care for it and dropped it.dont you reckon madoka is aimed more at males because of the violence and dark themes i dont really think this its just i was in a similar discussion like this and this came up Madoka is aimed at males and lures them with the power of moe. |
| I'mma girl. c: Deadman Wonderland Highschool of the Dead 11eyes (I REGRET watching that. -___-) Shiki Dragon Ball Z Kai Kuroshitsuji (I need to get back to waching that :x) Pandora Hearts & I have like, a ton of others to watch ;D |
| Dont touch me I'm in despair. |
Motion_Menace said: lisnoire said: FroZen109 said: Most likely. Can't say for sure because I am one of the few mutants who didn't care for it and dropped it.dont you reckon madoka is aimed more at males because of the violence and dark themes i dont really think this its just i was in a similar discussion like this and this came up Madoka is aimed at males and lures them with the power of moe. Wasn't true for me. I didn't give a crap about the characters until they start getting butchered in bizarre ways, what made me like the series was the sic-fi twists and conclusion; although the cute 2D girlies are definitely a plus, it isn't the core of the show. nau-y said: Personally, I wonder why do so many people think that girls don't like action, mecha, violence, dark-themed anime? I love the shounen genre, and I go *0* at these kinds of themes, not the other way around. Haven't people start to realize that many of the girls who posted here said that they rather preferred the shounen genre more than the shojo genre, and guys here said they liked to watch shojo anime? But people still think that the targeted audience of the cute, mussy, sweet, lovey-dovey, so-called "girly" anime are just girls. It's the opposite way around. This is a huge stereotype and misunderstanding. Traditional societal gender roles is what you're up against. It's been prevalent in the majority of world civilizations for pretty much as long as we've been ... 'civilized'. I can go on and on about the beginning or causes for gender inequality but you'd much rather take a course on political philosophy if you're interested. The point is, culture grows on people and gets passed down generationally; usually what you see when you're a kid until a young adult will likely influence you for the rest of your life. Mangekas and writers in general are no exception, they don't always write stories you like just because you're a targeted demographic, they write stories they *think* you'll like, 'because' of the correlation between past demographic data and cultural values, which is usually the 'safest' way to go. Not everyone can be a revolutionary. So while this point of view may change overtime, it certainly won't overnight. |
ideoidiomNov 8, 2011 12:43 PM
nau-y said: The primary purpose of this is thread is to have some fun and perhaps realize something about ourselves. Ok, so the purpose of this thread is for people to realize the general misconception that the action-themed shounen anime is for guys and the relationship-themed shojo anime is for girls, and people from either gender would dislike the genre for the opposite gender. Instead of for people to realize this idea that is untrue, why not correct this untrue idea that many people seem to have? Personally, I wonder why do so many people think that girls don't like action, mecha, violence, dark-themed anime? I love the shounen genre, and I go *0* at these kinds of themes, not the other way around. Haven't people start to realize that many of the girls who posted here said that they rather preferred the shounen genre more than the shojo genre, and guys here said they liked to watch shojo anime? But people still think that the targeted audience of the cute, mussy, sweet, lovey-dovey, so-called "girly" anime are just girls. It's the opposite way around. This is a huge stereotype and misunderstanding. All in all, we should not categorize people on what they like to watch along the gender line. There might have been less controversies if anime were not categorized along the gender line. People like to watch what they like to watch. If something is targeted at a certain group of people, that doesn't mean there aren't other groups of people who might also like it. If a girl likes to watch action-oriented anime, or if a guy likes to watch relationship-oriented anime, so be it. There is nothing super special or unique about it. At last, it still came down to the universally ultimate gender-discussion, which is, unavoidable, for there exists two genders. *sighs* Why should we try to "correct" what people find enjoyable. Some will ignore gender barriers and some won't. I also find it interesting to see what people perceive as guy stuff and girl stuff. You will find the majority of anime I rate 8 and above were originally targeted at a male demographic but not exclusively so. It is certainly my observation that more girls are open to "guy" anime than guys are open to "girly" anime. More secure a person is about who they really are, the more willing they are to cross the superficial gender lines the industry still draws for marketing purposes. Actually, I do think it is kind of special when folks do cross those lines but, at the same time, there is nothing wrong with boys liking actiony shounen stuff and girls liking cute fluffy, flower stuff (shudder.) Thankfully, more folk of either gender are talking about it and that is what will eventually temper stereotypical assumptions. It still seems that more guys shy away from Shoujo and Josie or won't admit liking it. (Major kudos to those who do.) |
| -animeS - The plural of anime is anime. More than one deer is still deer. There is no damn "s". -epic |ˈepik| noun•a work portraying heroic deeds/adventures covering an long period of time - adjective • heroic/grand in scale or character Active Military, Prior Service, and Veteran's Anime Club http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=25937&time=1299710079 |
| I'm a guy, I tend to prefer "girls" anime instead of "guys", although I'm not 100% sure about whether some on the list below are actually aimed for males since it's hard to tell. I'm also not sure if yuri series are aimed at guys, but I'm going to include them on my list anyway. Chihayafuru Ikoku Meiro no Croisée Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai Aoi Hana Candy Boy Clannad ef - a tale of memories. Fruits Basket Hanasaku Iroha Honey And Clover Kaichou wa Maid-Sama Kanon Kashimashi Kimi Ni Todoke Koi Kaze Lamune Lovely Complex Maria-sama ga miteru Nana Nodame Cantabile Ouran High School Host Club Paradise Kiss Sasameki Koto School Rumble Strawberry Panic Tamayura Toradora True Tears Usagi Drop |
 |
| Not gonna bother listing, but over three quarters are aimed at guys or both. |
| I dont rly see a reason for seperating anime into "guys" and "girls"...its kinda weird for me when you define "girly" anime as the emotional ones. i mean guys have emotions, too, dont they?O_o |
shiroto said: I dont rly see a reason for seperating anime into "guys" and "girls"...its kinda weird for me when you define "girly" anime as the emotional ones. i mean guys have emotions, too, dont they?O_o Exactly. If you draw the line between male and female oriented shows by romance, it'd be like saying we aren't capable of affection. That's like believing that men are all instinctual sexaholics. (._.) In any case, there definitely are additional filters other than the need to 'guard our masculinity', the question is: what. Is it only at the presence of certain themes that are considered taboo to male and female respectively? Such as the how guys can't stand the yaoi or, coversely, yuri for the girls? In which case I think we need to discuss just what that 'taboo' really is, otherwise we'd just be indiscriminately listing our favorite shows, of which all fall under the 'gray area'. Thoughts? |
ideoidiomNov 8, 2011 2:28 PM
ideoidiom said: Yeah!!! Finally questioning stereotypes and taboos.shiroto said: I dont rly see a reason for seperating anime into "guys" and "girls"...its kinda weird for me when you define "girly" anime as the emotional ones. i mean guys have emotions, too, dont they?O_o Exactly. If you draw the line between male and female oriented shows by romance, it'd be like saying we aren't capable of affection. That's like believing that all instinctual sexaholics. (._.) In any case, there definitely are additional filters other than the need to 'guard our masculinity', the question is: what. Is it only at the presence of certain themes that are considered taboo to male and female respectively? Such as the how guys can't stand the yaoi or, coversely, yuri for the girls? In which case I think we need to discuss just what that 'taboo' really is, otherwise we'd just be indiscriminately listing our favorite shows, of which all fall under the 'gray area'. Thoughts? |
| -animeS - The plural of anime is anime. More than one deer is still deer. There is no damn "s". -epic |ˈepik| noun•a work portraying heroic deeds/adventures covering an long period of time - adjective • heroic/grand in scale or character Active Military, Prior Service, and Veteran's Anime Club http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=25937&time=1299710079 |
| I thought that whenever I brought up this topic, people's innocent little feelies get hurt, threads explode, and armageddon befalls until mods intervene and exorcise all that is hurtful and assures us that everybody is perfect. |
bassa_x said: I am a guy with no emotions, non at all, but I watch "girly" anime some times because the story is good. If the story is good the main characters are nicely done then I will watch it. Bro you just contradicted yourself by saying a story is 'good'. |
lisnoire said: ideoidiom said: Yeah!!! Finally questioning stereotypes and taboos.shiroto said: I dont rly see a reason for seperating anime into "guys" and "girls"...its kinda weird for me when you define "girly" anime as the emotional ones. i mean guys have emotions, too, dont they?O_o Exactly. If you draw the line between male and female oriented shows by romance, it'd be like saying we aren't capable of affection. That's like believing that all instinctual sexaholics. (._.) In any case, there definitely are additional filters other than the need to 'guard our masculinity', the question is: what. Is it only at the presence of certain themes that are considered taboo to male and female respectively? Such as the how guys can't stand the yaoi or, coversely, yuri for the girls? In which case I think we need to discuss just what that 'taboo' really is, otherwise we'd just be indiscriminately listing our favorite shows, of which all fall under the 'gray area'. Thoughts? indeed haha, not that i was insulted or anything but because i recomended a lot of romance anime (AND started to make a list to make it easier for people) some people tought i was a woman ^^ but i think it's because i grew up with women that i got a softer side hahaha :D but still think most people watch the shows because they like the Synopsis, not because it's targeted at (if we all should do that we should all stay clear of shounen/shoujo anime and start watching seinen/josei. take usagi drops for example, if you can find anybody who think the show sucks (for other reasons then that THEY tought it was boring) i think i'm going to eat my shoe (and his/hers) but love this topic hehe (and glad the trolls didn't move from under the MAL bridge) |
| *Waits for that one courageous person to break the mold* |
| I had a similar discussion on a different forum some time ago, difference between demographics was the subject and it didn't go that well. In my perspective demographics shouldn't be related to genres at all, that's what most people get stuck in a rut about. Shoujo/josei shows can also be action packed with plenty of other themes involved other than romance. Take Higashi no Eden for example which is labeled as a josei anime, it's demographics would suggest that women in their 20s would be the only ones interested in it if people didn't "overstep the boundaries" of demographic classification. In reality, pretty much everyone watched it regardless of gender and even age. Same for Revolutionary Girl Utena, despite of it being a shoujo show targeted primarily at 15 year old girls, it's one of the most mature and classy pieces of anime fiction I've ever watched. So that I wouldn't get too much off topic, I'll mention a few shoujo/josei shows I quite enjoyed watching: Rose of Versailles Honey and Clover Natsume Yuujinchou Fruits Basket Kare Kano Ayashi no Ceres Cardcaptor Sakura Kaleido Star Nodame Cantabile Revolutionary Girl Utena Lovely Complex Ouran High School Host Club etc. |
 |
| I watch shoujou anime all the time. Pretty normal for me.. |
 |
| See, there's a huge flaw in the logic of assigning a show a demographic. When someone attach a demographic to a show, it never means that that show is 'exclusively' for that audience -- that much is obvious. I don't actually know the process behind databases such as MAL or ANN in assigning tags, but I can guess. First case: it is 'guessed' based on the content of the show through a group of people with 'expertise' in the field. Problem: you don't just 'grow up' overnight, there are without a doubt elements in the show that viewers can relate to or are generally interested in from all age groups. Also, by differentiating between sexes, they are basically taking cultural stereotypes and *inconclusive* behavioral psyche research into consideration, of which, again, does not apply to all of both sexes. Second Case: they do market research via methods such as surveys and study groups (from the top of my head). If done any decently, it should reflect interests from all different age groups -- some more than others. Problem: The best they can do with this data in terms of demographic assignment is to group it with the highest percentile. At any rate, it won't be conclusive, and the numbers tend to be all over the place. At best it'll be the 'closest' thing. Kind of like a party running the country despite being a minority government. People have the capacity to overlook things they don't like if they can appreciate the larger picture -- although, this tolerance only extends so far. Which is why it's more important to identify these 'taboos' because they simply apply to a much, much wider percentile and has the ability to divide viewers in a way that the 'gray area' (in other worlds, mainstream themes) can't. |
ideoidiomNov 8, 2011 9:08 PM
| How do you define girl shows? shows aimed at girls ... like Ouran Host Club? I loved Ouran so I'm gonna say yeah... I'm a male & I like girly shows o.o |
| I wonder are moeblob shows with girls like K-ON! considered guy shows or girl shows? What about shows that just have cutesy like Working!. Also are more senien style shows suppose to be guy shows? I never got that impression. Or does it depends on whether the protagonist is male or female? Aren't such shows for both genders? Many anime that get the shounen title don't seem to be strictly guy shows ether. Many put Death Note for example as shounen(although i think is more senien), but isn't that show mutually interesting to both genders? Bakuman too. Why would a girl not enjoy Bakuman? What exactly does it have that makes it a guy show? Or is it simply because the main isn't a female? |
| I have pretty limited experience with anime, but for the most really if I can relate to some element of a character/show, generally I'll consider watching, or continue watching. So really I'm up for trying a little bit of anything, and then see where I end up later. As of right now I've enjoyed Kannon 2006, and Clannad/Air to some extent.. None are probably the epitamy of masculinaty, but *shrugs* didn't take anything away from my enjoyment of them. That's pretty much the extent of my experiences so far though, so who knows what else I may find out there that I enjoy. |
| |
| I like Mahou Shoujo anime ._. I also liked Toradora and Maid Sama |
 |
| I'll watch a good anime regardless of it being targeted to males or females. |
 |
| Pleased to see this thread taking a turn toward the point I hoped it would make. Hope folk keep questioning and enjoying it. |
| -animeS - The plural of anime is anime. More than one deer is still deer. There is no damn "s". -epic |ˈepik| noun•a work portraying heroic deeds/adventures covering an long period of time - adjective • heroic/grand in scale or character Active Military, Prior Service, and Veteran's Anime Club http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=25937&time=1299710079 |
Monad said: I wonder are moeblob shows with girls like K-ON! considered guy shows or girl shows? What about shows that just have cutesy like Working!. Also are more senien style shows suppose to be guy shows? I never got that impression. Or does it depends on whether the protagonist is male or female? Aren't such shows for both genders? Many anime that get the shounen title don't seem to be strictly guy shows ether. Many put Death Note for example as shounen(although i think is more senien), but isn't that show mutually interesting to both genders? Bakuman too. Why would a girl not enjoy Bakuman? What exactly does it have that makes it a guy show? Or is it simply because the main isn't a female? Very difficult to understand how "they" classify the animes. I have seen Josei like Nana and really slow slice of life animes like Aria, and I think those are really outstanding animes, I'm a guy and I really had a great time watching those animes, I didn't hesitate about pick them or not, never had a felling or thought about it was an Anime a girl will whatch not a man. But now that we are being honest I still feel uncomfortable watching Yaoi or for me is erotic watching Yuri, even if that is not the meening of the plot of a particular anime. |
| i'm a guy, and i've enjoyed: kimi ni todoke bokura ga ita - (not the ending) gokujou seitokai maid-sama |
Monad said: I wonder are moeblob shows with girls like K-ON! considered guy shows or girl shows? What about shows that just have cutesy like Working!. Also are more senien style shows suppose to be guy shows? I never got that impression. Or does it depends on whether the protagonist is male or female? Aren't such shows for both genders? Many anime that get the shounen title don't seem to be strictly guy shows ether. Many put Death Note for example as shounen(although i think is more senien), but isn't that show mutually interesting to both genders? Bakuman too. Why would a girl not enjoy Bakuman? What exactly does it have that makes it a guy show? Or is it simply because the main isn't a female? funny, i was just wondering the same thing. i enjoy series like nichijou, yuru yuri, k-on etc, with like 100% female cast, so it's pretty difficult to figure out whether or not they are aimed on both genders or just girls... |
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| Why not start a thread about it? Don't forget a poll. |
| Most of the anime that I watch/have watched is directed at girls. Romances > explosions/epic sword fights with super long dialogues. |
LmfaoADoing said: funny, i was just wondering the same thing. i enjoy series like nichijou, yuru yuri, k-on etc, with like 100% female cast, so it's pretty difficult to figure out whether or not they are aimed on both genders or just girls... The answer is simple, really. It turns you on. Don't even try to deny it. There's a pretty simple litmus test for this... |
| i'm a girl and i loved death note dragon ball full metal alchemist(the brotherhood) le chevalier d'eon |
ideoidiom said: LmfaoADoing said: funny, i was just wondering the same thing. i enjoy series like nichijou, yuru yuri, k-on etc, with like 100% female cast, so it's pretty difficult to figure out whether or not they are aimed on both genders or just girls... The answer is simple, really. It turns you on. Don't even try to deny it. There's a pretty simple litmus test for this... why would i deny it? |
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| Well, you're asking if it's aimed at both genders or just 'girls'. Do you enjoy watching bishounen shows? Well there's your answer. Guys tend to hate sausage fests, I'm assuming it's the opposite for girls. |
| ^i'm quite sure many girls also watch shows with a sole female cast such as k-on for actual enjoyment, while there aren't alot of males who watch bishonen for the same reason. i'm sure most girls enjoy watching bishonen series, but to my knowledge the majority of those do not dislike in any way titles with small amount of penises. not everything has to relate to sexual tension. |
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| It does relate to sexual tension. From a masculinity perspective (some more so, some less so), guys think being feminine is 'gross', plus the fact that the standard societal stereotype for gay guys are "a bunch of cocksucking sissies" (excuse my language, but it precisely describe how most people view them), thus you get homophobia. But, we have no problems whatsoever with lesbians. In fact, it's been a running thing amongst guys that it's 'hot' (see "girl fight" in pop culture). From a feminine perspective (again, I'm going on societal stereotypes here, although there *ARE* reasons it exists), gay guys are their 'best friends'. They're fashionable, likes shopping, feels safe around -- all that fun stuff. However, in contrast to masculinity, there isn't a fine line between companionship or being 'too close for comfort', because 'feelings' are an attribute of femininity. Bottom line: guys have to prove their masculinity by hating gays, so whenever they see a cock cluster, it's like their innate duty to slam it; in contrast to guys, this barrier doesn't exist for girls, and like the guys' take on yuri, some girls find yaoi hot. |
ideoidiom said: Succinctly and objectively said.It does relate to sexual tension. From a masculinity perspective (some more so, some less so), guys think being feminine is 'gross', plus the fact that the standard societal stereotype for gay guys are "a bunch of cocksucking sissies" (excuse my language, but it precisely describe how most people view them), thus you get homophobia. But, we have no problems whatsoever with lesbians. In fact, it's been a running thing amongst guys that it's 'hot' (see "girl fight" in pop culture). From a feminine perspective (again, I'm going on societal stereotypes here, although there *ARE* reasons it exists), gay guys are their 'best friends'. They're fashionable, likes shopping, feels safe around -- all that fun stuff. However, in contrast to masculinity, there isn't a fine line between companionship or being 'too close for comfort', because 'feelings' are an attribute of femininity. Bottom line: guys have to prove their masculinity by hating gays, so whenever they see a cock cluster, it's like their innate duty to slam it; in contrast to guys, this barrier doesn't exist for girls, and like the guys' take on yuri, some girls find yaoi hot. |
| -animeS - The plural of anime is anime. More than one deer is still deer. There is no damn "s". -epic |ˈepik| noun•a work portraying heroic deeds/adventures covering an long period of time - adjective • heroic/grand in scale or character Active Military, Prior Service, and Veteran's Anime Club http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=25937&time=1299710079 |
| i do agree with all above, and i love your way of speech, but that already exceeds our little debate, dosen't really explain why i would deny the fact that 'it turns me on'. (and you pretty much just stated why i wouldn't deny so) after this speech, i can happily accept you're right on that subject, but non the less many of the females i recognize don't really dislike those kind of shows, while on the other hand majority of the males i know have developed homophobia. in my perspective it's pretty one sided for men (not alway's ofcourse). did you know 60% of the people in the shoujo ai/yuri fanclub are female? |
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| I dunno, some guys pretend to be all high and mighty by advocating equal rights and all that shizz without taking the time to understand the circumstances. Deep down, they're usually hypocrites. There's a certain psychological aspect to the difference in treatment between yaoi and yuri. For guys it's 'cool' to admit it, since 'evaluating women' has almost become somewhat of a 'sport'. But for girls, it's somewhat a different story. I remember reading something like this on ANN awhile ago. uhhh it goes something like: Q: Why do shoujo mangas tend to involve a form of yaoi or another? A: ...in a relatively 'traditional' society like japan (*bit of my own insight* much worse than 'western' societies, due to its long history being built on 'Confucianism'), where there's severe gender role inequality, sometimes our young readers like to project themselves as the dominant role of these stories, but of course, this is hard to pull off in reality, because of the societal differences (girls are expected to behave a certain way).... This actually kind of explain how shows like Revolutionary Girl Utena are so popular amongst the female audience. It's not so much that the girls love yuri, they just want to relate to something that's hard to come by. It's the same with guys what with the harem (do you think everyone irl magically magnetizes women?). So I guess, it was premature to assume that 'you' were one of those people, but I wasn't trying to prove that much of a point when I said it. Interpret it however you want. |
ideoidiom said: It's not so much that the girls love yuri, they just want to relate to something that's hard to come by. It's the same with guys what with the harem (do you think everyone irl magically magnetizes women?). if you're relating to the shoujo ai/yuri fanclub, i personally think you're wrong. by quoting some of the females there you get; and i'm too lazy atm to dig any deeper, those are just the recent ones. anyway, i'm not saying the club is made out of these kind of people, but there are alot of women in there who see a deeper meaning to this then just sexuality. romance for instance? other than that, i have nothing to add. (lol it rhymes ;Þ) |
datfagNov 24, 2011 2:19 PM
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| You know, you're not exactly 'disagreeing' with me. I said that people like to project themselves in situations that they perhaps like, but are 'unconventional' by the standards of society. The whole deal with shoujo and yaoi is just an example. Some guys may also like yuri because they may want to be in a certain type of relationship with someone like the 'yuri girls', but it'd be 'gay' to do so. (Do you see yaoi being commonly accepted as 'okay'? They call girls who like them 'fujoshi', which means rotten girl, in Japan, while I haven't seen an equivalent for guys liking yuri -- an example of gender inequality) Try to understand that the usual motive behind this as also being a relationship between "wanting freedom to enjoy what you enjoy", and "since it's possible irl, I'll just vent it on anime", which is I guess what's so 'thrilling' about "Forbidden Love". Kind of like obsession with Japanese culture. You want what you don't have. |
ideoidiomNov 24, 2011 4:17 PM
| Gantz. Dragon Ball Z. Gintama. Highschool of the Dead. |
| i have no reason to disagree, since i never really had an opinion to begin with.. sure you're making a valid point, but i really don't think you should be categorizing every single one of those people into that conclusion.. well whatever. |
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| I wasn't... notice how I tried to be as humble as possible by using some..maybe..perhaps..etc. I don't pretend to know everything about everyone. I'm just saying, these may be factors behind their preferences and circumstances. Certainly as of yet, I haven't heard a convincing argument that proved me wrong. |
ideoidiom said: Certainly as of yet, I haven't heard a convincing argument that proved me wrong. Well of course you haven't, since you aren't wrong.. but this isn't a one-sided thing, i think it should be viewed from multiple perspectives. |
The Internet is a very bad place, you should never go there. |
| ..such as...what other perspective? Isn't it what I've been doing? |
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