Controversy after Algerian failed IBA gender test ‘ I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini The Italian boxer Angela Carini broke down in tears after she abandoned her bout against the Algerian Imane Khelif after 46 seconds in a fight that sparked huge controversy at the Olympics. Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. “I went to the ring to honour my father. I was told a lot of times that I was a warrior but I preferred to stop for my health. I have never felt a punch like this.” The 25-year-old, from Naples, added: “I got into the ring to fight. I didn’t give up, but one punch hurt too much and so I said enough. I’m going out with my head held high. “After the second punch, after years of experience, I felt a strong pain in the nose. I said enough, because I didn’t want. I couldn’t finish the fight after the punch to the nose. So it was better to put an end to it. “I am in pieces because I am a fighter, they taught me to be a warrior. I have always tried to behave with honour, I have always represented my country with loyalty. This time I didn’t manage to because I couldn’t fight any more. Regardless of the person I had in front, of me, which doesn’t interest me, regardless of all the row, I just wanted to win. I wanted to face the person that I had in front of me and to fight.” Asked if it would have been better to pull out beforehand, Carini said: “I am not one that gives in easily. No, even if they had said that we wouldn’t fight, I would never have accepted it. I have a warrior’s mentality. This time I didn’t manage. I felt too much pain on my nose. I said enough. “It’s not a defeat for me – for me if you go in the ring you have already won, regardless of everything else. I’m not here to judge. It’s not up to me to say if it’s fair or not fair. I just did my job. I managed to leave with my head held high. I’m a mature woman; when I feel I cannot continue, its not giving in, it’s having the dignity to say enough. I was convinced I would win, I was concentrated, serene. But these punches to the nose hurt, I said enough.” Carini said it was “not up to me to judge” whether Khelif should have been barred from the competition. “I did my job.” Khelif stopped briefly to speak to the BBC: “I am here for gold,” the Algerian said. “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.” Reem Alsalem, the UN special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, expressed her concern about what had happened. “Angela Carini rightly followed her instincts and prioritised her physical safety, but she and other female athletes should not have been exposed to this physical and psychological violence based on their sex,” she tweeted. Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister, weighed in, saying: “I think that athletes who have male genetic characteristics should not be admitted to women’s competitions … from my point of view it was not an even contest.” Before the fight The International Olympic Committee (IOC) came under fire for permitting Khelif and Lin Yu‑ting of Taiwan to compete in the women’s category at these Games. Lin is due to face Uzbekistan’s Sitora Turdibekova in a featherweight bout in Paris on Friday. Last year both fighters were disqualified from the world championships, with the International Boxing Association (IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”. XY is the combination of chromosomes in males, while XX is the combination in females. But last night the IOC issued a statement that confirmed that said both boxers had “complied” with its entry regulations and “have been competing in international boxing competitions for many years in the women’s category”. “As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport,” it added. The IOC also accused the IBA of changing its gender rules in the middle of the 2023 world championships. “The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure – especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years,” it said. “Such an approach is contrary to good governance.” However, concerns have been raised among the boxing and wider sporting community. On Wednesday Australia’s boxing captain Caitlin Parker expressed her fears that one of her teammates is fighting in the same 66kg weight category as Khelif. “I don’t agree with them being allowed to compete in sport, especially combat sports,” Parker said. “It can be incredibly dangerous.” Agence France-Presse reported that Khelif claimed to be the victim of a “big conspiracy” after being disqualified just before the final at last year’s world championships. The Algerian Olympic Committee (COA) said on Wednesday it “strongly condemns the unethical targeting and maligningof our esteemed athlete, Imane Khelif, with baseless propaganda “from certain foreign media outlets”, adding: “Such attacks on her personality and dignity are deeply unfair, especially as she prepares for the pinnacle of her career at the Olympics. The COA has taken all necessary measures to protect our champion.” Luca Anna Hamori, a Hungarian boxer who is due to face Khelif in the next round, said she was prepared. “I will go to the ring and I will get my win. I trust my coaches and I trust myself.” https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-seconds-against-imane-khelif This is a complicated one, apparently, Khelif has hormonal advantages, it comes down to a simple medical condition as the Algerians claim. Also, it's important to note that she is not trans! Homosexuality is illegal in Algeria, I hardly doubt that a Muslim country would let a lgbtq person represent them. |
''Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good.'' |
Reply to MalchikRepaid
Fate_Saber88 said:
This is a complicated one, apparently, Khelif has hormonal advantages, it comes down to a simple medical condition as the Algerians claim.
Also, it's important to note that she is not trans! Homosexuality is illegal in Algeria, I hardly doubt that a Muslim country would let a lgbtq person represent them.
This is a complicated one, apparently, Khelif has hormonal advantages, it comes down to a simple medical condition as the Algerians claim.
Also, it's important to note that she is not trans! Homosexuality is illegal in Algeria, I hardly doubt that a Muslim country would let a lgbtq person represent them.
I talked to my Algerian-French friend (I taught her academic English writing and beginner-intermediate Korean online for 3 years for free) yesterday and she was shocked that a trans athlete represents a very anti-trans country. Yeah, from her own words, Algeria still doesn't like trans people on a public level with the younger demographics preferring to move overseas and not making families within the said country.
| @MalchikRepaid Except that Khelif is cisgender, now whether she is juiced up is another history. |
''Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good.'' |
| @MalchikRepaid @Fate_Saber88 Wait wait wait do y'all really not know what intersex is?! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development Geez that was like biology 101 back in my day. When we were learning about the complexity of hereditary and chromosomes passed down and mutation rates. She's intersex not trans. People like to make simple and basic categories in life unfortunately nature isn't a orderly thing. It is a functional chaos. It's hilarious seeing so many people suddenly claim being born with female genitals doesn't make her female. The irony here is amusing Also as someone who is not a big fan of sports. I never really understood why we still practice and allow the "sports." Of physical violence on one another. Then get surprise Pikachu when someone gets hurt. |
GrimAtramentAug 2, 2024 8:10 AM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
| On the one hand, yes, Khelif does have a physical advantage having higher levels of testosterone because of being intersex (how high the levels and how much advantage i don't know, but based on her pysical anatomy, she does have a very masculine build) But on the other, she has also been beaten by other biological women To have a comparison, i watched both the paris 2024 match vs Carini and the tokyo 2020 vs Harrington, and watching both matches, regardless of physical streanghnth, i'm gonna say, if Carini had been up against a biological woman with the same skill as Khelif, she would've still been hit in the face and lost the match, Khelif's punches might be harder than the avarege woman boxer, but the reality of the matter is Carini lost because her movements were too slow, and hey, she listened to her survival instincts, cuz a knock-out from Khelif who is biologially both male and female could've ended pretty bad But now compare the vs Carini match to the vs Harrington match, the quater-final in which Khelif lost, so if Khelif has such an advantage, how did she lose? Was it luck? No, it was Harrington's skills, the skills of being able to use not only physical streangth, but also strategy, speed and agility, the latter two which are a great advantade against an opponent physically stronger than you I'm not going to debate on how fair Khelif's participation is, after all this isn't a case of a biological male transitioning, but someone who was born with both, i can only base it on the fact she is proven to be not impossible to beat |
DigiCatAug 6, 2024 2:22 PM
Reply to GrimAtrament
@MalchikRepaid
@Fate_Saber88
Wait wait wait do y'all really not know what intersex is?! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development
Geez that was like biology 101 back in my day. When we were learning about the complexity of hereditary and chromosomes passed down and mutation rates.
She's intersex not trans.
People like to make simple and basic categories in life unfortunately nature isn't a orderly thing. It is a functional chaos.
It's hilarious seeing so many people suddenly claim being born with female genitals doesn't make her female. The irony here is amusing
Also as someone who is not a big fan of sports. I never really understood why we still practice and allow the "sports." Of physical violence on one another. Then get surprise Pikachu when someone gets hurt.
@Fate_Saber88
Wait wait wait do y'all really not know what intersex is?! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development
Geez that was like biology 101 back in my day. When we were learning about the complexity of hereditary and chromosomes passed down and mutation rates.
She's intersex not trans.
People like to make simple and basic categories in life unfortunately nature isn't a orderly thing. It is a functional chaos.
It's hilarious seeing so many people suddenly claim being born with female genitals doesn't make her female. The irony here is amusing
Also as someone who is not a big fan of sports. I never really understood why we still practice and allow the "sports." Of physical violence on one another. Then get surprise Pikachu when someone gets hurt.
| @GrimAtrament Humans are naturally barbaric and violent, especially men. Sports, especially combative ones are a way for us to vent in this modernized world. They're also a massive part of our history, go look at the Greek Olympics in ancient times and pankration. |
''Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good.'' |
| Something like this has happened multiple times before. @GrimAtrament @DigiCat Females have more testosterone than estrogen like males do. Having higher testosterone levels than some females doesnt mean a female is intersexed necessarily. Some intersexed conditions are only one cause among several. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Reply to deg
@DigiCat genetic enhancements will solve obesity too plus there is already proven anti obesity drugs today the glp-1 drugs
| @deg You say before ban sports cuz superhumans will be the norm, yet don't stop to think that if superhumans are the norm it means most humans are superhumans and superhumans will be competing fairly against eachother in sporst And no amount of drugs can substitute physical activity, there's no world i which steroids and ozempic are healthier than physical activity |
Reply to deg
@DigiCat they are researching exercise pills there is no reason for chemicals in the body to not be manipulated in a way that copies physical activity after all when you do exercise you release chemicals and do chemical reactions in your body anyway
also superhumanity will be an arms race so its not gonna be fair for sports
also superhumanity will be an arms race so its not gonna be fair for sports
| @deg You can have all the pills you want, and they can even work very well, that does not make them healthy |
Reply to deg
@DigiCat are you those people that says natural is always good? that is a naturalistic fallacy or even appeal to nature
agriculture is all about artificial selection for hundreds of years now and not about natural selection for example
medicines for the most part are artificial too but they extend the human life span a lot more than natural remedies
anyway i remember youre a science denier so not gonna bother more
agriculture is all about artificial selection for hundreds of years now and not about natural selection for example
medicines for the most part are artificial too but they extend the human life span a lot more than natural remedies
anyway i remember youre a science denier so not gonna bother more
| @deg There is a difference between say weight loss medication and antibiotics, one is curing an ilness, one is substituting something that should be done naturally And i'll add, yes, if you have the immune system to get better from something minor, like say a cold, naturally, without pumping your body with asprins and cough syrup and who knows what else, then yes having the ability to do so naturally is healthier than taking pills for it, i'm aware though that not everyone can do so Still very different from trying to use a cheat code to get away with an unhealthy lifestyle The only time i will excuse using weight loss meds is if you have a medical condition that makes it physically impossible to lose weigh |
| It seems impossible to find reliable information about this athlete... https://reduxx.info/international-olympic-committee-was-warned-about-male-boxers-world-boxing-organization-vice-president-says/ Also the title of this article is quite misleading: "I want to apologise to Khelif - Italian boxer Carini" https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o Carini later told BBC Sport: "It could have been the match of a lifetime, but I had to preserve my life as well in that moment." In other words, she only wanted to apologise for her unsportsmanlike behaviour, and not for what her declarations implied about the Algerian boxer... Fate_Saber88 said: whether she is juiced up is another history. She looks like a female CrossFit competitor... |
MeusnierAug 4, 2024 5:11 AM
| The worst and funniest part of this, is the wokeservatives attempting to vilify a biological female as if she was a "man". They're the definition of cowards. |
FragMentizedAug 5, 2024 7:23 PM
| Today they say you're crazy, tomorrow they will say you're a genious. |
Reply to FragMentized
The worst and funniest part of this, is the wokeservatives attempting to vilify a biological female as if she was a "man". They're the definition of cowards.
| @FragMentized honestly its more hilarious and sad in an ironic way then anything else all of a sudden having female genitals doesn't make someone feel male according to conservatives. Now suddenly conservatives believe in trans identity all because a woman who grew up selling scrap metal. Beat a police officers daughter. Which just tells me that they don't actually believe the own arguments against trans because they are willing to flip flop on it for their own convince. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Reply to Nutella71
DigiCat said:
On the one hand, yes, Khelif does have a physical advantage having higher levels of testosterone because of being intersex (how high the levels and how much advantage i don't know, but based on her pysical anatomy, she does have a very masculine build)
If athletes are tested on a regular basis for drugs and hormones, how come she was allowed to compete and even loose several times for years prior to this? I doubt her levels spiked just in time her chromosomes were found.On the one hand, yes, Khelif does have a physical advantage having higher levels of testosterone because of being intersex (how high the levels and how much advantage i don't know, but based on her pysical anatomy, she does have a very masculine build)
| @Nutella71 You would've got your answer to that if you quoted my next line too, well part of it at least, i don't know how different sports competitions decide on their regulations, all i can say is i guess world championship committee and olimpic committee have different opinions on the matter |
Reply to deg
@DigiCat genetic enhancements will solve obesity too plus there is already proven anti obesity drugs today the glp-1 drugs
| @deg There is NOTHING to be solved about obesity with genetic engineering. That's a matter of food. You can't solve a problem that requires common sense by throwing technology at it. |
Reply to deg
@JaniSIr glp-1 drugs already lessens hunger so genetic editing will do it permanently
| @deg You know that hunger is a good thing, right? It signals that you are supposed to eat, because you need food to survive. There is a lot of issues with modern food supply, but the solution is fixing that and NOT breaking your body even further. Hopefully somebody will figure out how to hold big food accountable, but until then, you should have some willpower to eat healthy and exercise a little. |
Reply to deg
@JaniSIr would you rather i say food addiction then? because glp-1 drugs treats addiction
| @deg If I understand it correctly what it actually does is it basically introduces synthetic version of the hormone that's responsible for feeling satiated, so it suppresses hunger cues, so people quickly lose a lot of weight because they are not eating anything. And as a potential side effect of long term use, your body might just stop producing that hormone, since there is plenty in your blood stream, similarly how testosterone abuser bodybuilder's balls shrink. So with that you are essentially a life long consumer, because without it you'll be forever hungry no matter how much you eat. Also since apparently many people use food as a coping mechanism, they might just move onto another self destructive habit... So it's kind of not ideal no matter how you look at it. |
deg said: too much hunger causes overeating A lack of willpower you mean. A lot of people who struggle to control their weight simply never feel hungry; they keep eating all the time, or cannot control themselves when they feel slightly hungry... |
Reply to deg
@JaniSIr those are not big problems as long as its in moderation or normalize levels and that is the thing it brings back normal eating habits
| @deg Yea right, of all the people the ones who needed a drug induced starvation to lose weight will be the one to stick to a lifestyle change... Medicine is not all bad, if you have type 1 diabetes you need insulin, you can't consciously control that. But your weight you can. You can't just mess with your hormones to fix a lifestyle issue. There is that weight loss surgery when they make your stomach smaller, dedicated food addicts managed to eat around that and gain the weight back. |
Okay and? Hunger is just a signal, you do not have to listen to it. |
deg said: @JaniSIr addiction is a disease dude so food addiction is not simply about willpower and discipline Addiction to corn syrup and trans fat may be a thing, but addiction to plain rice and broccoli is unheard of... You don't need drugs to lose weight, you have to change your diet drastically. There are no withdrawal effects if you stop eating junk food. |
It is not comparable to alcohol and other drugs, come on... Didn't you say that medicine had made you gain weight by the way? |
Reply to deg
@JaniSIr addiction is a disease dude so food addiction is not simply about willpower and discipline
| @deg Calling it a disease sounds like an excuse to absolve you of taking responsibility for your bad choices, and a justification for big pharma to sell hormonal treatment for a self destructive lifestyle. |
Reply to deg
Meusnier said:
You don't need drugs to lose weight, you have to change your diet drastically. There are no withdrawal effects if you stop eating junk food.
You don't need drugs to lose weight, you have to change your diet drastically. There are no withdrawal effects if you stop eating junk food.
easier said than done if that is the case there will be no obesity epidemic going on
| @deg Nobody said it's easy, but most things worth doing aren't. People just have little willpower, no education in diet science, and there are plenty of people with no morals who are perfectly okay with abusing that. |
deg said: Meusnier said: You don't need drugs to lose weight, you have to change your diet drastically. There are no withdrawal effects if you stop eating junk food. easier said than done if that is the case there will be no obesity epidemic going on This is a fake epidemic caused by the low quality of food, and the harmful life habits of city dwellers. Take America for example. It is well known that they add sugar to every product (you really have to hunt for "unsweetened" items when you shop there, even in supermarkets that have a good reputation), and the omnipresence of fast food "restaurants" makes it very easy to consume ridiculous amounts of calories in a single meal (you would be unable to eat the equivalent in chicken breasts and rice). Furthermore, Americans barely walk and use their cars for everything, so they get very little exercise and eat more calories than a sailor. The result is obvious. On the other hand, things are much better in Paris, and even better in Tokyo, since the food is of a much better quality (many American products are illegal in Europe for example) and people are used to walk a lot. In normal countries, staying relatively fit does not take special efforts. So yes, it is easy to stay in shape actually. And please do not bring the false counter-argument of people who gain weight due to a health condition... Which means that you personal example does not prove your point... deg said: is willpower unlimited btw like in anime? you do not know what addiction feels like then It is actually. https://www.koha.net/en/lemsh/95261/ne-islande-agjerohet-per-20-22-ore-te-dites |
MeusnierAug 9, 2024 3:21 PM
| @deg How is it relevant to this thread? And please do not bring the false counter-argument of people who gain weight due to a health condition... |
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