| According to wiki, reading disorder affects 3–7% of the population and up to 20% of the general population may have some degree of symptoms. I remember there was a poll about sub vs dub and around 20% preferred dub, so it kind of aligns with dyslexia numbers. For example, English isn't my native language but even for someone like me a glance is enough to read the whole line, how come English-speaking people complain subs distract them from what's happening on screen and such? |
| how can they download the anime if they can't read? |
    |
| Some dub watchers are slow readers, some want anime in background and some just find sub cringy at times(me) |
 |
| I have some friends who just like to listen to anime in the background while doing other things; not everyone wants to keep glued to the screen just to read subtitles and it's fair |
 "Only one with the courage to shoulder the burden of their own fate can be called a hero.." |
| No, but people that watch subs do so because they suffer from hearing loss |
| people have a variety of reasons why they might choose to watch dubs over subs. medical issues are one of those reasons. this is why it's best to avoid berating others for their language preferences; frankly, it's none of your business. |
| Nice bait thread. Alot of people just prefer to watch something in their natural language. Not to mention they might want to do something else while they listen to it. |
| Nah we're just illiterate and thus unable to comprehend written words |
-Shizuna- said: According to wiki, reading disorder affects 3–7% of the population and up to 20% of the general population may have some degree of symptoms. I remember there was a poll about sub vs dub and around 20% preferred dub, so it kind of aligns with dyslexia numbers. For example, English isn't my native language but even for someone like me a glance is enough to read the whole line, how come English-speaking people complain subs distract them from what's happening on screen and such? I don't think people who watch Dubbed anime has anything to specifically do with dyslexia. There could be many reasons why people watch dubs. The casual viewer will simply just catch what ever is airing on TV. Most of the time it's automatically dubbed for western consumption. Some people spend all day using their eyes sitting in front of a computer screen or doing paper work and when it comes to escapism they simply just wish to unwind and relax and turn off their brain when it comes to consuming their Anime. It is after all escapism. If I can help it, I will never watch Anime with subtitles on because for me it just obstructs up to a quarter of the screen averting from the actual animation. But I am rare western viewer who can actually understand Japanese when it's spoken. So it's not like I need subtitles on in the 1st place. Currently the only time I will watch Anime dubbed is when I am watching it with friends or other people. even though there are a couple of reasons that I won't really get into, the main reason is because watching Anime with other people is a social event. When it comes to Anime and others don't understand Japanese they would be forced to keep their eyes on the screen to catch the subtitles over any social interaction which would defeat the purpose of even watching something together in the 1st place. |
ColourWheelOct 3, 2022 7:48 AM
komic said: I suppose I should be glad nothing gets localized to my own language or else I'd suffer the same fate.Nice bait thread. Alot of people just prefer to watch something in their natural language. Not to mention they might want to do something else while they listen to it. |
| Sub can be a bit annoying at times I'm not gonna lie but I will NEVER STOOP LOW ENOUGH TO WATCH IN DUB thank you for listening! all jokes though there's nothing wrong with dub |
| Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember her, you are not alone. |
| Between the choice of a language I don't understand and a language I understand I'll generally lean towards hamburgers and mcdonalds However I still usually google which one people prefer and go with that I think I'm decent to good at english but i'm not canadian or anything so while I do sometimes find it a bit weird it mostly passes my standards If it doesn't have a dub yet i do the sub, if it's a new season to a show i watched dubbed I wait, if it's been to long i just watch subbed I intend to watch Mob Psycho subbed unlike previous seasons because of the changed actor for Mob (And also Reigen is a sex offender or something but I can ignore that if new developments arise) Probably don't have dyslexia, i can read just fine Also:   |
NotAnApartmentOct 3, 2022 7:30 AM
| No, but people who watch only subs suffer from a terminal case of 'Weeb-itis.' Symptoms include an unhealthy obsession with Japanese culture, an aversion to their native language in favor of Japanese, the mistaken belief that Japanese VAs somehow 'sound more pure,' a compulsive desire to add words like 'kawaii' or 'desu' to sentences, a lack of concern for personal hygiene, the ability to trigger instant revulsion in members of the opposite sex, and anal seepage. |
| If you disagree with any thoughts or opinions expressed in the above post, you're wrong and I hate you forever! |
NotAnApartment said: Between the choice of a language I don't understand and a language I understand I'll generally lean towards hamburgers and mcdonalds However I still usually google which one people prefer and go with that I think I'm decent to good at english but i'm not canadian or anything so while I do sometimes find it a bit weird it mostly passes my standards If it doesn't have a dub yet i do the sub, if it's a new season to a show i watched dubbed I wait, if it's been to long i just watch subbed I intend to watch Mob Psycho subbed unlike previous seasons because of the changed actor for Mob (And also Reigen is a sex offender or something but I can ignore that if new developments arise) Probably don't have dyslexia, i can read just fine Also: The fact that mozzarella consumption randomly spiked in 2007 before returning to a normal level has me asking questions I never thought I would be asking in my life... |
| If you disagree with any thoughts or opinions expressed in the above post, you're wrong and I hate you forever! |
| @THE-Black-Mage Good thing I also watch raw sometimes. Girigiri safe! |
| they just suffer from laziness or don't have the ability to read subtitles and watch something at the same time. or they are ignorant beings who don't understand that all video media should be consumed in its original audio with subtitles for the optimal experience. a lot is lost in dub for not only animes but normal TV shows as well. sure exceptions exist but they are rare. |
 The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
TsutanaiFuun said: they just suffer from laziness or don't have the ability to read subtitles and watch something at the same time. or they are ignorant beings who don't understand that all video media should be consumed in its original audio with subtitles for the optimal experience. a lot is lost in dub for not only animes but normal TV shows as well. sure exceptions exist but they are rare. How To Be Wrong In Every Conceivable Way, Yet Not Realize How Horribly Wrong You Are by TsutanaFuun |
| If you disagree with any thoughts or opinions expressed in the above post, you're wrong and I hate you forever! |
| It's a very simple concept, science even, you understand things faster and more efficiently by sound, when you read subtitles, your brain has to take just that extra millisecond to process the information, taking that attention away from whatever is happening onscreen, it's a minuscule amount of time, but it does add up. No matter how fast you read, your brain comprehends sound faster, no arguing that. |
| Subs are distracting if you don't watch enough to get completely used to them, a lot of English speaking people likely have limited experience with subtitles when it comes to any other form of programming. There's no good reason it has to have anything to do with dyslexia. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
TsutanaiFuun said: That's a pretty terrible opinion when you consider how much information from the original audio is actually absent in said subtitles. they just suffer from laziness or don't have the ability to read subtitles and watch something at the same time. or they are ignorant beings who don't understand that all video media should be consumed in its original audio with subtitles for the optimal experience. a lot is lost in dub for not only animes but normal TV shows as well. sure exceptions exist but they are rare. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| This clip explains a lot: The quality of both voice actors' performances is exactly the same. You only notice one of them being dogshit because the language barrier is preventing you from noticing that the other is dogshit, too. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
| Dub watchers are more like 80-90% of (non-Japanese) people but they don't have the urge to keep telling everyone how they watch their Chinese cartoons unlike sub watchers. So unless 80-90% of the population has dyslexia I kinda doubt your statement is any true. |
LostSpectre said: it's more about the feel you get with the original audio and less about the meaning. that was how the show was produced and meant to enjoy. the japanese voice actors were chosen based on the japanese character's looks, personality and design so the jap VAs are the best suited for those characters. for me when i hear the voice of an anime character it's like yes it's their voice and in english it just doesn't hit the same. but you can say "that's because you heard the japanese audio first" but no, recently i watched C Danchi, it's a new anime but it's only available in dub, when I was watching it i felt like something was missing, the voices didn't hit and feel the same. you look at a character and you are like "no that's not how they should sound". i don't understand how anyone can feel like english voice can suit an anime character who is japanese. and i undertand the whole meaning of original audio is hard to convey through subtitles but i'm talking about the voices feeling right and suiting the characters rather than the whole meaning, whatever subs we get are enough to understand what's being said almost all the time.TsutanaiFuun said: That's a pretty terrible opinion when you consider how much information from the original audio is actually absent in said subtitles. they just suffer from laziness or don't have the ability to read subtitles and watch something at the same time. or they are ignorant beings who don't understand that all video media should be consumed in its original audio with subtitles for the optimal experience. a lot is lost in dub for not only animes but normal TV shows as well. sure exceptions exist but they are rare. THE-Black-Mage said: correct me then. i'm not opposed to learning something i wasn't aware of. TsutanaiFuun said: they just suffer from laziness or don't have the ability to read subtitles and watch something at the same time. or they are ignorant beings who don't understand that all video media should be consumed in its original audio with subtitles for the optimal experience. a lot is lost in dub for not only animes but normal TV shows as well. sure exceptions exist but they are rare. How To Be Wrong In Every Conceivable Way, Yet Not Realize How Horribly Wrong You Are by TsutanaFuun |
The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
TsutanaiFuun said: LostSpectre said: it's more about the feel you get with the original audio and less about the meaning. that was how the show was produced and meant to enjoy. the japanese voice actors were chosen based on the japanese character's looks, personality and design so the jap VAs are the best suited for those characters. for me when i hear the voice of an anime character it's like yes it's their voice and in english it just doesn't hit the same. but you can say "that's because you heard the japanese audio first" but no, recently i watched C Danchi, it's a new anime but it's only available in dub, when I was watching it i felt like something was missing, the voices didn't hit and feel the same. you look at a character and you are like "no that's not how they should sound". i don't understand how anyone can feel like english voice can suit an anime character who is japanese. and i undertand the whole meaning of original audio is hard to convey through subtitles but i'm talking about the voices feeling right and suiting the characters rather than the whole meaning, whatever subs we get are enough to understand what's being said almost all the time.That's a pretty terrible opinion when you consider how much information from the original audio is actually absent in said subtitles. THE-Black-Mage said: correct me then. i'm not opposed to learning something i wasn't aware of. How To Be Wrong In Every Conceivable Way, Yet Not Realize How Horribly Wrong You Are by TsutanaFuun Just to be clear, I am not having a go at you specifically but if you want to talk about true laziness... The optimal experience would be to learn Japanese instead of relying on loosely translated subtitles in the 1st place if someone is so anal about having Japanese VAs to listen to. |
| @TsutanaiFuun It isn't noteworthy that JP voices will "feel" better when it's a foreign language, especially if you're a complete weeb. You also have to get used to dubs the same as someone would have to get used to subtitles in the first place. If it feels off that an anime character even speaks in English, that's a clear sign you have not gotten used to them. If you agree with most commonly held opinions about great dubbed shows, but are very picky when it comes to the "right" sounding voices, that would be a separate issue, but I'm not sure I get that impression from you. Personally, I think it's absurd to dismiss the quality of subtitles outright, but if it's no concern to you, then so be it. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| No, i prefer dub because it's easier for me to absorb information if i hear it vs. reading it. Plus it lets me focus on the art and animation. |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. |
| There's nothing wrong with anyones style of watching anime. Be it out of need or out of preference. And to the guy who calls sub lovers weebs. yyes. proud fucking weeb. Fuq it and fuq the haters. I'll watch a dub if i like an anime enough and want to watch it twice. just to peep it out. that's a real anime otaku NEway. :3 go go go go weeb nation~ |
 |
ColourWheel said: technically, learning a whole new language which is deemed as one of the hardest languages to learn is the least optimal way to watch anime i can think of. but for a japanese person that of course is the most optimal experience. TsutanaiFuun said: it's more about the feel you get with the original audio and less about the meaning. that was how the show was produced and meant to enjoy. the japanese voice actors were chosen based on the japanese character's looks, personality and design so the jap VAs are the best suited for those characters. for me when i hear the voice of an anime character it's like yes it's their voice and in english it just doesn't hit the same. but you can say "that's because you heard the japanese audio first" but no, recently i watched C Danchi, it's a new anime but it's only available in dub, when I was watching it i felt like something was missing, the voices didn't hit and feel the same. you look at a character and you are like "no that's not how they should sound". i don't understand how anyone can feel like english voice can suit an anime character who is japanese. and i undertand the whole meaning of original audio is hard to convey through subtitles but i'm talking about the voices feeling right and suiting the characters rather than the whole meaning, whatever subs we get are enough to understand what's being said almost all the time. correct me then. i'm not opposed to learning something i wasn't aware of. Just to be clear, I am not having a go at you specifically but if you want to talk about true laziness... The optimal experience would be to learn Japanese instead of relying on loosely translated subtitles in the 1st place if someone is so anal about having Japanese VAs to listen to. japanese VAs for japanese characters, am i wrong for not liking to see a clearly japanese person speaking english? to better explain my point you should watch the video linked above by Zelkiiro https://youtu.be/EtzlKJ1dObU. i'm talking about the voices and the characters matching and sounding right. |
The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
LostSpectre said: i can understand the getting used to part. maybe if someone is watching dub from the start, dub will sound and feel right to them. but my point is the voice suiting the appearance of characters. most dub voices don't feel "right" on these japanese characters. there of course are some dubs which i think suit the japanese characters too.@TsutanaiFuun It isn't noteworthy that JP voices will "feel" better when it's a foreign language, especially if you're a complete weeb. You also have to get used to dubs the same as someone would have to get used to subtitles in the first place. If it feels off that an anime character even speaks in English, that's a clear sign you have not gotten used to them. If you agree with most commonly held opinions about great dubbed shows, but are very picky when it comes to the "right" sounding voices, that would be a separate issue, but I'm not sure I get that impression from you. Personally, I think it's absurd to dismiss the quality of subtitles outright, but if it's no concern to you, then so be it. i didn't mean to dismiss the quality of subs, i just meant that there isn't much a non-japanese person can do regarding that. you will have to suffice with the official subs or sometimes go with fan subs. in dubs though you get the full meaning of what's being said but the dubs aren't the literal translation of the japanese script, a new english script is produced from the translation of the japanese script and the english script is tinkered to fit the same amount of time it took for the japanese dailogue to finish etc., i just think that sometimes meaning can be lost. the original meaning, emotion what the director might want to covey through the japanese script can be lost in the english translation due to various reasons. that's where my feeling of "feeling right" comes from. the japanese audio just sounds natural to me, maybe its because i'm watching sub since the beginning but that's how i feel. |
The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
TsutanaiFuun said: Yet, it isn't less optimal just because it would be difficult for you to accomplish, it's still the best anime viewing experience possible. technically, learning a whole new language which is deemed as one of the hardest languages to learn is the least optimal way to watch anime i can think of. but for a japanese person that of course is the most optimal experience. japanese VAs for japanese characters, am i wrong for not liking to see a clearly japanese person speaking english? to better explain my point you should watch the video linked above by Zelkiiro https://youtu.be/EtzlKJ1dObU. i'm talking about the voices and the characters matching and sounding right. As for the second part, I'd love to know how an anime character is "a clearly Japanese person" because I've never had that impression. lol |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
LostSpectre said: it is the best viewing experience for a person who knows japanese. for non-japanese (like most people) it's not optimal at all.TsutanaiFuun said: Yet, it isn't less optimal just because it would be difficult for you to accomplish, it's still the best anime viewing experience possible. technically, learning a whole new language which is deemed as one of the hardest languages to learn is the least optimal way to watch anime i can think of. but for a japanese person that of course is the most optimal experience. japanese VAs for japanese characters, am i wrong for not liking to see a clearly japanese person speaking english? to better explain my point you should watch the video linked above by Zelkiiro https://youtu.be/EtzlKJ1dObU. i'm talking about the voices and the characters matching and sounding right. As for the second part, I'd love to know how an anime character is "a clearly Japanese person" because I've never had that impression. lol isn't that how it is most of the time? even if the characters aren't japanese like for example in vinland saga, the voices are made to match the character as much as possible.i didn't mean to generalise that all anime characters look japanese, i will rather generalise it as the voice should match the character's personality, design and looks like i said 2 or 3 posts back. english voices just don't suit most anime characters or one can also say not much effort was put into casting english VAs for the dub. i'm not a dub hater, i can appreciate a good dub. |
The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
| @TsutanaiFuun Honestly, I think you're too biased towards subbed anime to have any impartial opinion on the subject, this whole convo is just pointless. lol |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
LostSpectre said: i can't understand even a little bit how you got that conclusion from my posts but well@TsutanaiFuun Honestly, I think you're too biased towards subbed anime to have any impartial opinion on the subject, this whole convo is just pointless. lol |
The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
| Probably not? just a matter of preference I guess. I'm a slow reader. It takes me more than 30-40 mins to finish a 20 mins ep. but I'd prefer that than lose interest by watching dub. I tried watching dub, but I just don't like it. Japanese VA's are a tier above dubbers IMO. Also, I can comprehend the story and the happenings better by reading subs. As for missing out on animation every now and then, there's the replay button for that. |
| Not really it's just I didn't get full enjoyment while watching something in sub I just want to relax and watch something didn't like to read while watching anime. I haveI watch 75% of the anime in dub and rest in sub (Most probably those which aren't available in dub) |
ZXEANOct 3, 2022 11:17 AM
| The only anime better in dub is Dragon Ball Z |
| Hey man that was a lucky guess I have watched about 50% of my shows subbed and can usually keep up just fine so it's not like its a big hinderance. I also read frequently so it's not like I don't enjoy it or cannot do it. I like dubs because they are easier to sit back and relax to. You can look away or pay more attention to the animation. I'm ethnically Japanese too so I don't really feel like I am missing out on the "cultural" aspects of subs either. For people with more severe dyslexia or those with other impairments I do think a Dub would be a better option. I don't really think you should be insulting all dub watchers as being disabled in some way though. Like just let people watch whatever they want, who cares? |
-insert NGE meme here- |
| I believe it may be a habit from when the person was a child that wasn't left behind when they got older. Which is not a bad thing, it's more in the sense that the person is very used to seeing it dubbed that he doesn't want to see it subtitled. |
| Dub watchers are just casual anime fans. They aren't that serious about it. They will often have it playing in the background or something, so they need a dub. Watching with subs would mean they actually have to pay attention. |
| I watch dub with subtitles, and most of what I get is from reading. I just find no reason to listen to the actors in Japanese, and if ever there's something else I need to do, I don't need to pause the show. Or, in other words, I do not have dyslexia and still do watch dub. |
| Your question might be stupid and based on bad statistics and understanding of the methods to draw such conclusions, but yeah obviously if you suffer from dyslexia you're more likely to prefer watching a show without subtitles. That is by in far not even close to the main reason people do though. If that was the main driver then there would be way less dubs as there wouldn't be enough anime fans to support how large the dub industry is in the US these days. Being newer to anime, being more casual, enjoying animation with complete focus on what's on the screen, actually liking the dubbed acting, are all more likely reasons people watch dubs. |
| I like both. but if the dub is good, I'll pick it over the sub because: 1. I have adhd so unless i'm super invested, it can be hard to pay attention. specially when binging. 2. it's less tiring, and makes me want to watch for longer. 3. I can use my brain power on other elements more. 4. I won't miss anything by looking away for 2 seconds. 5. I can appreciate good voice acting more when it's in dub. 6. jokes are just way funnier when you hear them 7. I love (good) localization. steins;gate is a perfect example of a show that did it masterfully. |
| Also available at: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Why You Should Watch Akudama Drive: https://youtu.be/Yw0r52wRjgA An AMV I that I spend way too much time on: A Love Letter To Anime「AMV」: https://youtu.be/YQyqxFM2m9Q My referral code to a website/app that gives you free money (a few cents a day) by using a few megabytes of your internet for file sharing. We both get a bonus if you use my link: https://r.honeygain.me/ARSHIA7942 |
Saku_k said: Dub watchers are just casual anime fans. They aren't that serious about it. They will often have it playing in the background or something, so they need a dub. Watching with subs would mean they actually have to pay attention. I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you |
| Also available at: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Why You Should Watch Akudama Drive: https://youtu.be/Yw0r52wRjgA An AMV I that I spend way too much time on: A Love Letter To Anime「AMV」: https://youtu.be/YQyqxFM2m9Q My referral code to a website/app that gives you free money (a few cents a day) by using a few megabytes of your internet for file sharing. We both get a bonus if you use my link: https://r.honeygain.me/ARSHIA7942 |
-Shizuna- said: komic said: I suppose I should be glad nothing gets localized to my own language or else I'd suffer the same fate.Nice bait thread. Alot of people just prefer to watch something in their natural language. Not to mention they might want to do something else while they listen to it. I watch anime in English, as nothing is localized in my language either. Well, almost nothing, Death Note, Perfect Blue and some kids shows like Yugioh got dubs, but of course I'd watch nothing of that nature. |
 |
Apolygon2 said: Saku_k said: Dub watchers are just casual anime fans. They aren't that serious about it. They will often have it playing in the background or something, so they need a dub. Watching with subs would mean they actually have to pay attention. I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you What do you mean? You literally said in your previous post that it is hard to pay attention. |
TsutanaiFuun said: LostSpectre said: it's more about the feel you get with the original audio and less about the meaning. that was how the show was produced and meant to enjoy. the japanese voice actors were chosen based on the japanese character's looks, personality and design so the jap VAs are the best suited for those characters. for me when i hear the voice of an anime character it's like yes it's their voice and in english it just doesn't hit the same. but you can say "that's because you heard the japanese audio first" but no, recently i watched C Danchi, it's a new anime but it's only available in dub, when I was watching it i felt like something was missing, the voices didn't hit and feel the same. you look at a character and you are like "no that's not how they should sound". i don't understand how anyone can feel like english voice can suit an anime character who is japanese. and i undertand the whole meaning of original audio is hard to convey through subtitles but i'm talking about the voices feeling right and suiting the characters rather than the whole meaning, whatever subs we get are enough to understand what's being said almost all the time.That's a pretty terrible opinion when you consider how much information from the original audio is actually absent in said subtitles. You say that like it wasn't the exact same process on the dubbing side... And really, the biggest issue with Japanese voice acting is that they exaggerate everything. Some people call it monotone, but the emotional tone not being beaten into you is a good thing really. It's nice when a piece of work treats the viewer with enough respect to assume they'll pay attention to pick up on subtle cues. |
|
| I bet I can read better and quicker than OP and that I've read way more in my life than they have but I still prefer dub these days because I'm lazy and it's more relaxing not to have to worry about subs. It also makes multitasking while watching anime much easier. Decent troll attempt tho, 6/10. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
More topics from this board
» Have you ever felt so satisfied after finishing certain anime that you don't even want its sequel?Rinrinka - Apr 12 |
39 |
by bucciest
»»
4 seconds ago |
|
» Do i have to put a show i ranked 10/10 in my favorites?FarWalker - Apr 22 |
40 |
by bucciest
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
» Is there hope for classic super robots?Timeline_man - 2 hours ago |
4 |
by Ex-Aid
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
» Is watching a show for the cute girl weird?fallout45 - 37 minutes ago |
9 |
by Ex-Aid
»»
5 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Which is your favourite Anime in this list?PushedCaraway - 5 hours ago |
20 |
by luckyrune
»»
8 minutes ago |