Why is the ending so hated?

Apr 22, 2021 8:01 AM

Offline

Feb 2017

1031

chapter 124 or the start of the cringevenger to 138 is full of asspull bullshit that wasnt in this manga before, the character become a fucking joke full inconsistency, some character arc and character closure is terrible.

MAL score and most user-based rating system are all joke, Imagine trusting plebs and hivemind. Find users who have good sense and rating and use them as a reference. Check my guide to rate
Your taste is trash. Cope, seethe, mald

Apr 23, 2021 9:02 AM

#52

MeguuRE

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Apr 2020

23

Satoya said:

MeguuRE said:

true but lelouch didnt simp unlike what eren did on mikasa thats what most people think that destroyed his character that was build up for so long and who really ymir is lacked explanation on isayama's part and its absolutely bs to think that ymir was actually inlove with the king but this ending who everyone was expecting a 9/10 or 10/10 took a drop and in my opinion a 6 or 7

1. People are not mad Eren died
2. The ending just doesnt fit
3. Its written horrificly bad

lol I'm not saying that ppl are mad that Eren died infact I think everyone was expecting that, ppl were mad because his character was destroyed because he simped for Mikasa all along which is pretty BS too for me

Apr 24, 2021 4:13 AM

#53

Peeti

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Sep 2019

2144

deg said:
Eren is not a Chad all along (crying)

don't lie. You thought that as well.

"I think I wanted to attack something. Like betraying people or hurting people. And, well, it's not exactly nice, but hurting the readers too... In all honestly, I feel that's what I really wanted to do. For me, as a reader, when I think, "this manga will remain in my heart," it means, for example, it phenomenally hurt me: It's those kinds of experiences I'm after." - Pajime Hisayama (My favourite hurting author).

Apr 24, 2021 5:29 AM

#54

Yojouhan

Offline

Jun 2016

126

Because the western audience is so used to Reddit and memes that they thought they were reading a different story based on their theories. As you can see, the words "simp" and "chad" are brought up more often than valid arguments.

Apr 24, 2021 10:18 AM

#55

Leoradiuju2004

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Aug 2020

1138

Because the western audience is so used to Reddit and memes that they thought they were reading a different story based on their theories. As you can see, the words "simp" and "chad" are brought up more often than valid arguments.

eren is like the guy who can see different timelines in men in black 3 but made for shit

a wise user of MAL said:
Just to clarify, adaptations should absolutely stand on their own

Apr 24, 2021 10:35 AM

#56

abystoma2

Offline

Nov 2013

5462

Pecado_Carnal said:
- Retcons the entire story
- Does a 180 in everyone's personalities
- Terrible dialogue
- Leaves a lot of plots without proper conclusion
- Tries to do some stupid last minute plotwist and fails miserably
- Opens a million plotholes and contradictions
- Panders to the worst section of any fanbase
- Art is awful. Kid Eren in one of the first pages looks like a freaking alien.
- It's hot garbage

1/10 is too much for this crap, I will give it a 0 if I could.

None of the above is true tho lol.

You all need to watch Nami.

Apr 24, 2021 11:49 AM

#57

deg

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Jan 2009

92738

Peeti said:

deg said:
Eren is not a Chad all along (crying)

don't lie. You thought that as well.

what makes you think im lying? ever since this final arc started i hated Eren

Apr 24, 2021 12:26 PM

#58

MrBrawlz

Offline

Oct 2020

666

Shajedul_abir said:
The ending didn't bother me that much. Just want to know why people hate it so much , I might have missed something or is it just overhated and not that bad at all.

Becuase isayama became a shojo writer

@GangstaAkagi

# of bans: 4

@NoLiferSoul is an S+ tier MAL Staff member

@anime-prime and @AlexPaulLEWZ are S tier

Rest are mid

Apr 24, 2021 12:32 PM

#59

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564534

MrBrawlz said:

Shajedul_abir said:
The ending didn't bother me that much. Just want to know why people hate it so much , I might have missed something or is it just overhated and not that bad at all.

Becuase isayama became a shojo writer

@GangstaAkagi

Accurate, man wrote a better Shojo story then most Shojo writers in just 1 chapter.

Apr 24, 2021 1:12 PM

#60

sjruruchuchu

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Oct 2018

22

It was terrible and you know it. The last few chapters set up the climax to be a childish and naiive ending. It didn't matter how he handled it when it's some "come stop and save me from myself". The last chapter did a decent job trying to vindicate the position but it was a terrible corner they drove themselves into. They really should never have gotten off that island at all. The author had to do some weird expunging of his personal beliefs in the manga which made it veer off course. I don't mind some development in the manga of the author but it went from something really odd and destitute to a cringe, cliche manga ending with all the worst parts.

Apr 24, 2021 1:19 PM

#61

sjruruchuchu

Offline

Oct 2018

22

KneelBeforeMe said:

And wow the dialogue, Twilight levels of bad.

I think that's really what it boils down to for me. If the dialogue was great (and thus proper character development and, to a degree, plot development) then this wouldn't be a discussion. They 100% should've never gotten off the island.

Apr 24, 2021 3:34 PM

#62

JosephSaber40

Offline

Apr 2021

134

this is a full review and details why the ending sucks SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE FINAL CHAPTER

Eren Character assassination

Eren since the basement arc has undergone a radical change descending into the darkness and extremism, he experienced huge sadness and depression that led him into insanity upon knowing the horrible truth of this world and humanity outside the world wants to eradicate Paradise, furthermore he was even more shocked to know about Kyomi's 50 years plan and he must sacrifice Historia and her children to save Paradise, all that negativity led him to madness and killed his sense of righteousness.

after that we see his new cruel personality in action developing for S4 and over 40 chapters with extremely good writing, where he became an extremist seeking freedom for his People Eldia, and saving Historia no matter the costs.

all that is ruined in the ending by a pathetic plotting where Eren is reduced to a clown claiming he didn't truly believe in his actions all he did was to make his friends look heroes, and answered ( I don't know why) when Armin asked him why he wanted to destroy the earth, imagine the author telling us these answers after 11 years of publishing manga just shows how the ending was changed, that answer and Eren's dialogue with Armin completely undermines his character, Eren should be like Flock believing in his action a true villain until the very last breath of his, some claim the author tried to pull out a redemption for Eren but with Eren destroying 80% of the Earth you can't pull out a consistent redemption in one single chapter.

Eren also has some sense of nobility
we can see this in 130 when he told Historia about his desire to bear a child to continue living after his death all that is ruined by a coward who is afraid of death
in 138 he told Mikasa to accept his death and move on with her life all that is ruined by a selfish pathetic man who wanted Mikasa to live and die lonely thinking only of him really disgusting literally the worst panel in the ending

Eren from extremist who sought freedom by any means necessary was undermined to a clown, pathetic, coward and hypocrite with no principle who didn't accomplish anything

Historia and her baby are completely pointless in the story

Historia and her baby didn't have any heavy weight in the story, her baby is completely pointless, her secret meeting with Eren in chapter130 doesn't make any sense, why would Eren risk his life by telling Historia about his secret plans to destroy the world, if Historia leaked the info it would signal his demise, and what about the desire to bear a child it's debated whether it's Eren or Historia said that but it's meaningless now, some say Historia told Eren that to prevent the military from turning her into the beast titan, but that isn't true, Eren could just use Zeke's scream to control the military and prevent that without Historia having to bear a child since the military are injected with the spinal fluid.
did I forgot to mention that Historia fell in love with a man used to bully her in young that's complete nonsense, now ch130 is the biggest plot hole in the story

Poor writing and other character assassinations
after Eren's death comes the toxic part, everyone becomes a liar and a hypocrite, first Armin thanks Eren for becoming a murderer then pretends to be the hero who killed him really disgusting.
the alliance mourns Eren after their determination to kill him really disgusting
Reiner is very goofy after having suicidal thoughts is inconsistent
everyone becoming a hypocrite and a liar kills the meaning of the story it's good and bad guys each of them faithful and true to their character believing in their action is what makes a great story, and Eren never needed a redemption arc in the first place that ended up destroying his character he should have stayed the villain till the end just like Floch

also here comes the funny part How exactly Ymir loved her rapist who killed her parents burned down her village and cut out her tongue, that's really disgusting.

whole series is ruined

great previous scenes in the series are completely ruined by that poor writing and now it's completely irrelevant

Eren blaming Reiner for his mother's death in Marley now makes zero sense since Eren is the one who killed his mother

Eren confronting his friends with their critical flaws and how that endangers Eldia in ch112 during Eldia's darkest hours is ruined since Eren announced his obsession for Mikasa and his support for Armin's diplomacy plan

Eren freeing Ymir one of the best scenes in the mange is ruined since Mikasa is the one who freed Ymir and when Armin asked why the answer was only Ymir knows imagine an author writing manga for 11 years preparing for this answers to the fans !!

and lastly ch130 where Eren meets Historia secretly is ruined

the author dedicated two entire arcs one when the scouts were chasing Annie in the frost the other in the uprising arc to show that Eren's decision matters that he should believe in himself that he should take responsibility in his actions all that is ruined where Eren was Ymir's puppet having no opinion and will in what he was doing, following a predetermined path with no other choice or option where his choices no longer matter WTF.

yeah not only the ending was bad but it ruined the whole series over 40 chapters now are thrown out the window like they never happened

Stupid writing

right before Eren just completely died he took away Eldians' ability to turn into titans, so they left them in war facing the entire world (20% of the earth is still superior to Paradise) and took away their main ways of defending themselves, removing the titans powers doesn't make any sense since it only weakens Eldia why Eren would do something stupid like that, all the death and sacrifices that were made in the story including Eren's now mean nothing nothing got accomplished, and Eren gambling the future of Paradise on Armin's negotiation plan is a huge gamble without any titan powers as a backup plan, which contradicts his character in 133

Levi was saluting his dead comrades despite their deaths amounted to nothing what's worse, meters away Annie who killed half the scouts was happily reuniting with her father, completely stupid inconsistent scene.

also, the shiny white unkillable warm in 138 was killed instantly in 139 without any proper explanation how is that a good conclusion to that super nature being that didn't die the nuke explosion of Armin's colossus titan transformation?

also, there was no indication in the story that Eren loves Mikasas in fact her overprotective behavior was even insulting for Eren, in S1 he told Mikasa he isn't her little boy or child before scarring her in the face in his second titan transformation, Eren's obsession with Mikasa just came out of nowhere.

On Paradise, the Yeagerists repeated the quote (if we don't fight, we can't win fight fight) those phrases are known only to Eren and Mikasa those people shouldn't know any of that really pathetic and inconsistent scene.

Happy boring stupid ending

the happy ending where everyone survived and gets all they want is really boring and inconsistent doesn't fit the tragic theme of AOT, Mikasa gained Eren's love, the titanization from 138 has been undone, Gabi reunites with Falco, titan' powers are gone, and finally even Reiner is innocent of killing Carla

AOT has always been about sacrifices and compromising your own humane values in order to push against the flow of the corruption and cruelty of the world all that undermined to romance fan fiction where the alliance defeated the most powerful titan without a single scratch or lose, this is total the nonsense, some characters should have been killed during the final confrontation against the founding titan so the battle can be more realistic.

the author was trying to add a sad tone to the ending by the final scene where Mikasa mourns Eren's death, but actually compared to other theories where Mikasa was supposed to lose Eren to Historia and maybe even being killed by Eren she's damn lucky that it has come to this so the ending isn't dark enough

Isayama Lore

before I conclude this review, I would like to share some theories about Isayama.

The end was of course changed according to statements made by him he was trying to pull out a tragic shocking ending similar the movie the mist and wanted to shock the reader, but he stated he changed it.

analyzing the chapters, ch 1 foreshadowed Mikasa's dream in ch138 that means from the first chapter to 138 all that were part of his original vision to the series, the changes were applied on chapter 139 in the last moment without any build up or preparation not only that it retconned the entire story line throwing 50 chapters in the trash, that's why this ending feels incredibly out of place and poorly written

the quote of Armin(I didn't expect something that pathetic) indicates how the author is fully aware of how selfish Eren was at this moment that means the series was ruined on purpose, whoever wrote this chapter he wasn't an idiot writing recklessly he was a genius knowing exactly what he was doing, I believe Isayama ruined the ending on purpose to embarrass the editor, something is just vague about this horrible ending.

there are very high chances that the editor and the publisher have their hand on this mess.

what the true ending could have been

by analyzing the chapters Eren was indeed going to finish the rumbling killing his friends shocking Mikasa with his love for Historia before and maybe going as far as killing her, before reuniting with Historia and his child on paradise Island

of course, these events are shocking and horrific,, but they are consistent with the story narrative and more more epic and dark, happy endings are boring.

what's next

Isayama should listen to the negative reviews from the fans in the community work to bring his original dark vision of the ending to the lights by implementing a new ending in the anime, release a new canon like AOT the lost girls, announce 139 was an April Joke.

lessons learned

it doesn't matter how cruel, shocking, sad or tragic the story is as long as the writing is good and the story is consistent, you can do whatever you want to kill all the characters shock the readers etc.

but making happy ending at the cost of the consistency of the story is one big mistake not to mention happy endings are boring I prefer mixed type or tragic to be more realistic

thoughts on the series

after the series is ruined, I can no longer recommend AOT no matter how great it is, as long as the author and the editor continue to ignore the negative reception from fans and refuse to release a new ending

currently I'm waiting for Isayama's next interview to comment on the negative feedback from fans.

if the ending was good at least if they kept Eren's character I would've given the series 10/10 but now I give it 0/10

JosephSaber40Jul 3, 2021 12:32 PM

Apr 24, 2021 6:28 PM

#63

LordSozin

Offline

Jul 2019

4487

abystoma2 said:

Pecado_Carnal said:
- Retcons the entire story
- Does a 180 in everyone's personalities
- Terrible dialogue
- Leaves a lot of plots without proper conclusion
- Tries to do some stupid last minute plotwist and fails miserably
- Opens a million plotholes and contradictions
- Panders to the worst section of any fanbase
- Art is awful. Kid Eren in one of the first pages looks like a freaking alien.
- It's hot garbage

1/10 is too much for this crap, I will give it a 0 if I could.

None of the above is true tho lol.

It's true though. :/

-[ ~♫~ ll Credit ]-

Apr 24, 2021 7:23 PM

#64

Artifiyings

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Feb 2016

557

Because there a lack of explanation of what's going on so that leaves us with many unanswered questions that needed to be asked.

Everything is basically out of place and Eren who was once the best protagonists, suddenly become the worst protagonists due to character assassination.

Apr 25, 2021 1:34 AM

#65

abystoma2

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Nov 2013

5462

Artifiyings said:
Because there a lack of explanation of what's going on so that leaves us with many unanswered questions that needed to be asked.

Everything is basically out of place and Eren who was once the best protagonists, suddenly become the worst protagonists due to character assassination.

There was no character assasination, it fits perfectly well with Eren's character, who ya all have forgotten is still just an angsty teen. You were just too influenced by "EREN CHAD, EREN CHAD!" memes.

And what questions were left unanswered?

You all need to watch Nami.

Apr 25, 2021 8:13 AM

#66

removed-user

Offline

Jul 2018

564534

abystoma2 said:

Artifiyings said:
Because there a lack of explanation of what's going on so that leaves us with many unanswered questions that needed to be asked.

Everything is basically out of place and Eren who was once the best protagonists, suddenly become the worst protagonists due to character assassination.

There was no character assasination, it fits perfectly well with Eren's character, who ya all have forgotten is still just an angsty teen. You were just too influenced by "EREN CHAD, EREN CHAD!" memes.

And what questions were left unanswered?

It fits perfectly with Eren's pre-timeskip character
He got serious character developments after the timeskip but Yams assassinated all of his developments in the chapter 139

Apr 25, 2021 11:16 PM

#67

Adelyn99

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Dec 2020

22

- Yams Ruined A Lot Of Characters in the final arc ( Eren , Mikasa , Armong , Pieck , Annie , Rainer , Jean & Connie , Falco , Zeke , Kruger , Hange and many more )
- Too Many Plot Holes

Apr 26, 2021 12:22 AM

#68

caesarsalad4361

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Apr 2020

313

Not a big fan of the ending because of how Eren concluded as a character, but it was a big fuck you to the Eren x Mikasa and Eren x Historia shippers and I'm here for it. I watched a video by Totally Not Mark on the final chapter of the story and it kind of made me dislike the ending less, though I hope it'll be a little more worked out once the final volume becomes available. Honestly the ending left me with more questions than it did answers.

Apr 26, 2021 1:26 AM

#69

caesarsalad4361

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Apr 2020

313

Rhhdaiw said:

abystoma2 said:

There was no character assasination, it fits perfectly well with Eren's character, who ya all have forgotten is still just an angsty teen. You were just too influenced by "EREN CHAD, EREN CHAD!" memes.

And what questions were left unanswered?

It fits perfectly with Eren's pre-timeskip character
He got serious character developments after the timeskip but Yams assassinated all of his developments in the chapter 139

I agree. The character development he'd gotten, or we thought he'd gotten was all but retconned in the final chapter, which is one of the reasons I didn't like it as much.

Apr 26, 2021 1:51 AM

#70

Xilver

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Feb 2021

325

The problem is that some people really just don't like eating shit, and i myself happen to be one of them.
But i freely recognize that some, ahem, individuals, think eating shit is just like, meh, or some even like eating shit. I don't judge, i mean i do, it's just we have to find a way to coexist you know, those of us who don't like eating shit and those of us who do like it. Or else there's no hope.
So i guess my point is - it's okay that some people hate it, and people can hate it for whatever reason they want, be it ships, be it worms, or be it Historia's fucking eyebrows. And it's okay for people to like it, for... um... hm. For whatever reason they like it.
We must not let Isayama to ruin our relationships, our moods and our spirit to keep moving forward until our asian step-sisters kill us so that a 2000 year old Loli can see it and enjoy it.
That's all.

Apr 26, 2021 4:31 AM

#71

Mack_Yeager

Offline

Sep 2020

2292

Shajedul_abir said:
The ending didn't bother me that much. Just want to know why people hate it so much , I might have missed something or is it just overhated and not that bad at all.

Edit : Thank you for responding. After reading the opinions of many people I kinda get the hang of it. I kinda binged read the final arc with some Aot OST on , so I was into it and really didn't think much about it then . I was never fond of the sending memories thing. Also that the main reason he was so pissed at the titan was because his mother was eaten and now we see , it was Eren that made it happen. The ending changed the whole character of Eren. Yes there are plot holes. So in the end , It wasn't something everyone hoped and it's not a very good ending . But if you consider the whole manga , it is still very good in my opinion because some chapters simply can't change the experience you have had. Well it's my opinion here and I respect yours because not everybody feels the same.

Wrong again I re read it and I can say it's perfect ,but it was rushed 9/10

Apr 26, 2021 4:34 AM

#72

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564534

people just can't accept the fact that Eren is a normal person

Apr 26, 2021 4:42 AM

#73

yallmaddumb

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Mar 2021

11

Because it's the embodiment of Isayama taking a huge shit on the culmination of the entire story.

Apr 26, 2021 5:42 AM

#74

yaegerist-15

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Dec 2020

1141

XuWan said:
people just can't accept the fact that Eren is a normal person

you're right, a normal person who killed 2 mens at the age of nine, a normal person who killed 80% of the world. in the future, every mc who is between 15-20 years old, regardless of the contradictions, can be like eren in 139 and people would call it human condition. GREAT, character inconsistencies dont exist, the ending was fine, Im just a "speed-reader"

Attack on Titan ended with chapter 123 and 130/131 is the epilogue

Apr 26, 2021 8:17 AM

#75

Sidholun

Offline

Jan 2013

133

Because its bad.

Here i put more effort in my post than Hackyama in his story after basement.

harem and ecchi are a cancer to whole planet
bad english user

Apr 26, 2021 10:58 AM

#76

Vinicius234

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Dec 2019

161

Rhhdaiw said:

abystoma2 said:

There was no character assasination, it fits perfectly well with Eren's character, who ya all have forgotten is still just an angsty teen. You were just too influenced by "EREN CHAD, EREN CHAD!" memes.

And what questions were left unanswered?

It fits perfectly with Eren's pre-timeskip character
He got serious character developments after the timeskip but Yams assassinated all of his developments in the chapter 139

It doesnt either, not by an acre. It doesnt fit the kid that mocked on the lelouch route on chapter 6, the same brat that killed 3 grown adults out of sense of justice and obligation as a citizen to save a girl he didnt personally cared about... the same that as a teenager learned the hard way that trusting and leaving the issues to be solved by others doesnt always end well (annie vs levi squad). The same that wanted to be free at all cost and never loved mikasa romantically nor was afraid to die, hence the suicidal bastard nickname... this incel without backbone goes against everything he was. I am closer to conclude that this was yams venting and pointing out this wasnt his ending.

people that reduce him to an angsty teen are either haters, crappy reader, or just werent paying attention to the character at all, which sucks considering he was the mc.

Vinicius234Apr 26, 2021 11:08 AM

Apr 26, 2021 11:40 AM

#77

majinale

Offline

Sep 2014

262

As i stated before in another thread that got nuked. By Occam's razor principle, it's most likely that the simpler answer is the correct one, so in this case the ending is hated because it is flat out bad.

Apr 26, 2021 11:43 AM

#78

removed-user

Offline

Jul 2018

564534

yaegerist-15 said:

XuWan said:
people just can't accept the fact that Eren is a normal person

you're right, a normal person who killed 2 mens at the age of nine, a normal person who killed 80% of the world. in the future, every mc who is between 15-20 years old, regardless of the contradictions, can be like eren in 139 and people would call it human condition. GREAT, character inconsistencies dont exist, the ending was fine, Im just a "speed-reader"

Yeah you're a very speed reader. How about you go back to reading from the start to connect all the dots? In chapter 123, Mikasa wondering that maybe it was meant to happen and it started from when Eren killed those slave traders. Eren seemed to be under Ymir's influence when his eyes became blank and he started doing naughty stuff like rumbling. Besides his mom said he's not anything special so stfu.

Apr 26, 2021 12:17 PM

#79

queefmonster

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Apr 2015

6

time travel
ghosts
eren's a bird
plotholes galore

Apr 26, 2021 5:49 PM

#80

Desnio

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Nov 2018

5

The ending confirms the fascist propaganda of AoT with Armin and co. sympathesing with Eren's awful "lelouch" plan to genocide almost all races. If you're defending the manga, you're either a closeted fascist, or you're still blissfully ignorant/ blindly loyal.

That's why, because fuck fascism, AoT is now an automatic 1/10 for me on myanimelist.

DesnioApr 26, 2021 6:41 PM

Apr 26, 2021 6:12 PM

#81

yaegerist-15

Offline

Dec 2020

1141

XuWan said:

yaegerist-15 said:

you're right, a normal person who killed 2 mens at the age of nine, a normal person who killed 80% of the world. in the future, every mc who is between 15-20 years old, regardless of the contradictions, can be like eren in 139 and people would call it human condition. GREAT, character inconsistencies dont exist, the ending was fine, Im just a "speed-reader"

Yeah you're a very speed reader. How about you go back to reading from the start to connect all the dots? In chapter 123, Mikasa wondering that maybe it was meant to happen and it started from when Eren killed those slave traders. Eren seemed to be under Ymir's influence when his eyes became blank and he started doing naughty stuff like rumbling. Besides his mom said he's not anything special so stfu.

you have the brain size of a cookie, look pal. eren asked her that in 123 because he wanted to know if the Ackerman story with the "submissive to the host" is true, he even asked that zeke and he said its not true, she just loves him and eren said he only has 4 years to live. 0 indication in 123 that eren loves her, even in 50 eren ignored her and looked to armin and jean. in 122, eren freed ymir from her slave mindset, even the title was "to you, 2000 years ago" just to get retconned in 137-139 with the agony of love crap with 0 build up. Ymir loving fritz was never planned when yams wrote 120-123 or even 130/131. His mom (poor thing) said he dont have to be special, he is already special enough because he was born into this world, but guess what? hE wAs JuSt A sLaVe To FaIt, piss off and enjoy all the retcons and plot holes. other fandoms like berserk and Vinland saga are making fun of this ending and aot tards who like it and defend it with their life, I cant wait for anime only to laugh about this top tier garbage ending. And if 122 gets some love indications and the dialogue in 130/131 gets gutted/changed than its clear that the ending was retconned in the last minute

yaegerist-15Apr 26, 2021 6:16 PM

Attack on Titan ended with chapter 123 and 130/131 is the epilogue

Apr 26, 2021 6:15 PM

#82

yaegerist-15

Offline

Dec 2020

1141

copperCity17 said:
The ending confirms the fascist propaganda of AoT with Armin and co. sympathesing with Eren's awful "lelouch" plan to genocide almost all races. If you're defending the manga, you're either a closeted fascist, or you're still blissfully ignorant/ blindly loyal.

thats what many people dont understand. Eren completing this horrifying act but as something terrible and as a dark theme would be better than Armin thanking him for killing 80% wow. The ending we've got makes the genocide look like something reasonable. But if eren would've won, lived his life with all the sins as "cost of freedom" would fit way more to the themes and wouldnt be fascist propaganda

Attack on Titan ended with chapter 123 and 130/131 is the epilogue

Apr 26, 2021 6:52 PM

#83

Desnio

Offline

Nov 2018

5

yaegerist-15 said:

copperCity17 said:
The ending confirms the fascist propaganda of AoT with Armin and co. sympathesing with Eren's awful "lelouch" plan to genocide almost all races. If you're defending the manga, you're either a closeted fascist, or you're still blissfully ignorant/ blindly loyal.

thats what many people dont understand. Eren completing this horrifying act but as something terrible and as a dark theme would be better than Armin thanking him for killing 80% wow. The ending we've got makes the genocide look like something reasonable. But if eren would've won, lived his life with all the sins as "cost of freedom" would fit way more to the themes and wouldnt be fascist propaganda

I personally think all nuance in the story was lost when one side of the conflict became extreme fascism. Just showing ambivalence towards both sides is awful like how Isayama does for so long (I found the discussion amongst fans on whether they identify as "yeagerists" or not was so fucking cringe for this reason).

If the ending had Eren win and wipe out all races but the eldians, then fascism wins, which is terrible. It's a painfully bitter note that fascism was the moral of the story and the answer to the themes of revenge and the cycle of violence (similar to how it is right now).

If Eren loses resoundly without any bullshit "lelouch" crap (which is the most ethically tolerable ending imo), then you have to ask what was fucking point with the story beating around the bush about Eren's motives for long. What was the point pretending there was deep, profound subtext to your story when ends in a cliché "good guys beat fascism to save the world".

Apr 26, 2021 7:19 PM

#84

yaegerist-15

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Dec 2020

1141

copperCity17 said:

yaegerist-15 said:

thats what many people dont understand. Eren completing this horrifying act but as something terrible and as a dark theme would be better than Armin thanking him for killing 80% wow. The ending we've got makes the genocide look like something reasonable. But if eren would've won, lived his life with all the sins as "cost of freedom" would fit way more to the themes and wouldnt be fascist propaganda

I personally think all nuance in the story was lost when one side of the conflict became extreme fascism. Just showing ambivalence towards both sides is awful like how Isayama does for so long (I found the discussion amongst fans on whether they identify as "yeagerists" or not was so fucking cringe for this reason).

If the ending had Eren win and wipe out all races but the eldians, then fascism wins, which is terrible. It's a painfully bitter note that fascism was the moral of the story and the answer to the themes of revenge and the cycle of violence (similar to how it is right now).

If Eren loses resoundly without any bullshit "lelouch" crap (which is the most ethically tolerable ending imo), then you have to ask what was fucking point with the story beating around the bush about Eren's motives for long. What was the point pretending there was deep, profound subtext to your story when ends in a cliché "good guys beat fascism to save the world".

I dont think it would be fascism if eren wins in the ending. Isayama build up all the themes for that and he could deliver it in a manner where people could understand it as a dark toned ending that is showing us what 2000 years of hatred would do to the civilization, he could easily portray such type of ending which we human should definitely not approach as a solution for our conflicts. Instead chapter 139 portray the massacre of 80% reasonable enough to a possible path of peace, which is lazy convenient wiring to me and unrealistic. But the ending that I described, would tell a message about the endless cycle of hate and the outcome of that, and it would be unique. I take that over the ending we've got, any day

Attack on Titan ended with chapter 123 and 130/131 is the epilogue

Apr 26, 2021 9:05 PM

#85

Xilver

Offline

Feb 2021

325

copperCity17 said:
If Eren loses resoundly without any bullshit "lelouch" crap (which is the most ethically tolerable ending imo)

That's not what happened btw. Eren saw how it's going to end when he kissed Historia's hand, so it just happened because it happened, he wasn't sure why it would happen, but he knew it would. In reality, like he himself said he would wipe out the world regardless, even if he knew his friends wouldn't/couldn't stop him.
He wasn't exactly Lelouching, he just knew knew the ending, and all the stuff with making his friends heroes is just the side effect of it all.
He was simply a prisoner of fate. Talking about ethics, i see no point in anything whatsoever if there's no free will, absolutely everything becomes meaningless.
And that's what this entire 11 year story is at the end, it's completely meaningless. Eren never had any choice in anything, he could never lose where won and could never win where he lost. His spirit wasn't his own, his desires weren't his own. He is but a doll.
Absolutely everything was pointless.

Apr 27, 2021 6:25 AM

#86

Desnio

Offline

Nov 2018

5

Xilver said:

copperCity17 said:
If Eren loses resoundly without any bullshit "lelouch" crap (which is the most ethically tolerable ending imo)

That's not what happened btw. Eren saw how it's going to end when he kissed Historia's hand, so it just happened because it happened, he wasn't sure why it would happen, but he knew it would. In reality, like he himself said he would wipe out the world regardless, even if he knew his friends wouldn't/couldn't stop him.
He wasn't exactly Lelouching, he just knew knew the ending, and all the stuff with making his friends heroes is just the side effect of it all.
He was simply a prisoner of fate. Talking about ethics, i see no point in anything whatsoever if there's no free will, absolutely everything becomes meaningless.
And that's what this entire 11 year story is at the end, it's completely meaningless. Eren never had any choice in anything, he could never lose where won and could never win where he lost. His spirit wasn't his own, his desires weren't his own. He is but a doll.
Absolutely everything was pointless.

This is the insane level of blind loyalty required to defend fascist literature that I was referring to earlier. The "Lelouch" ending isn't a specific term you can find in a dictionary. But regardless, let's go over what happens at the end of Code Geass:
1. MC acquires world-ending super weapon
2. With said super weapon, MC is framed by the story as the ultimate "evil" force
3. Its revealed that their actual intention is "far nobler" than it appeared

Yes, you're right there are differences between the stories, but the important strokes are there, which you're (maybe intentionally) ignoring. Namely, the retroactive nature of the twist ending to explain the MC's "real" intentions. You can not deny Armin and co's sympathy in reaction to the twist about Eren's intentions with the rumbling. One major difference that IS worth pointing out is that actually using the super weapon to wipe genocide human races was never part of Lelouch's plan, so Code Geass is still far better than AoT from a moral standpoint. Unlike Eren, Lelouch was actually pretending.

Mikasa and co debating Eren's true intentions as they're headed to fight him is also really bad. It would be as if the Allies were debating Hitler's true intentions as he was in the process of genociding the jewish race. Fascism is still fascism. Isayama does a lot of these shitty tricks to pretty that his story is deeper than it really is. When you quoted me, I wasn't talking about the shallow ethics inside the literature itself. I was instead talking about the ethics of writing a fascist propaganda, and how it's indefensibly immoral.

I also honestly don't why you would to bring up the massive plot canyon that is the time shenanigans and fate. For now, I'll just say that, at best, if you go through enough contrived reasoning to make things "make sense", then you end up with the implication that your main characters had no free will, which is one of the cardinal sins of writing. The theme "absolutely everything was pointless" is hilariously bad (it's why plenty time travel stories fail), and you using this as defense is peak blind loyalty.

Apr 27, 2021 5:06 PM

#87

NiN10d0h

Offline

Apr 2010

1404

You know something is bad when diehard fans become online philosophers trying to explain the plot.

Apr 27, 2021 5:21 PM

#88

recycled_content

Offline

Dec 2020

64

its hated because hype didn't meet reality and it crashed the impossible expectations that people had of the ending of somehow being peak media despite the misgivings people were already having towards the last 10 or so chapters for the most part.

Apr 27, 2021 11:25 PM

#89

Xilver

Offline

Feb 2021

325

copperCity17 said:
This is the insane level of blind loyalty required to defend fascist literature that I was referring to earlier. The "Lelouch" ending isn't a specific term you can find in a dictionary. But regardless, let's go over what happens at the end of Code Geass:
1. MC acquires world-ending super weapon
2. With said super weapon, MC is framed by the story as the ultimate "evil" force
3. Its revealed that their actual intention is "far nobler" than it appeared

Yes, you're right there are differences between the stories, but the important strokes are there, which you're (maybe intentionally) ignoring. Namely, the retroactive nature of the twist ending to explain the MC's "real" intentions. You can not deny Armin and co's sympathy in reaction to the twist about Eren's intentions with the rumbling. One major difference that IS worth pointing out is that actually using the super weapon to wipe genocide human races was never part of Lelouch's plan, so Code Geass is still far better than AoT from a moral standpoint. Unlike Eren, Lelouch was actually pretending.

Mikasa and co debating Eren's true intentions as they're headed to fight him is also really bad. It would be as if the Allies were debating Hitler's true intentions as he was in the process of genociding the jewish race. Fascism is still fascism. Isayama does a lot of these shitty tricks to pretty that his story is deeper than it really is. When you quoted me, I wasn't talking about the shallow ethics inside the literature itself. I was instead talking about the ethics of writing a fascist propaganda, and how it's indefensibly immoral.

I also honestly don't why you would to bring up the massive plot canyon that is the time shenanigans and fate. For now, I'll just say that, at best, if you go through enough contrived reasoning to make things "make sense", then you end up with the implication that your main characters had no free will, which is one of the cardinal sins of writing. The theme "absolutely everything was pointless" is hilariously bad (it's why plenty time travel stories fail), and you using this as defense is peak blind loyalty.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "defend", considering i made it clear that the ending is garbage. And it retrospectively makes everything pointless.

So what was revealed about his intentions exactly?
That he's a hero who sacrificed himself and his soul for his friends? - Nope, he didn't know any of them would even survive at the end. And he would genocide the world regardless, why? - He is not sure himself. He can't know, after all he is nothingness. But we can:
He did what he did because he HAD TO, literally. He never ever truly understood why he wants the things he wants. For a simple reason that for 11 years we were presented with fake Eren. His spirit wasn't his own, his dreams weren't his own, his goals weren't his own. The real Eren is the Eren that only Mikasa saw, the one from 138. And he would never involve kids or civilians in general, like Mikasa herself stated. All the real Eren ever wanted was to live in a small secluded area, peacefully and in stagnation. Real Eren would not join the military, real Eren would never continue fighting in hopeless situations. The real Eren would never start the genocide, he would flee from his war.
So i don't have a clue what you refer to by "noble intentions". There's not a shred of nobility in real Eren.
And this work of fiction is irremediable and indefensible.

Eren's character has no agency. You can't hold him responsible for anything ever. He was nothing but a doll from the very first page of this manga. He is void.
He's not a fucking Lelouch, Lelouch planned his own shit, and fulfilled his own shit. Eren kissed Historia's hand and saw the ending that he couldn't do anything to prevent, because it's a set timeline. He started seeing the strings, but he couldn't defy fate, nor his real self is someone who had the spirit to try to defy fate.
ABSOLUTELY nothing matters when characters have no agency.

Armin thanking him at the end only shows how much of a circus this manga has become, nothing else. It's a fucking clownfest all around.
And i am shocked that the author thought he had THE RIGHT to do this after depicting something like this

You can't turn everything into a joke after crossing this line, without becoming a joke yourself.

So i'm not defending this piece of absolute garbage. I am saying it is worse than you say it is. You're very concerned about the message it sends, but the only message i got from this manga is that no one should ever consume Japanese media, it's not good for anybody, including the Japanese.

XilverApr 27, 2021 11:34 PM

Apr 27, 2021 11:57 PM

#90

dipItFoo

Community Mod

Offline

Aug 2019

430

Thread Locked.

This thread topic has been overdone.

In its current state, this topic will just go on the same derailed path as the other threads with bickering between users who either hate the ending or don't hate the ending. The result is just the two sides committing a full on flame war.

In accordance with the board specific rules please remember to follow the Site Guidelines as well to further prevent violations.

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