Do you like/dislike?
Allyxandra said: For gay women, what do you think about yuri? Like do you think the stuff presented does resemble real life? If you hate it, why? Lesbian here. I personally dislike Yuri. Maybe there are ones out there that I would like, but I haven't found them. (to be fair, I have only read/watched a small selection) To me, they give the impression of straight girls playing at gay. The relationships between the characters rarely have any sexual tension at all, and are portrayed simply as friendships where they kiss. Both are usually femmes, and usually involve rape. It could just be because I am a westerner and was not raised in Japanese culture, so to me these are not real relationships. I can't find any basis off which to compare myself, my experiences, or my relationships to the characters and therefore the scenes just feel so fake and completely uninteresting. |
My candies:  |
Bernrika said: https://twitter.com/AnimesocMegan/status/1259005917418459136 Meanwhile you have another Japanese gay man saying exactly the opposite. It was kinda interesting to read. And I have to agree about the improvement but - as a gay guy - I think it's still not enought: even today it's clear that BLs are written by heterosexual cisgender women for other cis women. I mean, noone is asking BLs to be a realistic portrait of the gay community (I personally don't even want to see a realistic portrait of the gay community if I have to be honest, cause it can be really depressing sometimes - I swear - ), but I think - at his current state - it can't be enjoyed by the majority of gay men cause it's simply still too heteronormative. A banal example: it's almost impossibile to find versatile gay guys in this genre when in reality majority of gay people are not just bottom or top (even if almost everyone has a preference) and they don't have a specific type of body based on their "role" in bed (I mean, what the hell?). Only two times in my entire life I went out with guys who said they were only top and both of them where from East Europe for a reason: I can assure you, that was just internalized homophobia at its finest. So, it's still clear today that the - female -author it's just describing a heterosexual relationship where the "woman" has a penis. Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience. That's why when he said "BL has amazing potential as activism that can be born from enjoment" I was almost kinda offended, Lol. But maybe I'm just talking as a western gay guy who don't know how critic is the situation, so maybe even BLs can make a difference in this case. |
NovecentoMay 16, 2020 1:35 PM
Kalinushka said: I’ve never looked at it that way, but now that you mention it, most yuri certainly does give off that impression. I realized that in some yaoi one of the people has experience and knows for a fact that he’s gay while he’s “teaching” the other, while in yuri both people have no experience and are “experimenting”. To me, they give the impression of straight girls playing at gay. The relationships between the characters rarely have any sexual tension at all, and are portrayed simply as friendships where they kiss. Both are usually femmes, and usually involve rape. I also rarely see yuri between two working adults, most of them are in high school. While yaoi has more works that set place in the adult world than yuri. Novecento said: I’ve thought that maybe female readers insert themselves as the bottom because, as you said, it’s almost as if it’s just a “woman” with a penis. So the female readers don’t feel completely left out from the action or something.So, it's still clear today that the - female -author it's just describing a heterosexual relationship where the "woman" has a penis. Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience. |
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Allyxandra said: Kalinushka said: I’ve never looked at it that way, but now that you mention it, most yuri certainly does give off that impression. I realized that in some yaoi one of the people has experience and knows for a fact that he’s gay while he’s “teaching” the other, while in yuri both people have no experience and are “experimenting”. To me, they give the impression of straight girls playing at gay. The relationships between the characters rarely have any sexual tension at all, and are portrayed simply as friendships where they kiss. Both are usually femmes, and usually involve rape. I also rarely see yuri between two working adults, most of them are in high school. While yaoi has more works that set place in the adult world than yuri. Ah yes, "experimenting". I would love to see Yuri out of the schoolgirl setting and into a more mature one. There is just so much more yaoi out there, it is absolutely going to be more varied in comparison, but I would love if yuri tried to break a few boundaries. |
| My candies: |
| My 2 cents: I'm a bisexual woman and my first manga I read was a Shoujo ai. I also got into yuri after than and watched anime/hentai. I then discovered yaoi and shonen-ai and love that as well. I like both, but I can relate a lot more to yuri/shojo-ai because I'm a woman who likes women. I am a huge fan of both genres when they are done well. |
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Bernrika said: https://twitter.com/AnimesocMegan/status/1259005917418459136 Meanwhile you have another Japanese gay man saying exactly the opposite. Great read. (And with Nanasaki Ryousuke! I've heard of him. Hope his essay can get translated one day.) It's interesting how their interview was less critical about gender and more about the content itself. Just to add, here's more insight from a gay activist in Japan who’s on the fully-critical side. Mizoguchi Akiko (from the interview)’s views are also discussed. It goes along to further explore multiple amazing perspectives that I think feed into the heart of this conversation. Novecento said: Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience. What’s good rep or bad rep depends on who you ask, but I think even the ones that aren’t meant to be supportive have their place. We can recognize that tons of LGBT+ folks find pleasure in them while still critiquing the iffy aspects. You might be interested in that linked essay, it’s kinda long but it touches on some nuances you mentioned. Kalinushka said: Ah yes, "experimenting". I would love to see Yuri out of the schoolgirl setting and into a more mature one. There is just so much more yaoi out there, it is absolutely going to be more varied in comparison, but I would love if yuri tried to break a few boundaries. All of this. Breaking school settings and having them be more than just a few chapters would be refreshing. I’d also like to pitch characters that are allowed to be hella goofy or show “”ugly”” sides/facets to them within the genre. Sometimes I think they try to keep them too polished. |
CMYK said: Novecento said: Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience. What’s good rep or bad rep depends on who you ask, but I think even the ones that aren’t meant to be supportive have their place. We can recognize that tons of LGBT+ folks find pleasure in them while still critiquing the iffy aspects. You might be interested in that linked essay, it’s kinda long but it touches on some nuances you mentioned. I read the article and it was interesting but it doesn't really answer our question: is yaoi for LGBT people or - better - for gay man? (btw, I didn't find the part where he says that "fetishization to them is pretty much a non-issue", but I trust your words). From my point of view the answer is no (not the majority of the works, at least). But neither Bara is for me (maybe less than yaoi if I have to be honest). So I think we should also take in consideration the age (I realized that mangaka can be my father) and geografic location when we make ourself this question. As a western gay dude of 25 I'm not into BL neither Bara and it's kinda frustrating cause as it's said in the interview "… whether you’re a gay man reading gay comics or a straight woman reading BL comics or a gay man reading BL comics or a straight woman, what you’re doing is that you are looking for alternatives to the kind of homogeneous mass edifice of sexuality as depicted in mass media. Clearly if you are a person who’s seeking out that kind of content, the mass media version is not doing it for you. Not only is the mass media version not catering to you– it is actively kind of trying to erase what your desires are." That's true, but this means it's even more frustrating if you can't find what you want to read about "your sexuality" literaly nowhere, neither in "non mainstream" works. And I agree with you about the fact that "even the ones that aren’t meant to be supportive have their place", but I just hope there will be more space in the future for something that an average young gay guy can enjoyed. I will be even more happy if they just introduce good and canon gay characters/romance in regular anime. Allyxandra said: I’ve thought that maybe female readers insert themselves as the bottom because, as you said, it’s almost as if it’s just a “woman” with a penis. So the female readers don’t feel completely left out from the action or something. That's the mojor problem for me. As I said, it's all getting healthier but I can't bypass the fact that one of them (of course the bottom) it's just a woman disguise as a man. The last BL that I watched was a korean one suggested me in the forum ("Hyperventilation") and it had an healthy relationship, consensual-sex, great animation - the bodies were really on point and absolutely cute faces -, neither of them was having problems with their sexuality (a lot of improvement from BL's standard) but the first thing that I thought was "Why the hell am I able to tell who's gonna be the one taking the d just by looking at them?". It was a huge let down. And of course the bottom was kinda motionless during the sex scene (I mean, even before taking the d - can I use this expression in the forum? - ) and than he cried and I was "b r o W H Y". Sure, the story was cute, healthy, that sex scene was on point but at a certain point a saw a woman and a man. I still liked it tho, but I sure I was able to see the "feminine touch" and I my point is exactly that I don't want to see this touch. |
NovecentoMay 17, 2020 1:15 PM
Xstasy said: I find yuri to be generally enjoyable kinda like a wholesome fun. Yaoi can be great to when it's not fetishizing abusive relationships. I totally agree. Quite a few yaoi and even some yuri showcase really abusive behavior from a character and its seen as 'sexy'. I really get turned off from that especially if it is borderline rape / nonconsensual sexual advances. yuk. |
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CMYK said: This was interesting to read, especially the part where one of it says that one of the dudes (I forgot his name sorry) wanted the depiction of homosexuality to only be accessed by gay people, but this excludes young gay people who do not know their identities yet, in which they can realize when reading BLB because it’s more available. Just to add, here's more insight from a gay activist in Japan who’s on the fully-critical side. Mizoguchi Akiko (from the interview)’s views are also discussed. It goes along to further explore multiple amazing perspectives that I think feed into the heart of this conversation. Also, a lot of yaoi is made by lesbians?! Why is a woman who likes other woman, drawing men getting it on... I feel like they’re the last people who would know what a man feels during sex. Korishi said: The girls in wotakoi also fantasize their boyfriends getting it on with each other, this is probably on the more extreme/comedic side but I do wonder if stuff like this really happens.I have a question for straight women that like this stuff: do you fantasize your male crush as gay? like in Nichijou that little blue haired girl draws yaoi of her school crush |
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| Not gay but this is a good question. Rarely see them on AD |
| I'm a bisexual woman and one of my favorite genres is yuri, and I'm a shipper of yuri. I don't watch yaoi. Usually when I watch anime and manga about romance, there are >90% chances that I choose yuri work, so if I have misconceptions about BG or BL, I apologize for them and the following is just my opinion. My opinion on yuri I like yuri because some of the works are really amazing. I love the delicate emotions given out by the girls and how they slowly become lovers. I'm not saying that male-female relationships are not good, but I am much happier to see two women in love then one man and one woman in love. Maybe because in many works that focus on romance, female characters are depicted as weak or have to rely on others, and men are often stronger and the ones to protect their lovers, but in yuri works, women can be strong and protective too. And in hentai, it's more possible to find a yuri work with more romance and couple interactions than BG and BL. I think I'm a person that like to see couples have sex out of true love, and yuri can provide me with many examples of it. (Of course, there're also some yuri hentai that are more hardcore and I only read a few.)But I don't like yuri that is designed just to serve male audience and is designed without depths. My opinion on yaoi I neither like or dislike yaoi, and when I see yaoi works on Jojo, I won't think "the creators are horrible" and just let them draw whatever they like, sometimes even like their works because of the art (not because of the couples). Though I'm worried about the potential harm the popularity of yaoi could bring to gay community in real life. For example, people sexually fantasize gay men and think they are aggressive in touching or having sex with others. We human love fantasy and beautiful sex after all, but it's equally important to respect people who are in same sex relationships in reality. |
JentheworldFeb 13, 2021 2:48 PM
| I'm a bisexual girl. I like yuri but I have trouble finding things I enjoy so I don't read it often. I just end up having to be satisfied with the bait in CGDCT shows. With yaoi it's a lot easier to find something cute where the relationship actually feels like it's progressed but a lot of them feel a bit too melodramatic and the semes tend to be really aggressive. |
| depends >>a lot<< some yaoi can be good and cute but others can be just really stereotypical and not well done whether it be art wise or story wise (and its obviously not directed towards gay men), i sometimes consume it myself but i make sure to critize it while consuming it. overall, i think its just a bussines thing, more consumers more money and stuff, just that i wish some consumers werent so in you face about that they like reading/watching that kinda of stuff |
| piss |
| Personally, I'm not a fan of Yaoi, mostly because of the negative associations I've come to have with it, as well as the awful ways a lot of yaoi I'm aware of portray gay men. There's a lot of harmful stereotypes, uncomfortable characterisations and romanticisation of really toxic things in a lot of Yaoi which really turns me off from it. That obviously doesn't mean I don't think it can be done well, but I haven't personally seen any which do so. Shonen Ai is different, obviously, but that isn't what this thread is about. As for why it's primarily targeted towards women, I think the simplest explanation is fetishisation. A lot of Yaoi fans view gay men as a fetish, and the genre feeds into that because it's likely profitable. I wish there was more Yaoi targeted towards men. I suppose you could also say it's because romance is also typically a more feminine genre, though I don't actually think that's a primary reason. I don't think it's wrong for women to be interested in gay relationships, but I do think it's wrong for them to fetishise gay relationships the way a lot of Yaoi seems to do. |
 Apparently nothing much is known about this Gnos. Some say it's an unknown intelligent lifeform, others say it's a god from another dimension... It's all speculation |
Allyxandra said: For gay men, what do you think about yaoi? Like do you find it to be laughable because of how bad it portrays the way men’s body work in general? I enjoy yaoi for what it is, don't really have much else to say. I don't see anything laughable about its portrayal of men's bodies. Allyxandra said: And finally, for everyone: why do you think both yuri and yaoi are mainly directed towards women? Why is yaoi not mainly directed towards men? And since the lesbian porn industry is mostly made for men, why is that not the case here for the animanga community? I don't know about yuri, but it would be strange for yaoi to be directed at men, I assume you mostly mean gay/bi men, because that's a far smaller demographic than women, overall. I assume women make for better consumers in general, so, from a business standpoint, it makes sense to focus on the most expansive and profitable demographic, and I think that's the 1st thing most people care about. That's how I see it, anyway. |
| I'm bisexual, but I generally avoid anything with sex in it. I prefer shounen-ai, as it doesn't have any sex in it. I'm only attracted to feminine guys, so I prefer anime guys over real life guys. I hate muscles and masculinity. Bara is a cancer to me. I'm not attracted to naked people, either. |
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| I don't read lots of yuri, but I have always enjoyed seeing WLW relationships in anime. Although I've noticed more recently that lots of WLW anime relationships always have a butch and a femme (an example may be Madoka and Homura, or Utena and Anthy) in a relationship, and not anything outside of that. I also like watching anime/reading manga where there are strong hints towards two characters, but it's never canon. As an example, Eli and Nozomi from Love Live, it was never made official, but in the story "Hot Springs and Power Spots", they literally say how much they love each other, and how they'll always be there for one another. It'll always have me getting mad at the series. |
| i dont know cuz i aint gay nor les 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ |
| I’m a lesbian and enjoy yuri. Not exactly a Yuri, but I actually accepted this about myself in large part because of My-Hime, so that show is very important to me. I do think some Yuri is a little creepy but most of the time it’s fine. I also watch BL fairly frequently because I don’t really care what gender the people in romance anime are as long as the writing is good and the characters are likable. Yaoi can be a little much for me though. |
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