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For gay men: what do you think about yaoi? And for gay women: what do you think about yuri?

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May 16, 2020 1:15 PM

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Allyxandra said:
For gay women, what do you think about yuri? Like do you think the stuff presented does resemble real life? If you hate it, why?


Lesbian here. I personally dislike Yuri. Maybe there are ones out there that I would like, but I haven't found them. (to be fair, I have only read/watched a small selection) To me, they give the impression of straight girls playing at gay. The relationships between the characters rarely have any sexual tension at all, and are portrayed simply as friendships where they kiss. Both are usually femmes, and usually involve rape.

It could just be because I am a westerner and was not raised in Japanese culture, so to me these are not real relationships. I can't find any basis off which to compare myself, my experiences, or my relationships to the characters and therefore the scenes just feel so fake and completely uninteresting.
My candies:
May 16, 2020 1:27 PM

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Bernrika said:


https://twitter.com/AnimesocMegan/status/1259005917418459136

Meanwhile you have another Japanese gay man saying exactly the opposite.


It was kinda interesting to read.
And I have to agree about the improvement but - as a gay guy - I think it's still not enought: even today it's clear that BLs are written by heterosexual cisgender women for other cis women.
I mean, noone is asking BLs to be a realistic portrait of the gay community (I personally don't even want to see a realistic portrait of the gay community if I have to be honest, cause it can be really depressing sometimes - I swear - ), but I think - at his current state - it can't be enjoyed by the majority of gay men cause it's simply still too heteronormative.
A banal example: it's almost impossibile to find versatile gay guys in this genre when in reality majority of gay people are not just bottom or top (even if almost everyone has a preference) and they don't have a specific type of body based on their "role" in bed (I mean, what the hell?).
Only two times in my entire life I went out with guys who said they were only top and both of them where from East Europe for a reason: I can assure you, that was just internalized homophobia at its finest.
So, it's still clear today that the - female -author it's just describing a heterosexual relationship where the "woman" has a penis.
Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience.
That's why when he said "BL has amazing potential as activism that can be born from enjoment" I was almost kinda offended, Lol.

But maybe I'm just talking as a western gay guy who don't know how critic is the situation, so maybe even BLs can make a difference in this case.

NovecentoMay 16, 2020 1:35 PM
May 16, 2020 9:57 PM

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Kalinushka said:
To me, they give the impression of straight girls playing at gay. The relationships between the characters rarely have any sexual tension at all, and are portrayed simply as friendships where they kiss. Both are usually femmes, and usually involve rape.
I’ve never looked at it that way, but now that you mention it, most yuri certainly does give off that impression. I realized that in some yaoi one of the people has experience and knows for a fact that he’s gay while he’s “teaching” the other, while in yuri both people have no experience and are “experimenting”.
I also rarely see yuri between two working adults, most of them are in high school. While yaoi has more works that set place in the adult world than yuri.

Novecento said:
So, it's still clear today that the - female -author it's just describing a heterosexual relationship where the "woman" has a penis.
Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience.
I’ve thought that maybe female readers insert themselves as the bottom because, as you said, it’s almost as if it’s just a “woman” with a penis. So the female readers don’t feel completely left out from the action or something.

May 17, 2020 1:42 AM

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Allyxandra said:
Kalinushka said:
To me, they give the impression of straight girls playing at gay. The relationships between the characters rarely have any sexual tension at all, and are portrayed simply as friendships where they kiss. Both are usually femmes, and usually involve rape.
I’ve never looked at it that way, but now that you mention it, most yuri certainly does give off that impression. I realized that in some yaoi one of the people has experience and knows for a fact that he’s gay while he’s “teaching” the other, while in yuri both people have no experience and are “experimenting”.
I also rarely see yuri between two working adults, most of them are in high school. While yaoi has more works that set place in the adult world than yuri.


Ah yes, "experimenting". I would love to see Yuri out of the schoolgirl setting and into a more mature one. There is just so much more yaoi out there, it is absolutely going to be more varied in comparison, but I would love if yuri tried to break a few boundaries.
My candies:
May 17, 2020 2:02 AM

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My 2 cents:
I'm a bisexual woman and my first manga I read was a Shoujo ai. I also got into yuri after than and watched anime/hentai. I then discovered yaoi and shonen-ai and love that as well. I like both, but I can relate a lot more to yuri/shojo-ai because I'm a woman who likes women.

I am a huge fan of both genres when they are done well.
May 17, 2020 2:11 AM
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I find yuri to be generally enjoyable kinda like a wholesome fun.
Yaoi can be great to when it's not fetishizing abusive relationships.
May 17, 2020 6:04 AM

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Bernrika said:

https://twitter.com/AnimesocMegan/status/1259005917418459136

Meanwhile you have another Japanese gay man saying exactly the opposite.

Great read. (And with Nanasaki Ryousuke! I've heard of him. Hope his essay can get translated one day.) It's interesting how their interview was less critical about gender and more about the content itself. Just to add, here's more insight from a gay activist in Japan who’s on the fully-critical side. Mizoguchi Akiko (from the interview)’s views are also discussed. It goes along to further explore multiple amazing perspectives that I think feed into the heart of this conversation.

Novecento said:
Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience.

What’s good rep or bad rep depends on who you ask, but I think even the ones that aren’t meant to be supportive have their place. We can recognize that tons of LGBT+ folks find pleasure in them while still critiquing the iffy aspects. You might be interested in that linked essay, it’s kinda long but it touches on some nuances you mentioned.

Kalinushka said:

Ah yes, "experimenting". I would love to see Yuri out of the schoolgirl setting and into a more mature one. There is just so much more yaoi out there, it is absolutely going to be more varied in comparison, but I would love if yuri tried to break a few boundaries.

All of this. Breaking school settings and having them be more than just a few chapters would be refreshing. I’d also like to pitch characters that are allowed to be hella goofy or show “”ugly”” sides/facets to them within the genre. Sometimes I think they try to keep them too polished.
May 17, 2020 1:06 PM

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CMYK said:

Novecento said:
Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience.

What’s good rep or bad rep depends on who you ask, but I think even the ones that aren’t meant to be supportive have their place. We can recognize that tons of LGBT+ folks find pleasure in them while still critiquing the iffy aspects. You might be interested in that linked essay, it’s kinda long but it touches on some nuances you mentioned.




I read the article and it was interesting but it doesn't really answer our question: is yaoi for LGBT people or - better - for gay man? (btw, I didn't find the part where he says that "fetishization to them is pretty much a non-issue", but I trust your words).
From my point of view the answer is no (not the majority of the works, at least).
But neither Bara is for me (maybe less than yaoi if I have to be honest).
So I think we should also take in consideration the age (I realized that mangaka can be my father) and geografic location when we make ourself this question.
As a western gay dude of 25 I'm not into BL neither Bara and it's kinda frustrating cause as it's said in the interview "… whether you’re a gay man reading gay comics or a straight woman reading BL comics or a gay man reading BL comics or a straight woman, what you’re doing is that you are looking for alternatives to the kind of homogeneous mass edifice of sexuality as depicted in mass media. Clearly if you are a person who’s seeking out that kind of content, the mass media version is not doing it for you. Not only is the mass media version not catering to you– it is actively kind of trying to erase what your desires are."
That's true, but this means it's even more frustrating if you can't find what you want to read about "your sexuality" literaly nowhere, neither in "non mainstream" works.
And I agree with you about the fact that "even the ones that aren’t meant to be supportive have their place", but I just hope there will be more space in the future for something that an average young gay guy can enjoyed.
I will be even more happy if they just introduce good and canon gay characters/romance in regular anime.



Allyxandra said:
I’ve thought that maybe female readers insert themselves as the bottom because, as you said, it’s almost as if it’s just a “woman” with a penis. So the female readers don’t feel completely left out from the action or something.



That's the mojor problem for me.
As I said, it's all getting healthier but I can't bypass the fact that one of them (of course the bottom) it's just a woman disguise as a man.
The last BL that I watched was a korean one suggested me in the forum ("Hyperventilation") and it had an healthy relationship, consensual-sex, great animation - the bodies were really on point and absolutely cute faces -, neither of them was having problems with their sexuality (a lot of improvement from BL's standard) but the first thing that I thought was "Why the hell am I able to tell who's gonna be the one taking the d just by looking at them?".
It was a huge let down.
And of course the bottom was kinda motionless during the sex scene (I mean, even before taking the d - can I use this expression in the forum? - ) and than he cried and I was "b r o W H Y".
Sure, the story was cute, healthy, that sex scene was on point but at a certain point a saw a woman and a man.
I still liked it tho, but I sure I was able to see the "feminine touch" and I my point is exactly that I don't want to see this touch.






NovecentoMay 17, 2020 1:15 PM
May 17, 2020 5:25 PM

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Xstasy said:
I find yuri to be generally enjoyable kinda like a wholesome fun.
Yaoi can be great to when it's not fetishizing abusive relationships.


I totally agree. Quite a few yaoi and even some yuri showcase really abusive behavior from a character and its seen as 'sexy'. I really get turned off from that especially if it is borderline rape / nonconsensual sexual advances. yuk.
May 17, 2020 5:47 PM
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I have a question for straight women that like this stuff: do you fantasize your male crush as gay? like in Nichijou that little blue haired girl draws yaoi of her school crush
May 17, 2020 7:36 PM

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CMYK said:
Just to add, here's more insight from a gay activist in Japan who’s on the fully-critical side. Mizoguchi Akiko (from the interview)’s views are also discussed. It goes along to further explore multiple amazing perspectives that I think feed into the heart of this conversation.
This was interesting to read, especially the part where one of it says that one of the dudes (I forgot his name sorry) wanted the depiction of homosexuality to only be accessed by gay people, but this excludes young gay people who do not know their identities yet, in which they can realize when reading BLB because it’s more available.

Also, a lot of yaoi is made by lesbians?! Why is a woman who likes other woman, drawing men getting it on... I feel like they’re the last people who would know what a man feels during sex.

Korishi said:
I have a question for straight women that like this stuff: do you fantasize your male crush as gay? like in Nichijou that little blue haired girl draws yaoi of her school crush
The girls in wotakoi also fantasize their boyfriends getting it on with each other, this is probably on the more extreme/comedic side but I do wonder if stuff like this really happens.

Jan 29, 2021 8:51 AM
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I'm a straight guy.
Personally I'm not too bothered about the gender of the people who are in the hentai. For the most part I really think Yaoi has some of the best storylines and some of the best artworks, even better than straight ones.

I haven't really read any yuri hentais, if you know any good ones please recommend.

I think its really interesting to see when both the people who are about to hook up are hot as fuck and have intense chemistry, which is why I am not biased to the sexuality of the characters.

Now why lesbian porn is high in demand but not lesbian/yuri hentai is probably because that's just how the trends developed. Maybe people who are into lesbo porn tend not to be into anime because it 'cartoons~'

Unpopular opinion -> I really like when both the characters are really hot, in this case the guys have a ripped ass body and even those yaois are wholsesome and enjoyable.

Its ok to read yaoi and still be into women. Just don't be so scared of protecting your sexuality. Seeing one gay guy kiss another will not make you gay even if you liked it. It just means you like love. And if you aren't into love then yaoi has those too. Just chill.

Thank you for listening to me, I made an account just for this one post
Jan 29, 2021 8:58 AM

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Not gay but this is a good question. Rarely see them on AD
Feb 13, 2021 2:42 PM

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I'm a bisexual woman and one of my favorite genres is yuri, and I'm a shipper of yuri. I don't watch yaoi. Usually when I watch anime and manga about romance, there are >90% chances that I choose yuri work, so if I have misconceptions about BG or BL, I apologize for them and the following is just my opinion.

My opinion on yuri
I like yuri because some of the works are really amazing. I love the delicate emotions given out by the girls and how they slowly become lovers. I'm not saying that male-female relationships are not good, but I am much happier to see two women in love then one man and one woman in love. Maybe because in many works that focus on romance, female characters are depicted as weak or have to rely on others, and men are often stronger and the ones to protect their lovers, but in yuri works, women can be strong and protective too. And in hentai, it's more possible to find a yuri work with more romance and couple interactions than BG and BL. I think I'm a person that like to see couples have sex out of true love, and yuri can provide me with many examples of it. (Of course, there're also some yuri hentai that are more hardcore and I only read a few.)But I don't like yuri that is designed just to serve male audience and is designed without depths.

My opinion on yaoi
I neither like or dislike yaoi, and when I see yaoi works on Jojo, I won't think "the creators are horrible" and just let them draw whatever they like, sometimes even like their works because of the art (not because of the couples). Though I'm worried about the potential harm the popularity of yaoi could bring to gay community in real life. For example, people sexually fantasize gay men and think they are aggressive in touching or having sex with others.

We human love fantasy and beautiful sex after all, but it's equally important to respect people who are in same sex relationships in reality.
JentheworldFeb 13, 2021 2:48 PM
Feb 20, 2021 2:07 PM
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I'm a bisexual female. I can't speak for all but I enjoy reading BL because it's romance. I enjoy GL because it's romance. The same goes for SL romance manga. I find the male relationships cute and I often fantasize about a man who would love me like that. It seems in most yaois men actually express there feelings and that's something I enjoy. With GL it's the same thing. I guess it's targeted to women because women like men and theres two men in the story line? I'm not sure.
Feb 20, 2021 7:29 PM

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I'm a bisexual girl. I like yuri but I have trouble finding things I enjoy so I don't read it often. I just end up having to be satisfied with the bait in CGDCT shows.

With yaoi it's a lot easier to find something cute where the relationship actually feels like it's progressed but a lot of them feel a bit too melodramatic and the semes tend to be really aggressive.
Jun 10, 2021 4:05 PM
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I originally wrote this to respond to a YouTube video where the female host seemed nervous about how she should feel about Yaoi. That it was somehow politically suspect. She called it "Gay Fetishism".

I thought she needn't worry about it. But in answering back I sort of lost control of my writing. I wrote much too much. But then I thought of posting it here. Not sure if it's that welcome. Sorry if I go overboard.

I wrote:

Wow! You seem so uptight about this subject. Trust me you shouldn't be. I'm a gay man. But that counts very little as no gay man can speak for gayness, it's too broad a category. I'm also white man of another generation. Not much there that makes my opinion special either. Maybe my age might give me a different perspective.

I think you've been intimidated by political correctness. I'm not one of those who curse "Social Justice Warriors" and Woke culture, I see some real value in some of that. But having too much of a test for political legitimacy can be a bad thing. Are your views gay enough or feminist enough or black enough. Who says? Who gets to ask?

Okay, getting down to cases. One gay man's opinion on Yaoi and "Gay fetishism". I think there is this erroneous assumption that Yaoi/BL/or whatever you want to call it, is a product of Japanese culture. The idea goes Japanese girls find it too embarrassing to read heterosexual material and so prefer romance that is less threatening, done strictly among males, with the bonus of seeing men intimately.

I don't know how true that is culturally for Japan but how's that a fetish? And it's definitely not strictly a Japanese phenomenon. Sure you might talk of titillation and porn addiction but it sounds like you're trying to make a case for some sort of sexual cultural appropriation. Like Yaoi is some sort of sexual minstrel show of males performing stereotypes for females. Now, I wouldn't say yaoi is without stereotypes, but I think it goes deeper than all that.

I'm old enough to remember the start of Star Trek fandom which sort of piggybacked on Science Fiction fandom which had already developed an underground structure, a sub culture of its own of conventions and amateur art and self published fanzines. This was long before the internet. Among those fanzines, some published by female fans, suddenly appeared "K/S", fanzines of stories where Kirk and Spock were lovers. You didn't need Japanese culture to produce that phenomenon.

Star Trek also was part of the fan fiction discovery. That you could feel a part of your favorite TV show by writing your own stories. Having a story means you needed a plot. I suppose Battle plots are easy (damn, why do so many Manga turn into Battle or Tournament plots - very tiring) But sex plots are also easy, get two characters from your favorite show suddenly decide they want to hook up. Voila, a fan story. Obviously an attractive idea to many female writers thus a whole new field of amateur fiction called "slash fiction" was born. I don't know what percent of slash is now M/M, maybe yaoi is dominant, I've not kept up on that.

I suppose what I'm saying that this sort of "Ship" fiction, before the term was invented, seems more a female thing than a Japanese thing. And it isn't limited to gay subject matter. Then how do you get it moved over to gay male yaoi?

Well, you could make a bit of a Japanese case. Classic samurai Japan had a third sex, young men who dressed less masculine and had sex with adult men. They were called Wakashu. But this is not just a Japanese thing. Plain fact some men would screw anything that moves and a beardless teenage slim boy looks more feminine. Ancient Greece seems to have had a culture of serial bisexuality where (maybe to let off some sexual steam in boys?) Boys were virtually encouraged to have sex and love among themselves and later as a mature adult they took on a wife and children. - Note: Yes, there were age differences in the male lovers but it wasn't pedophilia, not 40 year olds with 10 year olds, but maybe college age men with beards with high schoolers, or senior high school boys with junior high school boys, sort of what ages you see in manga. I don't think this is an aberration but a fact of human nature that some cultures recognize and others make taboo. If sexual liberation goes to its natural extent we could see a return of the third sex. (Though I'll probably never live to see it.)

Thus I don't think it was Japanese culture that made Yaoi possible but manga publishing itself. With the Enormous Volume of manga produced some pretty boy art sort of leaked into there. If you haven't noticed, a lot of manga likes to make itself stand out among the vast amount around them, it likes to shock. Thus you get scatological and ultra violent scenes and pretty naturally beautiful boys and deviants. But before that happened when basically tame ordinary manga and anime had pretty boys who were inseparable, what else is a normal thinking and feeling female to do but to ship them?

Does that sound sexist? Think of it this way. The movie Brokeback Mountain was a hit movie and what sold a lot of tickets was the female audience. Why?

The story was a very fictionalized version of true stories. It was essentially a tragedy but it was a story that recognized the human truth of male to male love. Think about it. Watching people struggling over their identity, the place of sex in their lives, the difficulty of finding and holding on to love. Crudely put, the female audience could see a movie that showed that indeed males are capable of love. Isn't that reassuring. But more than that the "female" issues of identity, sex and love aren't female issues but human issues. Isn't that amazing men can be human too.

Here I guess I have to say I'm really not that wise when it comes to all human dimensions. As a gay man hetrosexual males still are a bit of a mystery to me. Hetero males sometimes seem to be trying to avoid human feelings and replacing them with war or sports... I don't think they are burying their feelings, as some people think, they are doing something else with them that I don't entirely understand and I may never figure out. - I could be wrong. Maybe they don't have some human feelings. But then why would gay men be an exception?

But beyond all that I think it's obvious that the female interest in romance and Yaoi and "shipping" is natural, and comforting and reassuring. It isn't just fun, it's good for you.

So... long journey to this conclusion. Don't fret over liking Yaoi or Boy Love manga and anime, be thankful for the Japanese publishing system for providing it. And don't forget the Japanese fans who produce Dojinshi who are willing to draw what the canon volumes leave out. :-)

My hope is that the larger hetero female audience will make gay male love subjects look more bankable to media producers. A world audience will make more male love stories available for both hetero female and gay men. As for me the current "stereotype" of androgynous bottoms and love conquering gay panic tropes suits me fine. Any further varieties of gay male experience should come as volume of material increases.

So... Happy Boys love to everybody.


Jun 10, 2021 4:26 PM

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depends >>a lot<<
some yaoi can be good and cute but others can be just really stereotypical and not well done whether it be art wise or story wise (and its obviously not directed towards gay men), i sometimes consume it myself but i make sure to critize it while consuming it. overall, i think its just a bussines thing, more consumers more money and stuff, just that i wish some consumers werent so in you face about that they like reading/watching that kinda of stuff
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Jun 10, 2021 4:48 PM

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Personally, I'm not a fan of Yaoi, mostly because of the negative associations I've come to have with it, as well as the awful ways a lot of yaoi I'm aware of portray gay men. There's a lot of harmful stereotypes, uncomfortable characterisations and romanticisation of really toxic things in a lot of Yaoi which really turns me off from it. That obviously doesn't mean I don't think it can be done well, but I haven't personally seen any which do so. Shonen Ai is different, obviously, but that isn't what this thread is about.

As for why it's primarily targeted towards women, I think the simplest explanation is fetishisation. A lot of Yaoi fans view gay men as a fetish, and the genre feeds into that because it's likely profitable. I wish there was more Yaoi targeted towards men. I suppose you could also say it's because romance is also typically a more feminine genre, though I don't actually think that's a primary reason.

I don't think it's wrong for women to be interested in gay relationships, but I do think it's wrong for them to fetishise gay relationships the way a lot of Yaoi seems to do.
Apparently nothing much is known about this Gnos. Some say it's an unknown intelligent lifeform, others say it's a god from another dimension... It's all speculation
Jun 10, 2021 10:14 PM
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So...

We've got a nomenclature problem here?

My exposure to the term Yaoi is as a generic. All male love manga are called Yaoi to the people I've been exposed to. I think it's used thus by marketing as well. You ask for Yaoi on Kindle you get both stuff that is only love with no full frontal and porn.

Seems like you're seperating Shonen ai as meaning romance and Yaoi as porn. When I first encountered Shounen ai it meant beautiful boys in the age sense. So many pretty boy princes who were younger than 15. If you did porn with kids that age it's called Shota I believe.

Well... I don't take back what I said. I don't take that seme and yuke stuff seriously. It's still just entertainment. If they push abuse for that shock factor I can see how that could be objectionable. Up until recently I found the "No No No... yes" tiresome but I recently watched (what's it's name?) "The number one sexiest man is after me" (something like that) it started off like almost date rape ... but by the end of the series I liked it.

Whatever. You do you :-)
Jun 11, 2021 8:14 AM

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Allyxandra said:
For gay men, what do you think about yaoi? Like do you find it to be laughable because of how bad it portrays the way men’s body work in general?

I enjoy yaoi for what it is, don't really have much else to say. I don't see anything laughable about its portrayal of men's bodies.

Allyxandra said:
And finally, for everyone: why do you think both yuri and yaoi are mainly directed towards women? Why is yaoi not mainly directed towards men? And since the lesbian porn industry is mostly made for men, why is that not the case here for the animanga community?

I don't know about yuri, but it would be strange for yaoi to be directed at men, I assume you mostly mean gay/bi men, because that's a far smaller demographic than women, overall. I assume women make for better consumers in general, so, from a business standpoint, it makes sense to focus on the most expansive and profitable demographic, and I think that's the 1st thing most people care about. That's how I see it, anyway.
Jun 11, 2021 8:25 AM

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I'm bisexual, but I generally avoid anything with sex in it. I prefer shounen-ai, as it doesn't have any sex in it.

I'm only attracted to feminine guys, so I prefer anime guys over real life guys. I hate muscles and masculinity. Bara is a cancer to me. I'm not attracted to naked people, either.

Jun 14, 2021 3:49 AM
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It really depends. There are a lot of yaoi and yuri (especially yaoi because there is more of it) that got abusive relationships that are romanticized. On the other hand, there are also straight romances like this, but it's more present in the yaoi genre.

So, it depends how the characters and their relationships are portrayed. I don't know what's so hard about portraying people as people and love as love, no matter what gender they have.

About yuri: I enjoyed some yuri / girls love a lot, especially Sweet Blue Flowers, Whispered Words and Bloom Into You. But I miss official lesbian couples (or at least strong hints) in other series that aren't slice of life romances.

Besides magical girl series. They are really nice and I tried also the the Pretty Cure series, but I dunno... they are TOO shiny haha
I like the darker take on them more.

Soon, I'll try Blue Drop, Noir, Ga-Rei Zero and Canaan.
Tbh Kanazuki no Miko disappointed me a lot. Not only it has rapey moments which destroyed it for me, there is also something wrong with a girls love series, if you root for the heterosexual couple lol

Tho I enjoyed Princess Principal and Wonder Egg Priority a lot.

Still, I miss to see official couples like Korra x Asami in anime.
removed-userJun 14, 2021 4:55 AM
Jun 14, 2021 3:57 AM
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I like girls and enjoy both Shoujo Ai and Yuri, most are pretty good while others are beyond awful (Citrus and Netsuzou TRap for example)
Jun 14, 2021 2:39 PM
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I'm a bi woman, so can't really answer the poll, but...

I spend a lot of time reading BL and GL (which afaik are used much more than yaoi/yuri in Japan nowadays, making most manga websites including MAL look weird with their arbitrary yaoi/shounen ai, etc, splits), and I feel similarly to @Jentheworld further up the thread, who probably put it better than I did. GL has more female characters with agency, and that's lovely to see, because shoujo works are absolutely plagued by helpless women who can't do anything for themselves without the presence of a Strong Protector(TM). At the same time, you do get works that pander to literally the lowest common denominator of dudes, or are literally just slice of life 4-koma strips with nothing to do with being gay, and for that, I recommend the wonder that is AO3. For whenever you get tired of Japan's bs.

BL is getting better. Not in terms of anime, where producers underfund BL works awfully so that they end up looking cheap and nasty, and tend to pick properties that are toxic af for adaptation, but in terms of manga it's far better than it was. Less often do I see a poor, poor man having sex without lube. Less often do I see 'only if it's you, bro'. Less often do I see the seme/uke dynamic which was literally just draping a 'gay' facade over a framework of violent heteronormative values straight out of the worst shoujo has to offer. Now I occasionally see works with men being allowed to be openly emotional, or even look like they... actually like having sex with each other(gasp!). It's still rare to see anything hold a candle to fanfic, but BL has improved dramatically since the early 00s.

Yes, I have recs, if anyone wants :3
PushMePullYouJun 14, 2021 3:13 PM
Jun 14, 2021 3:08 PM

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I don't read lots of yuri, but I have always enjoyed seeing WLW relationships in anime. Although I've noticed more recently that lots of WLW anime relationships always have a butch and a femme (an example may be Madoka and Homura, or Utena and Anthy) in a relationship, and not anything outside of that.

I also like watching anime/reading manga where there are strong hints towards two characters, but it's never canon. As an example, Eli and Nozomi from Love Live, it was never made official, but in the story "Hot Springs and Power Spots", they literally say how much they love each other, and how they'll always be there for one another. It'll always have me getting mad at the series.
Jun 14, 2021 3:36 PM

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Sep 2020
67
i dont know cuz i aint gay nor les 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
Jun 14, 2021 4:29 PM
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Jul 2018
564616
Novecento said:
Bernrika said:


https://twitter.com/AnimesocMegan/status/1259005917418459136

Meanwhile you have another Japanese gay man saying exactly the opposite.


It was kinda interesting to read.
And I have to agree about the improvement but - as a gay guy - I think it's still not enought: even today it's clear that BLs are written by heterosexual cisgender women for other cis women.
I mean, noone is asking BLs to be a realistic portrait of the gay community (I personally don't even want to see a realistic portrait of the gay community if I have to be honest, cause it can be really depressing sometimes - I swear - ), but I think - at his current state - it can't be enjoyed by the majority of gay men cause it's simply still too heteronormative.
A banal example: it's almost impossibile to find versatile gay guys in this genre when in reality majority of gay people are not just bottom or top (even if almost everyone has a preference) and they don't have a specific type of body based on their "role" in bed (I mean, what the hell?).
Only two times in my entire life I went out with guys who said they were only top and both of them where from East Europe for a reason: I can assure you, that was just internalized homophobia at its finest.
So, it's still clear today that the - female -author it's just describing a heterosexual relationship where the "woman" has a penis.
Things are becoming better for sure, but gender norme and heteromativity are still there and can't be enjoyed by LGBT audience.
That's why when he said "BL has amazing potential as activism that can be born from enjoment" I was almost kinda offended, Lol.

But maybe I'm just talking as a western gay guy who don't know how critic is the situation, so maybe even BLs can make a difference in this case.

(Sorry to quote something old but it was interesting to read this discussion)

I mean, I'm not a gay man, but I'm a queer woman and therefore part of the lgbt community and got some other queer friends.
And I know from a friend that at least the western lgbt / gay community is a lot into, well, "straightacting" and they give him more shit for "being too feminine" than some straight people do.

So... tbh, the term "woman with a penis" doesn't sit right with me tbh, even tho I get what you mean.

In the same way I also experienced that some guys, who say "I don't like male characters that are written by women, because they don't appear manly enough. Guys like that don't exist in real life" have backwards ideas of gender roles and how men and women should act.
I mean, I know the guys that apparantly don't exist, if you believe them. xD

I also got from some queer women shit, because they accused me of only looking and acting quite feminine because society told me so. I feel comfortable like that, but there are these toxic women, who say: look at these two femmes trying to pass as heterosexual friends" or anything.
removed-userJun 14, 2021 4:32 PM
Jun 14, 2021 7:29 PM

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Jul 2015
506
I’m a lesbian and enjoy yuri. Not exactly a Yuri, but I actually accepted this about myself in large part because of My-Hime, so that show is very important to me. I do think some Yuri is a little creepy but most of the time it’s fine. I also watch BL fairly frequently because I don’t really care what gender the people in romance anime are as long as the writing is good and the characters are likable. Yaoi can be a little much for me though.
Feb 17, 2023 12:03 PM
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Feb 2023
1
I am a gay dude and while I don't hate yaoi, I hate most of the people who read/watch it. Sometimes I meet one of THOSE people who read yaoi and they be like "are you a top or a bottom?" They basically just ask these weird sexual questions-
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