| I'm not religious but I still like to enjoy the festivals. I'm agnostic and an Existentialist. I do not shy away from telling friends and my parents my beliefs but I'm also not interested in imposing or arguing about the topic so I prefer not bringing it up unless asked. I'm unconcerned about others beliefs as long as they don't attempt to impose their ideals onto me. However I'm still curious to learn about the thought process that led to the person reaching their conclusion, I feel gaining insight into various perspectives will help me to refine my own thought process. Satoushiki said: My logical perspective, people have certain questions in life that bothers them a lot and mostly rely on the popes or priest for some answers, but none of them hits them, you know why? because it's their own opinion (or much more likely, a repeating cycle of non-sense response) and not from their false lord, it's obvious if you look at it. People tend to wonder why they exist and they find it difficult to accept that there may be no inherent meaning to their life and that we don't have the answer to all the questions. We do not know how this universe came into existence or even why. We do not know why life came into existence in the first place and humanity may never get the answer to such questions. Some choose to follow religion to comfort themselves by believing in what someone else says. BlakexEkalb said: I'm a Christian. I do believe that this world must have been created by something/someone. The amount of complexity to the smallest degree in life just seems improbable for it to just happen naturally, but then again we all have our own takes on the matter. You can be non-religious and still believe that the universe was created somehow. I think majority of people won't deny that fact, they just accept that they don't know the answer of how. Even with the belief that someone (God) created the world it brings up the question of how was that person created? I'm curious what are your thoughts on that question. As for the complexity thing, yes but if it didn't happen we wouldn't be able to contemplate such a question in the first place. Kind of like when someone asks why is there something rather than nothing, if there was nothing we wouldn't be able to ask such a question in the first place so it's like a catch-22 situation. Thanakos said: So I stick with a strict "I don't know'' and try to follow ideas which prolong human life in a way that enables this conversation to go on I like this way of thinking. I'm curious why you were a devout believer before (Can't remember if you told me before)? Ever since I developed adequate critical thinking skills at the age of 5 I've always had doubts. Every time I asked questions to my parents I would receive vague answers that required blind faith which always left me disappointed. A form of comfort by blindly believing in others due to not having the answers yourself is the only reasoning I see for becoming a devout believer. |
<Insert clever quote> |
| I'm a Christian who wholeheartedly believes in God and who's fully devoted in ones faith. Takamura-sama said: Could someone write a book so great and consistent with our year? The book has NEVER been changed unlike the Bible. Could anyone write a book that would still be consistent in research of things that weren't available now but are 1400 years in the future and still be consistent? No one can. You are correct, the Bible in my opinion has been changed several times over the millenia depending on how the translators interpreted it, but you also forgot that the Bible came first before the Quran. That's why I only read the Hebrew and Greek version, which is far more accurate than the English ones. I'm not going into further debate, I also have nothing against Islam. |
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Peaceful_Critic said: I don't know the basics, so..is it centered around no gods, multiple gods or a single one? What are some traditions of the religion? It's a monotheistic belief. We believe in that there's only one God. God in Arabic is Allah. We believe that Muhammad was the last messenger that brought the word of God into the Quran. Muhammad was also in the Bible and Tohra foreshadowed. We also believe in Jesus, Moses, Adam and more prophets. We don't worship humans. We only worship Allah and see him as our only creater. Christians tend to also pray to Jesus we don't do that. Our tradition well soon Ramadan is upon us. We will fast from sunrise to dawn. No food or drinking at all. We also try to be with Allah more and so the right thing. After that we have a party. |
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
Gan_water said: You don't have to wait until then. Psychedelic, ego death, religious experiences etc. These can all give the human mind a glimpse beyond the ordinary. Thanks but no thanks. I prefer not to take any drugs. But if you feel like that helps, go for it. |
| "Even if there isn't a God or meaning behind life. That doesn't mean you can't create your own meaning and make the best out of life." |
RafflesHolmes said: Gan_water said: You don't have to wait until then. Psychedelic, ego death, religious experiences etc. These can all give the human mind a glimpse beyond the ordinary. Thanks but no thanks. I prefer not to take any drugs. But if you feel like that helps, go for it. Well, don't say nobody ever told you. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
-InfiniteLoop- said: I'm not religious but I still like to enjoy the festivals. I'm agnostic and an Existentialist. I do not shy away from telling friends and my parents my beliefs but I'm also not interested in imposing or arguing about the topic so I prefer not bringing it up unless asked. I'm unconcerned about others beliefs as long as they don't attempt to impose their ideals onto me. However I'm still curious to learn about the thought process that led to the person reaching their conclusion, I feel gaining insight into various perspectives will help me to refine my own thought process. Satoushiki said: My logical perspective, people have certain questions in life that bothers them a lot and mostly rely on the popes or priest for some answers, but none of them hits them, you know why? because it's their own opinion (or much more likely, a repeating cycle of non-sense response) and not from their false lord, it's obvious if you look at it. People tend to wonder why they exist and they find it difficult to accept that there may be no inherent meaning to their life and that we don't have the answer to all the questions. We do not know how this universe came into existence or even why. We do not know why life came into existence in the first place and humanity may never get the answer to such questions. Some choose to follow religion to comfort themselves by believing in what someone else says. BlakexEkalb said: I'm a Christian. I do believe that this world must have been created by something/someone. The amount of complexity to the smallest degree in life just seems improbable for it to just happen naturally, but then again we all have our own takes on the matter. You can be non-religious and still believe that the universe was created somehow. I think majority of people won't deny that fact, they just accept that they don't know the answer of how. Even with the belief that someone (God) created the world it brings up the question of how was that person created? I'm curious what are your thoughts on that question. As for the complexity thing, yes but if it didn't happen we wouldn't be able to contemplate such a question in the first place. Kind of like when someone asks why is there something rather than nothing, if there was nothing we wouldn't be able to ask such a question in the first place so it's like a catch-22 situation. Thanakos said: So I stick with a strict "I don't know'' and try to follow ideas which prolong human life in a way that enables this conversation to go on I like this way of thinking. I'm curious why you were a devout believer before (Can't remember if you told me before)? Ever since I developed adequate critical thinking skills at the age of 5 I've always had doubts. Every time I asked questions to my parents I would receive vague answers that required blind faith which always left me disappointed. A form of comfort by blindly believing in others due to not having the answers yourself is the only reasoning I see for becoming a devout believer. Okay so here's an answer to the question who made Allah/god. Allah created the world. He also created time. In nothingness there's no time or anything. He made the entire universe. He made time. All his creations. Since he created time. There was no time before that so there's no reason/need to believe that he was created. He is outside time altogether and doesn't need a creater. Think of it as someone who makes a video game. He's outside the game's time period. So he doesn't need to live in their time. This is a far fetched example cause we only know time and that it passes. I could explain more if you will it. Pm me or come to my discord server if you want a bigger and more precise explanation |
| In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
Gan_water said: RafflesHolmes said: Thanks but no thanks. I prefer not to take any drugs. But if you feel like that helps, go for it. Well, don't say nobody ever told you. Trust me I won't lol. Had a high school teacher who actually encouraged her students to test drugs out believe it or not to feel a type of spiritual feeling. She had books like the bible, Quran and a few other religious texts in her classroom as well. Tbh, thinking back on it now she probably had some drugs hidden away in her classroom somewhere as well considering how she was later fired for encouraging drug activity and few other illegal bullshit I later heard of. |
| "Even if there isn't a God or meaning behind life. That doesn't mean you can't create your own meaning and make the best out of life." |
RafflesHolmes said: Trust me I won't lol. Had a high school teacher who actually encouraged her students to test drugs out believe it or not to feel a type of spiritual feeling. She had books like the bible, Quran and a few other religious texts in her classroom as well. Tbh, thinking back on it now she probably had some drugs hidden away in her classroom somewhere as well considering how she was later fired for encouraging drug activity and few other illegal bullshit I later heard of. Really? Damn bro that's crazy. Some hippie lady huh? Anyways man I'm not necessarily saying you should take drugs per se, my point here is more so that dying doesn't have to be the moment of realization. The realization will occur to you as the observer, right? This just goes to show that investigation into the nature of the observer himself is therefor the logical route to take if you wanted to figure out just what it is that is living and dying here. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
Takamura-sama said: Since he created time. There was no time before that so there's no reason/need to believe that he was created. He is outside time altogether and doesn't need a creater. This is the statement that I cannot wrap my head around. I doesn't make sense to me, even if there was no time I still don't understand why there's no need for him to be created. I won't believe something that I cannot comprehend. I also do not understand how the universe was created but I can view it's existence which is why I believe in the possibility of some phenomenon or higher being existing but I will not conclude with any certainty until I understand it. That's why for the moment my answer is "I don't know". If I ever die and meet God my first question will be to explain how he came into existence. I'll be sure to irritate him until he provides me with all the answers. Takamura-sama said: Think of it as someone who makes a video game. He's outside the game's time period. So he doesn't need to live in their time. But even if God is outside of our video game he must exist in some other world. My question would be who created that world/video game that our God exists in then? It would be a recursive question that would keep going on and on. I truly cannot fathom an answer to this question and I don't think humanity will ever be able to solve this. |
xLoopMay 4, 2019 1:37 AM
<Insert clever quote> |
Gan_water said: RafflesHolmes said: Trust me I won't lol. Had a high school teacher who actually encouraged her students to test drugs out believe it or not to feel a type of spiritual feeling. She had books like the bible, Quran and a few other religious texts in her classroom as well. Tbh, thinking back on it now she probably had some drugs hidden away in her classroom somewhere as well considering how she was later fired for encouraging drug activity and few other illegal bullshit I later heard of. Really? Damn bro that's crazy. Some hippie lady huh? Anyways man I'm not necessarily saying you should take drugs per se, my point here is more so that dying doesn't have to be the moment of realization. The realization will occur to you as the observer, right? This just goes to show that investigation into the nature of the observer himself is therefor the logical route to take if you wanted to figure out just what it is that is living and dying here. Yep, the only reason I can think of her not being fired straight away could be because of the size of the town my school was in. It was basically, almost village size. So you can imagine, that they didn't have much choices to begin with. And you may have a point my friend. Not gonna deny that. But then again, one man's truth, may not be another's. |
| "Even if there isn't a God or meaning behind life. That doesn't mean you can't create your own meaning and make the best out of life." |
RafflesHolmes said: And you may have a point my friend. Not gonna deny that. But then again, one man's truth, may not be another's. That's very far out man hahah, my school sure didn't have that. In any case I'm merely presenting my view which is that this is far too urgent of a question to go uninvestigated. I feel humans should be doing and trying things to explore our own consciousness and sensory experience. I feel that if anyone does this enough they will see that their own life is just a drop of water in a larger ocean. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
Gan_water said: RafflesHolmes said: And you may have a point my friend. Not gonna deny that. But then again, one man's truth, may not be another's. That's very far out man hahah, my school sure didn't have that. In any case I'm merely presenting my view which is that this is far too urgent of a question to go uninvestigated. I feel humans should be doing and trying things to explore our own consciousness and sensory experience. I feel that if anyone does this enough they will see that their own life is just a drop of water in a larger ocean. I know don't worry owo and ya know maybe someday if my mindset changes a bit or if I feel like experimenting more with spiritual side I'll do as suggested and do just that. I do like educating myself and that is part of my philosophy after all to learn as much as possible. But for me, I just don't see a reason to explore it as rn. But there is one thing, I can agree with you rn though. I do agree we are just a small drop of water in a larger ocean and that at the end of the day there is still much we don't know. But that's why I say find truth where you believe it is and find meaning in that. To me, the whole reason why I don't worry about God or religious stuff is because that is not where my truth lays. It may have been at one time. But as of rn, it's not. To me the truth is learning more about the physical universe in which we live. If there's anything spiritual to it. I'll just consider that a side note. Because I can imagine, if there is a higher thing beyond ourselves and if it does care about our existence I'm sure it would rather us learn more about the universe that we are in then to learn about it. So we can form our own ideals, Beliefs, morals and cultures and to learn more about this universe while our limited existence in this world allows that. |
| "Even if there isn't a God or meaning behind life. That doesn't mean you can't create your own meaning and make the best out of life." |
Takamura-sama said: I mean that's just Christianity? I have no knowledge over Christianity but I do in Islam. We don't have those "problems" you also should think that the Bible has been changed over the years and there are parts in there that's been written by humans too. The Quran hasn't been changed ever. It has stayed the same since the beginning till now. I think that, with such an old text, you can't know with certainity that it hasn't been changed in some way. There is also no guarantee that the person or people who wrote it first are those they claim to be or that they are truthful in general. I googled it, and I immediately found articles claiming that the Quran really has been changed over time. This one below for example. https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran Regarding the main topic, I wasn't brought up with any religion and therefore I'm not religious. It's difficult for me to believe that manmade texts and teachings indisputably come from a higher power. I could consider joining a modern religion, or a modern interpretation of an old religion, though. |
| can dis sig fit |
Zoushu said: Takamura-sama said: I mean that's just Christianity? I have no knowledge over Christianity but I do in Islam. We don't have those "problems" you also should think that the Bible has been changed over the years and there are parts in there that's been written by humans too. The Quran hasn't been changed ever. It has stayed the same since the beginning till now. I think that, with such an old text, you can't know with certainity that it hasn't been changed in some way. There is also no guarantee that the person or people who wrote it first are those they claim to be or that they are truthful in general. I googled it, and I immediately found articles claiming that the Quran really has been changed over time. This one below for example. https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran Regarding the main topic, I wasn't brought up with any religion and therefore I'm not religious. It's difficult for me to believe that manmade texts and teachings indisputably come from a higher power. I could consider joining a modern religion, or a modern interpretation of an old religion, though. [quote=Zoushu message=57537095] Takamura-sama said: I mean that's just Christianity? I have no knowledge over Christianity but I do in Islam. We don't have those "problems" you also should think that the Bible has been changed over the years and there are parts in there that's been written by humans too. The Quran hasn't been changed ever. It has stayed the same since the beginning till now. I think that, with such an old text, you can't know with certainity that it hasn't been changed in some way. There is also no guarantee that the person or people who wrote it first are those they claim to be or that they are truthful in general. that is not the truth. There recently has been found a very old Quran in I think ireland. It was the same as we know it today. The site is wrong.. |
| In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
Takamura-sama said: RafflesHolmes said: Not really. Personally, I'm an atheist. But I don't mind if someone is religious though. I guess in my case, the reason why I am an atheist comes down to me needing evidence outside of an old book ya know? There's tons of evidence in the Quran. The prophets also performed miracles. For example around the year 620 the Quran was being written by Muhammad with the help of Gabriel who Allah sent. They wrote on how a baby is put on this world.. how we are created how we have a life. The first sperm was found in 680. Embryo's were found in 1700-1800 and what he found was astonishing. The way that he found on how embryos perform and exist is the exact way it's in the Quran. The Quran also was consistent with it's scientific writings in it. There is not a single thing in the Quran that was disproven. The book itself is evidence. If let's say it was written by a human. In the year 620 where nothing scientific was being done and everything was old. Could someone write a book so great and consistent with our year? The book has NEVER been changed unlike the Bible. Could anyone write a book that would still be consistent in research of things that weren't available now but are 1400 years in the future and still be consistent? No one can. This is correct for the most part!!! |
Hikki_a1May 4, 2019 3:42 AM
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-InfiniteLoop- said: Takamura-sama said: Since he created time. There was no time before that so there's no reason/need to believe that he was created. He is outside time altogether and doesn't need a creater. This is the statement that I cannot wrap my head around. I doesn't make sense to me, even if there was no time I still don't understand why there's no need for him to be created. I won't believe something that I cannot comprehend. I also do not understand how the universe was created but I can view it's existence which is why I believe in the possibility of some phenomenon or higher being existing but I will not conclude with any certainty until I understand it. That's why for the moment my answer is "I don't know". You cannot comprehend it because it delves near the realms of metaphysics than reality. You can only approach these types of arguments with the logical validity of the argument, rather than picture the situation in your head. It is, in essence, a topic out of this world anyway. Think of it this way: what ever is beyond our reality is incomprehensible. God created existence therefore his existence is incomprehensible. |
Takamura-sama said: For example around the year 620 the Quran was being written by Muhammad with the help of Gabriel who Allah sent. That is incorrect. The Quran was revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel. The inscription of the Quran only occurred after Muhammad died. People who learned the Quran kept dying overtime and Caliph Omar, I think? Urged his companions to compile the Quran in written form. The Quran was fully collected in Othman's reign. |
Yarub said: -InfiniteLoop- said: This is the statement that I cannot wrap my head around. I doesn't make sense to me, even if there was no time I still don't understand why there's no need for him to be created. I won't believe something that I cannot comprehend. I also do not understand how the universe was created but I can view it's existence which is why I believe in the possibility of some phenomenon or higher being existing but I will not conclude with any certainty until I understand it. That's why for the moment my answer is "I don't know". You cannot comprehend it because it delves near the realms of metaphysics than reality. You can only approach these types of arguments with the logical validity of the argument, rather than picture the situation in your head. It is, in essence, a topic out of this world anyway. Think of it this way: what ever is beyond our reality is incomprehensible. God created existence therefore his existence is incomprehensible. So, everything beyond our reality is incomprehensible? The hypocrisy of this apologist argument is that it only gets applied when someone is making an argument against god. When you're arguing for god, you suddenly know a lot of things about him, he's not so incomprehensible THEN, right? There is, after all, an entire book on what he's like.. Fascinating, how god is both easily understood (so easy that proponents will insist that everything about god should be taught to children starting at age 2), but then he's also incomprehensible as soon as you question anything about him. Convenient, that. If you truly believed god to be incomprehensible, you'd throw out the Quran right now and waste your time on something more constructive. And yeah, that "god created time" argument is just another unfalsifiable claim that nobody could ever hope to produce any evidence for. As always, the double standard that gets applied to religious beliefs is staggering. You'd never let anyone get away with claims like that on literally any other topic. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
Railey2 said: Yarub said: You cannot comprehend it because it delves near the realms of metaphysics than reality. You can only approach these types of arguments with the logical validity of the argument, rather than picture the situation in your head. It is, in essence, a topic out of this world anyway. Think of it this way: what ever is beyond our reality is incomprehensible. God created existence therefore his existence is incomprehensible. So, everything beyond our reality is incomprehensible? The hypocrisy of this apologist argument is that it only gets applied when someone is making an argument against god. When you're arguing for god, you suddenly know a lot of things about him, he's not so incomprehensible THEN, right? There is, after all, an entire book on what he's like.. Fascinating, how god is both easily understood (so easy that proponents will insist that everything about god should be taught to children starting at age 2), but then he's also incomprehensible as soon as you question anything about him. Convenient, that. If you truly believed god to be incomprehensible, you'd throw out the Quran right now and waste your time on something more constructive. And yeah, that "god created time" argument is just another unfalsifiable claim that nobody could ever hope to produce any evidence for. As always, the double standard that gets applied to religious beliefs is staggering. You'd never let anyone get away with claims like that on literally any other topic. Yes, the limit of our consciousness and capabilities are also the limit of reality. We can imagine things within our reality that aren't true, but nothing completely out of it. This is why I mentioned metaphysics in my previous post. Alot of it doesn't make sense and it is the way it is. Really notice that I only employ such types of responses when you ask for the unknown: how does God exist? I don't know, factually. But you can think of it as previously stated in my post to attempt to make sense of the situation. You take God's incomprehensibility as proof of his fallibility, I take his incomprehensibility as a way for me to keep trying to rationalize his existence. Meh, I barely even cite the Quran anymore. Does that count? Edit: Let's go through this, you say: Quran portrays God as comprehensible. God is incomprehensible (you're quoting this from me) I'm rationally correct, therefore Quran is wrong. Which is fine, ok now what? God still exists. You still prove me right, but your issue here is the fact that I'm still Muslim? Well, I have already explained my dissonance on the topic a few weeks ago. It has nothing to do with this at all. |
YarubMay 4, 2019 4:59 AM
| Nope i'm an atheist. I can understand why people may believe in god. Like if they're alone and need to feel like someone is there for them or if they've just been brainwashed as a child to believe in god. If there is a god he really sucks for letting all the terrible stuff that happens go on in the world. Also sort of related, but i love this scene in after life. Just shows how wishy washy religion is. |
| I’m a Christian of Baptist upbringing, and I still consider myself as such. I don’t go to church as often as I used to, so I only go whenever I go to visit my mom. I have been influenced by Reformed theology, though. |
| I'm atheist. I grew up in an evangelical Christian home in which religion was dominant and all-encompassing. Even as a little kid, I was wondering why everyone was so faithful and I simply thought it was weird. Nothing made sense to me. I knew I didn't believe when I was a young teenager but kept it to myself until I was in my early 20s and not reliant on my family. They didn't take it well, and here we are 30 years later (I'm 50) and my dad still gives me a hard time. I have a spiritual side, but it's all connected to nature and harmony rather than the concept of a god who is in control. |
| Although I've already replied to this thread, I'd like to explain some of my background when it comes to religion. I'm atheist/agnostic. I was born Christian and as a small child, I generally went along with whatever my parents told me. I kinda associated 'God' with things like Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. However, when I was told the latter two weren't real, I feel like I also lost my faith in God as well. Traditions were just traditions, so I went to church a few times a year in a similar manner everyone pretends Santa Claus is real in Christmas even if everyone is already old enough to know it's not true. It's just manners, really. There are only two times I remember really wanting to believe or praying. One time I just wanted to win a raffle because I liked the prize (I didn't). The other was me really wanting to break up a physically abusive 'friendship'. In the end, I got tired of waiting for adults or religion to rescue me and just broke the trust of that 'friend' so thoroughly that they didn't want to see me again. I did get beat up thanks to it (which was frankly nothing new), but it worked and my life has been much better ever since. I'm not sure if what I did was healthy, but staying passive and trying to pray definitely did not help me. If anything it just held me back. Here we have a tradition of going to a religious summer camp (or 'confirmation camp') around the time we're in middle school. Because religion is considered to be a rather private topic in my culture, that was the first time I realized that it wasn't just a silly tradition but people honestly believed it to be true which was a shock to me. When I joked about religion, nobody found it funny. Every time I was made to sit in a church or pray I found it painfully boring and chose to daydream instead. When I went to high school, for the first time we had the option to choose not to go to church with class during celebrations. This was because for the first time I was in a school with more than a couple of people from different religions. In that moment I really felt that although I'm not a part of any minority, having a more diverse environment also helped me to be myself (and yes, my previous schools were really that homogeneous). Although on my first year I went to the church with the majority of my class, I noticed that my friends who didn't go were completely fine even though they skipped it. From the second year onward I stayed with them and it was such a relief. I had always felt like churches were so oppressive with people expecting you to think a certain way and it felt like some sort of thought police. Although I wasn't convinced I was an atheist when I stopped going to churches, I realized it when I noticed how it just lifted the weight off my shoulders. I still have no idea exactly why I became atheist or agnostic. Rather than there being a reason for me to not believe, it's more like there wasn't a reason for me to start believing in the first place. From my perspective the only thing I stopped doing was going along with a tradition I found uncomfortable. |
Yarub said: Railey2 said: So, everything beyond our reality is incomprehensible? The hypocrisy of this apologist argument is that it only gets applied when someone is making an argument against god. When you're arguing for god, you suddenly know a lot of things about him, he's not so incomprehensible THEN, right? There is, after all, an entire book on what he's like.. Fascinating, how god is both easily understood (so easy that proponents will insist that everything about god should be taught to children starting at age 2), but then he's also incomprehensible as soon as you question anything about him. Convenient, that. If you truly believed god to be incomprehensible, you'd throw out the Quran right now and waste your time on something more constructive. And yeah, that "god created time" argument is just another unfalsifiable claim that nobody could ever hope to produce any evidence for. As always, the double standard that gets applied to religious beliefs is staggering. You'd never let anyone get away with claims like that on literally any other topic. Yes, the limit of our consciousness and capabilities are also the limit of reality. We can imagine things within our reality that aren't true, but nothing completely out of it. This is why I mentioned metaphysics in my previous post. Alot of it doesn't make sense and it is the way it is. Really notice that I only employ such types of responses when you ask for the unknown: how does God exist? I don't know, factually. But you can think of it as previously stated in my post to attempt to make sense of the situation. You take God's incomprehensibility as proof of his fallibility, I take his incomprehensibility as a way for me to keep trying to rationalize his existence. Meh, I barely even cite the Quran anymore. Does that count? Edit: Let's go through this, you say: Quran portrays God as comprehensible. God is incomprehensible (you're quoting this from me) I'm rationally correct, therefore Quran is wrong. Which is fine, ok now what? God still exists. You still prove me right, but your issue here is the fact that I'm still Muslim? Well, I have already explained my dissonance on the topic a few weeks ago. It has nothing to do with this at all. The Quran isn't wrong. The Quran is the word of Allah. The Quran is perfect |
| In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
Yarub said: let me be clear here. You've proved nothing. The only thing that is true is that, within the frame of this particular worldview that you champion when you say things like "god is incomprehensible", it is logically impossible for the Quran to be a useful book for learning about god in any way shape or form. Because it should be impossible to learn about him if he's incomprehensible.Railey2 said: So, everything beyond our reality is incomprehensible? The hypocrisy of this apologist argument is that it only gets applied when someone is making an argument against god. When you're arguing for god, you suddenly know a lot of things about him, he's not so incomprehensible THEN, right? There is, after all, an entire book on what he's like.. Fascinating, how god is both easily understood (so easy that proponents will insist that everything about god should be taught to children starting at age 2), but then he's also incomprehensible as soon as you question anything about him. Convenient, that. If you truly believed god to be incomprehensible, you'd throw out the Quran right now and waste your time on something more constructive. And yeah, that "god created time" argument is just another unfalsifiable claim that nobody could ever hope to produce any evidence for. As always, the double standard that gets applied to religious beliefs is staggering. You'd never let anyone get away with claims like that on literally any other topic. Yes, the limit of our consciousness and capabilities are also the limit of reality. We can imagine things within our reality that aren't true, but nothing completely out of it. This is why I mentioned metaphysics in my previous post. Alot of it doesn't make sense and it is the way it is. Really notice that I only employ such types of responses when you ask for the unknown: how does God exist? I don't know, factually. But you can think of it as previously stated in my post to attempt to make sense of the situation. You take God's incomprehensibility as proof of his fallibility, I take his incomprehensibility as a way for me to keep trying to rationalize his existence. Meh, I barely even cite the Quran anymore. Does that count? Edit: Let's go through this, you say: Quran portrays God as comprehensible. God is incomprehensible (you're quoting this from me) I'm rationally correct, therefore Quran is wrong. Which is fine, ok now what? God still exists. You still prove me right, but your issue here is the fact that I'm still Muslim? Well, I have already explained my dissonance on the topic a few weeks ago. It has nothing to do with this at all. I'm not taking Gods incomprehensibility as proof of anything, because I don't believe in God, and even if I did I wouldn't necessarily believe that he'd be incomprehensible. I'm just stating that believing in Gods incomprehensibility necessarily makes the Quran a useless work of fiction that tells you absolutely nothing about God. That's what it means to be incomprehensible - it means that no matter how much you think about something, you're never going to make a step towards learning anything useful. But hey, it sounds like you're already an agnostic theist. I don't take much of an issue with that position. @Takamura-sama how do you know that? Because it says so in the Quran. Yeah, great argument. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
Railey2 said: Yarub said: Yes, the limit of our consciousness and capabilities are also the limit of reality. We can imagine things within our reality that aren't true, but nothing completely out of it. This is why I mentioned metaphysics in my previous post. Alot of it doesn't make sense and it is the way it is. Really notice that I only employ such types of responses when you ask for the unknown: how does God exist? I don't know, factually. But you can think of it as previously stated in my post to attempt to make sense of the situation. You take God's incomprehensibility as proof of his fallibility, I take his incomprehensibility as a way for me to keep trying to rationalize his existence. Meh, I barely even cite the Quran anymore. Does that count? Edit: Let's go through this, you say: Quran portrays God as comprehensible. God is incomprehensible (you're quoting this from me) I'm rationally correct, therefore Quran is wrong. Which is fine, ok now what? God still exists. You still prove me right, but your issue here is the fact that I'm still Muslim? Well, I have already explained my dissonance on the topic a few weeks ago. It has nothing to do with this at all. let me be clear here. You've proved nothing. The only thing that is true is that, within the frame of this particular worldview that you champion when you say things like "god is incomprehensible", it is logically impossible for the Quran to be a useful book for learning about god in any way shape or form. Because it should be impossible to learn about him if he's incomprehensible. I'm not taking Gods incomprehensibility as proof of anything, because I don't believe in God, and even if I did I wouldn't necessarily believe that he'd be incomprehensible. I'm just stating that believing in Gods incomprehensibility necessarily makes the Quran a useless work of fiction that tells you absolutely nothing about God. That's what it means to be incomprehensible - it means that no matter how much you think about something, you're never going to make a step towards learning anything useful. But hey, it sounds like you're already an agnostic theist. I don't take much of an issue with that position. @Takamura-sama how do you know that? Because it says so in the Quran. Yeah, great argument. I haven't strived to prove anything anyway. As I said, this is just me trying to make sense of what I can't. Speaking about God, there is only attempting/assuming. The only most appropriate conclusion can be taken into account, because there is no truth to uncover. As I said, I only provide these type of responses when you ask me of what I do not know, because that's the only way I can respond by. Could be, could be, my friend. Believing in religion itself is conditional of having a certain level of blind faith. Being Muslim, you believe God is incomprehensible and yet read about his comprehensibility (when he speaks of himself). To a person who doesn't believe in Islam, there's no other way of going at it. You're probably right. I don't favour the title but you can call me whatever you like. |
Yarub said: That doesn't make sense though, right?Could be, could be, my friend. Believing in religion itself is conditional of having a certain level of blind faith. Being Muslim, you believe God is incomprehensible and yet read about his comprehensibility (when he speaks of himself). To a person who doesn't believe in Islam, there's no other way of going at it. You're probably right. I don't favour the title but you can call me whatever you like. If he talks about himself and the information you're getting makes sense to you, then you are only left with two options. 1) God is not incomprehensible 2) The information you're getting about God isn't true, because any true information about God would be incomprehensible but yeah, you really are an agnostic muslim, I'm almost certain. It's interesting, because here don't seem to be very many muslims who admit to being agnostic. Agnostic Christians on the other hand are way more common. Maybe try googling the phrase "Agnostic Muslim", and you'll come across lots of opinionpieces. I got a feeling that you'd probably identify with most of them. Here, try one of them: https://nation.com.pk/16-Sep-2015/why-i-self-identify-as-an-agnostic-muslim or maybe, for a more high quality write-up, try this. https://thecompanion.in/being-an-agnostic-muslim/ you might really like the last one. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
BallistikJuice said: while in the U.S. (for example) many "consider" themselves as Christians but have boyfriends/girlfriends, drink alcohol "occasionally", and their lifestyle pretty much no different from non-Christian people. Not sure what you're insinuating. Christians date and drink alcohol (even Jesus was cool with it). What is true Christianity to you? in any event, religion does not equal Christianity. |
| I can't understand, even if this universe holds metaphysical mysteries, how are we to even grasp them. But I'll touch metaphysical philosophy soon, probably, and get infuriated because theology seems so much made up as a patchwork to speculate from a paradigm, which is good because it makes philosophy endless but irrelevant for real life at some core aspects. But theism is the worst. Like, why would your creatore have your form and how do you even deduce a moral and a myth from occurrences that might or might have not happened, for life while being necessary certainly is contingent to some scale ? And this morality being subjective and I look for an objective morality, though being sensible to nihilism so it's all vain for me. Any morality happens to coexist with our happiness, survival and those of the species or society... So not even agnostic, I'm just atheist when it comes to societies and religions. Other than that some divinities are really cute but it's all artificial to me. |
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BallistikJuice said: (or even approve sex before marriage) To me it's more baffling someone doesn't approve of it. Contraception exists, so there is no point in being shy about it. Of course, people are free to wait as long as they want to have sex, but I don't think it's right to judge other people solely based on what their relationship status is when they wanna shag. In the end, even a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. |
| I consider myself somewhere in the middle. I'd like to believe there is some form of after life (not reincarnation) but at the same time it just doesn't make sense to me why an after life would exist. |
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| I was raised by atheist parents so I've never been religious. I'm glad they raised me this way. |
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| I wouldn't say that I'm entirely religious, but I do believe that all traditional religions do, more or less successfully, attempt to describe universal metaphysical nature of the universe. So I'm certainly not atheist either. I believe that there are things in the universe that science can't explain (at least at this point in time, but with science being largely populated by ultra-atheists that deny any possibility of that, it never may) and I believe there is some greater (not necessarily sentient and acting with some particular plan in mind however) "being" (if it's acceptable to use that term, as I said it very well may not be being in traditional meaning of the word) that created universe, and by extension us. Though I doubt that we are of particular importance to said "being" compared other things in it. I also believe that some humans may be more perceptive to how universe works than others, and mange to create religions based on such observations. But since that's still subject to some bias, cultural or otherwise, as well as to changes by other individuals for their own purposes over time, I wouldn't put any religion above others. My plan is to study them all, identify universal features that they all share, and base my belief on that. But I think that there is nothing wrong with using one particular religion for these purposes, as long as it's done with common sense and not overly dogmatically. But due to the shortcomings of religions that I mentioned, being overly dogmatic is just as bad as being overly atheistic. In the end extremes of any kind are always bad. But religion can certainly enhance human life, and to bring out the best in humans, if used right. Main issue of religions these days is, and maybe always was, that many people don't use them for spiritual ascension of themselves as individuals, but rather either follow them apathetically for the sake of tradition, or on the other hand are overzealous and miss the real point, or misuse them purely to advance their own secular interest with likely no true belief in it. Overall I guess I'm more spiritual than religious individual. |
MrZawaMay 4, 2019 10:47 AM
| Used to be... I was more of a casual sort like many are than a devout as few do. No longer I am now. |
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| unreligious. I was raised with religion, attending churches as pre-schools and kindergarten. My parents aren't terribly religious so I just didn't follow through with it as I got older. |
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| i went to chruch school when i was young so i was a christian for a little while until i found it too boring and went to play video games and watch tv instead. i exercise almost daily and listen to a lot of audiobooks on the way and alan watts has some fun thoughts on religion (he was a devout christian in the past): 1: Most religions have it so that god created you, he made you, like how someone puts a car together or legos, and in the end when we die, we can ask god "how did you make us?" , "why did you make certain things a certain way?" and he'd say "well I take (x) and (x) ingredients and (x) them all up, etc" and we'd be like "ohhhh! that makes sense". This is the ideal way that we'd like things to go, a nice closure to questions, but ultimately there are things beyond the transcription of language. You beat your heart, you digest food, you pump blood, but can you explain to anyone how you do it? Nope, you just do it out of spontaneity, no explanation, and this is arguably how god will answer questions. "I dunno, i just did it". 2: Most religions are too serious, e.g you can't play and make fun jokes on god because he/she has a stern look. There are no jokers in church, and a place that cannot tolerate humor, is completely insecure. listen to a few of his lectures, they're pretty funny I used to be a "hard science fanatic" about religion and etc, getting the magnifying glass out to find holes and contradictions, then arguing "aha, see, this part doesn't make sense, therefore...." but i've come to realize that this is all just nonsense to boost my ego and to provoke the image that I'm a "hardcore tough person" because I face #facts and etc. These days I try to just float in the middle and joke around both sides, which is funny because my major in technology requires the opposite. |
jesteri said: "God, why did you make it so we get horrible cancer but some animals like whales don't really?"1: Most religions have it so that god created you, he made you, like how someone puts a car together or legos, and in the end when we die, we can ask god "how did you make us?" , "why did you make certain things a certain way?" and he'd say "well I take (x) and (x) ingredients and (x) them all up, etc" and we'd be like "ohhhh! that makes sense". This is the ideal way that we'd like things to go, a nice closure to questions, but ultimately there are things beyond the transcription of language. You beat your heart, you digest food, you pump blood, but can you explain to anyone how you do it? Nope, you just do it out of spontaneity, no explanation, and this is arguably how god will answer questions. "I dunno, i just did it". "ahaaa i just, you know, I threw things together and it just sorta happened ya know idk man I just did it, it's funny to think about right" "oooooh! that makes sense!" I want that Gods head. On a pike. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
Railey2 said: Yarub said: let me be clear here. You've proved nothing. The only thing that is true is that, within the frame of this particular worldview that you champion when you say things like "god is incomprehensible", it is logically impossible for the Quran to be a useful book for learning about god in any way shape or form. Because it should be impossible to learn about him if he's incomprehensible.Yes, the limit of our consciousness and capabilities are also the limit of reality. We can imagine things within our reality that aren't true, but nothing completely out of it. This is why I mentioned metaphysics in my previous post. Alot of it doesn't make sense and it is the way it is. Really notice that I only employ such types of responses when you ask for the unknown: how does God exist? I don't know, factually. But you can think of it as previously stated in my post to attempt to make sense of the situation. You take God's incomprehensibility as proof of his fallibility, I take his incomprehensibility as a way for me to keep trying to rationalize his existence. Meh, I barely even cite the Quran anymore. Does that count? Edit: Let's go through this, you say: Quran portrays God as comprehensible. God is incomprehensible (you're quoting this from me) I'm rationally correct, therefore Quran is wrong. Which is fine, ok now what? God still exists. You still prove me right, but your issue here is the fact that I'm still Muslim? Well, I have already explained my dissonance on the topic a few weeks ago. It has nothing to do with this at all. I'm not taking Gods incomprehensibility as proof of anything, because I don't believe in God, and even if I did I wouldn't necessarily believe that he'd be incomprehensible. I'm just stating that believing in Gods incomprehensibility necessarily makes the Quran a useless work of fiction that tells you absolutely nothing about God. That's what it means to be incomprehensible - it means that no matter how much you think about something, you're never going to make a step towards learning anything useful. But hey, it sounds like you're already an agnostic theist. I don't take much of an issue with that position. @Takamura-sama how do you know that? Because it says so in the Quran. Yeah, great argument. The Quran itself is a miracle. it's the word of Allah himself. the Quran has never been wrong about science or anything else which you could prove. the Quran has even "predicted" science and all our scientific foundings were already in the Quran. Would a book made 1400 years also still be consistent with today's science and still be relevant with no faults whatsoever if the book was not the word of God? no. |
| In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
RafflesHolmes said: Gan_water said: That's very far out man hahah, my school sure didn't have that. In any case I'm merely presenting my view which is that this is far too urgent of a question to go uninvestigated. I feel humans should be doing and trying things to explore our own consciousness and sensory experience. I feel that if anyone does this enough they will see that their own life is just a drop of water in a larger ocean. I know don't worry owo and ya know maybe someday if my mindset changes a bit or if I feel like experimenting more with spiritual side I'll do as suggested and do just that. I do like educating myself and that is part of my philosophy after all to learn as much as possible. But for me, I just don't see a reason to explore it as rn. But there is one thing, I can agree with you rn though. I do agree we are just a small drop of water in a larger ocean and that at the end of the day there is still much we don't know. But that's why I say find truth where you believe it is and find meaning in that. To me, the whole reason why I don't worry about God or religious stuff is because that is not where my truth lays. It may have been at one time. But as of rn, it's not. To me the truth is learning more about the physical universe in which we live. If there's anything spiritual to it. I'll just consider that a side note. Because I can imagine, if there is a higher thing beyond ourselves and if it does care about our existence I'm sure it would rather us learn more about the universe that we are in then to learn about it. So we can form our own ideals, Beliefs, morals and cultures and to learn more about this universe while our limited existence in this world allows that. Oh that's cool, see i understand if it's just a philosophical decision or statement. There can still be a place for atheism hahah. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
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