Gintama.: Shirogane no Tamashii-hen Episode 12 Discussion

GoldenDevilGamer said:


I agree with that, it can definitely be one of the 4 chapter exceptions, I was thinking that myself as I typed it, but said "eh, no biggie", so I'm glad you pointed it out.

crystalblade13 said:
I dont see 3 chapters clean lol, like they haven't done that before in the 2017 anime or even the 2015 anime, and when its action centric(which has less dialogue than the early SS stuff) I dont see that happening(maybe it's just more of being scared since I'd rather have the Episode 4 of this season go to the best fight in the series, because the episode 5 of the series is usually underwhelimg for all the gintama 2017 anime so far

Cloudy said:
I can't believe that I'm saying this but I hated this season. It is the worst one so far and it came after two godlike arcs that left me craving for more Gintama over and over again. I can write a full composition about how each episode fucked up in multiple ways but I don't see any point. All I'm gonna say is that this season was barely animated at all. Most episode were still images swapping at very slow pace. Also all episodes were full comedy and full serious at the same time and... it didn't work out. Adding a little comedy on a serious episode or adding an emotional moment at a comedic episode is awesome when you do it right. And Gintama did that a lot of times in the past. But this season... Everything was so serious all the time yet the made fun of everything again and again. I can't believe that within all this there was an episode all about two guys taking a poop and another one about an alien's race forehead penis.

To sum it up I love Gintama besides this season. I really hope that the story picks up again after the break and that THEY WILL ACTUALLY ANIMATE THE REST. At this point it's just the manga colored with music in the background.

SenpaiJay98 said:


They've done 3 chapters clean multiple times, like the first episode of this season for example.

And once again, I don't believe there's any evidence for this "4 episode rule". Episode 4 of SA was the worst episode it had, and FSs 4th episode was just average. You are overthinking it.

I honestly think they'de have to rush like crazy to hit episode 4 for that fight, and I'd take slow pacing over rushing every day of the week.

crystalblade13 said:
I said Episode 4 for the 2017 anime, and they have done 3 chapters a episode before, but not consist(especially for action based chapters like chapter 635 and onward)

SenpaiJay98 said:
There's no such thing as an episode 4 rule. It's just pure luck.

GoldenDevilGamer said:
I know it's just a unoffical thing, but history has shown so far with the 2017 Gintama and if history repeats again for a 4th time then it's not a fluke lol

SenpaiJay98 said:


I think it just happened to be that high-level animation worthy moments have popped up in episode 4 of the 2017 seasons. The best general fight (zura's) in rakuyo, the best half of the most serious arc in porori, and the meeting of utsuro again for the 2nd time in SS.

I think it's just coincidence that these great moments have happened in episode 4, and as such- have gotten good animation.

Do you think, hypothetically, if a full blown utsuro battle were to happen in episode 5 of a season, they wouldn't do it justice cause it's not an arbitrary certain episode number?

crystalblade13 said:
They didn't do the Ougai, Yato, Utsuro vs Umibozu(2nd half), Kamui(I thought this one was just ok, like it's not even better animated than Kagura vs Abuto or any of the Hosen fight episodes) fight justice, so I have no reason why they would do the a Utsuro fight that's not even the final one(and I don't even think they'll do the final one justice either since it's in the 2nd half of the season when usually the animation declines each 2017 season and censoring reasons) justice after a big sakuga episode happened, and like I said pacing wise I don't see why they would have three clean 3 chapters per episode when the content from 635 onward is mostly action heavy

SenpaiJay98 said:


Don't see why we have to limit it to 2017 here since it's still BNP. But they did takasugi vs gin (middle/ late part of SA), and kagura vs kamui justice. They did the first utsuro fight justice when it came to him and gin fighting anyway, and most of the top class animation in FS was in the later half (though episode 1 of FS was gorgeous).

Rakuyo's late game fights looked better than it's early game fights minus the Katsura episode. So that's still the later 6 episodes looking better than the first 6 episodes overall. Plus rakuyo's final episode was its best looking episode outside the Katsura one.

With SS, there aren't that many large scale fights in this cour. The most important was the first utsuro encounter battle, and the first 2 battles against the 3 great races. Obviously ougais battle wasn't adapted very well, but the shinra fight was pretty nice looking, though it's still beaten out by the utsuro encounter fight. As far as the episodes overall, it's been consistent, throughout the whole run there were some nice fully animated battles against the fodders, but also some parts with still frames. Arts been great throughout though, so I certainly wouldn't say the first half of SS blows the second half out of the water or anything like that.

crystalblade13 said:
I talked about 2017 since it's the most consistent so far with having episode 4 be the best 3 cours in a row, and stop comparing stuff from the 2015 anime(because 2015 had a stronger staff compared to the 2017 anime production)

And I'm not saying that the Utsuro fight will look bad just that it won't do it justice because of censoring reasons and the production so far

SenpaiJay98 said:


But I answered the episode 4 thing by saying that those episodes were just coincidentally important moments that deserved good animation. Sorachi put the events in the early chapters and they happened to be important enough to produce as well as possible. Though the sorachi thing doesn't account for porori obviously.

And comparing 2015 is perfectly valid, as all I'm showing is that BNP opted to use their best resources on later battles in those arcs, which is simply a decision they'de make before production on the episodes began. The stronger staff doesn't matter at all here. I'm just showing evidence that they decided to sacrifice early episodes (like episode 4 of SA) to make later episodes have the time/ resources they needed. It's just a directing decision. And this is still BNP and many of the same people involved.

crystalblade13 said:
and the events next season are episode 4(whether it's the fight or the things before the fight...u know what happend) and based off the track record(from the 2017 anime production) one of those things will be the best animated things from next cour

And the reason I saying 201 doesn't count is because 2017 is a different production(like the animator that did the best parts of takasugi vs gintoki in episode 305, episode 214 shines right, saito vs katsura, and utsuro vs gintoki doesnt work in the 2017 production

SenpaiJay98 said:


It's possible, the Katsura fight was the 10-12th chapter of its arc. And it was episode 4. But the "big fight we are taking about will be the 13-15 or 16th chapter of its cour in this case. So maybe it'll hit episode 4, maybe it'll hit 5. Just consider this: we are gonna be covering 36 chapters this cour most likely. I personally don't think it's a good idea to cover 15 to 16 chapters of that in the first 3rd of the cour (episode 4). Pacing wise, if we do go for an average of 3 chapters an episode, that'd be perfect. 3x12=36.

crystalblade13 said:
at least chapters 641-644 would be getting amazing animation(since it's one of the most critical moments of that mini arc)

SenpaiJay98 said:


So you'd be willing to throw the whole season under the bus pacing wise, to get that episode to be episode 4, even though there's a high chance that being episode 4 means nothing.

They're gonna animate things however they want. Even going by the 2017 seasons, there's no evidence that they run out of money/ time part way through or anything like that. Once again, rakuyo's best looking episode outside the Katsura one, was its final episode. And late game SS looked fine outside of 1 episode.

And I doubt very heavily that they won't put a lot of time and effort into the late game battle of the upcoming cour.

crystalblade13 said:
I'm just being realistic on how history has been with the 2017 Gintama so far(like how they pace things weird at time and don't do clean adaptations of 3 chapters per episode for like 3-5 episodes straight), and I wouldn't be surprised if they adapt to 668 in like episode 10 lol, mostly because the chapters later on are like 15 pages when you take the recap out and mostly action packed)

SenpaiJay98 said:


Nah, they are gonna end it with a cliffhanger at 668, or 669 at the latest. Sorachi isn't gonna be done with the manga most likely by the time they reach that point, so I'm sure they'll play it safe and air it in 3 cours overall. So in order to have good pacing, I think we will be hitting an average of 3 chapters, that means 2 chapter, 4 chapter, 3.5 chapter, and the like can and will happen, but it will still average out around 3 I'm almost positive- it's best for the staff and the fans.

crystalblade13 said:
I mean...they ended this cour 3 chapters(chapters 629-631) into the start of Part 2 of the Silver Soul arc, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just end it at a weird point in cour 2 like chapter 673(since the next ccour is coming out in July they are allowed to have 13 Episodes this time compared to 12 because of timeslot reasons) just to fuck with fans but also end on a mysterious cliffhanger that sets up the rest of Part 3(especially since the content can be adapted way faster compared to the first half since it's more action packed, has less pages or more recap, and less dialogue all compared to the first part of the arc), and like I said(time after time) they don't do 3 chapter per episode things all clean like that 3-5 episodes in a row, and since the content isn't dialogue heavy(compared to the first half) at the start to make a 2 chapter per episode i'm having a hard time they would do that fir the first half of cour 2(the only time I see them doing 2 chapters is the stuff at Chapter 648 and 649, and Chapter 654 and 655...which are both not dialogue heavy enough to be 2 chapters only...and most likely will be 3 chapters or 2.5 chapters adaptation since the dialogue isn't even comparable to dialogue heavy material like Episode 343...this one was 2 chapters only btw)

SenpaiJay98 said:


I think it'd be really odd to actually go into the content of part 3 of the arc in any capacity in the second cour. Maybe the first chapter but that's it. Just think of how much more hype/ excitement would be created from a cliffhanger at 668 or 669 compared to 673. That would be a mind-blowingly odd choice on the studios part to cliffhanger on 673. Think of the OPs and EDs too. Part 3s content being reflected in the OP/ ED would be basically impossible in the second cour, without completely altering the imagery or ignoring what's going on in the story.

And I know it's not 3 clean all the time. I said an average of 3. Since 3x12=36 (the amount of chapters the next cour should cover if the studio wants to leave off right at the start of part 3). That means 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4 chapter adaptations and the like will happen, but they will still cover what roughly 3 chapters an episode would cover (36 chapters, or possibly 37).

Salamak said:

Okikagura is so popular that there's a new series kid sougo, and i sooo want a spin off of this. It's the cutest thing ever.
Gin×tskuyo is the best pair, man i wished they get together somehow..

JizzyHitler said:
takasugi's return was too hype so it put the show on hiatus




I wouldnt put too much hope in this show conluding any of the romantic pairings regardless of popularity or unpopularity, judging from how the manga is going its getting more of a kick making fun of romance in shounen and its cliches rather than actually following it. I think at best the only real possibility is the characters will be placed into a situation that doesn't make a pairing utterly impossible.

Salamak said:

I think the otae kondo one finally reaches a destination tho
I have no hopes for others either. And okikagura is already a thing

JizzyHitler said:
I think sougo and kagura is the least likley one and most likley to be placed into an impossible scenario. Far from already being a thing.

crystalblade13 said:
I only said chapter 673 of its 13 episodes, but I think 669 will be the ending if its 12 episodes

As for the opening and ending they usually swap it out on the last 2 episodes or change it slightly(like this cour for example)

And I mentioned 3 chapters thing because I know your talking about 3 chapters average, but I'm saying that chapters 632-646 is mostly action and not a lot of dialogue so most likely it's going to be 3-4 chapters per epipsde adaptation..hence why I think we'll get at least the start of that fight on episode 4, and I think they'll slow it down in he middle since that has more dialogue...then speed it up again for the final act of Part 2 of the silver soul arc

Salamak said:

why tho? i mean maybe we need a big time skip or something for that to happen..not that it actually happens, but i doubt we hit a scenario where this relationship becomes impossible..

JizzyHitler said:
Cause its fairly obvious sorachi never really intended to make those characters romantic, it just sort of was viewed that way in the fandom, but even after such a massive following they never really ever teased anything with it even when romantic themed jokes were the centerpiece.

And the main reason i think pretty much no pairing will happen, is just knowing whats actually happening right now in the "epilogue" of the series which, without spoiling anything, is going out of its way to make fun of shounen jump's romantic subplots being hastily wrapped up to the point of rendering multiple pairings that you'd think are safe out of commission. Im just giving the fair warning, do not get your hopes up for any pairings aside from a few ones that no one asked for done solely as a joke. You an take your chances but i think you'll end up disappointed.

GoldenDevilGamer said:
Well, it exists, but it's not popular in Japan. Most of Gin's pairings from the fanbase tends to be shounen ai ones, mainly because Gintama's Japanese fanbase primarily consists of a female demograpic. OkiKagu is super, super popular among the fanbase though.

Yep, that's Kamui, and Umibouzu...

crystalblade13 said:


The animation was no where near that bad, go to sakugabooru.com and look at the Gintama section. This season had many, many well animated parts and great art throughout.

Also, "hate"!? I know it's your opionion, but really!? Even though it's the first half that's mostly setting things up, there's more great/ awesome/ hilarious moments than I can count. As far as the seriousness and comedy goes sorachi mixed them together brilliantly. Like that the neo Armstrong cannon was actually foreshadowed in comedy, and the fact that kin and tama powered it makes it seem like sorachi planned that from the beginning with their names and whatnot. I don't get how any Gintama fan could hate this season when it encapsulates everything awesome about the show as a whole.

Aardwolf94 said:


Damm, why do the Japanese have such shit taste..I heard even Gintoki x Otae is more popular there.

Could this be a reason, why Tsukuyo has been shafted post Love Potion (I heard that arc wasnt received well there)?

GoldenDevilGamer said:
Gin x Otae was popular a long time ago, definitely not as popular now. That's primarily because more people are will to ship Otae with Kondo instead post-FS arc. Tsukuyo is definitely popular in Japan (she's almost always beating Otae in the rankings, and was even able to rank at 9th in the recent popularity polls, despite having a very little role in the final arc). However, she's not popular when it comes to ships. Straight pairings with Gintoki, in general, are not popular at all. Gintama's fanbase is probably 3/4 female, which means its fanbases prefers more bromances than romances (unless we're talking about Okita and Kagura). This is why arcs like Soul Switch are much more well-received than Love Potion.

Talking about the Love Potion arc, it was pretty well-received. Though, it happened in the manga right after the Afro arc, which really boosted Gintama's ranking, so the Love Potion arc ended up dropping Gintama back to where it normally remains (the lower half of Shounen Jump's rankings). As for Tsukuyo being shafted... tbh, every female character besides Kagura got shafted in the final arc. And that's why Sorachi tried to add all those important roles to women in the first part of the arc (where characters like Kyuubei getting the spotlight and her accepting her gender, Tama sacrificing herself), because Sorachi knew that these characters won't have any real significance plot-wise. With Enshou being an antagonist created to be Katsura, Sakamoto and Takasugi's opponent, and Utsuro being an opponent for Yorozuya and Yatos (and maybe add the Shinsengumi in there because their popularity can ensure them any role whatsoever), every other Gintama character is kinda just shafted. And this is exactly why Sorachi spent the first part of the final arc on supporting characters (characters like Hata and Elizabeth getting a flashback).

Went on a tangent for a bit, but basically Tsukuyo got the same treatment as every Gintama character that's not a Yorozuya/Yato/Shinsengumi/old-Jouishishi member, during the final arc. It's expected, but still a shame. Though considering the current events in the manga, supporting characters might get more screen-time and relevance later on.

Aardwolf94 said:


Wonder why women like this series more than men? I mean I guess the male characters are attractive for them but otherwise I wouldn't say it panders to them. Anyway by bromances you mean= yaoi ships right? Because many female fans of any series love to pair up the male characters...

That would explain the lack of popularity for Gintoki x Tsukuyo. I even heard that the Love Potion OVA didn't sell that well.

Huge shame imho, especially since Tsukuyo got so much development (she was important in 3 serious arcs) and her relationship with Gintoki was explored well but then after Love Potion it was like she disappeared (not just the final arc). And she didn't even get much in the first half of the final arc..

I feel like Kyubei and Tama definitely got better moments to shine and they weren't nearly as well developed as Tsukuyo.

And yeah I have been catching up on the manga, its an interesting turn of events but I doubt Tsukuyo will get more than a cameo. Feels like Sorachi just lost interest in the character

GoldenDevilGamer said:
When I said bromances, I meant both yaoi ships and simple interactions between the male cast. Any Gintoki and Hijikata focused chapter is bound to get higher rankings, not only because of the fujoshi fanbase, but also because the female fanbase finds their character relationship to be the most amusing. Gintama having a large female fanbase is mainly because the cast is filled with older bishounen-looking characters. And gag comedies tend to appeal to the female demographic (surprisingly). And considering how Gintama's supposed to be a parody of shounen, it might end up appealing to non-shounen fans instead. That could probably be the reason why the manga sales dropped ever since the SA-arc, since Gintama became what it originally was parodying.

I guess the fact that Tsukuyo played a major role in many serious arcs is what caused Sorachi to put her in the background during the final arc. Characters like Kyuubei and Tama never actually participated in any serious arcs iirc (or have done nothing noteworthy), so the final arc was their only chance. Luckily, both of their roles felt suited in the story and didn't feel disjointed with the rest of the arc.

But I hope that Tsukuyo has more than just a cameo later on. Hopefully her high popularity rankings encourages Sorachi to give her more of a role.

Aardwolf94 said:


Well its not like the serious arcs are anything new..the difference is just that since SA the series has become more plot driven & the episodic style was dropped but Gintama always had more "typical" Shounen arcs. If anything the last two arcs brought a lot of the comedy back (especially first half of SS), usually serious arcs barely have any (see Yoshiwara).

Anyway definitely wish that there were more male fans, this series is overall great and doesn't need to rely on fujoshi.

Maybe but I just don't get why he would put so much effort into a character and then just drop her.If anything because she was an important part of 3 serious arcs & so well developed she should get an overall important role in the last arc..instead she may as well be not there.

Great that Kyubei and Tama got to shine a bit obviously.

Well I'm not getting my hopes up, I dont think Sorachi cares about her character anymore. But as long as the overall quality is great I don't mind too much (but its still disappointing).

GoldenDevilGamer said:
I guess it's the permanent change to serious arc that probably make Gintama lose a bit of its fanbase (particularly those that watch Gintama solely for the comedy). And I think the appeal to Gintama was that it's comedic structure allowed anyone to read from the middle of the series and get a bunch of laughs. The reason why the volume sales were high was probably because of its accessibility. After it's shift to a more plot-oriented structure, only those that have read Gintama from the beginning are probably sticking to the series. But yeah, the SS arc can almost be considered as a semi-serious arc due to it's large doses of comedy.

Same, I wished the Gintama fanbase in Japan was a bit more diverse, which would allow Sorachi not to depend solely on one demographic's wishes.

I think Sorachi has the mentality that Tsukuyo already got her time to shine, so it's okay to let her be for now. I wish she got a major fight, just like Kyuubei.

The only way I see Tsukuyo getting any chance to shine is if Sorachi introduces more fodder villains, and gives Tsukuyo a fight with one of them. But at this point, this series should be over with fodder villains. Three were introduced, then defeated in Rakuyou. Then three were introduced, then defeated again in SS. But yeah, I don't mind too much since the current events in the manga are quite amusing.

Aardwolf94 said:


Very true, since Gintama became more serialized you basically have to keep up with it or you wouldn't get the story. Before SA, you could easily skip a few chapters and apart from some fun not much would be lost.

I love the plot driven serious direction (if anything I wanted SS's first half to be more serious) and I'm glad Sorachi went this way. If it was still an episodic comedy it wouldn't fit.

Yeah he basicaly has to pander to them to an extent, but I dont think the quality of Gintama suffered because of that. Still either way this series deserves more popularity.

A fight would have been enough but sadly she didnt even get that. True, even though Tsukuyo is easily my favourite female character, since she lives in Yoshiwara and isnt directly connected with Gintoki (like annoying Otae is, like she is boring af but automatically gets more screentime because of Shinpachi) its not easy to involve her in the story. Thats why the war was the perfect opportunity but Sorachi wasted it for shit reasons.

There was plenty of unnecessary stuff in SS's first half especially so its not like there wasnt any time