| (This might be ranty af, but I will try to leave it as open for discussion as I can.) So if you've subjected yourself to the radioactive material that is the anime community as much as I have, you have probably noticed at least a fair few people holding the belief that older (I'll define this by pre-2000's anime) anime is absolutely better than the more recent stuff. Of course, this attitude/belief is not unique to the anime/manga community. The "born in the wrong generation" syndrome applies to just about all media. However, it is hard to deny that the attitude is much more widespread in the anime community. Just about every single comments section on every single popular anime video will have THAT GUY. You know the guy who makes claims like "oh the anime industry is dead, it's dying, it's all just moeshit ecchi bullshit for pedos now. Where is muh deep philosophical stuff and my cowboi beeboo" . In contrast you will often have to go out of your way to niche forums to see equivalent attitudes/beliefs being expressed among videogame and movie fandoms. So I have observed that there are several likely reasons for this: 1.) Old anime IS actually better(?) - Pre-2000's anime were generally more marketable to wider audiences, particularly western audiences. Science fiction was a common backdrop, violence was often prioritised over sexual titulation, cel animation often looked grittier, and more detailed (in still frames, at least). There was also no "audience inbreeding" such as Light Novel adaptations which require the viewer to already be invested in "otaku culture" or even the source material itself to at all appreciate. In general older anime often focused more on narrative, specifically conveying that narrative in a more subtle way. 2.) Old anime ISN'T actually better, it's just easy for a lot of people to see it that way. - Survivorship bias ensures that the only media from each era to maintain public-awareness are those which are agreed by critics to be good or even the best of their respective era. Many people have fondness for media from the past that they associate positive childhood memories with. It can be hard for subsequent media to compete with nostalgia as a result. 3.) Lack of knowledge and investment in modern anime - "it's all just moeshit ecchi bullshit for pedos now." well, it clearly isn't. Ecchi anime makes up a tiny percentage of the seasonal output for the last few years. As an example, just 5 (five) of the 49 new TV series airing this season have the ecchi or harem genre tag on MAL. 10 of these series are considered to be Slice of Life. Action is still clearly the most dominant genre in anime and although many of these action shows do have ecchi/SoL/"moe" elements, they are simply reflecting the trends of the time. Just like how many non-mecha 80's anime adopted many mecha traits because it was the defining archetype of that time period. This isn't even mentioning the variety of critically acclaimed shows released since 2007 such as HxH, Madoka Magica Ping Pong the Animation, Gurren Lagann etc. and hidden gems such as Kyousougiga and Redline. Even if you personally hate all of those mentioned examples you have to acknowledge that they are all very different from how your standard "old stuff was better" guy perceives modern anime. I acknowledge that by ranting about this topic for the umpteenth time I am just preaching to the choir and adding fuel to the fire, but why do you think that the "old stuff was better" attitude is so prevalent among the anime community? Is it based in ignorance and nostalgia, or do these people have valid concerns about the state of modern anime? Since I do find it always good to critique the status quo of any media, but at the same time dislike attitudes such as nostalgia for its own sake, I would say that it's a bit of both. |
LobindeAug 8, 2016 4:06 PM
Wensbane said: It's not just anime, it's present in the music and in the movie communities as well. So yeah, it's basically everywhere... Yes but I would argue that it's not as common. As I said the "retro always wins" attitude can be found just about every single day on anime forums like this and on just about every popular anime video, whereas in other media you would often have to go out of your way to see it. Hell, I've heard people saying this stuff about anime in real life, I've never heard anyone say to me that all modern music sucks and only old music is good in real life |
| No, those peoples exist in every media: music, movies, videogames, dance, etc. They are just peoples who like to live in past, is hard to analyze them, because they are ambigous creatures. About pre-2000 anime being better, that is totally wrong! Most of the pre-2000 anime where CRAP! There are a shit load f them out there that nobody watches too, because they are shit or at least very average. Yes its easy to live today and watch a short list of decent anime made then and say they where good... and that is what happens. Actually if you ask those peoples to give you some good old anime they will tell you about: Ghst in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Monster and few othes... in the best case they will have a list of a maximum of 20 decent anime, that where made in an over 10 year time span. MAL has the anime seasonal list, and you can check the charts with the anime produced since the 40's. As you will check each season (I did it), you will realise that the vast majority of the anime produced then (90%) passed by unoticed, because they had nothing memorable. They wheren't made to be amazing, they where made to make some money by selling few hundreds or thousands VHS's to renting stores. So is really worth to say that those anime where better due to a pathetic 10%? Today there are produced like 4 times more anime in a season than it was in the '90s. The ammount of good anime produced in a year, is far superior to that era, just like how the number of unmemorableaime is higher too. |
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| Lmao, I can count the people who thought like that that I met on MAL over the last 6 years with my fingers. On the other hand I literally encountered hundreds and thousands of people thinking that new = automatically better without having any arguments to back that up. I don't know what you're on but in the day to day reality of the community it is very much the other way around. I can't really fathom how you'd come to think otherwise unless you're delusional or actively seeking out only those kinds of fans on a daily basis while ignoring the 99,9% of the community that is neutral or thinks newer is always better. Basically forcefully biasing yourself for some reason. When it comes to music this attitude is much more prevalent. I've recently gotten a lot into 80s music and literally every youtube video has some people in the comments talking about being born in the wrong decade or how 'that was still real music, nowadays we only got justin bieber' and other bullshit. So I can't take you seriously with your 'theory'. Not at all. it's exactly the other way around in the anime community. Just look at the fucking toplists or how many people have watched any old anime. Almost nobody does and from the ones that do 90% watch and enjoy new anime as well. People who dare to enjoy old anime and not find them inherently inferior to anything new are already hated and bashed on by the community as it is (while the opposite, blindly refusing anything old and worshipping anything new is seen as reasonable and normal. I've been there a few dozens times so I would know) so we REALLY don't need more witchhunters like you who for some reason have an agenda to completely discredit anyone who doesn't share their views on old anime. It's toxic. And not even necessary. People already have no respect for old anime and people who enjoy them. It's depressing to see someone put this much effort into further discrediting them. What happened to make you that dedicated to persecuting an extreme minority? Did someone not like your favorite anime and preferred something that's older? There must be some specific history to it to make you bash them so much... |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| It's pretty simple in my eyes. It's not as if older anime was objectively better, you just tend to remember the good stuff. I can't even specifially remember most of the shitty shows i've seen, but the stuff i liked sticks with me. Since all the shows i've seen are in the past, the older stuff seems better. The same applies to music, movies etc. |
WHEN THE SEASON LINEUP IS ACTUALLY GOOD  |
| No, cause your wrong. It only seems prevalent to you cause you're not that deep into anything else. You're deep into anime, which is already niche. Songs from the fucking 2000's alone had people saying that this is real music, let alone the hipsters listening to stuff from the 80's. |
| every single one of my forum posts is dumb and invalid except for 1, I don't claim them it was a different person it was all fake |
| Probably because animation has changed (art styles, especially) a lot over time, while other types of media still have the same ugly human beings. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Bullshit. It's just as prevalent in cinema, music and gaming. For good reason. The forerunners innovated, while the later products copy what sells and take fewer risks in industries far bigger and riskier. Nobody wants to make a unique video game that costs millions upon millions of dollars, competing against countless other popular tripe A games, just as PlayStation will never make a new controller better suited to modern gaming because they're afraid the masses won't like change. Games in general are easier and more streamlined than ever and they always shoehorn popular mechanics, to appeal to as many people as possible. Cinema is filled with Oscar bait and focus tested blockbusters. Anime is filled with anime-loving otaku artists disconnected from reality. The forefathers didn't have decades and decades of anime to derive their work from. They had to innovate and base their work on reality and other media. Modern anime is largely masturbatory, deriving from itself and pandering to the corrupted otaku masses. |
EzekielAug 8, 2016 1:42 PM
| Its much more common in Music and Movies communities than in Anime, what are you smoking? Gaming on the other hand is stable with a slightly advantage to the late 00's and 2011,2013,2015. Gaming is the only medium that got massively better after the year 2000, and i played many games from 80's and 90's. Anime is also stable, but it got slightly downhill after 2012 |
Dr-EyesAug 8, 2016 1:28 PM
Pullman said: Lmao, I can count the people who thought like that that I met on MAL over the last 6 years with my fingers. On the other hand I literally encountered hundreds and thousands of people thinking that new = automatically better without having any arguments to back that up. I don't know what you're on but in the day to day reality of the community it is very much the other way around. I can't really fathom how you'd come to think otherwise unless you're delusional or actively seeking out only those kinds of fans on a daily basis while ignoring the 99,9% of the community that is neutral or thinks newer is always better. Basically forcefully biasing yourself for some reason. You must be lucky or I must be unlucky then, because my experience is different. I see this stuff on a regular basis. As unreliable as youtubers usually are lots of anime youtubers do make videos addressing the "is anime DEAD?" discussion for a reason, because the accusation that anime is dead/dying is regularly brought up. Pullman said: When it comes to music this attitude is much more prevalent. I've recently gotten a lot into 80s music and literally every youtube video has some people in the comments talking about being born in the wrong decade or how 'that was still real music, nowadays we only got justin bieber' and other bullshit. Okay this is true. But just look in the comments for This video and tell me that these comments are not at least somewhat comparable to the stuff you would see on 80's music videos. Pullman said: So I can't take you seriously with your 'theory'. Not at all. it's exactly the other way around in the anime community. Just look at the fucking toplists or how many people have watched any old anime. Almost nobody does and from the ones that do 90% watch and enjoy new anime as well. Calling it a theory is giving me too much credit. This is more like a hypothesis or a brain fart. I'm not trying to say that the old "stuff was better argument" is the most accepted or common point of view in the anime community. Obviously these people are a vocal minority but they are still greater in proportion compared to other media, 10% that don't watch and enjoy new anime too is still a greater percentage than in other media. (of course however, the percentages we're playing around with here are completely imaginary). Pullman said: People who dare to enjoy old anime and not find them inherently inferior to anything new are already hated and bashed on by the community as it is (while the opposite, blindly refusing anything old and worshipping anything new is seen as reasonable and normal. I've been there a few dozens times so I would know) so we REALLY don't need more witchhunters like you who for some reason have an agenda to completely discredit anyone who doesn't share their views on old anime. I don't recall saying anything about old anime that wasn't positive in my original post. Pullman said: It's toxic. And not even necessary. People already have no respect for old anime and people who enjoy them. It's depressing to see someone put this much effort into further discrediting them. What happened to make you that dedicated to persecuting an extreme minority? Did someone not like your favorite anime and preferred something that's older? There must be some specific history to it to make you bash them so much... Again, I'm not bashing people for liking old anime, if I'm bashing anyone it's people who like old anime AND have their heads in the sand when it comes to liking new anime, I dislike when people act like new anime is the only stuff that's good too but I don't see those people often enough for it to occur to my mind when I made this thread. |
| I think its equally popular as in other media. @Lobinde under the video you posted they are only angry at the ton of moe blob that comes out every season, i mean only 1 said "Why is there no good anime like EP anymore, only moeshit" but thats basically him being mad at the genre that is targeted that much. |
SpaghettiSpikeAug 8, 2016 1:33 PM
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
kronopy said: No, those peoples exist in every media: music, movies, videogames, dance, etc. They are just peoples who like to live in past, is hard to analyze them, because they are ambigous creatures. About pre-2000 anime being better, that is totally wrong! Most of the pre-2000 anime where CRAP! There are a shit load f them out there that nobody watches too, because they are shit or at least very average. Yes its easy to live today and watch a short list of decent anime made then and say they where good... and that is what happens. Actually if you ask those peoples to give you some good old anime they will tell you about: Ghst in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Monster and few othes... in the best case they will have a list of a maximum of 20 decent anime, that where made in an over 10 year time span. MAL has the anime seasonal list, and you can check the charts with the anime produced since the 40's. As you will check each season (I did it), you will realise that the vast majority of the anime produced then (90%) passed by unoticed, because they had nothing memorable. They wheren't made to be amazing, they where made to make some money by selling few hundreds or thousands VHS's to renting stores. So is really worth to say that those anime where better due to a pathetic 10%? Today there are produced like 4 times more anime in a season than it was in the '90s. The ammount of good anime produced in a year, is far superior to that era, just like how the number of unmemorableaime is higher too. Are you aware that you are basically predetermining the conclusion and then applying that conclusion to prove it? That's redundant and illogical. You go ahead and say the only anime worth mentioning from those decades are the 5-10 big titles whose names you already know and then conclude that this means any other series you see in the seasonal charts is not worth watching because you haven't heard about it. But that's now how it works. How can you know if something is good or not without watching it? There are plenty of amazing anime from the 70s, 80s and 90s beyond Bebop and Ghost in the Shell and whatever 3-5 other extremely popular titles you know from those decades (Monster isn't even pre-2000). But it is extremely ignorant to judge that just because you haven't heard of the other shows you see while browsing old seasonals they're all shit. You'd have to actually watch them to be able to say that with confidence. But all you did is first decide which anime are worth watching and then acting all surprised that only those few anime you decided on beforehand jumped out to you when you browsed the seasonals. Do you see how prejudiced that is? I sure hope you do, for your sake. What people like you also always ignore is that the industry worked extremely different back then. Most shows were either long-runners or direct to video productions, both things that show not up on seasonal charts in the traditional sense. You had less shows, but more of these individual shows. One good show might be relevant in 8 consecutive seasons while 1 good show today is usually over after 1 or sometimes 2 cours. These fundamental differences in how series are produced and marketed result in very different strengths and weaknesses. If the strengths of the 80s and 90s (long, dedicated shows, certain genres being strongly represented, cel animation, no cgi etc..) are more appealing to you than the strengths of the post-2000 anime (digital coloring palette with more variety, high resolution, better sound quality, large variety of genres and shows in general etc..) those can be objective reasons to prefer one over the other. Of course that goes in both directions but people usually need a lot less convincing that newer anime is not inherently inferior than they need convincing that older anime isn't almost exclusive outdated shit. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| It's actually a thing in all forms of entertainment and the way I see it the older people look back to a time when they had stuff they enjoyed and to them it was actually better because that's what they're used to and can appreciate. The younger people who say old stuff is better fall into two groups: People who actually enjoy old stuff more for their own reasons or edgelords who want to feel special because they like the classics. At least that's what I think. |
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RainyRai said: No, cause your wrong. It only seems prevalent to you cause you're not that deep into anything else. You're deep into anime, which is already niche. Songs from the fucking 2000's alone had people saying that this is real music, let alone the hipsters listening to stuff from the 80's. I was deep into videogames until about six months ago, I only saw the "old stuff is better" attitude being widespread on forums/discussions specific to old games and genres, with the few people saying it in modern game discussion boards usually being disagreed with by the majority. In contrast, most of the time I see a "anime is all moeshit now!!" style comment on youtube or some other place with post rating it will have at least a decent amount of upvotes. |
| it's like with music or movies. no one would watch the mediocre mecha anime from 1988 - only the good things are remembered and watched nowadays. -> reducing 30 years with hundreds of anime to 20-50 shows |
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| Nostalgia is too strong, both now and before have great anime. Also, back then people only watched the "good stuff", that is the ones that actually came to the west side, while now the average and bad anime are available too. |
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Nigami_Shin said: it's like with music or movies. no one would watch the mediocre mecha anime from 1988 - only the good things are remembered and watched nowadays. -> reducing 30 years with hundreds of anime to 20-50 shows I agree, but to play the devil's advocate the current decade could also be reduced to about 10 shows. But what can be discerned from this is that the amount of media that stands the test of time is staggeringly low. |
Nigami_Shin said: I agree, most people will watch maybe a couple dozen anime in total from 30 years of anime before 2000 while watching even the worst shows every new season.it's like with music or movies. no one would watch the mediocre mecha anime from 1988 - only the good things are remembered and watched nowadays. -> reducing 30 years with hundreds of anime to 20-50 shows |
| I don't understand what "community" Lobinde is talking about. MAL users ? Then I think Lobinde's depiction of the community is just not based in reality. EDIT, 11 posts posted inbetween : ah, ok, this is about youtube comments, and such. Well, then, I'm out, got nothing to do with that. /EDIT (wondering wether I still have this signature - I turned signatures off time ago ... anyways : saying "not watching any old stuff because old is a dumb approach" is not the same as saying "all old stuff is good". ) |
BannoBunka_snorkAug 8, 2016 1:53 PM
| *darn, using my right hand is off-limits for a while. Typing with my left hand only is ... eww.* |
| Well no, I'd say these kinds of threads are maybe less common in the music and film communities because it's second nature for a lot of them to think that way, and they even have a professional critical circle that basically thinks and rates that way, which is something that anime obviously lacks |
Lobinde said: Pullman said: Lmao, I can count the people who thought like that that I met on MAL over the last 6 years with my fingers. On the other hand I literally encountered hundreds and thousands of people thinking that new = automatically better without having any arguments to back that up. I don't know what you're on but in the day to day reality of the community it is very much the other way around. I can't really fathom how you'd come to think otherwise unless you're delusional or actively seeking out only those kinds of fans on a daily basis while ignoring the 99,9% of the community that is neutral or thinks newer is always better. Basically forcefully biasing yourself for some reason. You must be lucky or I must be unlucky then, because my experience is different. I see this stuff on a regular basis. As unreliable as youtubers usually are lots of anime youtubers do make videos addressing the "is anime DEAD?" discussion for a reason, because the accusation that anime is dead/dying is regularly brought up. Pullman said: When it comes to music this attitude is much more prevalent. I've recently gotten a lot into 80s music and literally every youtube video has some people in the comments talking about being born in the wrong decade or how 'that was still real music, nowadays we only got justin bieber' and other bullshit. Okay this is true. But just look in the comments for This video and tell me that these comments are not at least somewhat comparable to the stuff you would see on 80's music videos. Pullman said: So I can't take you seriously with your 'theory'. Not at all. it's exactly the other way around in the anime community. Just look at the fucking toplists or how many people have watched any old anime. Almost nobody does and from the ones that do 90% watch and enjoy new anime as well. Calling it a theory is giving me too much credit. This is more like a hypothesis or a brain fart. I'm not trying to say that the old "stuff was better argument" is the most accepted or common point of view in the anime community. Obviously these people are a vocal minority but they are still greater in proportion compared to other media, 10% that don't watch and enjoy new anime too is still a greater percentage than in other media. (of course however, the percentages we're playing around with here are completely imaginary). Pullman said: People who dare to enjoy old anime and not find them inherently inferior to anything new are already hated and bashed on by the community as it is (while the opposite, blindly refusing anything old and worshipping anything new is seen as reasonable and normal. I've been there a few dozens times so I would know) so we REALLY don't need more witchhunters like you who for some reason have an agenda to completely discredit anyone who doesn't share their views on old anime. I don't recall saying anything about old anime that wasn't positive in my original post. Pullman said: It's toxic. And not even necessary. People already have no respect for old anime and people who enjoy them. It's depressing to see someone put this much effort into further discrediting them. What happened to make you that dedicated to persecuting an extreme minority? Did someone not like your favorite anime and preferred something that's older? There must be some specific history to it to make you bash them so much... Again, I'm not bashing people for liking old anime, if I'm bashing anyone it's people who like old anime AND have their heads in the sand when it comes to liking new anime, I dislike when people act like new anime is the only stuff that's good too but I don't see those people often enough for it to occur to my mind when I made this thread. Okay, I'm starting to see where the problems lie. 1. I avoid anime youtubers like the plague. Youtube in general is a cesspool and I try not to take anything said in those comments as a representation of anything except the youtube comment section and it's toxicity itself. If your impressions are mostly based on those it makes sense though I can't take them too seriously in that case. I'm mostly talking from a MAL perspective since you made the thread here and it is the biggest(?) anime-exclusive community on the internet. 2. I just don't see people fanboying over Ergo Proxy (to pick your example), a mid-00's anime as them worshipping old anime. I think there is a big difference between individually being nostalgic about whatever shows you watched early on, and actually having an opinion on old anime in general. Because individually you can get nostalgic about shows that aren't more than a few years old, depending on how long you've been watching anime. But it's always just nostalgia for one show or maybe a couple, the vast majority of which do not fall into the 'old anime' category (pre-2000). Lots of these comments said stuff like 'They don't make shows like EP anymore' which just shows that they're only thinking of this particular show and ways to praise it (misguided ways in mayn occasions, especially on youtube comments, but still). They don't seem like praising old anime in general and if I had to guess 90% of them have barely seen anything pre-2000 themselves (because statistically almost noone has). So to reiterate I think being a fanboy of old anime (pre 2000) in general and being on the bandwagon of 'the very, very recent seasons of anime have been shit and everything is going down the drain' are two very different phenomenons. The first is extremely rare and usually based on having some general preferences that align more with the strenghts of anime from those decades than with more modern anime. The second is very common and usually rooted in casuals getting tired of anime (or following seasonals) and blaming it on the most recent seasons and the downfall of the industry, or by them getting nostalgic about the handful of top favorites they have if none of them was produced in the last 2 years. It's just people whining and using whatever rhetoric they can to express their irrational frustrations with the industry. Most of the time those people have nothing to do with old anime in general. But they are partly at fault that people like you (and countless others I've encountered over the years) think that their attitude is a side effect of preferring old anime, when it's really not. If anything them liking 'old anime' is just a side effect of their irrational frustration with modern anime, or what they tell themselves to justify their outbursts against modern anime. It riles me up when people try to blame the countless issues people seem to have with recent seasons on fans of old anime because from the few old anime fans I've met most of them were harmless and very nice to talk to. They're usually more reclusive and don't participate very much in public shitstorms like on youtube. People bashing the 'recent state of the industry' on the other hand come in all forms and colors so to say. They can spout all kinds of random years after which they think anime went to shit. I've seen dates in the early 00s as well as 2012. There's no consensus, no common philosophy or preference aside from their generalized rants about the 'current state'. They are not a coherent group of people, just a bunch of individuals who are frustrated for different reasons and all have their psychological reasons for jumping on the bandwagon that is modern industry bashing. Most of which have little to no intersection with the actual group of old anime fans who almost exclusively watch pre-2000 shows. In fact I guarantee you that most people who say things like that are very modern fans who have been following seasons for at least a year or two in their life. You only get frustrated if you actually regularly watch the newest shows, which fans who almost exclusively prefer old anime wouldn't even do. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Lobinde said: Nigami_Shin said: it's like with music or movies. no one would watch the mediocre mecha anime from 1988 - only the good things are remembered and watched nowadays. -> reducing 30 years with hundreds of anime to 20-50 shows I agree, but to play the devil's advocate the current decade could also be reduced to about 10 shows. But what can be discerned from this is that the amount of media that stands the test of time is staggeringly low. that's because most anime nowadays is made with the sole intention of promoting the ln/vn/manga or sell some overpriced merchandise. the competition is bigger and the whole industry became more commercialised, means the primary focus is to make as much profit as possible while keeping the risk low and satisfy your investors. an original plot with an unpredictable outcome is dangerous and two failed projects might be already enough to become the next manglobe... |
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BannoBunka_snork said: I don't understand what "community" Lobinde is talking about. MAL users ? Then I think Lobinde's depiction of the community is just not based in reality. EDIT, 11 posts posted inbetween : ah, ok, this is about youtube comments, and such. Well, then, I'm out, got nothing to do with that. /EDIT (wondering wether I still have this signature - I turned signatures off time ago ... anyways : saying "not watching any old stuff because old is a dumb approach" is not the same as saying "all old stuff is good". ) hey I think I remember your signature. I was either +1ing or writing that post myself some time ago :>. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I honestly have no idea how you came to this conclusion, OP. Those who prefer the way things were in the past are present in all mediums, especially music. I know a ton of people in real life who prefer old music to most stuff that comes out now. At that, this is far and away from being common. It is so uncommon that even calling it a vocal minority is an exaggeration. The opposite extreme with all old anime being "crap" is very widely accepted, on the other hand. Although it does seem like new-only extremists' numbers may be slowly decreasing in favor of a neutral stance, it is still very very common. Many who claim old anime are worth watching are labeled with the stereotype you're talking about, even though it isn't true. |
TripleSRankAug 8, 2016 2:27 PM
kamisama751 said: Is this thread a joke? I barely see anyone who said that in a serious tone while those who have, also got an explanation for it. Then look the other way around. There are so many people out there who don't watch/despise old anime for no valid reason and shits on it. Well I'm not sure what to say to say about this. I will repeat that this thread is based off my experiences, and I see more people bashing new anime than people bashing old anime, it's that simple. kamisama751 said: Lobinde said: you have probably noticed at least a fair few people holding the belief that older (I'll define this by pre-2000's anime) anime is absolutely better than the more recent stuff. How is this to understand? Do you mean they say no post-2000 show is good? Then what I aforementioned applies even more. Basically yes, or at least a post-2000 show is less likely to be good based on time period alone, not even knowing anything else about the show. kamisama751 said: Lobinde said: You know the guy who makes claims like "oh the anime industry is dead, it's dying, it's all just moeshit ecchi bullshit for pedos now. Where is muh deep philosophical stuff and my cowboi beeboo" . Okay, here is the first thing: echi is for echifags, pedos got lolis and shotas. They are different. The person who made that statement is obviously silly. But maybe someone just wrote that randomly for the sake of favoring his/her own post. Okay good point, they may be trolling or something, but I know there are at least some people who think like this. kamisama751 said: Lobinde said: This isn't even mentioning the variety of critically acclaimed shows released since 2007 such as HxH, Madoka Magica Ping Pong the Animation, Gurren Lagann etc. and hidden gems such as Kyousougiga and Redline. Even if you personally hate all of those mentioned examples you have to acknowledge that they are all very different from how your standard "old stuff was better" guy perceives modern anime. Madka magica is a very bad example since it is actually critically seen bullsh*t and Redline isn't even a hidden gem. They may well be but "they are all very different from how your standard "old stuff was better" guy perceives modern anime", as in, none of them are ecchi/harem anime with sexualised lolis taking centre stage or whatever. kamisama751 said: Lobinde said: I acknowledge that by ranting about this topic for the umpteenth time I am just preaching to the choir and adding fuel to the fire, but why do you think that the "old stuff was better" attitude is so prevalent among the anime community? Is it based in ignorance and nostalgia, or do these people have valid concerns about the state of modern anime? Since I do find it always good to critique the status quo of any media, but at the same time dislike attitudes such as nostalgia for its own sake, I would say that it's a bit of both. There just aren't so many people thinking like that. A topic about why people don't even give old anime a chance should be a better discussion. Maybe so, but hey, you can always make your own thread for that. This thread has been made now and editing my original post to completely change the discussion would not make sense. I will admit that my thread title is a bit hostile to old anime fans, I mean the attitude that "Old stuff is ALWAYS better" not just "in my opinion, old stuff is better." |
| @kamisama751 Hey.. Madoka Magicka is one of the most critically acclaimed Anime of all time. Check your information mate. |
Pullman said: So to reiterate I think being a fanboy of old anime (pre 2000) in general and being on the bandwagon of 'the very, very recent seasons of anime have been shit and everything is going down the drain' are two very different phenomenons. The first is extremely rare and usually based on having some general preferences that align more with the strenghts of anime from those decades than with more modern anime. The second is very common and usually rooted in casuals getting tired of anime (or following seasonals) and blaming it on the most recent seasons and the downfall of the industry, or by them getting nostalgic about the handful of top favorites they have if none of them was produced in the last 2 years. @Lobinde Reading back through the previous replies, I agree that this is probably what you're doing, mixing up two different groups. The "only old anime is good" crowd and the "anime is dying" crowd are separate, with the latter being full of disillusioned fans of current anime who likely haven't watched much old anime in the first place. |
kamisama751 said: Klassical said: @kamisama751 Hey.. Madoka Magicka is one of the most critically acclaimed Anime of all time. Check your information mate. Huh? No matter where I check my information I have not really seen critical people praising it while also giving valid reasons. You are checking in the wrong place then, maybe some youtube anime reviewer disagree with the acclaim Madoka has, but that doesn't change anything. I'll provide some sources if you want: First of all you can check the article on Wikipedia and it has many references stating that Madoka Magica is very critically acclaimed (universal) and also has been the same of acclaim as Neon Genesis Evangelion. Why is Madoka universally acclaimed? 1) First of all the rating of the anime fans, it is highly rated. ( People Acclaim ) 2) The Review Rating: If you do an average of the reviews whether on Youtube or Anime sites the rating probably will be above 8 and for sure above 7. (Critical users acclaim) 3) It has high sales (Again People acclaim) 4) If you dont want to acknowledge the first three then you have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica#Reception A well known critic from ANN: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/puella-magi-madoka-magica 5) If you want more: Awards: Madoka Magicka has won many awards in its year, one of the few titles to do so in all anime industry. Tokyo Anime Award: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Anime_Award Japan Media Arts Festival :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Media_Arts_Festival Animation Kobe : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animation_Kobe Edit: The Magazine was a mistake sorry ^.^ Is that enough acclaim or only a one person with an anime channel with very limited taste opinion worth more? Anyway that doesn't change the fact that some critics dont like it, but its critically acclaimed, so you can be a critics and love/hate it. |
Dr-EyesAug 8, 2016 2:49 PM
| @kamisama751 Nahh mate, seems you have the wrong idea about "critical acclaim" It is not that you are convinced, this is a fact. You asked for Valid reasons; well this is very personal since for each person these things differ. Maybe the reasons they state is good to some other people. Also I didn't only refer to MAL reviews, but its user-based reviews and these users also rate critically, if you think they have shit taste then thats fine but looking at things objectively they are just like you are a person with critical rating. Critical acclaim means that the majority of critics agree that a certain series is good. Not all but the majority. As for the awards; The shows you mentioned that are awful are awful according to you and some other people, apparently the majority, experts, many reviewers disagree with you. (The only exception is SAO, but in Japan it is acclaimed) Also if the series won many awards and not just one award this strengthen its position. You can hate a critically acclaimed show, thats fine but that will not change the fact that it is critically acclaimed whether you think the reasons are valid or not. And just a friendly advice, saying you disagree because everyone else has shit taste is a very very lazy and outdated method. You can search for more reviews: http://www.uk-anime.net/anime/Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_Complete_Series_Collection.html Check other anime sites, maybe some will do the job. If not, that means you dont agree with the majority and then you state this sentence: " I think Madoka is overrated and doesn't deserve the fame and acclaim it has, i think its shit" if you say this instead of what you said maybe it sounds more accurate. But saying its not critically acclaimed is simply denying facts. |
| COMPARED TO OTHER MEDIA???? SON... for example... go on a modern hip-hop video and you're GUARANTEED to see: "modern rap sucks, i want 2pac and Biggie back!" "90s HIP HOP WAS THE SHIT!!!" i swear EVERYTHING people say about anime they say about music.... EVERYTHING.... "old music wasn't like this" "all music today is this" "all todays music sounds the same" sound familiar lol? but i actually have to agree with @Pullman to a degree... many of the younger people don't watch older anime, some of them think it "looks really bad visually" or they simply don't notice them cause they aren't being talked about which is actually why you get a lot of these "anime has changed significantly" people cause they only know the "big name" titles from the past and don't realize that nothing today is "new" and there were plenty of shows back then that started the generic shows today |
EcchiGodMamsterAug 8, 2016 3:50 PM
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Lordwen said: @Pullman How do you still have the nerve to type reasonable responses to this infamous kind of threads? Well, I did get kinda snarky in my first response so I wouldn't say I'm immune to having unreasonable and judgmental tendencies when I encounter these threads based on having argued about it so many times. But I try to not get too salty or aggressive because that'd have the same effect or worse than not replying at all (which is a choice I often opt for but obviously noone can see it when I choose to not reply because I don't have the nerves for a reasonable reply in that moment.) so if I write something about a topic I care about I might as well try to be calm about it even if it feels repetitive. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Over time, people forget the bad stuff and only remember the good shows of yesteryear. The disappointments of the recent seasons are fresh on people's minds, but give them a year or so and they'll be forgotten too. |
EcchiLordMamster said: COMPARED TO OTHER MEDIA???? SON... for example... go on a modern hip-hop video and you're GUARANTEED to see: "modern rap sucks, i want 2pac and Biggie back!" "90s HIP HOP WAS THE SHIT!!!" Zercaroth said: So yea, old stuff is always better isn't just common in anime industry, it's common everywhere. The wrath of the hipster will soon devour us all and since being not hipster is actually being hipster nobody can save us. Yeah, I think I get the idea by now lol. It isn't just unique to anime, but to be fair I did mention that in my original post though. Although yeah I guess you are all right. It is arguably more prevalent in music where you have entire cliques of people dedicated to listening exclusively to stuff from the 80's or earlier. Pullman said: Lordwen said: @Pullman How do you still have the nerve to type reasonable responses to this infamous kind of threads? Well, I did get kinda snarky in my first response so I wouldn't say I'm immune to having unreasonable and judgmental tendencies when I encounter these threads based on having argued about it so many times. But I try to not get too salty or aggressive because that'd have the same effect or worse than not replying at all (which is a choice I often opt for but obviously noone can see it when I choose to not reply because I don't have the nerves for a reasonable reply in that moment.) so if I write something about a topic I care about I might as well try to be calm about it even if it feels repetitive. I can respect that, I know my post must have annoyed you so I appreciate you staying rational and calm. However it seemed as though you think this thread is some sort of attack on old anime or people who like old anime. It's not that at all. Yes it does suck that there are many people who think that old anime is all lame or something, but I wanted to vent my experiences with the opposite group. |
| This isn't quite accurate since most people who watched a lot of live action movies will tell you that 70's>After the 70's. That attitude isn't only common in other media, sometimes is universally accepted and that's the reason you don't read that much salt discussion about it. The same goes for most genres of music from what I heard. But trying to actually answer, this is because the ratio of shit anime being produced in comparison to the good ones is so big that some people feel there is no good anime being made anymore. I'm not trying to say it wasn't like this all along, but it's not survivorship bias, it's just that back then people never got their hands on most of the bad anime, just a very little amount of them because they sold like shit. Instead, they got their hands on Cowboy Bebop, NGE, Escaflowne, Gunbuster, Trust & Betrayal, Berserk, Hunter x Hunter, GitS, Akira, etc. Now we can get our hands on good anime like Shirobako, Ping Pong or Gintama but also on things like Mahou Sensou, Absolute Duo and Glasslip. It also helps to reinforce those claims that some of the actually good recent anime are adaptations from old manga (Jojo, Ushio no Tora, Kiseijuu, Ping Pong). People has a lot of reasons to think that Old anime>New anime, and while I don't share that thoughts they might be just right, but I've yet to watch most of those critically aclaimed pre-2000 shows to judge for myself. Right now, not even one of those are in my favorites list, so I will keep liking this two decades better. |
| I new in anime,game,film, or music(started on 2010) but i try to give my own opinion It Because : 1. Bad graphic,animation and art if we takes opinion from people who watch anime at least 5 years ago ,so it can prove 'old stuff isn't always better'and i think anime have gain it's popularity accross the world on 2000 2. Old anime that very famous like cowboy bebep and ghost in the shell has proven 'Old Stuff is alway better' although more 15 years gap until now ,they gain good rating and popularity between us.I didn't watch both but i'm sure old anime like that is very good 3. 'Old stuff is always better' is usually said by person that started watching anime,playing games,or hearing music a long time ago 4. So, 'old stuff is always better' is only opinion.You may agree or disagree with that and my opinion is opinion too,you may agree or disagree with it. |
RioAlAug 8, 2016 4:52 PM
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| Because anime is bad and in the past there was less anime. Therefore, the old stuff is better. |
| The great thing about living in the past is that you no longer have to wait for good shows to come out--they're all already out, and you can binge at your leisure (provided you can find them in a watchable format). Personally, I like a mix of old and new, as I've seen plenty of anime in the past 5 years that have nearly made it onto my favorites list (Kill la Kill, Chihayafuru, Hibike! Euphonium), and so the thrill of finding the classics of ye olden days is just as exciting as finding the classics of tomorrow. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
| In my experience it's not common at all, it's quite the opposite i tend to see alot more people saying that older anime are inferior to newer ones because of "animation". |
| I think I have seen maybe one person here on MAL make the argument that old anime is better. I really don't think that's a common position to hold, in fact they are the vast minority. |
 |
| I don't really watch that much old anime but having seen classic like original Gundam, Gundam Zeta and Gundam ZZ,I can guarantee old anime are certainly not better. Gundam ZZ for example is the worst Gundam. Other notable classic I seen are Evangelion, Rurouni Kenshin, Slam Dunk,Yuyu Hakusho, Trigun,Serial Experiment Lain and Cowboy Bebop(drop after 9 episodes) . I certainly don't feel they are any much better than modern day anime in term of quality. There are masterpiece and awful anime for every generation. |
ZapredonAug 8, 2016 11:16 PM
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
| All my top 10 anime are from 2006-present. All my favorite characters are also 2006-present. Quite frankly, for the exception of a very few nostalgic shows.....the old anime era was horrible. |
| People say anime changed over time. Some people love what was before the change, and some love what came later (and some long love both) |
 |
| There has always been crap and there always will be crap. We just get more stuff released these days meaning that we get even more crap then we used to. To be fair though, the recent seasons of anime haven't exactly been great either. |
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