The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. He who never fails always succeeds. And he who always succeeds is all- powerful.
| Do you agree? Do you think that power comes from the lack of ambition? |
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| If we look at the most powerful people in the world, I would have to disagree. |
PoeticJustice said: Can we truly say those people were powerful though?If we look at the most powerful people in the world, I would have to disagree. |
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| I dont really agree or disagree. The absence of failure is not necessarily succeeding because with he lack of ambition there is nothing one is succeeding at. |
Anna_Cats said: Wanting coal is partly an ambition.no. it's like if a kid asks for coal for christmas. you're still getting coal. sure, you didn't get your hopes up and have them let down when santa didn't get you that new video game, but you got coal. what the fuck can an eight year old do with coal. it's very late at night and I'm just rambling. traed said: If you have no ambition, you're succeeding at not having an ambition.I dont really agree or disagree. The absence of failure is not necessarily succeeding because with he lack of ambition there is nothing one is succeeding at. |
PeenusWeenusCaimNov 20, 2015 9:56 PM
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| I was wondering yesterday what could be called 'defeat' or 'victory' and I came to the conclusion that it all has to do with our mental, emotional state after achieving either of the outcomes. You're happy after winning, therefore we call it winning. You're sad after losing, therefore we call it losing. But what if you're happy after losing? would it be called a loss? Going by my definitions, not losing will definitely not mean 'winning' and vice-versa. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
CaimTheJoyful said: PoeticJustice said: Can we truly say those people were powerful though?If we look at the most powerful people in the world, I would have to disagree. They have more control over the populous than the average person, so I guess. There will always be someone higher up pulling the strings. |
CaimTheJoyful said: But that is only so if your ambition is to have no ambition. ... which cant be done.traed said: If you have no ambition, you're succeeding at not having an ambition.I dont really agree or disagree. The absence of failure is not necessarily succeeding because with he lack of ambition there is nothing one is succeeding at. |
traedNov 20, 2015 10:07 PM
| That's an interesting way to view life. If you have no ambitions, I don't suppose losing or winning matters. |
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| He who never fails don't always succeed. He can do nothing. |
PoeticJustice said: While the dictionary definition of power is to have great influence, does it fit with my saying's meaning of "powerful"? Where success is power? Is an ambitious man in a state of success, or a man always seeking success? And if he's always in a state of seeking success, does that mean he's in a state of failure because he has not reached his idea of success yet?CaimTheJoyful said: Can we truly say those people were powerful though? They have more control over the populous than the average person, so I guess. There will always be someone higher up pulling the strings. geniobastardo said: Ah, there's a man who gets it.I was wondering yesterday what could be called 'defeat' or 'victory' and I came to the conclusion that it all has to do with our mental, emotional state after achieving either of the outcomes. You're happy after winning, therefore we call it winning. You're sad after losing, therefore we call it losing. But what if you're happy after losing? would it be called a loss? Going by my definitions, not losing will definitely not mean 'winning' and vice-versa. traed said: Are you aware of the Mahayana idea of nonduality? CaimTheJoyful said: But that is only so if your ambition is to have no ambition. ... which cant be done.If you have no ambition, you're succeeding at not having an ambition. Nonduality is the opposite of duality. Non-duality is the idea that there is no difference between relative ideas and expression. Everything leads to one absolute reality. For destruction to exist, there must be production because what is not produced and does not occur cannot be destroyed. For evil to exist, there must be a concept of good, because without knowing what is good, we cannot tell what is evil. But that doesn't make sense, because the very concept of nonduality is dualistic in nature. We need to know about dualism to know what nondualism is. In essence, the only way to understand nonduality is to speak nothing, think nothing, and designate nothing. When you have no ambition, that does not mean you have an ambition in having no ambition, you simply just do not have an ambition, and therefore, are succeeding because you are not failing. How does my discussion of nonduality relate to this? You tell me that fam. |
PeenusWeenusCaimNov 20, 2015 10:29 PM
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| Taoism is dualistic though. You're not succeeding or failing. |
traed said: And nonduality is dualistic as well.Taoism is dualistic though. traed said: But to not fail is to succeed when you're in a state of nothing, designating nothing.You're not succeeding or failing. |
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| false dichotomy just because you didn't fail doesn't mean you succeeded it just means you are a worthless piece of shit who did literally nothing |
Astros said: To fail is to not succeed. To succeed is to not fail. To have no ambition, is succeeding because you do not have an ambition. When you have no ambition, you are not failing, so therefore, you are succeeding.Can you fail without ambition? To fail is to desire something in the first place and not receive it. |
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CaimTheJoyful said: But fail or succeed is a very black and white way of looking at things. Which is more on the side of dualistic not nondualism.traed said: And nonduality is dualistic as well.Taoism is dualistic though. traed said: But to not fail is to succeed when you're in a state of nothing, designating nothing.You're not succeeding or failing. To say if you do not fail that you have succeeded, when all you have done is nothing, is to say that the inherent state of everything is success. That means all actions leaves you to have that success to lose. |
CaimTheJoyful said: Unless you succeed in failing.To fail is to not succeed. To succeed is to not fail. |
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Astros said: And succeed in acting on an ambition.CaimTheJoyful said: Unless you succeed in failing.To fail is to not succeed. To succeed is to not fail. |
| "So The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. He who never fails always succeeds. And he who always succeeds is all- powerful." So basically; So don't try, if you don't try you can't fail, and by doing nothing you become all powerful. I Disagree |
SolidShadowNov 20, 2015 11:52 PM
| If my ambition is to eat an apple pie, I'm in a state of failure until I eat an apple pie since I am not eating an apple pie. Though once I do succeed at eating an apple pie, my ambition is no more since I have eaten an apple pie. To succeed is to not have an ambition and to fail is to have an ambition. An ambitious man is always in a state of failure while a non-ambitious man is always in a state of success. |
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| A state of failure or a better way to see it is a process of success. |
| I disagree. To lack ambition is to excise ambition, which ultimately creates ambition. Instead, the sage has no ambitions because his ambitions are not ambitions. He is filled with disinterest. The sage is all-powerful because he is disinterested. Because he is disinterested, he never takes action. To take no action is to never fail. To never fail is to always succeed. To always succeed is to be all powerful. To be all-powerful is to be disinterested. |
| What's the point of being all powerful if you have no ambitions? |
| I think by definition you have to make an attempt to either succeed or fail, and living in itself inherently involves attempting one thing or another. If you do nothing but meditate, you're attempting to reach a certain state of mind. Certainly, failing to meditate properly is of lesser gravity than failing to take over the world and being killed in the process. |
| Success is a subjective concept in the first place. So those with a mindset that already has it that they have suceeded are technically the most successful. Since in their eyes, they are the most successful. However they are not the most powerful, since power is a measurable reality. Money is power. Connections are power. Authority is power. |
| It all depends on what you view as power |
listbot said: don't wanna make shitty anime so i don't make a single anime thanks tao god, now I'm the best animator of the world I imagine it more like if you drew lots of anime but cared not for success or recognition. You just do it naturally like breathing :) |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
| I think a more practical concept that is similar along these lines is Seneca's stoic philosophy. Basically if you lower your expectations you will not be as bothered by the results if you fail or something goes wrong. Do not expect to succeed because you be let down if you do not. However you also should not expect to fail because if you expect to fail you more likely will not try. Yet you should be prepared for failure or obstacles before they come in order to get past them. Although there is a problem with his suggestion of imagining everything that could go wrong as most people can not handle that in a calm manner that it really benefits the average person. This should not prevent someone from having ambitions nor would it prevent someone from seeking out their desires. This stoic way can also go with Wu Wei (which has now been mentioned in here already) in a sense because you can maximize your happiness if you dont try to fight what can not be changed but just go with it. There is a problem with that though in that many people misjudge what they can and can not change thus cutting themselves off short. I do not necessarily believe in following all this myself but I understand how some would. |
| No. In order to succeed you have to try. Not trying means you never fail, but you never succeed too. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Something is not really failure if you do not see it as failure. |
| Isn't that basically like a loser in a boxing match declaring that to loose is to win therefor he won the match. Seems like cheating to me. |
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| Having no ambition doesn't mean you can't fail; you fail in the eyes of the rest of the world, but perhaps not your own. I feel like there is a huge grey area between a failure and success which most people fall in. It's not black or white. I can agree with the last sentence. |
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CaimTheJoyful said: Do you agree? Do you think that power comes from the lack of ambition? The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. Failure is a prescribed attitude, and we mustn't lose track of the frame of reference. A person can experience failure from his own goals, and failure from society, for example. In context of "success" (i.e. as a state in itself without any possession), a person's own goals is trivial. A person can succeed at taking a shit, but that doesn't mean he has found success. The Taoist sage can never fails at his own goals since he has none, but becomes a failure by default.He who never fails always succeeds. This is a false bifurcation.And he who always succeeds is all- powerful. Here, again we note that "succeed" is in the frame of the sage's own goals, which are nonexistence, and that he hasn't found any success by any other standard. We shift our focus to the word "always", which might imply that he always succeeds at anything he does, or that he has merely succeeded in things he has done. Clearly, in this case the latter is true, and the latter says nothing about allpowerfulness. These three phrases are merely a trick of the mind to someone who doesn't understanding the meaning behind their own utterance. |
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Dimethylanime said: Not really the whole rest of the world. Some people just wont really care if someone else has an ambition or not, or at least not if they arent close to the person.Having no ambition doesn't mean you can't fail; you fail in the eyes of the rest of the world, but perhaps not your own. I feel like there is a huge grey area between a failure and success which most people fall in. It's not black or white. I can agree with the last sentence. |
Pacifica_Ocean said: Isn't that basically like a loser in a boxing match declaring that to loose is to win therefor he won the match. Seems like cheating to me. A huge emotional appeal for losers. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
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