| Hunter x Hunter is neither anything to complain about or praise when it comes to female characters, it was mild towards them. |
| Jaywalker. |
Epicenter said: Hunter x Hunter is neither anything to complain about or praise when it comes to female characters, it was mild towards them. It has more to do with females in general. Males are better and more interesting and are not limited to anything, be it psychically or emotionally. Using females in a battle series is laughable XD |
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ImmaMuggleYou said: Look at the list of points made about HxH, I would say most of it makes a valid point. You mean that list which was clearly refuted by two separate people, point by point? Hunter x Hunter is neither anything to complain about or praise when it comes to female characters, it was mild towards them. I somewhat agree in that its treatment of specifically female characters isn't where the praise should be directed. Instead what should be praised is the holistic presentation of gender roles in both the male and female characters. |
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AttackOnTetris said: ImmaMuggleYou said: Look at the list of points made about HxH, I would say most of it makes a valid point. You mean that list which was clearly refuted by two separate people, point by point? Hunter x Hunter is neither anything to complain about or praise when it comes to female characters, it was mild towards them. I somewhat agree in that its treatment of specifically female characters isn't where the praise should be directed. Instead what should be praised is the holistic presentation of gender roles in both the male and female characters. I don't think I quite catch this gender role stuff about HxH. Is it because of the two guy ants acting like motherly or whatever figures to the King? I mean I guess that's cool but it sort of kind of lame considering they weren't human characters. I guess some of Killuas brothers like dressing in dresses so maybe? I'm still not a fan of gender roles being reversed instead of simply not used, Youpi looked like a huge pansy/weirdo in one scene I remember. You got Ging, the typical dead beat dad in anime. Phantom Troupe female is their medical healer type. Pitou who in the anime has obvious boobs, is the one with healer type power out of the three guards. The three main females of the show, who are kind of background characters anyways, all have typical female gender roles. The chick who was with them in the Chimera Ant arc was boy crazed and pretty much the only member of the team who couldn't fight, Gon's trainer was obsessed with vanity to the point of not liking to use her main power because it made her look non feminine- and I'm pretty sure one of her other powers involve a hair stylish and massage female creature- and Gon's guardian who raised him was basically just the typical motherly like figure who worried about her child and was overprotective. All things considered, I personally feel like HXH is just mild with gender roles, non of the main characters are female, some of the male characters have female like traits but it's used to a degree that makes them look bad imo and perhaps you'll enlighten me on what's so great about HxH gender role wise. It's an epic series though, just to be clear, I just don't see it as a strong gender role one among the anime industry. Hell I'd argue YYH was better with gender roles than HXH. |
EpicenterJun 17, 2015 9:15 PM
| Jaywalker. |
| As for Naruto and female characters in battle series being laughable(though I am aware it's possible Ichii was joking). I've never been a fan of how physically strong female characters are done in anime. Like with physically super strong males at least most of the time they have a strong build, some of them are even brimming with muscle on muscle like the hulk. But I swear, in 99% of the anime I've seen with psychically strong women, they always look exactly the same as all the other females, as if female body builders and athletes don't have muscles. I understand some anime aren't realistic, but don't have these physically jacked males in an anime have this large builds, but then turn around having the females look like twigs yet have the same brute strength in the same anime. Though this isn't much about gender roles, other than the fact that anime are extremely against having muscular looking female characters most of the time. Just had to say this. |
| Jaywalker. |
ImmaMuggleYou said: Look at the list of points made about HxH, I would say most of it makes a valid point. Are you kidding me? Did you even read AttackonTetris and Afagin's responses? |
Epicenter said: The three main females of the show, who are kind of background characters anyways, all have typical female gender roles. The chick who was with them in the Chimera Ant arc was boy crazed and pretty much the only member of the team who couldn't fight, Gon's trainer was obsessed with vanity to the point of not liking to use her main power because it made her look non feminine- and I'm pretty sure one of her other powers involve a hair stylish and massage female creature- and Gon's guardian who raised him was basically just the typical motherly like figure who worried about her child and was overprotective. I have to say that as a woman, I really admire characters like Bisky who are very strong and yet have aspects to their character that could be considered trivial (like obsession with vanity and being easily attracted to men). To me she is a much more realistic and empowering character than someone like say, Chihaya (just cause I'm watching chihaya furu atm) who is very strong willed, likeable and beautiful, yet is unaware of her beauty or does not care and unaware of the men interested in her. Very few women like this exist in real life, women are usually far more complex and often struggle with conflicting characteristics (eg. want to be strong and independent but look forward to becoming a mother, enjoy makeup and fashion, etc). In this sense I like HxH characters although I agree with you that they aren't particularly bad or praiseworthy when it comes to gender roles. I think the show is full of wonderful, interesting characters however and I love HxH for this. |
| (reply to Epicenter) |
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tsudecimo said: Naruto best physical strength comes from Sage mode which it still leagues below Sakura and Tsunade in raw power What is his best physical feat? Epicenter said: I don't think I quite catch this gender role stuff about HxH. Is it because of the two guy ants acting like motherly or whatever figures to the King? I mean I guess that's cool but it sort of kind of lame considering they weren't human characters. No, I just gave that example to show the double standards in his comment about motherly love or whatever applied to women. I'm personally not that much of a fan of gender roles reversal but I don't even consider that a woman expressing maternal love is sexist Epicenter said: I've never been a fan of how physically strong female characters are done in anime. Like with physically super strong males at least most of the time they have a strong build, some of them are even brimming with muscle on muscle like the hulk. But I swear, in 99% of the anime I've seen with psychically strong women, they always look exactly the same as all the other females, as if female body builders and athletes don't have muscles. I understand some anime aren't realistic, but don't have these physically jacked males in an anime have this large builds, but then turn around having the females look like twigs yet have the same brute strength in the same anime. This is another problem that hardly exists in HxH since we have physically strong females with hulk-like bodies like Bisky or Tsubone. |
AgafinJun 17, 2015 11:52 PM
| @AttackonTetris I agree with what you say except (and maybe this has to do with the way you chose to phrase it) I think some of the strong women in HxH definitely do have notions of "being a woman"--this is exactly the point, this is what makes them successful and empowering characters. Palm is obsessed with the idea of romantic love and Bisky wants to look young and pretty and has a very motherly disposition--very typical feminine traits, nothing wrong with that. Except as you explained to Epicenter, these characters are far from typical because their assigned gender roles don't tie them down at all. |
hanamichi1031 said: @AttackonTetris I agree with what you say except (and maybe this has to do with the way you chose to phrase it) I think some of the strong women in HxH definitely do have notions of "being a woman"--this is exactly the point, this is what makes them successful and empowering characters. Palm is obsessed with the idea of romantic love and Bisky wants to look young and pretty and has a very motherly disposition--very typical feminine traits, nothing wrong with that. Except as you explained to Epicenter, these characters are far from typical because their assigned gender roles don't tie them down at all. I think we have mostly a semantic disconnect there. What I was really trying to say is that gender roles exist in the society, but they don't choose to cling to these roles to find self-worth. I also wouldn't say Bisky has a clearly "motherly" disposition, in that you can replace her character with a 57 year old man who looks his age and gender, and you wouldn't say he has a motherly disposition. But yes, I agree that it is empowering in that these women choose to pursue what they wish to regardless of what they are "supposed to be doing" as women. And that same frame of mind can extend to a more futuristic society where men and women don't feel caged in by the idea of the "ideal man" and "ideal woman" but rather energized by being a free human being. |
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Epicenter said: As for Naruto and female characters in battle series being laughable(though I am aware it's possible Ichii was joking). I've never been a fan of how physically strong female characters are done in anime. Like with physically super strong males at least most of the time they have a strong build, some of them are even brimming with muscle on muscle like the hulk. But I swear, in 99% of the anime I've seen with psychically strong women, they always look exactly the same as all the other females, as if female body builders and athletes don't have muscles. I understand some anime aren't realistic, but don't have these physically jacked males in an anime have this large builds, but then turn around having the females look like twigs yet have the same brute strength in the same anime. Though this isn't much about gender roles, other than the fact that anime are extremely against having muscular looking female characters most of the time. Just had to say this. Lol no. Most of the strong characters, female or not, aren't muscular in anime. Muscular people is an old thing now, and thank god for that. Check Naruto for example, most of the physically strong characters barely show any muscles. It's until the Raikage, that a muscular character is prominently shown. Generally in Shounen manga, having a lot of muscles hints at the character being weak, and those who look weak are actually very strong, it's a trope now. |
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| Women watch shounen can't complaint about gender roles. same like man watch shoujo, they can't complaint about it too. as simple as that. if you want something as you wish, just watch what that aimed for your type. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Unyilkdr said: Women watch shounen can't complaint about gender roles. same like man watch shoujo, they can't complaint about it too. as simple as that. if you want something as you wish, just watch what that aimed for your type. But when shounen, shoujo, seinen, and josei all tend to have these gender roles, what can one do but complain and/or seek out the rare cases where they aren't as bad? |
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AttackOnTetris said: it original aimed for. Unyilkdr said: Women watch shounen can't complaint about gender roles. same like man watch shoujo, they can't complaint about it too. as simple as that. if you want something as you wish, just watch what that aimed for your type. But when shounen, shoujo, seinen, and josei all tend to have these gender roles, what can one do but complain and/or seek out the rare cases where they aren't as bad? same like edgy anime, people that can judge an edgy anime are only people that originaly like edgy things from the first place. people that like comedy/parody like me don't have any rights to judge any edgy anime. and edgy fans also can't judge comedy/parody anime. it will also apply on other genre/demographi/content etc. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Unyilkdr said: AttackOnTetris said: it original aimed for. But when shounen, shoujo, seinen, and josei all tend to have these gender roles, what can one do but complain and/or seek out the rare cases where they aren't as bad? same like edgy anime, people that can judge an edgy anime are only people that originaly like edgy things from the first place. people that like comedy/parody like me don't have any rights to judge any edgy anime. and edgy fans also can't judge comedy/parody anime. it will also apply on other genre/demographi/content etc. this is just bullshit anyone has the right to judge anything, lol |
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Imaishi said: okay than: i will judge kill la kill:Unyilkdr said: this is just bullshitit original aimed for. same like edgy anime, people that can judge an edgy anime are only people that originaly like edgy things from the first place. people that like comedy/parody like me don't have any rights to judge any edgy anime. and edgy fans also can't judge comedy/parody anime. it will also apply on other genre/demographi/content etc. anyone has the right to judge anything, lol kill la kill is pure shit. it comedy are too rondom and not funny at all, it dialogue that it try to be funny just nosense, repetative, and boring. it character not interesting at all, reveng cliche are so strong in this series. thats apply on all anime. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
AttackOnTetris said: I also wouldn't say Bisky has a clearly "motherly" disposition, in that you can replace her character with a 57 year old man who looks his age and gender, and you wouldn't say he has a motherly disposition. A minor point to argue but in the last episode of the Greed Island arc in HxH 2011, Gon invites Bisky to join them to visit Ging and Bisky declines, saying to herself "if I hang around these kids any longer, I'll really start to feel like a parent". Not sure if it's dubbed/subbed as such but I would say she's motherly. If a man had her role, (disregarding all the nuances of Bisky that could not be translated to an equally successful male character) he would probably be fatherly and certainly different from say Wing or Netero who interact with Gon and Killua purely as teacher to student. Unyilkdr said: Women watch shounen can't complaint about gender roles. same like man watch shoujo, they can't complaint about it too. as simple as that. if you want something as you wish, just watch what that aimed for your type. Surely you don't really believe it's as simple as that? Men's observations regarding gender roles in shoujo anime are just as relevant as those of shounen, why shouldn't they be? These roles are used to reflect society which everyone is a part of. And just cause you happen to be the targeted gender/age of a certain anime doesn't necessarily mean its characters and their roles would make sense. Like I said in an earlier response, as a woman I find HxH's Bisky a far more empowering character that celebrates women and femininity than Chihaya from Chihayafuru, a josei anime targeted towards women. People are too complex to be tied to a single genre or reduced to a single "type". |
Unyilkdr said: Imaishi said: okay than: i will judge kill la kill:this is just bullshit anyone has the right to judge anything, lol kill la kill is pure shit. it comedy are too rondom and not funny at all, it dialogue that it try to be funny just nosense, repetative, and boring. it character not interesting at all, reveng cliche are so strong in this series. thats apply on all anime. Your argument is shit. Your insistence on projecting your ignorance of certain genres and tropes onto others in no way qualifies as a logical or valid reason to ad-hoc take the opinions of other people less seriously. Your judgement also sucked because you lacked appropriate justification for your opinions. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Agafin said: tsudecimo said: Naruto best physical strength comes from Sage mode which it still leagues below Sakura and Tsunade in raw power What is his best physical feat? Epicenter said: I don't think I quite catch this gender role stuff about HxH. Is it because of the two guy ants acting like motherly or whatever figures to the King? I mean I guess that's cool but it sort of kind of lame considering they weren't human characters. No, I just gave that example to show the double standards in his comment about motherly love or whatever applied to women. I'm personally not that much of a fan of gender roles reversal but I don't even consider that a woman expressing maternal love is sexist Epicenter said: I've never been a fan of how physically strong female characters are done in anime. Like with physically super strong males at least most of the time they have a strong build, some of them are even brimming with muscle on muscle like the hulk. But I swear, in 99% of the anime I've seen with psychically strong women, they always look exactly the same as all the other females, as if female body builders and athletes don't have muscles. I understand some anime aren't realistic, but don't have these physically jacked males in an anime have this large builds, but then turn around having the females look like twigs yet have the same brute strength in the same anime. This is another problem that hardly exists in HxH since we have physically strong females with hulk-like bodies like Bisky or Tsubone. Just to note, I hadn't read your posts towards Tetris about the ants, and the second post wasn't directed at HXH, just anime in general. |
| Jaywalker. |
tsudecimo said: Epicenter said: As for Naruto and female characters in battle series being laughable(though I am aware it's possible Ichii was joking). I've never been a fan of how physically strong female characters are done in anime. Like with physically super strong males at least most of the time they have a strong build, some of them are even brimming with muscle on muscle like the hulk. But I swear, in 99% of the anime I've seen with psychically strong women, they always look exactly the same as all the other females, as if female body builders and athletes don't have muscles. I understand some anime aren't realistic, but don't have these physically jacked males in an anime have this large builds, but then turn around having the females look like twigs yet have the same brute strength in the same anime. Though this isn't much about gender roles, other than the fact that anime are extremely against having muscular looking female characters most of the time. Just had to say this. Lol no. Most of the strong characters, female or not, aren't muscular in anime. Muscular people is an old thing now, and thank god for that. Check Naruto for example, most of the physically strong characters barely show any muscles. It's until the Raikage, that a muscular character is prominently shown. Generally in Shounen manga, having a lot of muscles hints at the character being weak, and those who look weak are actually very strong, it's a trope now. A silly trope if you ask me. But I'm talking about anime that don't have that trope, but legit have muscular men as physically strong, yet all the psychically strong women have no muscle tone at all. A good example of things being done right is when Mikasa from Attack on Titan has abs and shit. |
| Jaywalker. |
Epicenter said: True. It's really fascinating how Isayama managed to produce such a megahit without sexualising his female characters at all.A good example of things being done right is when Mikasa from Attack on Titan has abs and shit. |
Agafin said: Epicenter said: True. It's really fascinating how Isayama managed to produce such a megahit without sexualising his female characters at all.A good example of things being done right is when Mikasa from Attack on Titan has abs and shit. Yeah, come to think of it as a whole, Attack on Titan does do a good job when it comes to gender roles in my view. It doesn't do reverse gender roles to extremes, it doesn't make all characters easily defined by their genders at all. They feel like real people. |
| Jaywalker. |
Epicenter said: Agafin said: True. It's really fascinating how Isayama managed to produce such a megahit without sexualising his female characters at all. Yeah, come to think of it as a whole, Attack on Titan does do a good job when it comes to gender roles in my view. It doesn't do reverse gender roles to extremes, it doesn't make all characters easily defined by their genders at all. They feel like real people. I won't say they feel like real people since they're kinda bland but otherwise I agree that it does a very good in the gender department, it reminds of FMA but I think it does an even better job. |
| With that art, how can he sexualize them, even if he wants. The anime can. And there are many manga that don't have sexualization that are popular. And it's not like popular manga, are popular because of sexualization of some characters. It's not fascinating at all, unless you are one of the the people who think sex sells, in which case you are wrong, just like them. |
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tsudecimo said: With that art, how can he sexualize them, even if he wants. What makes you think so? tsudecimo said: Fairly popular? Sure. Megapopular/mainstream? Only if it's G rated (Pokemon, Doraemon, Ghibli stuff etc). Once it starts primarily targetting teenagers or adults, it's really hard/rare. And there are many manga that don't have sexualization that are popular. tsudecimo said: But it helps, to varying degrees.And it's not like popular manga, are popular because of sexualization of some characters. |
| His arts is ugly, why would anyone want to see some fanservice in it. With the anime, the art is improved, and it's possible, since it's aesthetically pleasing. Slam Dunk Detective Conan Black Jack Astro Boy Doraemon Touch YuYu Hakusho Oishinbo Captain Tsubasa All of this are shounen that are mainstream. I would include stuff like Naruto and HxH, FMA, but those have little, and aren't devoid of it entirely (it doesn't seem like it helped the popularity of any of them) |
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tsudecimo said: His arts is ugly, why would anyone want to see some fanservice in it. With the anime, the art is improved, and it's possible, since it's aesthetically pleasing. Slam Dunk Detective Conan Black Jack Astro Boy Doraemon Touch YuYu Hakusho Oishinbo Captain Tsubasa All of this are shounen that are mainstream. I would include stuff like Naruto and HxH, FMA, but those have little, and aren't devoid of it entirely (it doesn't seem like it helped the popularity of any of them) Back in the day, Doraemon Shizuka-chan's bathing scenes were supposedly a huge deal to japanese boys, almost like a rite of passage lol. |
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