Why do people dislike strong male protagonists?

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Apr 2012

4713

Shiratori99 said:
Why do people hate wimps?

Because they are jealous.

At least I think that could be it. I wondered why I hated whimps so much, I mean I couldnt care less right? But thinking about it I think its because of a bit of jealousy. I am what you could call a strong character, not necesarily physically, but emotionally. I never cry or show weakness. So when I see those whimps I somehow get mad how those pampered little bitches can just cry around and everything will somehow solve itself all the while I have to face my problems and try to solve them without bitching around or shoving my problems onto others. I guess I am a bit jealous of them, since they are choosing the easy way, and its actually working out for them pretty damn well, while usually the non-wimp characters dont get as lucky.

Mar 23, 2014 8:32 AM

#118

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Apr 2012

4713

sedmelluq said:

g00dnight said:
but if they're are major pussy like Shinji (seriously commeeee on, aren't you even embarrassed that your weaker then a girl..no sexist)

I think the problem with Shinji is that people like to live in a fantasy world. They'd like to think that they are super brave and in a life-or-death scenario would not be afraid of anything and do the "right thing". Shinji reminds everyone that when they'd really be in such a situation, they'd be scared just as shitless as he was. But go ahead, dream on about how courageous you think you all are, luckily the chance that you'll ever be in a similar situation is nonexistent, so your illusions will probably never be shattered.

Honestly if I where in his situation Id just say fuck it all and drive that goddamn gundam. Dying fighting in a gundam would be a lot more exciting and fullfilling than living a boring ass life for 90 years.
If it wherent about piloting a gundam tough I guess I could sort of understand it. Togh I would never be bitchign around like Shinji. Id just say fuck ya all and not do it.

Mar 23, 2014 8:41 AM

#119

zzzeally

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Apr 2012

34062

People always have the need to complain about something. First it's pussy male leads. Now it's strong male leads. Guess you have to find something in the middle of the two spectra. Then again you will probably have haters there too.

TL/DR people have opinions

Mar 23, 2014 8:47 AM

#120

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May 2013

4712

skudoops said:
It depends on the level of strength, no one really wants to see a dude power through enemies like it was nothing, not to mention the amount of asspulls on top of it. Let me give you an example..

People hate Kirito but like Guts, depending on your perspective they are the same type of character. The difference is guts doesn't plow through powerful enemies like kirito does, he goes through the lesser enemies easily though.

If anything, Guts is more of a Gary Stu than Kirito ever was. He plows through everyone without difficulty.

Mar 23, 2014 8:48 AM

#121

Mayuka

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Jul 2012

48248

baki502 said:
Honestly if I where in his situation Id just say fuck it all and drive that goddamn gundam. Dying fighting in a gundam would be a lot more exciting and fullfilling than living a boring ass life for 90 years.
If it wherent about piloting a gundam tough I guess I could sort of understand it. Togh I would never be bitchign around like Shinji. Id just say fuck ya all and not do it.

Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

underneath the stars

Mar 23, 2014 8:50 AM

#122

Trequartista

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Jan 2013

11680

Zeally said:
People always have the need to complain about something. First it's pussy male leads. Now it's strong male leads. Guess you have to find something in the middle of the two spectra. Then again you will probably have haters there too.

^this..

Kagami_Hiiragi said:
Idc if you think its weird, I have a life and friends and an income of money.

Mar 23, 2014 9:01 AM

#123

Ahenshihael

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

baki502 said:

sedmelluq said:

g00dnight said:
but if they're are major pussy like Shinji (seriously commeeee on, aren't you even embarrassed that your weaker then a girl..no sexist)

I think the problem with Shinji is that people like to live in a fantasy world. They'd like to think that they are super brave and in a life-or-death scenario would not be afraid of anything and do the "right thing". Shinji reminds everyone that when they'd really be in such a situation, they'd be scared just as shitless as he was. But go ahead, dream on about how courageous you think you all are, luckily the chance that you'll ever be in a similar situation is nonexistent, so your illusions will probably never be shattered.

Honestly if I where in his situation Id just say fuck it all and drive that goddamn gundam. Dying fighting in a gundam would be a lot more exciting and fullfilling than living a boring ass life for 90 years.
If it wherent about piloting a gundam tough I guess I could sort of understand it. Togh I would never be bitchign around like Shinji. Id just say fuck ya all and not do it.

You DO know that you are actually providing arguments in favor of the person you quoted right?

Because no matter what you say NOW, that's not what you or anyone would do.

Shinji is an actual accurate teenager put into position into which usually the most gary stu special of specialest lead characters are put. And he freaks like a normal human being instead of suddenly being THE BEST at everything like your usual unrealistic self-insert lead character would.

Mar 23, 2014 9:03 AM

#124

Tobi

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Dec 2013

1974

I don't. It makes me like the character more.

Mar 23, 2014 9:03 AM

#125

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Jul 2013

1610

Dark_Chaos said:

skudoops said:
It depends on the level of strength, no one really wants to see a dude power through enemies like it was nothing, not to mention the amount of asspulls on top of it. Let me give you an example..

People hate Kirito but like Guts, depending on your perspective they are the same type of character. The difference is guts doesn't plow through powerful enemies like kirito does, he goes through the lesser enemies easily though.

If anything, Guts is more of a Gary Stu than Kirito ever was. He plows through everyone without difficulty.

While Guts may be very powerful, he does have personality traits that prevent him from being a Gary Stu. For one, after the events of the anime/Golden Age Arc, he becomes a complete asshole, disregarding civilian life when in battles, basically saying "too bad, so sad" if someone dies.

Really, he's only admired for his strength, while his personality is the one that prevents him from being a Gary Stu, and thus, a well-written character. He's depicted as a mad beast driven by revenge and anger that's so hot it threatens to consume him and his friends. This even scares the people around him, so they often let him be, making him the loner he was born as. Of course, I'm talking about the manga, just in case you've only seen the anime.

In contrast, Kirito is depicted as the knight in shining armor, not only being very powerful and breaking the basic rules of MMOs (unless some of you guys more often solo when playing MMOs instead of partying), but also being loved and admired by his harem for his bootiful looks, flawless personality, etc. His enemies are often one-dimensional and depicted as "the big bad that's undoubtedly in the bad in contrast to our hero who is most definitely in the right," like Sugou, that red-haired female player/the leader of those bad guys in Silica's episode, etc.

And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible.

Mar 23, 2014 9:04 AM

#126

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Apr 2012

4713

mayukachan said:

baki502 said:
Honestly if I where in his situation Id just say fuck it all and drive that goddamn gundam. Dying fighting in a gundam would be a lot more exciting and fullfilling than living a boring ass life for 90 years.
If it wherent about piloting a gundam tough I guess I could sort of understand it. Togh I would never be bitchign around like Shinji. Id just say fuck ya all and not do it.

Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

What does that have to do with piloting a big ass awesome robot tough? And I did loose my father when I was 15, so I know what that feels like. Sure I wouldnt feel like it if it happened right after my father died, but his mother died quite some time ago. If I was in his situation I would have done it, I am 100% sure. I just think that driving a big ass robot > a long life. Also there is the chance I would survive it. And he sort of does in the end. Dont remember that bullshit at the end exactly but from what I got he survived all nice and dandy.

Mar 23, 2014 9:08 AM

#127

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Apr 2012

4713

Fai said:

baki502 said:

sedmelluq said:

g00dnight said:
but if they're are major pussy like Shinji (seriously commeeee on, aren't you even embarrassed that your weaker then a girl..no sexist)

I think the problem with Shinji is that people like to live in a fantasy world. They'd like to think that they are super brave and in a life-or-death scenario would not be afraid of anything and do the "right thing". Shinji reminds everyone that when they'd really be in such a situation, they'd be scared just as shitless as he was. But go ahead, dream on about how courageous you think you all are, luckily the chance that you'll ever be in a similar situation is nonexistent, so your illusions will probably never be shattered.

Honestly if I where in his situation Id just say fuck it all and drive that goddamn gundam. Dying fighting in a gundam would be a lot more exciting and fullfilling than living a boring ass life for 90 years.
If it wherent about piloting a gundam tough I guess I could sort of understand it. Togh I would never be bitchign around like Shinji. Id just say fuck ya all and not do it.

You DO know that you are actually providing arguments in favor of the person you quoted right?

Because no matter what you say NOW, that's not what you or anyone would do.

Shinji is an actual accurate teenager put into position into which usually the most gary stu special of specialest lead characters are put. And he freaks like a normal human being instead of suddenly being THE BEST at everything like your usual unrealistic self-insert lead character would.

Yeah cause you know how I would have acted. If people came to me now and offered me to become a jet fighter pilot Id most likely do it. And that is by no means as exciting as a piloting a giant big ass alien robot thing. Sure I would be scared but I would do it anyway, because some things are too exciting and thrilling to pass up just because your life is on the line.

Mar 23, 2014 9:09 AM

#128

AsianKungFu

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Sep 2013

2717

I like strong male protagonists but I like them better if they still have plenty of room for character development.

"I have been wielding a blade since before your were swimming around your father's scrotum." - Kurou

Mar 23, 2014 9:14 AM

#129

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Jul 2013

1610

mayukachan said:
Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

baki502 said:
What does that have to do with piloting a big ass awesome robot tough?

Oh, you know. Only everything. Unless you missed everything about Evangelion, that is.

And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible.

Mar 23, 2014 9:15 AM

#130

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Apr 2012

4713

JabonHR said:

Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

What does that have to do with piloting a big ass awesome robot tough?

Oh, you know. Only everything. Unless you missed everything about Evangelion, that is.

Yeah but I am not shinji. If I got the chance to pilot a big ass robot everything else in the world becomes insignificant in comparison. Hell if the second coming of jesus christ happened Id rather pilot that big ass robot than see him coming.

Mar 23, 2014 9:19 AM

#131

VirtusSignum

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Jan 2014

505

stealthdasher said:
I have recently noticed that some people get pissed when they see a powerful male protagonist in an anime.

I don't like it when people use the terms 'Mary Sue' and 'Gary Stu' to label the character and then follow up by blindly bashing the anime without even giving it a chance.

I think that as anime fans we should remain open-minded and not judge based on prejudice.

It is the same reason why people hate physically fit people at the gym. Jealousy.

Mar 23, 2014 9:21 AM

#132

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Jul 2013

1610

baki502 said:

JabonHR said:

Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

What does that have to do with piloting a big ass awesome robot tough?

Oh, you know. Only everything. Unless you missed everything about Evangelion, that is.

Yeah but I am not shinji. If I got the chance to pilot a big ass robot everything else in the world becomes insignificant in comparison. Hell if the second coming of jesus christ happened Id rather pilot that big ass robot than see him coming.

No, piloting an Evangelion would be suffering, as the show spent a lot of time showing you that.
A.) When in battles, you'd feel every hit land on you as if it were inflicted on your naked flesh, so you'd feel it like it was really happening to you if you were being electrocuted, impaled, being practically incinerated, etc.
B.)

And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible.

Mar 23, 2014 9:24 AM

#133

sub9me

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Apr 2013

1108

Only if they are poorly illustrated like Kirito

It is so dense. Every single image has so many things going on.

Mar 23, 2014 9:27 AM

#134

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Apr 2012

4713

JabonHR said:

baki502 said:

JabonHR said:

Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

What does that have to do with piloting a big ass awesome robot tough?

Oh, you know. Only everything. Unless you missed everything about Evangelion, that is.

Yeah but I am not shinji. If I got the chance to pilot a big ass robot everything else in the world becomes insignificant in comparison. Hell if the second coming of jesus christ happened Id rather pilot that big ass robot than see him coming.

No, piloting an Evangelion would be suffering, as the show spent a lot of time showing you that.
A.) When in battles, you'd feel every hit land on you as if it were inflicted on your naked flesh, so you'd feel it like it was really happening to you if you were being electrocuted, impaled, being practically incinerated, etc.
B.)

Still worth it. As for Point A) I dont see the problem, I mean a brawl would be kind of boring without feeling pain anyway right? As for point B) that kind of sucks, but Id still risk it. As I said I just think that having the chance to do something like that is just way more exciting than living a long life, forming a family and dying of old age.

And I could always just back out if I decided that my fear of death and pain, or the wish for a long life with family and friends would be higher than the excitement getting from piloting that thing. But as I am now, I think I would do it. At least for one mission or two, maybe after that the excitement I get from it would get smaller.

Mar 23, 2014 9:58 AM

#135

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Jan 2014

10453

baki502 said:

JabonHR said:

baki502 said:

JabonHR said:

Would you? Would you really? If you were a 14-year-old teenager who's supposedly hated by his father and lost his mother...

What does that have to do with piloting a big ass awesome robot tough?

Oh, you know. Only everything. Unless you missed everything about Evangelion, that is.

Yeah but I am not shinji. If I got the chance to pilot a big ass robot everything else in the world becomes insignificant in comparison. Hell if the second coming of jesus christ happened Id rather pilot that big ass robot than see him coming.

No, piloting an Evangelion would be suffering, as the show spent a lot of time showing you that.
A.) When in battles, you'd feel every hit land on you as if it were inflicted on your naked flesh, so you'd feel it like it was really happening to you if you were being electrocuted, impaled, being practically incinerated, etc.
B.)

Still worth it. As for Point A) I dont see the problem, I mean a brawl would be kind of boring without feeling pain anyway right?

But a brawl rarely ever involves being impaled or having your limbs cut/ripped off, cause that's basically the type of pain you should prepare to feel when deciding to fight with an eva (and I doubt that's the type of pain one can possibly prepare themselves to until they actually experience it).

JabonHR said:

Dark_Chaos said:

skudoops said:
It depends on the level of strength, no one really wants to see a dude power through enemies like it was nothing, not to mention the amount of asspulls on top of it. Let me give you an example..

People hate Kirito but like Guts, depending on your perspective they are the same type of character. The difference is guts doesn't plow through powerful enemies like kirito does, he goes through the lesser enemies easily though.

If anything, Guts is more of a Gary Stu than Kirito ever was. He plows through everyone without difficulty.

While Guts may be very powerful, he does have personality traits that prevent him from being a Gary Stu. For one, after the events of the anime/Golden Age Arc, he becomes a complete asshole, disregarding civilian life when in battles, basically saying "too bad, so sad" if someone dies.

Really, he's only admired for his strength, while his personality is the one that prevents him from being a Gary Stu, and thus, a well-written character. He's depicted as a mad beast driven by revenge and anger that's so hot it threatens to consume him and his friends. This even scares the people around him, so they often let him be, making him the loner he was born as. Of course, I'm talking about the manga, just in case you've only seen the anime.

In contrast, Kirito is depicted as the knight in shining armor, not only being very powerful and breaking the basic rules of MMOs (unless some of you guys more often solo when playing MMOs instead of partying), but also being loved and admired by his harem for his bootiful looks, flawless personality, etc. His enemies are often one-dimensional and depicted as "the big bad that's undoubtedly in the bad in contrast to our hero who is most definitely in the right," like Sugou, that red-haired female player/the leader of those bad guys in Silica's episode, etc.

This. Also important to note that while Guts is certainly OP, he always suffers severe physical after effects each time he goes all out to fight (see when he

.

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Mar 23, 2014 12:12 PM

#136

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May 2013

4712

JabonHR said:

Dark_Chaos said:

skudoops said:
It depends on the level of strength, no one really wants to see a dude power through enemies like it was nothing, not to mention the amount of asspulls on top of it. Let me give you an example..

People hate Kirito but like Guts, depending on your perspective they are the same type of character. The difference is guts doesn't plow through powerful enemies like kirito does, he goes through the lesser enemies easily though.

If anything, Guts is more of a Gary Stu than Kirito ever was. He plows through everyone without difficulty.

While Guts may be very powerful, he does have personality traits that prevent him from being a Gary Stu. For one, after the events of the anime/Golden Age Arc, he becomes a complete asshole, disregarding civilian life when in battles, basically saying "too bad, so sad" if someone dies.

Really, he's only admired for his strength, while his personality is the one that prevents him from being a Gary Stu, and thus, a well-written character. He's depicted as a mad beast driven by revenge and anger that's so hot it threatens to consume him and his friends. This even scares the people around him, so they often let him be, making him the loner he was born as. Of course, I'm talking about the manga, just in case you've only seen the anime.

In contrast, Kirito is depicted as the knight in shining armor, not only being very powerful and breaking the basic rules of MMOs (unless some of you guys more often solo when playing MMOs instead of partying), but also being loved and admired by his harem for his bootiful looks, flawless personality, etc. His enemies are often one-dimensional and depicted as "the big bad that's undoubtedly in the bad in contrast to our hero who is most definitely in the right," like Sugou, that red-haired female player/the leader of those bad guys in Silica's episode, etc.

Yeah, I was only talking about the Anime versions, as I have not read the Manga versions of either, so obviously I cannot comment on them, but regarding the Anime versions, my statement stands.

Mar 23, 2014 12:33 PM

#137

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Jan 2014

10453

@Dark_Chaos Difference is Guts has a personality. Also the level of OPness alone does not make a character a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Mar 23, 2014 12:42 PM

#138

Kanoe_Yuuko

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Jan 2014

9

I like strong male protagonists.. actually prefer them

Mar 23, 2014 12:44 PM

#139

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Apr 2012

4713

I think people hate this kind of OP leads: http://i.imgur.com/wXdez5s.jpg

But like this kind of OP leads: http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/04/30/12345/rambo.jpg

Mar 23, 2014 12:45 PM

#140

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Jan 2014

10453

baki502 said:
I think people hate this kind of OP leads: http://i.imgur.com/wXdez5s.jpg

But like this kind of OP leads: http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/04/30/12345/rambo.jpg

Yeah, I think you nailed it.

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Mar 23, 2014 12:47 PM

#141

LazyBlackGuy

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Feb 2014

89

Threads like this that makes me realize people will never be satisfied with anything.

Mar 23, 2014 12:56 PM

#142

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May 2013

4712

Sapewloth said:
@Dark_Chaos Difference is Guts has a personality. Also the level of OPness alone does not make a character a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

You are implying Kirito does not?

Mar 23, 2014 12:58 PM

#143

Solos

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Jun 2011

4455

baki502 said:
I think people hate this kind of OP leads: http://i.imgur.com/wXdez5s.jpg

But like this kind of OP leads: http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/04/30/12345/rambo.jpg

/thread.

Mar 23, 2014 1:03 PM

#144

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Jan 2014

10453

Dark_Chaos said:

Sapewloth said:
@Dark_Chaos Difference is Guts has a personality. Also the level of OPness alone does not make a character a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

You are implying Kirito does not?

Yes.

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Mar 23, 2014 1:08 PM

#145

lahzor

Offline

Jan 2014

177

SolBlade said:

baki502 said:
I think people hate this kind of OP leads: http://i.imgur.com/wXdez5s.jpg

But like this kind of OP leads: http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/04/30/12345/rambo.jpg

/thread.

^ This

Mar 23, 2014 1:12 PM

#146

Offline

Apr 2012

4713

Sapewloth said:

Dark_Chaos said:

Sapewloth said:
@Dark_Chaos Difference is Guts has a personality. Also the level of OPness alone does not make a character a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

You are implying Kirito does not?

Yes.

Look at this personality right here!

Mar 23, 2014 1:16 PM

#147

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May 2013

4712

Sapewloth said:

Dark_Chaos said:

Sapewloth said:
@Dark_Chaos Difference is Guts has a personality. Also the level of OPness alone does not make a character a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

You are implying Kirito does not?

Yes.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take you seriously, Sapewloth. You see, I hear this statement getting thrown around a lot, but when I question those individuals on how they came to such a conclusion, I don't exactly get a solid answer.

Mar 23, 2014 1:50 PM

#148

Offline

Jul 2013

1610

Dark_Chaos said:

Sapewloth said:

Dark_Chaos said:

Sapewloth said:
@Dark_Chaos Difference is Guts has a personality. Also the level of OPness alone does not make a character a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

You are implying Kirito does not?

Yes.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take you seriously, Sapewloth. You see, I hear this statement getting thrown around a lot, but when I question those individuals on how they came to such a conclusion, I don't exactly get a solid answer.

I just spent like twenty minutes practically trying to write an essay on his not-personality.

He really doesn't have much going for him, other than basic traits like "strong, courageous, determined, etc." The author doesn't know what to do with Kirito. At first, he tries to connect Kirito with the viewer by presenting him as a shut-in who plays video games to escape from his real life, but that connection is thrown out the window when it turns out he has traits that no shut-in actually has, like magic charm that gets him a harem, charisma that gets him friends, skills that allow him to solo an MMORPG without partying up just because "muh edginess and loneliness."

The prosecution rests. The defense may now speak on what kind of unique characteristics Kirito possesses as a person.

And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible.

Mar 23, 2014 2:17 PM

#149

Tsumayouji

Offline

Nov 2007

334

I'm gonna bust out some Joseph Campbell on you people:

So according to story writing theory, "good stories" require conflict and a "character arc." A "character arc" requires growth, aka the character changes in some way, either mentally, emotionally, or physically (usually all three).

Joseph Campbell was a big-time mythology nerd who studied myths the world over and came up with a formula for the one myth - known as the "Hero's Journey," which most all of Hollywood has used as a guideline for creating good cinema since. While the Hero's Journey is not a necessity for creating a good story, nordoes adhering to it always lead to one (some great films break from this), it was the first template for categorizing and discussing what enduring stories were and why. And it underscored the notion that you need a character to change in some way to be engaging.

So the "problem" with most "strong" male protagonists is that they have no character arc, no growth. They don't change emotionally or mentally. They're just super strong. And the lack of change means they're typically found to be inherently uninteresting.

You can get away with this if they aren't the main character. Take Alucard from Hellsing. While he is a core character, Seras and even Integra are more of the main characters, and they do go through their own arcs that change them. Guts is a strong dude, but we see him transform into who he is.

Rambo undergoes a HUGE character arc. The movie isn't about how much of a badass he is, but how he struggles with PTSD. The struggle being the key.

Mar 23, 2014 2:24 PM

#150