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BitchMaster said: Nayrael said: And... how did Cal grow up so quickly in 2 years? PLEASE ask that in episode 20 tread where ages are discussed to great lengths since that is the first ep where grown up Cal appears. Wow, apparently, you got ignored by more people than I thought, Nayrael ;) So many people ask this question. =_= |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
BitchMaster said: Nayrael said: And... how did Cal grow up so quickly in 2 years? PLEASE ask that in episode 20 tread where ages are discussed to great lengths since that is the first ep where grown up Cal appears. Wow, apparently, you got ignored by more people than I thought, Nayrael ;) So many people ask this question. =_= |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
kerobear said: BitchMaster said: Nayrael said: And... how did Cal grow up so quickly in 2 years? PLEASE ask that in episode 20 tread where ages are discussed to great lengths since that is the first ep where grown up Cal appears. Wow, apparently, you got ignored by more people than I thought, Nayrael ;) So many people ask this question. =_= So many people double post recently. =_= |
 If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
BitchMaster said: kerobear said: BitchMaster said: Nayrael said: And... how did Cal grow up so quickly in 2 years? PLEASE ask that in episode 20 tread where ages are discussed to great lengths since that is the first ep where grown up Cal appears. Wow, apparently, you got ignored by more people than I thought, Nayrael ;) So many people ask this question. =_= So many people double post recently. =_= clciked it twice. Whatever:O anyways:D WE SHould be on topic! |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
wakka9ca said: The thing is, a good adaption does not need dedicated people trying to explain everything after each episode in order for people to understand it. This, pretty much. I think Phantom has been struggling, in part, due to this. The characters' motivations do make more sense with the VN explanations from these discussions, but without them, the anime failed at getting certain points across to its viewers. It would be like...oh, I don't know...trying to watch Naruto without knowing all about the Uchiha massacre. Regarding the episode itself, it had its good points and bad points. Overall, I think the pacing was bad - we got some good high points with some good development (e.g. scenes between Cal and Mio, Shiga going after SM), but it got bogged down at other points. For example, the "showdown" between Lizzie and Cal was dragged out too long, IMO. Just when I thought the song was going to end, it kept going...and going...A dramatic way to increase the tension? Perhaps, but it probably would have been moreso if we hadn't seen Cal pull the same trick just a couple episodes ago. Moreover, Lizzie's reasons for not killing Cal (when she killed Claudia with relative "ease") seemed very confusing to me. After all, Cal's actions are an obvious betrayal of Inferno, so logically, she needs to be killed off. Claudia was the same - she betrayed Inferno and so she was offed...by Lizzie, who was supposedly more loyal to Inferno than to her own friend. So, why was it so hard for Lizzie to kill Cal? It's inconsistent. However, Nayrael's VN explanation makes a bit more sense, but again, we shouldn't need outside explanations to enjoy an anime. The anime didn't make much of an emphasis on Lizzie's relationship with Cal so it seemed, to me, to be a strictly business kind of relationship, not one with much depth; thus, Lizzie's decision seemed illogical and, frankly, stupid, and I was unable to feel sad for her death. |
| It's not like you'd NEED any outside VN knowledge to understand the show. There are enough anime-only viewers who can follow the story and particularly the psychological turns and twists all by themselves. However, most anime shows nowadays take the trivial-dumb approach: Explain whatever happens explicitly and repeatedly. Spell everything out so that the laziest viewer can't miss anything even if he wanted to. And Phantom simply doesn't do that. It demands close attention and a great deal of empathy to figure out WHAT is making the characters tick, and many viewers - particularly those who watch the show for the action - are unwilling or unable to do that. If you're unable to pick up the clues the anime leaves us, there are different ways to react. You can rewatch the episode more than once and try to see what's going on. You can mark these seeming inconsistencies in your memory and see if anything happening in the future might explain them. You can form theories and assumptions and see if they turn out to be correct in the future. Or you can take the "whiner" approach, refuse to use your brain and claim that the anime makes no sense. This forum seems to have a particularly high number of this type, others seem to have much less problems of this kind. So, Phantom is definitely a show which is relatively demanding on the viewer, and is more appealing to the drama/romance viewer who is generally more used to picking up and combining subtle clues than the average guns-and-action fan. The main aspect remains the psychological drama, not the action. So, it sure isn't a show for everybody. |
| Wo wo wo wo, WTF was that preview? What's this "If you can live on, that'll be the proof I lived" shit? If Elen dies before Cal and Reiji then... f*ck, f*ck, f*ck! >< Oh a side note, yeah yuri rape! :D Also, remember people: do not give mentally disturbed girls with a disturbing past a gun. :° |
| Cal's a bitch, kthnxbai No wait.. I've got more to say : o Really, what makes Lizzie care for Cal? I didn't think she cared that much really : o Oh well, that cost her quite a lot, it seems. And now it seems it's time to introduce Scythe's army of phantoms : D (or something like that) Alexstratz said: Also, remember people: do not give mentally disturbed girls with a disturbing past a gun. :° Right, gotta remember that *nods* |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
Mentar said: It's not like you'd NEED any outside VN knowledge to understand the show. There are enough anime-only viewers who can follow the story and particularly the psychological turns and twists all by themselves. However, most anime shows nowadays take the trivial-dumb approach: Explain whatever happens explicitly and repeatedly. Spell everything out so that the laziest viewer can't miss anything even if he wanted to. And Phantom simply doesn't do that. It demands close attention and a great deal of empathy to figure out WHAT is making the characters tick, and many viewers - particularly those who watch the show for the action - are unwilling or unable to do that. If you're unable to pick up the clues the anime leaves us, there are different ways to react. You can rewatch the episode more than once and try to see what's going on. You can mark these seeming inconsistencies in your memory and see if anything happening in the future might explain them. You can form theories and assumptions and see if they turn out to be correct in the future. Or you can take the "whiner" approach, refuse to use your brain and claim that the anime makes no sense. This forum seems to have a particularly high number of this type, others seem to have much less problems of this kind. So, Phantom is definitely a show which is relatively demanding on the viewer, and is more appealing to the drama/romance viewer who is generally more used to picking up and combining subtle clues than the average guns-and-action fan. The main aspect remains the psychological drama, not the action. So, it sure isn't a show for everybody. I agree and disagree with you at the same time. I have no problem understanding the show and i don't think Phantom is that complicated anyway. Anyone who can understand Series Experiment Lain, NGE and others, won't have a problem understanding Phantom. The people who say it makes no sense in general is because they don't care do analyze what they saw. But not if they say it makes no sense according to some things the VN viewers said. There is something that the ones who saw the VN don't understand. And that is that the anime is not the VN. It's by it's own a stand alone show. For example Cal having sex with Reiji really didn't seem to happen in the anime. Even if they did it in the VN in the anime it didn't happen. The "i was his ex" that Cal said in this episode to Mio is more of a try to tease Mio and to show that Cal kind of had a desire for something more with Reiji. That's what logically an anime only viewer can speculate. They can certainly throw at us that they had sex because they left a little doubt but it will be badly made of them. The guy was sitting there fully clothed in the middle of the night. There is no logic in why he would be like that with no where to go after he had sex. And now we have the death of Lizzie. According to the VN viewers they had some deep relationship and staff. Well no matter how smart you are that is not there in the anime, there is a relationship but not that deep. But still there is a perfectly good reason for Lizzie not to shoot her as viewed by an anime only viewer. Lizzie seemed to be tired of killing and fighting, especially after she shot Claudia her fighting spirit was gone and now she didn't want to shoot and kill this young girl she knew that had her own problems and suffering like Claudia and other people that Lizzie saw, she was just tired of living like that. She just wanted to stop. That makes sense with her words on how heavy her gun felt like lately. Even if someone who knows the VN tells me some other reason i have to say that is irrelevant and that the anime had it's own version of different explanations from the VN. The anime doesn't have to be the same. Ether that or then i must find it to be poorly made. Basically if the VN didn't exist we all could be happy making our theories of what happened and there are enough explanations in the anime to come to certain conclusions. But then someone with VN knowledge jumps in the middle giving us some explanation that in the anime didn't really seemed that way and if it truly is that then the anime makes no sense. So am saying to those who saw the VN, shut up because the anime doesn't have to be exactly like your precious VN. It can have it's own story. |
MonadSep 7, 2009 3:25 AM
Monad said: For example Cal having sex with Reiji really didn't seem to happen in the anime. Even if they did it in the VN in the anime it didn't happen. The "i was his ex" that Cal said in this episode to Mio is more of a try to tease Mio and to show that Cal kind of had a desire for something more with Reiji. That's what logically an anime only viewer can speculate. They can certainly throw at us that they had sex because they left a little doubt but it will be badly made of them. The guy was sitting there fully clothed in the middle of the night. There is no logic in why he would be like that with no where to go after he had sex. Exactly. People just need to get over the fact that they didn't have sex. There is evidence to support it, so please, just give it up. If he had slept with her, he would have started treating her like a girlfriend BUT CONTINUED TO TREAT HER AS A LITTLE KID, and in the VN, that's what continued to happen if you chose not to become Cal's lover. Also in the VN, it finally dawned on Reiji that Cal had feelings for him, and talked to himself about it ("why didn't I see it before?" etc.) This was never evident in the anime that Reiji really knew what Cal was speaking of. As to why Reiji said that "she was his...". He couldn't exactly say she was a little kid he was taking care of back in the USA and then abandoned her. And why did Cal say she was is "ex" to Mio? Two words: Mind Fuckery. |
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| Actually, the anime makes sense itself! It doesn't need the VN to explain what's happening. Yes, Cal and Reiji didn't have sex. There are lots of evidences and just because people have a choice t have sex with Cal in the VN doesn't mean that Cal and Reiji has to have sex. It may be harsh to say it that way but, that's just Cal/Reiji fans' very very biased interpretations (without any solid evidences). Errr what could Reiji say at that time? "She's a vengeful spirit who came all the way just to hunt me!" "She's a kid whom I trained to be killer, now she's testing her skills on me." "She's a sniper form a crazy organization that wants to rule the underworld.". The other possibility was (if they had sex), "She's my crazy ex-girlfriend who came to kill me and my sister. I turned her into a woman and a killer No worries though, I don't think that she'll do anything to you ^^". So, there aren't any special meanings to why Reiji couldn't end that sentence. Its just that he doesn't know how to explain the situation without revealing his true identity. It's not that he's getting emo about anything there. For Cal being Reiji's ex... well let's say "self-proclaimed ex girlfriend!" XD |
And now we have the death of Lizzie. According to the VN viewers they had some deep relationship and staff. According to ANIME, they had some deep relationship and stuff (the flashback). Lizzie seemed to be tired of killing and fighting, especially after she shot Claudia her fighting spirit was gone and now she didn't want to shoot and kill this young girl she knew that had her own problems and suffering like Claudia and other people that Lizzie saw, she was just tired of living like that. She just wanted to stop. That makes sense with her words on how heavy her gun felt like lately. Why not just kill her, save Mio and go into retirement or find a better job? It makes no sense to let that "person who involves innocents" live, sacrifice Mio's safety just because she was tired (and the same line showed that she cared for her safety) or let Cal kill her at all. As far as Lizzie in Drei arc goes, VN knowledge doesn't mean much. The VN Lizzie was unable to kill Claudia, the anime Lizzie was. The VN Lizzie was close to Cal because she blamed herself for what happened to her and had shown a lot more disgust towards Cal, the anime Lizzie seems to have been Cal's mentor and she seems to have had close relationship with Cal judging by one of the flashbacks, and I don't remember any mentioning that she blamed herself. So even arguments about the scene are a bit different when talking about the VN and anime. In other words, VN readers and anime-only watchers are on the same level here. As far as the adaptation goes, the adaptation does a great job and I can tell you that anime-only watchers can come to the same conclusion like VN readers do... as long as they give it some more thought. Even while I was still an anime-only watcher, my views on the episode were very, very similar, often identical, to Mentar's who was the VN reader. I have seen from personal discussions with some anime-only watchers that their views on situation were very similar to mine, even tough anime did not show it so obviously as the VN did. |
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Mentar said: It's not like you'd NEED any outside VN knowledge to understand the show. There are enough anime-only viewers who can follow the story and particularly the psychological turns and twists all by themselves. I wouldn't call Phantom a "subtle" series and I wouldn't say it's hard to understand. It's not, and far away from being so. It is trying to look "deep" but unfortunately, it didn't quite make it. And again, people are OVERanalyzing stuffs where it really isn't subtle. Again, I agree that some anime are too explicit and good anime don't need to be like that.... And it is pretty clear that Lizzie wanted to protect Cal like Reiji did. That was directly said by Lizzie in the anime. That only hints a mentor-apprentice relationship between Lizzie and Cal, but not anything romantic or deeper. Yes, Lizzie is probably yuri, but it doesn't mean she holds any love interest towards Cal. The same thing can be said about Reiji and Cal's relationship. I don't think Reiji ever considered Cal as a lover in the anime. It was the other side around.... But then, you come across the definition of "love" and which kind of "love" we are talking about. |
wakka9caSep 7, 2009 8:37 AM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
LadyOrihime said: Exactly. People just need to get over the fact that they didn't have sex. There is evidence to support it, so please, just give it up. The scene is ambiguous, and certainly on purpose so. There is neither positive nor negative evidence for it. If he had slept with her, he would have started treating her like a girlfriend BUT CONTINUED TO TREAT HER AS A LITTLE KID, and in the VN, that's what continued to happen if you chose not to become Cal's lover. This is just wrong. There was no time for a behavior change, he was immediately called off to the Godoh group showdown. Besides, whether or not they had sex is not the point. They were both promising to stay with each other forever, so I can understand where Cal is coming from. To deny this... I smell some major Elen-fanboyism here ^_^; |
Nayrael said: And now we have the death of Lizzie. According to the VN viewers they had some deep relationship and staff. According to ANIME, they had some deep relationship and stuff (the flashback). Yeah and everyone else is an idiot. Only you know the truth. Listen throwing a flashback like that doesn't make it a very deep important relationship like she had with Claudia. Off course they had some kind of relationship that is enough not wanting to kill her but it wasn't like that and it wasn't enough to prefer to die instead of shooting her. If her character didn't change the last few years she would have shot her. The reason i gave is a lot more logical from every view for anyone who watches the anime. I don't give a shit how it was or how you thought it was in the VN. Nayrael said: Lizzie seemed to be tired of killing and fighting, especially after she shot Claudia her fighting spirit was gone and now she didn't want to shoot and kill this young girl she knew that had her own problems and suffering like Claudia and other people that Lizzie saw, she was just tired of living like that. She just wanted to stop. That makes sense with her words on how heavy her gun felt like lately. Why not just kill her, save Mio and go into retirement or find a better job? It makes no sense to let that "person who involves innocents" live, sacrifice Mio's safety just because she was tired (and the same line showed that she cared for her safety) or let Cal kill her at all. You really know nothing about psychology to you? That's not how it works. Also i don't think Inferno would just let her quit. When you are tired in that way you don't think "yeah let's just kill this last one and then go home". I think you are the one who don't understands or you are so adsorbed in your own VN explanations and staff that you don't see what the anime is showing you right in frond of your eyes. Nayrael said: As far as Lizzie in Drei arc goes, VN knowledge doesn't mean much. The VN Lizzie was unable to kill Claudia, the anime Lizzie was. The VN Lizzie was close to Cal because she blamed herself for what happened to her and had shown a lot more disgust towards Cal, the anime Lizzie seems to have been Cal's mentor and she seems to have had close relationship with Cal judging by one of the flashbacks, and I don't remember any mentioning that she blamed herself. So even arguments about the scene are a bit different when talking about the VN and anime. In other words, VN readers and anime-only watchers are on the same level here. So they are different. Nice. Then stop giving us all this supposed information from the VN and big explanations and let us enjoy the show. We have are own brains and we can come to our own conclusions by just watching the anime. |
MonadSep 7, 2009 9:32 AM
| Monad... thank you for entertaining me :D Yeah and everyone else is an idiot. Only you know the truth. I never called or consider those who disagree with me an idiot. It was just MY interpretation and I can't care less if people agree or disagree with me. What I write there is just a material for people to read. I also like to discuss stuff with others. And yes, I know the truth. You also know the truth, but it is a bit different different truth. Bitchmater's truth is also different then ours are, tough it probably has some similarities Listen throwing a flashback like that doesn't make it a very deep important relationship like she had with Claudia. When did I say that it was as deep and important. I just said they were close, not how much close. IMO, the flashbacks were supposed to show that they were close. Not too close, but still close to some extent. The reason i gave is a lot more logical from every view for anyone who saw that scene in the anime. You are living dreams or have some very high opinions about yourself if you believe that every anime watcher agrees with you or see it the way you do. EVERYONE has their opinion and not even VN readers agree with one another. And no, I don't consider your explanation logical. And before you try to make that cheap excuse again, I repeat: VN can in no way affect my interpretation. I don't give a shit how it was or how you thought it was in the VN. VN, VN, VN... you are discarding all of my arguments just because I played the VN. As I said already, the scene isn't the same like in VN and my interpretation there is different. VN can't affect my impression of this scene. I thought I made that very, very clear. The fact that you are ignoring that and still using that idiotic excuse shows that what is written by me and you what you read are different things... you are starting to remind me of Cal Devens you know... You really know nothing about psychology to you? "You really know nothing about psychology, now do you?" is the question I could ask you because, quite frankly, I believe that your analysis is plain wrong. When you are tired in that way you don't think "yeah let's just kill this last one and then go home". You ignore Mio. Does Lizzie needs to repeat 20000000000 times the fact that she doesn't want innocents involved? Even if she was tired, you would expect her to save that girl from that "insane bitch". And Inferno might let her go as she has already proven her loyalty by killing Claudia thus she won't endanger them and since she is just a soldier, she isn't required to be forced to work under them. Even if they reject letting her go, they can give her another job. Soldiers are not the only thing Inferno needs. Waitresses are also in great demand these days ;) I think you are the one who don't understands or you are so adsorb in your own VN explanations ans staff that you don't see what the anime is showing you right in frond of your eyes. I think you are the one who doesn't understand or are absorbed in your own arrogance of not accepting the fact that people have different opinions that you don't see the fact that VN has nothing to do with my interpretations of this scene. I'll confess that sometimes I maybe am biased (and I don't care as people who think that VN info should be completely ignored have every right to ignore my posts if they believe that I am too biased. That is why I didn't mix myself into the argument about that arrogant idiot called Nayrael), but with scene I am not. We are the same here, you and I. In this situation, absolutely no VN info can be of use. Then stop giving us all this supposed information from the VN and big explanations There are people who are grateful for info I give them and there are people who like reading various interpretations and explanations the users write. I see no reason to stop just because you don't like it. and let us enjoy the show. What is stopping you from enjoying the show? What you just said makes absolutely no sense. What is forcing you read what I, or anyone else, writes anyway? If it, for God knows which reason, causes a lot of mental damage to you, then don't read it. Nobody is forcing you. I personally don't even care if you ignore me (even tough some people seem to care about me being ignored...). |
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| It is not Reiji's fault. He thought she was dead! He tried to get revenge for her. D: She's just out of her mind. She has insanity like Mariko from Elfen Lied. Total out of control sociopath who acts like killing people is ripping wings off an insect. But, yeah, she totally loves Reiji, that's obvious. And did Lizzie really die? Why does Cal look so much like Claudia? |
| Usotsuki. |
Mentar said: LadyOrihime said: Exactly. People just need to get over the fact that they didn't have sex. There is evidence to support it, so please, just give it up. The scene is ambiguous, and certainly on purpose so. There is neither positive nor negative evidence for it. If he had slept with her, he would have started treating her like a girlfriend BUT CONTINUED TO TREAT HER AS A LITTLE KID, and in the VN, that's what continued to happen if you chose not to become Cal's lover. This is just wrong. There was no time for a behavior change, he was immediately called off to the Godoh group showdown. Besides, whether or not they had sex is not the point. They were both promising to stay with each other forever, so I can understand where Cal is coming from. To deny this... I smell some major Elen-fanboyism here ^_^; YOU.MENTAR.SIR.ARE.FUKKEN.AWESOME!!! @ LadyOrihime Oh my, did you just join Zeon or something for the sudden dictatorship? If in ep 19, they just skip straight from the Cal smiling to Reiji's scene to where she was asleep with Reiji by her side, wiithout the shower background that last there longer than it was supposed to be, then you can say no "evidence". And yes, like Mentar said, it was "ambiguous" and since the Japanese are known for being ambiguous since ever, I have every right to believe they try to hide or skip something, it would be weird if you watched lots of anime and still ignore that fact. One concrete example is from Gundam Seed with the scene of Kira putting his pants on with Flay in his room and most people will argue that they havent done anything, it was ambiguous until they saw the uncensored version of that SMEX scene and all STFU. And speaking of ambiguity, I, as well as others here, have every rights to believe to a Cal X Reiji when she said she wanna be by Reiji's side forever and he, in turn, accepted it, that's a friggin' Japanese style confession, if not proposal between lovers. I find it weird that you keep deny it while I'm sure that you have read a buncha Shojo and should be familiar with that kind of roundabout way of confession, unless you have that lame excuse of "she look like a Loli so they can only be brotha, sista at best". Talk about prejudice LOL. And in case you want proofs, go watch "Tsukuyomi Moon Phase" or "Adarshan no Hanayome" to see if a Loli can have a romantic relationship with an adult or not with that same kind of roundabout confession. Secondly, when Cal said "koihibito" in this ep, please correct me for my ignorance in Japanese but isnt that mean friggin' "lover" in English? And again, we got the usual "B-but she said that to piss Mio off"... Sorry? Why the heck does she need to do that when the mere truth about Mio's origins is already enough to shock her shitless? Also, certain people are bothered by Cal's motive of revenge, then if they were to be lovers, doesnt that sound more convincing as a reason for revenge? And once again, if you wanna know how far a woman's jealousy can get, go watch "School Days" or "Shuffle" to know what I mean. It's pretty reasonable IMO for a woman to be that possessive since there're lots of news like that in 3-D world too ;p Last but not the least, the thing you guys are watching now are from a friggin' VN, so that means the VN's events are more credible since it was the original, authentic or whatever you like to call it. The adaptation seems close to the VN till now, so even if Reiji didnt do "that" with Cal, the fact that they were lovers without doing "that" still remains, unless you can ride the show producers here, put his face on a video screen and record him confirming that they didnt intend to adapt Reiji X Cal's relationship then it was solid proof to STFU us Cal's fans, but if you cant do that, then please kindly let the others have their own beliefs, like you have yours, 'Kay? |
BitchMasterSep 7, 2009 1:24 PM
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
Nayrael said: Monad... thank you for entertaining me :D Yeah and everyone else is an idiot. Only you know the truth. I never called or consider those who disagree with me an idiot. It was just MY interpretation and I can't care less if people agree or disagree with me. What I write there is just a material for people to read. I also like to discuss stuff with others. And yes, I know the truth. You also know the truth, but it is a bit different different truth. Bitchmater's truth is also different then ours are, tough it probably has some similarities Listen throwing a flashback like that doesn't make it a very deep important relationship like she had with Claudia. When did I say that it was as deep and important. I just said they were close, not how much close. IMO, the flashbacks were supposed to show that they were close. Not too close, but still close to some extent. The reason i gave is a lot more logical from every view for anyone who saw that scene in the anime. You are living dreams or have some very high opinions about yourself if you believe that every anime watcher agrees with you or see it the way you do. EVERYONE has their opinion and not even VN readers agree with one another. And no, I don't consider your explanation logical. And before you try to make that cheap excuse again, I repeat: VN can in no way affect my interpretation. I don't give a shit how it was or how you thought it was in the VN. VN, VN, VN... you are discarding all of my arguments just because I played the VN. As I said already, the scene isn't the same like in VN and my interpretation there is different. VN can't affect my impression of this scene. I thought I made that very, very clear. The fact that you are ignoring that and still using that idiotic excuse shows that what is written by me and you what you read are different things... you are starting to remind me of Cal Devens you know... You really know nothing about psychology to you? "You really know nothing about psychology, now do you?" is the question I could ask you because, quite frankly, I believe that your analysis is plain wrong. When you are tired in that way you don't think "yeah let's just kill this last one and then go home". You ignore Mio. Does Lizzie needs to repeat 20000000000 times the fact that she doesn't want innocents involved? Even if she was tired, you would expect her to save that girl from that "insane bitch". And Inferno might let her go as she has already proven her loyalty by killing Claudia thus she won't endanger them and since she is just a soldier, she isn't required to be forced to work under them. Even if they reject letting her go, they can give her another job. Soldiers are not the only thing Inferno needs. Waitresses are also in great demand these days ;) I think you are the one who don't understands or you are so adsorb in your own VN explanations ans staff that you don't see what the anime is showing you right in frond of your eyes. I think you are the one who doesn't understand or are absorbed in your own arrogance of not accepting the fact that people have different opinions that you don't see the fact that VN has nothing to do with my interpretations of this scene. I'll confess that sometimes I maybe am biased (and I don't care as people who think that VN info should be completely ignored have every right to ignore my posts if they believe that I am too biased. That is why I didn't mix myself into the argument about that arrogant idiot called Nayrael), but with scene I am not. We are the same here, you and I. In this situation, absolutely no VN info can be of use. Then stop giving us all this supposed information from the VN and big explanations There are people who are grateful for info I give them and there are people who like reading various interpretations and explanations the users write. I see no reason to stop just because you don't like it. and let us enjoy the show. What is stopping you from enjoying the show? What you just said makes absolutely no sense. What is forcing you read what I, or anyone else, writes anyway? If it, for God knows which reason, causes a lot of mental damage to you, then don't read it. Nobody is forcing you. I personally don't even care if you ignore me (even tough some people seem to care about me being ignored...). Look because this is getting too big and am kind of bored to have a huge debate analyzing every sentence, let's just say that i don't have a problem discussing things with you or you analyzing your own conclusions about the anime. But in almost every post you weren't discussing what you saw in the anime from your perspective but you used some scenes or words from the VN to "try and explain things to others". You were certainly giving the impression like we were watching something incomplete and you had the whole picture and you were kind enough to tell us about it and get us out of our ignorance. And because of that also many came to the conclusion that the anime makes no sense. How many times did you described about how certain characters felt because in the VN they also said that sentence that wasn't in the anime? Well my opinion on that is that maybe in the anime they don't have to be like they were in the VN. You weren't actually trying to discuss you were more trying to play the role of "explaining things". That's how it seemed to me and if am alone in this and the other got a different feeling then am shutting up about this. As about ruining the show certainly you can't ruin the show for me while am watching an episode but a part of the fun of watching something is talking about it and sharing your impressions with others, something we do here but after your posts the discussion was if they didn't explain that well because in the VN was like that, and that what you said doesn't make sense with what they made in the anime and staff like that. We weren't discussing about the anime as a stand alone show and what we saw in the episode anymore. Now about Lizzie and Cal i am happy to have an exchange of opinions and arguments with you if truly your opinion is not related or affected by the VN and i really hope that our conversation can continue just about this matter and are views on the episode. As you said they were "Not too close, but still close to some extent". Well no one really throws away his life for that. It needs more reasons than that to not fight back. Ether a very very strong bond between two people or some other reason like the one i gave. Claudia and how Lizzie became after killing her, had a lot more to do with her not shooting back that any relationship she had with Cal. And Lizzie didn't think of Cal as an "insane bitch". It was more like a "lost sheep" in her eyes. That's why she told her "I don't want to shoot you." Not because of the deep feelings of there relationship but more because she was just seeing her as just a child who lost it's way and she had no desire to shoot someone like that. Also you forget that Lizzie knew that Cal really wasn't after Mio's life. The act of pulling out her gun and telling her that she couldn't let her get innocents involved was more like a bluff in a hope that Cal would have a different reaction to a strong stand like that. As you saw she pulled her gun also but never shot with it. Certainly she wasn't happy with Cal's actions and if Cal turned her gun against Mio instead of her she might have shot her but she had no will to fight against a lost sheep's gun that was threatening only her, a woman that was getting tired and felt her gun getting heavier as time was passing, a woman that have no dreams left and no desire to continue living this life that made her kill her best friend, see so many deaths, lose so many people and was now putting her in the position to kill a young confused child like Cal. That's how i see it and it seems to explain the event's more complete with out leaving any empty points. Now if someone has some third explanation i will like to hear it. But in my eyes it's very obvious and more logical than the view you have on this matter since also many other people said they didn't see the relationship you described. In this i guess i hope other people can also tell us what they think. |
MonadSep 7, 2009 4:28 PM
Monad said: That's how it seemed to me and if am alone in this and the other got a different feeling then am shutting up about this. About time... Thank you very much!!! I appreciate it xD |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
BitchMaster said: Monad said: That's how it seemed to me and if am alone in this and the other got a different feeling then am shutting up about this. About time... Thank you very much!!! I appreciate it xD Hmmm........ BitchMaster said: Last but not the least, the thing you guys are watching now are from a friggin' VN, so that means the VN's events are more credible. O! I see, you are one of those. Sorry my brain cells don't give a fuck about you. |
Monad said: BitchMaster said: Last but not the least, the thing you guys are watching now are from a friggin' VN, so that means the VN's events are more credible. O! I see, you are one of those. Sorry my brain cells don't give a fuck about you. Huh? Didnt you say you will "shutting up" about this? Or am I missing something here? Oh, and BTW, by "don't give a fuck", isnt it the reverse of what you're doing? Tsundere? "O! I see, you are one of those." ~quoted Monad |
BitchMasterSep 7, 2009 1:08 PM
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| Not a bad a episode. I was pretty amazed that we had 22 minutes and the only thing that happened on screen was Cal kidnapping Mio, Lizzie flipping her shit, Shiga flipping his shit, and a stare off between Lizzie and Cal. For the third time, I'm very disappointed that even though Lizzie had resigned herself to getting killed by Cal, she didn't bother trying to further explain anything to her. I just don't get why she and Reiji just refuse to say anything to her. Lizzie's said more in that she said "we were trying to protect you," but still. It's just aggravating to watch. Also, I think Cal might have been crazier than I had expected from the beginning if she actually thinks that she was ever Reiji's girlfriend. Lastly, I agree with wakka and Monad. |
| I don't like Drei! I mean Cal was a very smart girl but the thought 'maybe Reiji thinks I'm dead' never crossed her mind?! It's really not that far a stretch for her to think that, she was supposed to be at the house at the time of the bombing..... Anyway still a great episode though. ^_^ I just don't like how Drei is all crazy and 'MUST KILL REIJI' like. I love Cal though! (So cute!)^_^ |
| Ok, Cal referring to herself as Reiji's ex was creepy. -_- Lizzie!!!! T_T |
| About Lizzes death scene.... Lizzie is shown to care about Cal and didn't wish for anything bad to happen. But at the same time she does have a job to do. The way I saw it was it wasn't just about Cal or Claude, because at a different time (mabye say before Claude's death) Lizze most likey would of shot Cal. Despite feeling sorry for Cal in her certain situation. Although Lizzie was in control of herself and chose her place in the underworld. Killing and death did not come that easily to her as it might to alot of others (she picked the heavist gun) and how lizzie was saying her gun is getting heavier and heavier! (and lizzie would of really felt it after she shot Claudia) you can tell that this lifesytle has been taken its toll on her and still is. So its a combinations of things in the Cal event that lead to her not being able to shoot. While her gun might be getting heavier, If it wasn't Cal and just an average Criminal sure lizzie most likey would of shot even though she doesn't shoot people without thinking. Lizze was finding it harder and harder to shoot people like Claude or Cal. I mean Cal was a very smart girl but the thought 'maybe Reiji thinks I'm dead' never crossed her mind?! I think like reiji (didn't check the apartment for her body) any solid reasoning went out the window and she was just overun by feelings to think straight. And then Scythe came by.... and from that point on she fell into darkness, and would never second guess it. |
reptiliaSep 8, 2009 5:48 AM
| Anyway, isn't this thread about the episode? Telling everyone things that happened in the VN could be spoilers if they do the same thing in the anime. I like not knowing what's going to happen! |
| Usotsuki. |
Mentar said: The scene is ambiguous, and certainly on purpose so. There is neither positive nor negative evidence for it. Yes there is. Go read my posts in the episode 22 thread. This is just wrong. There was no time for a behavior change, he was immediately called off to the Godoh group showdown. Did you purposely miss the scene where Reiji puts his hand on Cal's head before he leaves? Boyfriends do not do that to their girlfriends to console them. They hold them. Anyone who has been in a relationship knows this. That scene alone shows the extent of their relationship. Even now all Reiji can see is the sweet little kid he took in. Why else would we see him struggling in episode 22 when he had his gun pointed at her? He never saw her as a woman, but 2 years later, she is now and he's having a hard time dealing with what she has become. |
|
| The really funny thing is that you know the game and still insist on "no, no, no!" ... I wonder what you'll say if the anime proves you wrong. Which, in my estimate, has a probability of 66% and rising. Did you purposely miss the scene where Reiji puts his hand on Cal's head before he leaves? Boyfriends do not do that to their girlfriends to console them. They hold them. Anyone who has been in a relationship knows this. That scene alone shows the extent of their relationship. *rolls eyes* Listen to the expert. I've been in multiple relationships and can say that you're wrong - I've done so several times. The gesture proves or disproves nothing at all. Even now all Reiji can see is the sweet little kid he took in. Why else would we see him struggling in episode 22 when he had his gun pointed at her? He never saw her as a woman, but 2 years later, she is now and he's having a hard time dealing with what she has become. He saw the former Cal and he sees the current one. Naturally there is a disconnect. But there is no indication in his talk whatsoever that your theory is true. The only clear statement has been from Cal - she sees herself as "motto koibito". Based on the mutual confession in episode 19 alone, she already has every reason to see it this way. And whether or not they had sex or not (unclear as it is - I tend to say probably not) does not matter in my opinion. They had a teary vow to be together forever. THIS is what matters. And this - by the way - is also how Reiji sees it. You're arguing against the story as it's told. |
LadyOrihime said: Did you purposely miss the scene where Reiji puts his hand on Cal's head before he leaves? Boyfriends do not do that to their girlfriends to console them. They hold them. Anyone who has been in a relationship knows this. That scene alone shows the extent of their relationship. Put one's hand on a girl's head=something lovers in Japan do, or at least that was they want us viewers to believe so through various romance series, just because you are too lazy ( or picky?) to watch hundreds of those shows that involved lovers doing that doesnt mean what you said is the absolute TRUTH. Especially to the Japanese's eyes, you're a Gaijin who watches their show and places your judgement based on YOUR own culture while the show that you're watching is based on THEIR culture. One advice: Please go take some Anthropology class to understand stuffs like that ;) One more thing, Asian people in general are more modest than Westerners, couples wont kiss passionately in public and they rarely mouth kissing, it generally ( since there are always exceptions ) is more of a platonic relationship or just because the majority of them are shy. But the way the Japanese want to "westernize" themselves, it's just a matter of time before they became as you describe, so your point is right to some small extent... But anyway, the main reason this show was created was to suit the Japanese's audience tastes, they saw Cal X Reiji scene and they go "Kyaaa! What a sweet couple!" While you go "Nah, they are just bros..." In short, your "pat on the head" with the opposite sex can mean something different in Japan. See what I mean? Even now all Reiji can see is the sweet little kid he took in. Why else would we see him struggling in episode 22 when he had his gun pointed at her? He never saw her as a woman, but 2 years later, she is now and he's having a hard time dealing with what she has become. Pardon my stupidity, but isnt your point is seriously pointless ( no pun intended) ? Cal was someone whom Reiji loved, so of course he would struggle like he did in ep 22, no matter if he saw her as a woman or not, we always hesitate if it concerns someone we loved so I dont see your point here other than it was some kinda discrimination toward the behavior on how one should act when the target is a lover and when she is a sweet kid ;p |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
LadyOrihime said: Even now all Reiji can see is the sweet little kid he took in. Why else would we see him struggling in episode 22 when he had his gun pointed at her? He never saw her as a woman, but 2 years later, she is now and he's having a hard time dealing with what she has become. First of all I think this whole thing is pointless because we will never really know what Reiji is thinking(well unless we hear an internal monologue)..... Second...wth.....so by your logic, if he did love her he would have shot her? I don't know about you but if I saw someone I loved after 2 years of thinking she was dead I don't think I could shoot her, even if she was trying to kill me...... Also about your first point.....I have seen guys in anime do that to lovers before.....I can't actually remember any specific ones right now but I know for sure I have seen it before. Of course I have also seen big brothers do it to little sisters too so I don't really think it's a real stable argument for or against him loving her. |
BitchMaster said: LadyOrihime said: Did you purposely miss the scene where Reiji puts his hand on Cal's head before he leaves? Boyfriends do not do that to their girlfriends to console them. They hold them. Anyone who has been in a relationship knows this. That scene alone shows the extent of their relationship. Put one's hand on a girl's head=something lovers in Japan do, or at least that was they want us viewers to believe so through various romance series, just because you are too lazy ( or picky?) to watch hundreds of those shows that involved lovers doing that doesnt mean what you said is the absolute TRUTH. Especially to the Japanese's eyes, you're a Gaijin who watches their show and places your judgement based on YOUR own culture while the show that you're watching is based on THEIR culture. One advice: Please go take some Anthropology class to understand stuffs like that ;) One more thing, Asian people in general are more modest than Westerners, couples wont kiss passionately in public and they rarely mouth kissing, it generally ( since there are always exceptions ) is more of a platonic relationship or just because the majority of them are shy. But the way the Japanese want to "westernize" themselves, it's just a matter of time before they became as you describe, so your point is right to some small extent... But anyway, the main reason this show was created was to suit the Japanese's audience tastes, they saw Cal X Reiji scene and they go "Kyaaa! What a sweet couple!" While you go "Nah, they are just bros..." In short, your "pat on the head" with the opposite sex can mean something different in Japan. See what I mean? Even now all Reiji can see is the sweet little kid he took in. Why else would we see him struggling in episode 22 when he had his gun pointed at her? He never saw her as a woman, but 2 years later, she is now and he's having a hard time dealing with what she has become. Pardon my stupidity, but isnt your point is seriously pointless ( no pun intended) ? Cal was someone whom Reiji loved, so of course he would struggle like he did in ep 22, no matter if he saw her as a woman or not, we always hesitate if it concerns someone we loved so I dont see your point here other than it was some kinda discrimination toward the behavior on how one should act when the target is a lover and when she is a sweet kid ;p I think it's pretty evident that Reiji still has feelings for Cal. Second of all, when reiji putted his hand on Cal's head, it doesn't represent , either they're brother and sisters, or lovers. If reiji didn't have feelings for Cal, i think he would've shot her in the church. But he didn't... |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
| I really feel frustrated about animes when a character doesn't reply defensively someone while been accused of something he hasn't done on purpose....like abandoning Cal Damn! The very first moment he saw her on the bike he could've told her "I DIDN'T KNOW you were alive, I thought you had died in the explosion..." Ah, about the Reiji's feelings towards Cal, I think it's just brother-like, not lovers related. Is it only my impression, or Cal's body seemed to have evolved much more than it should in only 2 years? |
KoujirouSep 9, 2009 7:53 AM
Die goldenen Zeiten sind lange vorbei.   |
| So Cal killed Lizzie? What a bitch :/ |
 |
| hmmm...not much to say. I think however, some people are overanalyzing a bit.. |
| No man fails if he does his best - Orison Swett Marden |
RealityEX said: hmmm...not much to say. I think however, some people are overanalyzing a bit.. ^This, it happens alot with this anime |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
| idk why, but all this stuff that's going on with Cal kinda made me lose interest, at least in comparison to the early episodes of the series. |
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| Cal.. 3 episodes left.. I think it will be one of the Chapter 3 endings from the visual novel but since I am only midway in the visual novel, I don't have the slightest clue as to how it will end.. |
 |
| Argh they killed the best side chara of this show Scythe annoys me more and more with his I got the masterplan attitude. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Fabienne said: He's the greatest : D Without him, this show would most likely be quite boring and even more predictable than it already is : p Anyway he makes this show work out : )Scythe annoys me more and more with his I got the masterplan attitude. |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
Oosran said: Fabienne said: He's the greatest : D Without him, this show would most likely be quite boring and even more predictable than it already is : p Anyway he makes this show work out : )Scythe annoys me more and more with his I got the masterplan attitude. No he's just boring when he knows everything from the start I hope he dies in the cruelest possible way XD |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Fabienne said: No, he should survive : DOosran said: No he's just boring when he knows everything from the startFabienne said: He's the greatest : D Without him, this show would most likely be quite boring and even more predictable than it already is : p Anyway he makes this show work out : )Scythe annoys me more and more with his I got the masterplan attitude. I hope he dies in the cruelest possible way XD No seriously, I think he's great : o I don't see why people don't like him : ( |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
Oosran said: Fabienne said: No, he should survive : DOosran said: No he's just boring when he knows everything from the startFabienne said: He's the greatest : D Without him, this show would most likely be quite boring and even more predictable than it already is : p Anyway he makes this show work out : )Scythe annoys me more and more with his I got the masterplan attitude. I hope he dies in the cruelest possible way XD No seriously, I think he's great : o I don't see why people don't like him : ( no problem at least he has one fan ; ) |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Fabienne said: Oosran said: Fabienne said: No, he should survive : DOosran said: No he's just boring when he knows everything from the startFabienne said: He's the greatest : D Without him, this show would most likely be quite boring and even more predictable than it already is : p Anyway he makes this show work out : )Scythe annoys me more and more with his I got the masterplan attitude. I hope he dies in the cruelest possible way XD No seriously, I think he's great : o I don't see why people don't like him : ( no problem at least he has one fan ; ) Scythe-fans, raise your voices! ....*silence* >.< |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
| So lizzy is dead. And i just noticed that Mr. Shiga sounds like Yukimura from Sengoku Basara. haha. i love him. Cal is pissing me off. |
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why does she have the be the enemy Because it is more interesting that way? Tough it is a shame the anime failed to give her the villainous feeling she had in the game... man, she really made me shiver whenever she appeared there. |
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