Schwarznight said: Zanfroni said: I haven't watched any of the anime you cited as an example but I've seen plenty of great female characters, and I'm pretty sure your choices are good as well. The more I read this thread, the more I realize OP is only targeting Naruto and Attack on Titan (especially Attack on Titan) about this topic and is creating an imaginary problem than providing actual solutions. The reason I abandoned this thread is because OP is mostly projecting and name calling Isayama because he didn't like the way two characters were written. This is not constructive at all, it's toxic. There's no point in discussing. The reason why you left and then returned to answer this person is because you are lazy to read through the points. Naruto and AoT were just examples. The point of the thread was to invite views and to be challenged, not for me to list every anime with garbage females. I then listed some great females after you became butthurt that I didn't list any as per another user's request. Cya. We don't need lazy snowflakes here. It's hilarious how you bring up these points when you're doing the exact opposite. It's also funny that you're calling me lazy because I'm doing stuff that's more productive and healthy in my life than give attention to crybabies like you. The only snowflake in this thread is you, but I guess you don't have enough self-awareness to realize that. |
| "No one hates anime more than the anime community, which is composed of some of the most spoiled, immature, pessimist and ungrateful people on Earth." -Anonymous anime watcher |
TinaTunaTina said: It's a fairly natural conclusion to assume there's insinuations of sexism when someone uses "sexualized" negatively, as this is a fairly common feminist viewpoint . You could argue that there's an inverse relationship between a developed character and fanservice, but it's not any kind of absolute. You're free to view fanservice negatively, but criticizing "sexualized" characters can be equated to "objectification". Granted, even anime fans aren't immune to not seeing the hypocrisy of said arguments, as it is an unfortunately accepted viewpoint. LostSpectre said: what? I'm so confused on what your trying to say. It's like your putting words in my mouth. I was talking about Revy, the main lead from Black Lagoon, not a real woman. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about real women. I'm not saying fanservice is a bad thing, but ruins the characters and show for me. Say for an example: a girl is talking about abuse and it pans over her tits and ass, like how am I supposed to take that seriously. It's just not for me, idc if others watch it and love it, but personally I just want to see more females that are not sexualized and have good development, that's all.Did you forget we're discussing a fictional character? There's no difference between her "knowing she's sexy and taking pride in it" versus the type of fanservice you're criticizing. She's an "object" whether she is depicted as having agency or she exists for the gratification of male viewers. When you speak of "sexualization" in a negative context, you can only be applying this viewpoint to real women, because a fictional character obviously wouldn't need your pity. The implication that women should be offended if a character is sexualized is undoubtedly sex-negative and condescending, and validates female sexual inferiority. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
ZakRaz99 said: The measure of whether a character is taken seriously is if there isn't porn of them on the internet? LOLThink about how female characters are treated by the community. No matter what you write, hentai artists will always draw. You could write a female Johan and people would still be like iS sHe a WaIfU tHo. I fyou want the character to be taken seriously, it kinda just has to be a guy, but stronger female characters would be cool |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
LostSpectre said: ZakRaz99 said: The measure of whether a character is taken seriously is if there isn't porn of them on the internet? LOLThink about how female characters are treated by the community. No matter what you write, hentai artists will always draw. You could write a female Johan and people would still be like iS sHe a WaIfU tHo. I fyou want the character to be taken seriously, it kinda just has to be a guy, but stronger female characters would be cool If that were the case then nothing is taken seriously. Rule 34 is a thing for a reason. |
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| But that doesn't mean that's not realistic, right? |
| I dunno, why don't you ask shounen mangakas. |
I can't tell if this is a troll or not, given how insane this sentence is. |
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ZakRaz99 said: I would argue that their character writing plays a direct role in their appeal as "waifu" and that this is a natural conclusion of the types of shows these are. Since you mentioned Johan, we aren't talking about characters like Nina, these are different shows and different styles, "good" writing isn't limited to a purely literary approach, it's about how well the characters complement the story. LostSpectre said: What I mean is that lots of people ignore good writing because the character is a waifu. Like Zero Two and Rem are pretty decent characters but whenever they come up in conversation it's never talking about writing, at least with my experienceThe measure of whether a character is taken seriously is if there isn't porn of them on the internet? LOL |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| [Constellation humantwig, just accepts it for what it is] Well imo the best Female cast is from Omniscient Reader since not just the male characters are written well, but every character is written well though it's not a manga so idk... edit, it's not Shounen so that invalidates it I guess |
  『ᴅᴇᴍᴏɴ-ʟɪᴋᴇ ᴊᴜᴅɢᴇ ᴏꜰ ꜰɪʀᴇ』 Then her jaw slackened as she muttered out. [I... am the bi◼️?] ☽ † ☾ - ᴅᴇʟɪᴠᴇʀɪᴇꜱ- ꜱɪɢ ᴍᴀᴅᴇ ʙʏ ʜᴜᴍᴀɴᴛᴡɪɢ |
| because people dont know how to write female characters I mean look at shojo, its made for girls but a lot of the F characters are all shit |
| It's probably the genre's thing. Shounens, as their name suggests, are dedicated for teenage boys. That's why the biggest focus goes to teenage male characters, while teenage female character are treated with less care. It results in quite alright characters from the former group, and generic, even dull, characters from the latter group. |
Schwarznight said: kizumi91 said: That's why it's called Shounen. If you want some badass female characters, try watching Shoujo instead That's flawed logic, but whatever... No reason for women to be that weak and pathetic, tbh. It's fiction. You can make them stronger and more complex if you want. Instead, they are just sexualised and used for fanservice...or in secondary roles. That is the truth, if you make all female badass, sales will tumble and shonen industry will collapse. There is small demand for such badass female in Japan. Boys can associate only with badass boys and not with badass female. There maybe minute exceptions but majority is not like that. |
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| i think its possible to have deep male & female characters in both Shounen & Shoujo.. |
nightjasmineApr 9, 2022 9:54 PM
| Hinata from Naruto has decent character development. Noelle + most of the girls from Black clover have decent development. Plus, many more batle shonen have decent female characters. The hell you on about? |
 Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
| ik there's one of the popular shounen's mangaka who straight up said he can't write females (was it kishimoto? i can't remember). that and it seems like in many shounen there is an underlying goal to "make the mc look cool/powerful/good", see how many of them start with a premise of "here is average dude-san. average dude-san is a high schooler just trying to live life, until he discovers he has POWERS!!! follow the adventures of average dude-san as he must now save the world." so in order to make their average mc interesting, an easy way to show they are cool is to save a pretty lady or help her out. same with harem mcs (which a lot fall into the shounen category), even when they are boring you are meant to be convinced this guy is actually interesting because clearly he is pulling hot babes so there has to be SOME reason they all want him right? i'm not saying this is accurate because some shows don't successfully convince you and fail at trying to show you that but that is the intended response usually. |
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kronopy said: you kind of contradict yourself here. you were talking about characters being written well then say if a female is kicking ass she's just a "man in a dress"....so in itself you are limiting greatly what constitutes a female character being written well. her personality and layers and development can be variable and unique but only to a certain degree because they all must lead to the endings of them being housewives, or the tag-along girlfriend to the strong hero, or she has a role in battle that is simple healer or magic but not much offense because that is for the guys. there's only so many ways you can tell that story and have it make sense or not become a repeat of another story. some females are not "men in dresses" and kick ass and some in canon get reduced to those things at the end and it makes no sense. a female character doesn't have to kick ass to be good but she shouldn't not be able to either?And that's the problem here. You look at what a good character is, by how powerful the character is, and how much it kicks ass. But a good character means personality, layers, and character development, not a level of strength. If you write your female characters who kick ass, all you get is men in dresses, nothing more. |
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| Because they're in shounenshit manga/anime. |
ZakRaz99 said: JaniSIr said: Nah but think about it, a lot of characters just get completely ignored for their writting because they're a waifu. Like Rem or Zero TwoIf that were the case then nothing is taken seriously. Rule 34 is a thing for a reason. I mean, Zero Two at least had a personality for half an anime. On the other hand I really do not understand why people like Re:Zero, I ended up hating everyone in that anime. |
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| I won't agree with you on that one, I don't think they are garbage |
Kdog1998 said: Correct. It's extremely shallow to imply that female characters can only be valued in masculine roles. Not to mention that there's always tons of female fighters in shonen, they just want to whine about sexism if the female characters don't have just as prominent a role in fighting when it comes to power scaling.Yeah you couldn't have said it any better really lol, and it is just strange because it is like you said a female character in a battle shonen series is only considered good if she is as strong as the men. Which I can understand why some people may want this, but I find this to be kind of shallow in my opinion because there is more than one way to contribute like with Sakura and and Tsunade being amazing healers as well fighters too. Bulma from Dragon Ball I mean did not fight herself, but there is no way you can just ignore her contribution to the series lol. Also, the problem with this whole narrative is that it only focuses on main heroines or females with major roles in their own series, and I can understand why because their status in the series. However, throughout many battle shonen series I would say there many good female characters that just do not make as many appearances. I would tell you that Konan, Rin, Mei, and Shizune are all good female characters from Naruto in my opinion but they just do not appear as much as Sakura and Hinata. In my opinion many battle shonen fans believe that there is only one way for a female character to be good if they are doing that same thing as the men which I just do not understand lol and I really think this is an extremely narrow way of viewing characters lol. Sorry for the rant I had to get that one out, I don't blame you if you do not read this whole thing lol. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
chinesecartoonz said: Bruh. They're talking directly to the OP. You mistook that for saying "female characters who kick ass are just men in dresses".kronopy said: you kind of contradict yourself here. you were talking about characters being written well then say if a female is kicking ass she's just a "man in a dress"....so in itself you are limiting greatly what constitutes a female character being written well. her personality and layers and development can be variable and unique but only to a certain degree because they all must lead to the endings of them being housewives, or the tag-along girlfriend to the strong hero, or she has a role in battle that is simple healer or magic but not much offense because that is for the guys. there's only so many ways you can tell that story and have it make sense or not become a repeat of another story. some females are not "men in dresses" and kick ass and some in canon get reduced to those things at the end and it makes no sense. a female character doesn't have to kick ass to be good but she shouldn't not be able to either?And that's the problem here. You look at what a good character is, by how powerful the character is, and how much it kicks ass. But a good character means personality, layers, and character development, not a level of strength. If you write your female characters who kick ass, all you get is men in dresses, nothing more. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Kdog1998 said: You're not wrong, it's a very common feminist viewpoint to undermine female-centric qualities. This isn't the entire picture, but it absolutely plays a vital role. It's almost fascinating how much feminism is anti-female, in the most natural sense of the word, but women gain a lot of power back from sympathy derived through victimhood, and of course the scapegoat in this equation is men. Anyway, that's where a lot of these unfounded complaints about female characters come from. It really is crazy that they claim it to be sexist if a female character is not doing the same things as men, but in a way they are being sexist themselves as they claim that only female characters who in that mold can be considered good. This train of thought essentially narrows them down to this one archetype and tell if I am wrong is that not exactly what they are complaining about when they claim female characters are only damsels in distress or healers lol. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Schwarznight said: 01Sharjeel said: >implying male characters are any better. it's all the fckn same. male characters, female, side ones. all of them. you have to turn your brain off in order to enjoy shonen anime / manga. There should be a public humiliation day for every shonen fan out there Isn't Assassination Classroom in your favourites? Isn't it shounen? We should publicly humiliate you in that case based on your own words. Note, the comparison was mainly about the best male side characters being be better than the best female side characters. nah the reason why y'all prefer male characters than female is simply because Anime fans are fckn fargots and there's no two ways about. Best boy this, best boy that, love for traps, every male character suddenly becomes best girl and a female character is labeled as a bitch for even the slightest of offends. As for Assassination Classroom, we can make an argument about a lot of shows that have shonen in their tags but when we talk about shonen, people usually refer to the Naruto or one piece kind of bs shows. |
ZakRaz99 said: JaniSIr said: I like re:zero and Rem's great. I fyou watch a recap video on Youtube you'll understand how well written it is but I can see why you wouldn't like it. I mean, Zero Two at least had a personality for half an anime. On the other hand I really do not understand why people like Re:Zero, I ended up hating everyone in that anime. I have a very long list of reasons why I consider Re:Zero to be horrible, a youtube video won't change that. It's the one anime that thought me that popular opinion doesn't matter, and I need to drop shows early. |
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| I guess we are talking battle/action type shounen? Depends on the show I suppose. Something like Bleach and Naruto treat their females like crap sure. The big name shows like that often push female characters aside but you can find "strong" women if you want to find them. The OP mentioned Claymore and I'd add Black Lagoon certainly, Revy is badass. OP might not liker her but I like Mikasa in AoT as well as Annie and Hange. Gabi is annoying but her arc is certainly present and has a strong personality of her own. Its early in the anime but Nobara in Jujutsu Kaisen has big potential. Certainly when compared to garbage Sakura. Not a hard bar to go over though ha. Character growth lacking? Thing is lots of these shows don't exactly have lots of character growth to begin with for anyone really, watch shows like DBZ and its mainly about the action not the characters growing as people. Its a simplistic genre often. Pew pew, pow pow is what is focused on. Might need to look past the giant franchises perhaps. Or look into shows into the seinen category? Line between the two is a bit blurry to me. |
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| I don't like it when people chalk it up to: A) The author is male, so they don't know how to write women People are human before they are a particular gender. Obviously there are things like culture, race, and gender that make them different from one another, but we're not aliens to one another; we're fundamentally very similar at our core. My point, of course, isn't that just because we're similar, anyone can write any other race, age, gender, nationality, whatever, because they can't. They have to make an effort to learn and understand the people they're trying to write first, if they want well-written, authentic characters. It's a barrier that can be overcome, and is all the time, by competent authors. My point is basically that if a male writer can't write female characters, it's not because they're men, it's because they're too lazy to learn about things so that they can Write What They Know. It's on them, not their gender. B) The male characters are the focus, so there doesn't need to be good writing for the females In a literal sense this is true, but kind of misses the point IMO. Having good female characters doesn't detract from having good male ones. Like, if a show has a cast where it's main characters are 5 men, then sure, you can expect the women won't be as developed. But if a show has female characters as part of the main line-up, that reasoning is kind of shallow. Why include them there at all, if you're not going to do anything with them? Why do they get main character roles if they have the development/relevance of side characters? Well, there are a lot of answers to that, like token representation, paying lip service to the idea of a "strong female character", genuinely not knowing what to do with them, having "eye candy", needing a love interest for the hero, sexism. But it boils down not to "female characters aren't the focus", but rather, "female characters are part of the focus, but only in the precise way we've prescribed, and only in a way where we have to put in the bare minimum effort". Sticking to overworn tropes because it's what's easiest. C) If you write your female characters to be badasses, it's no different from writing men/they're just men in skirts. The fact that people think this honestly says more about the quality of the average male character more than anything else, but anyways, there's no reason at all a character can't be badass, well-written, and feminine at the same time. People complain about Mikasa (full disclosure, I have not watched AoT) because in their opinion, she meets the criteria of being strong but not well-written. It's disingenuous to say anyone only wants badass female characters, and not ones that have all three traits. Meaning in other words, if an author really would write a badass male and a badass female the same way, it's probably because they're not good at writing and differentiating characters beyond the simplistic trait of "badass", and not because this is an inherent problem with writing strong female characters. Honestly, this sentiment is more suitable as an attack against authors rather than a defense, because it's a pretty good criticism of the "she is powerful, therefore she's a great character" line of thought that seems to be prevalent among some of them. I don't know where I was going with this, but basically, female characters sucking is the fault of incompetent authors, it's not some sort of problem that can't be overcome or something inherent to a given genre. |
MoltenLemonMetaApr 10, 2022 1:54 PM
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ZakRaz99 said: JaniSIr said: why is it horrible? I cant think of a a reason any season should be lower than a sixI have a very long list of reasons why I consider Re:Zero to be horrible, a youtube video won't change that. It's the one anime that thought me that popular opinion doesn't matter, and I need to drop shows early. Well, the biggest issue, is that it's repetitive. The time loop gimmick is repetitive inherently, but then it's also looping the time loops with a very rigid formula. 1. Subaru gets a lucky run through most of the checkpoint and dies at the end. 2. He face plants into all possible stupid ways of dying. 3. Crying episode. 4. Checkpoint gets resolves. Until the crying episode is over, the plot isn't going to move anywhere, so basically there is no point in watching beyond the first checkpoint. I also don't like any of the characters. Okay, Echidna is cool. She is like the only character that has any knowledge of the world. Everyone else is like an NPC who sends you on a fetch quest, not knowing that you are trying to save the world from destruction. And that's just in general on top of all the individual issues I'm not going into. Plus the characters are over the top with their emotional display, can't take it seriously. And then season 2 started doing a ridiculous amount of flashbacks, that's when I had enough, but apparently it goes on till the end of the season... Though I guess, they can't slow down a plot, that was already standing still for 12 episodes, beyond some tea parties with the only likeable character in the series. |
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