| Doesn't even matter, because nobody in Japan is even listening. |
| Gate-keepers are the worst people in the fandom. They're people who think that 'liking anime' is enough to not only constitute an identity in the absence of any actual personality, accomplishments or skills, it's enough to grant them authority on what anime and the fandom needs to be. They're insecure, angry losers, and no one should take them seriously. Not only is trying to stop interested people from getting into anime a general dick move, it hurts the anime industry as much as it hurts the community. Fewer anime fans = fewer people putting money into seeing anime = less profit for those making anime = less reason to make anime. I'm not exactly a fan of putting art in economic terms like that, but its truth that gate-keepers are ultimately hurting the industry that makes the thing they like in the first place. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
| Please don't. Sharing is caring. The more people I can talk about anime the better. Besides, that 'keeping SJWs out' assumes that left-leaning anime fans don't exist, which is just plain incorrect. At least in the MAL polls the division between left and right has been pretty much 50/50. |
NthDegreeOct 3, 2019 9:46 AM
tuckfrump4228 said: Doesn't even matter, because nobody in Japan is even listening. Mmm, let's not get ahead of ourselves. If nobody in Japan recognized the Western anime market, Cowboy Bebop and Big O wouldn't both be written with Western audiences specifically in mind. The shitty, toxic, gate-keeping aspects of the anime community do, I think, somewhat reduce anime's mainstream appeal, but that's to a very limited extent, and anime is less niche every day. I'm pretty sure I see 3-5 people wearing DBZ and HeroAca shirts in public every day at work. Bottom line: if anime studios believe they can make money by making things Western audiences like, they will make those things. Doesn't mean it's all they'll make, but I don't see much profit to pretending anime industries ignore the western market. Also, I like your username. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
thewiru said: Then, what you're "noticing" is not that it's a girl, but it's a person who doesn't fit in the group. So the problem is not the gender.Also, it isn't about girls per se: Girls were always welcome as long as acted like everyone else in the fanbase, i had lot's of talks with girls were i just noticed they were girls when i wnet to read their names. Yet, when it's a girl that doesn't wanna abide with the culture, i notice it is a girls just by the way she writes. Also, it's not about "abiding" by some set of rules. There's no fixed set of rules. It's just a matter of fitting in socially, that's all. thewiru said: "Weeb culture" of any sort did not exist until at most a few decades ago, so evolutionary psychology has jack-all to do with this. And like @HeruruMeruru mentioned, a huge number of girls and women are already anime fans.By reasons of evolutionary psychology, women are less prone to end up in cultures like the weeb culture. If your idea of "gatekeeping" is basically to put up a sign that says "you're welcome to join us; just don't make an ass of yourself", then yes, I agree. On the other hand, if your idea of "gatekeeping" is to tell everyone in the group "hey, be suspicious of those new people, because we don't know them and therefore they might be up to no good screwing over what we like", then no, I don't agree. lol @ username Russian_bot said: Maybe it was for you, and if so, you're lucky, but for me, the anime fandom has itself been that group of people who don't understand my anime hobby.Now imagine your hobby was getting infested by people you hate. This is how the the anime community feels like right now. It used to be a place filled with people that were just like you. It was comfy. Russian_bot said: The fandom loves to meme things to hell and back, they can't take anything seriously, they're overly critical and encourage people to be very judgemental very quickly, they run on hype then complain when stuff disappoints them, they lack an appreciation for things like the wistful and heartfelt moments in anime, they care too much about plot and too little about atmosphere, they prioritize novelty over polish, they overload themselves with anime and burn themselves out then blame the volume or genre fads of anime, they only pay attention to newer and super-famous series and almost totally neglect a bunch of quite nice older things, they're overly concerned with fanservice and sex appeal and various slapstick gags, and so on and so forth.Normal people love to destroy things weird or "nerdy" people enjoy. They did it with the Internet, with comics, with gaming and now they're trying to do it with anime. I can go on all day. Meanwhile, I don't see how normal people "destroyed" the internet. Or gaming. (I don't read comics so I won't comment on that.) If anything, it's shitty memers these days trying to stoke their own flames of resentment by trying to make the internet a repository for their edgy crap and see what they can get away with. We had more wholesome memes back in the day like basically all of YTMND. And gaming's been better than ever, now with lower overhead costs for game development and distribution and also a revival of appreciation of a vast array of older games, rather than the late 90s and 00s when people only cared about the hot new stuff and scoffed at stuff like 2D pixel-art platformers. I don't see how normal people are "trying to destroy" anime either. If anything, I see more people wearing anime shirts at the mall these days, compared to just fifteen or twenty years ago. Anime isn't getting "destroyed" -- it's getting more popular. Russian_bot said: Dafuq's wrong with Overwatch? Seems like a pretty nice game, and I might even have gotten it if I weren't such a cheapskate and had a better PC. I've got friends who are really into this.How do they destroy it? They destroy it with their attitude. They think a medium has to change because of them and sometimes it even works and producers start pandering towards them and you'll end up getting stuff like overwatch. Russian_bot said: 1. Strawman, ignoring the fact that "normal people" are individuals with a wide range of opinions.Normal people are not real fans of anime They only like the idea of anime. The idea of a 2D animated medium aimed towards adults. They hate fanservice, how women are potrayed and all the other "problematic" tropes. They have no respect for the culture around anime and wouldn't mind if it didn't exist. They want anime to adapt towards their left-liberal views. They want every anime to be like steven universe in terms of the zeitgeist. 2. You might not have noticed but anime fans often are "normal people" themselves too, since they don't broadcast their love of anime all day every day. 3. Needlessly bringing politics into this. 4. Self-contradictory. If they "want every anime to be like steven universe" then they wouldn't have turned to anime in the first place. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
rommelcedric said: Agreed.Moreover, more people loving anime means being an otaku/nerd/weeb becomes more accepted. I don't know about you, but I personally love being able to talk about my favorite anime shows and manga series with more people, rather than just the handful of friends that related that kind of stuff while I was growing up. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in that. rommelcedric said: This.Instead of bashing newcomers and mainstream fans, how about we welcome them? Show the shows that we love and why we love them. Anime is an art form. And art isn't meant to be hidden away and owned by any one group of people. It's meant to be shared. For those of you who're worried about "weeb culture" or whatever, you do realize that attempts to push away new people are exactly what causes them to think of you as weird in a bad way, right? You want them to understand you, give them a chance to walk in your shoes. They're humans too, just like you. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey Then, what you're "noticing" is not that it's a girl, but it's a person who doesn't fit in the group. So the problem is not the gender. Yes, that's literally what i've said. a huge number of girls and women are already anime fans. Which i never denied |
Heavy words coming from somebody who's explicitly told me about their desire to outright mitigate the presence of people in this community who merely enjoy forms of fanservice they find discomforting. I guess it can't be gatekeeping if they've already made it through the gate, so what should we call it? Culling? Purging, maybe? Either way, the "keep people that I don't want in out" mentality is the same level of bullshit, and people like you should most definitely be lumped in with the gatekeepers. I don't have a fucking clue who you think you are to take such a hard anti-gatekeeping stance whenever that's held in tandem with some of the other incredibly intolerant and exclusionary viewpoints you possess towards other fans. You are absolutely no better than any gatekeeper. |
ManabanOct 3, 2019 2:00 PM
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| The same I feel about any sort of gatekeeping, not very favourable. As long as you're okay with how things roll here, you're welcome. That means no coercing the creators to acommodate your demands which deprives others of their entertainment. Voting with your wallet is more democratic, wouldn't you agree? |
AuronOct 3, 2019 2:55 PM
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| Some gatekeeping is needed, but not too much. Normies aren't a threat to anime, it's only bad business practices/models in Japan and NPCs that are a threat to anime. |
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| It depends on what you define as gatekeeping. Many people who complain about it also gatekeep themselves by shaming or personally attacking things in a subculture they don't like as they come into it. You don't have to like everything about the community or medium I don't myself but there is a line that a lot of people cross where it very much gets to you like this therefore I hate you personally and wish you weren't part of the fandom. At the end of the day just be respectful and you will get respect that simple. This whole thing is about people fighting over fanservice's inclusion in anime due to NSFW art of Kimetsu no Yaiba and Fire Force anyway. People can dislike those elements and still be fans but if you go out of your way to harass people who make that art or people who enjoy those kinds of shows you in effect are gatekeeping and don't be surprised if people don't want you in the medium as you go out of the way to make them feel unwelcome as well despite many of them being long term fans. Critique and say you don't like it but be respectful and vice versa or your going to get some backlash. |
BilboBaggins365Oct 3, 2019 7:14 PM
TolkienFan365 said: This whole thing is about people fighting over fanservice's inclusion in anime due to NSFW art of Kimetsu no Yaiba and Fire Force anyway. People can dislike those elements and still be fans but if you go out of your way to harass people who make that art or people who enjoy those kinds of shows you in effect are gatekeeping and don't be surprised if people don't want you in the medium as you go out of the way to make them feel unwelcome as well despite many of them being long term fans. don't mind me, just quoting for added emphasis to this part, think of it as a +1 it's not new with fire force or yaiba, mind you, this discussion and same-y behaviors have existed beforehand, but overall ye |
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Manaban said: Heavy words coming from somebody who's explicitly told me about their desire to outright mitigate the presence of people in this community who merely enjoy forms of fanservice they find discomforting. I guess it can't be gatekeeping if they've already made it through the gate, so what should we call it? Culling? Purging, maybe? Either way, the "keep people that I don't want in out" mentality is the same level of bullshit, and people like you should most definitely be lumped in with the gatekeepers. I don't have a fucking clue who you think you are to take such a hard anti-gatekeeping stance whenever that's held in tandem with some of the other incredibly intolerant and exclusionary viewpoints you possess towards other fans. You are absolutely no better than any gatekeeper. I'm sorry, who the fuck are you again? |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
InkSpider said: Manaban said: Heavy words coming from somebody who's explicitly told me about their desire to outright mitigate the presence of people in this community who merely enjoy forms of fanservice they find discomforting. I guess it can't be gatekeeping if they've already made it through the gate, so what should we call it? Culling? Purging, maybe? Either way, the "keep people that I don't want in out" mentality is the same level of bullshit, and people like you should most definitely be lumped in with the gatekeepers. I don't have a fucking clue who you think you are to take such a hard anti-gatekeeping stance whenever that's held in tandem with some of the other incredibly intolerant and exclusionary viewpoints you possess towards other fans. You are absolutely no better than any gatekeeper. I'm sorry, who the fuck are you again? I am the God of Abraham your father. Genesis 26:24 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Genesis 31:13 I am God (El), the God (Elohim) of your father … Genesis 46:3 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'” Exodus 3:14 I will bring you into the land that I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and to Jacob. I will give it to you for a possession, I am the LORD … Exodus 6:8, with “I am the LORD” I am the LORD your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. Isaiah 49:26 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. John 6:35 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. … I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. John 10:9, 11 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live. John 11:25 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” John 15:1-2 ----- And, as the alpha and the omega, the arbiter of all that is righteous and holy, I shall smite both thee and thy wretched attempts at posturing at being anything other than a narrow-minded craven. |
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Manaban said: I am the God of Abraham your father. Genesis 26:24 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Genesis 31:13 I am God (El), the God (Elohim) of your father … Genesis 46:3 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'” Exodus 3:14 I will bring you into the land that I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and to Jacob. I will give it to you for a possession, I am the LORD … Exodus 6:8, with “I am the LORD” I am the LORD your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. Isaiah 49:26 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. John 6:35 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. … I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. John 10:9, 11 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live. John 11:25 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” John 15:1-2 ----- And, as the alpha and the omega, the arbiter of all that is righteous and holy, I shall smite both thee and thy wretched attempts at posturing at being anything other than a narrow-minded craven. You're creepy. Maybe you should go look for a boyfriend instead of stalking me on the internet? I'm sure he'd be interested in your cult. I'mma block you now. Bye. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
InkSpider said: You're creepy. Maybe you should go look for a boyfriend instead of stalking me on the internet? I'm sure he'd be interested in your cult. I'mma block you now. Bye. I mean, by all means, go ahead. I don't really want to talk to *you*, per se, and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just want to make it known that you've advocated disgusting forms of gatekeeping when we've argued months back about people who like fanservice you don't consider consensual enough, and, yes, I very much do remember that. You don't deserve to go championing an anti-gatekeeping stance like that with some of the other stances I know you express. Nobody should read your hypocritical trite and think it has any value or sincerity to it. You're just as eager to drive out people who you don't want here and don't fit in with your pre-determined viewpoints and stances on particular topics as much as the people you're trying to decry, and I've been made very well aware of that by nobody other than yourself. It's people like you that make some forms of gatekeeping a necessity. No point in tolerating intolerance. Also, if remembering a conversation we had constitutes stalking to you, then you are either just childishly trying to toss as much shit as you can at me on your way out of this thread, or you're just completely socially inexperienced. |
ManabanOct 3, 2019 11:20 PM
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HeruruMeruru said: Maneki-Mew said: Gatekeeping is always a shit. I'm actually glad that anime became mainstream, because sorry, that's the way it is: a ridiculous high number of otakus are just misogynist incels and alt-rights and I'm glad about everyone else, who isn't like that. It's always funny and ironic how anime fans leave online this impression and in reality, many of them are a bunch of absolutely normal people. Since these people never speak up online, people get the impression that all anime fans are like that. The number of these guys is still ridiculously high, same with gamers and they can complain about that whatever they want, anime will become more and more mainstream anyway and with that, there came decent people in. Also I'm glad when I can try to show people something they might enjoy. The worst part about it from my experiences is that the whole alt-right incel thing in the anime fandom is a pretty recent phenomenon. Ten or fifteen years ago the weeaboo stereotype was more "excitable yaoi fangirl", and I kind of wish we could go back to those times. I wasn't surprised with what happened to gaming because the whole "gamer" community was always really toxic and hostile towards women, but with anime this reactionary movement just sort of came out of nowhere. A lot of people blame moe for this change in demographic, but there are a few of those reactionary types that outright don't even know or care about anything anime but are trying to make anime into their next scapegoat for their culture wars, not knowing that anime is known for already having a lot of women and LGBT folk in both the fandom and the industry to begin with, much moreso than gaming or western comics. Why and how though? The first big controversies regarding moe were fed by fans of male power fantasies saying that this trend was killing anime. If anything it was originally disregarded and mocked for indulging in themes and aesthetics that male fans didn't like. I don't think this trend of alt-right/reactionary movement comes out of nowhere in anime. It's always been ingrained in the stereotype of the socially awkward nerd and it has been even fed by popular culture more than a few times. I think the main instigator for this increase is the existence of social networks on the internet where these people can find a cesspool of similar anons and slowly build an organized cult that attracts other people in the fandom. |
jal90Oct 4, 2019 1:50 AM
HeruruMeruru said: The worst part about it from my experiences is that the whole alt-right incel thing in the anime fandom is a pretty recent phenomenon. Iunno, considering how loosely the term tends to be applied? I'm not especially surprised it's turned out that way. It hasn't even been a full day since I've had to put up with shit about it due to just liking fucking ecchi. I view it as a pejorative on par with cuck these days and little better. Display none of the tendencies, don't associate with them, don't even fucking like them and openly, but guess what? Step slightly out of line and you're still being treated as one. It's disgusting to me. And yeah, if labels are getting tossed around so haphazardly, it's kind of easy for people's impressions of the fandom and how people around them view the world can tend to become warped. And when you go around viewing things and spreading that view of things, then maybe the problem becomes more overstated than it's even capable of upholding in the first place. HeruruMeruru said: A lot of people blame moe for this change in demographic Anyone who does this is retarded since moe's not a new thing in the slightest, and it's been around for longer than 10 or 15 years. HeruruMeruru said: If anything, the reactionaries are the ones that need to be gatekept out. I'm for gatekeeping gatekeepers in a general level, but it comes with the caveat of understanding that not every gatekeeper is the image we're creating and projecting of the alt-right incel who wants to keep normies or women out or whatever. Because for fuck's sake, I am tired of dealing with unwarranted bullshit from paranoid fucks who are so concerned with their witch hunt for their enemy that they don't give a fuck about the collateral damage they cause. And when shit's that twisted, that's more or less when a fight stops being worth voicing support for in my book and instead should be viewed with distrust and apprehension. |
ManabanOct 4, 2019 1:53 AM
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HeruruMeruru said: I actually agree with you that I don't think things like ecchi or moe is a direct cause of someone showing extremist beliefs, and simply liking those things sure as hell doesn't make you a bad person. Otherwise I would be a bad person too since I'm a pretty big Neptunia fan, haha. As you said, it's been around for nearly twenty years and people like that were nowhere to be found back then. My theory is that they're just looking for a new scapegoat and decided anime would be it. I've even heard people admit as much. *shrug* Nice. Thank you. It would be nice if more people on this site thought like this, and caught on to something so fucking simple instead of creating a situation where it feels like just for liking something like this, you're being put out in no man's land between two sides that don't seem to realize how disgusting they can be. On the topic of gatekeeping, I'd really like to gatekeep a lot of people who are too heavily involved in this stupid culture war sometimes. The unnecessary and unjustified shit innocent people have to deal with because of them and their paranoid accusations makes me want them to take their stupid sociopolitical spats the fuck away from everyone else and stop dragging people into it against our fucking will. I tried to ignore it, I tried to tolerate it, but the more it's grown the more these fucking miscreants make just existing a fucking problem for me. And I do very well grasp I am within good fucking reason to be pissed about it by this point. |
ManabanOct 4, 2019 2:11 AM
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| Just as long as SJWs don't censor anime I think everything will be fine, tbh |
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HeruruMeruru said: jal90 said: Why and how though? The first big controversies regarding moe were fed by fans of male power fantasies saying that this trend was killing anime. If anything it was originally disregarded and mocked for indulging in themes and aesthetics that male fans didn't like. The most common criticism, which which was made even in the mid-late 2000's when moe was first rising to prominence, is that the concept of extremely demure and infantalized girls is pandering to otaku who believe that women should be seen and not heard, they want their women to be as non-threatening and submissive as possible, that it itself is a "male power fantasy", but the kind at the expense of women. That said, as I said, I don't think the cause and effect is that black and white because even in the early 2000's titles like Di Gi Charat and Snow Fairy Sugar were being licensed, and this sudden influx of reactionaries didn't happen then, and in fact, if anything it was mostly girls that liked these titles. Well, precisely because Di Gi Charat and Snow Fairy Sugar were mostly watched and liked by girls it's not really surprising that they were not criticized, since it was anyway ingrained in popular culture that cutesy and girls as main characters = for girls. Moe in the 00s introduced cutesy aesthetics to a male fandom, and that created a disonance with the previous standards. I'd say most of the early criticism is rooted in that disonance, from those who complained about anime becoming "too girly" to those talking about fetishized and infantilized/subservient characters. |
jal90Oct 4, 2019 2:16 AM
| That is some silly thought. We are speaking of two mediums animation and comics (live action, theater, novels and games too in some cases), I am not content creator in japan nor investor and have no say what demographic marketing niche people should attract to earn some money to get by. If someone decided to write a series that targets house wives and I am not part of that group why would I claim I "own" it or even more stupid thing take it as an personal attack if it doesn't gather to my needs. The more we have different people creating what they want the better. I can understand since animanga has created its own subculture and fandom around it, you get those idk what you'd call them... "nerd fights". Basically how in fandoms there is always that one group that belittle others for some reason they can think of to appear more important and superior. But I am too old for any of that shit and honestly don't feel that I am part of any community to even care enough. @HeruruMeruru Your experiences are quite familiar to my experiences. I have always seen animanga being more popular among girls and women, which was even more clear when going to cons since majority of visitors were young women and teenage girls. Instead compared to American comics and on some level European comics, they were "manlier" and true comics and peak of nerd culture. Animanga was always trashy and lower from other animation and comics that only ones who could enjoy it was those silly teenage girls. Ikemen and yaoi was a red flag to "nerds" and many tropes like flashing panties proved them how much better their preferred comics were. Hell even this year there were few who complained how local con was being hijacked by those "girls who read only manga". Tbh first time I even heard a word animanga in west is mainly male thing was on mal. On that note this was a website where I first read someone's opinion animanga is a conservative and traditional safe heaven compared to those western "propaganda" works. |
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Maneki-Mew said: Gatekeeping is always a shit. I'm actually glad that anime became mainstream, because sorry, that's the way it is: a ridiculous high number of otakus are just misogynist incels and alt-rights and I'm glad about everyone else, who isn't like that. It's always funny and ironic how anime fans leave online this impression and in reality, many of them are a bunch of absolutely normal people. Since these people never speak up online, people get the impression that all anime fans are like that. The number of these guys is still ridiculously high, same with gamers and they can complain about that whatever they want, anime will become more and more mainstream anyway and with that, there came decent people in. Also I'm glad when I can try to show people something they might enjoy. And you know what? I'm always in for good female characters that aren't your typical waifu and gay characters. Both seem to be the end of the world for those people. Of course I am in for it, because I love seeing this and enjoy it more. Another thing of gatekeeping is: Western culture and anime fans alike undermine fandoms for girls and women and almost everything that's liked by girls. If there is a new, good thriller novel, people are like: What a great book! If there is a new, good romance novel written by a woman, people will treat it more likely as guilty pleasure for girls and bored housewives, no matter how good it is. Same with anime, music and everything else. Many girls also take part in it and make themselves looking better by telling everyone they are not like the other girls and like some kind of male-orientated fandoms. I was guilty of that too until I realized that my taste actually is still very feminine. Gatekeeping is always getting on my nerves and it's just a childish way to protect your hobby, since you are not entitled to it. Saying something gets mainstream makes it less toxic is kinda ridiculous. One of the worst geeky hobbies I have been apart of was Star Wars and that is incredibly mainstream (everyone in that community regardless of their opinion sucks). While I am not someone to hate on popular things it's just inventible the bigger a community gets the likeness you attract more toxic people it's that simple. Your just making a really dumb generalization. This whole hastag started because a bunch of people harassed a NSFW artist and put them on blast because they made some fanart for Kimetsu no Yaiba. This isn't a complaint on diversity, well written female characters it's just people not happy that the NSFW side of the community is getting attack by what they view as outsiders. People aren't really entitled to anything correct but those against it also act that way (look at how Horikoshi has been harrassed by his "fanbase"). This whole thing started because a lot of these controversies have started on incredibly popular and mainstream shows which people have rightly or unfairly stigmatized as casuals causing problems in the community. Your not entitled to anything and I would agree. People don't have the right to demand anything all you can do is support the things you enjoy and ignore the stuff you dislike. Plus your comparison of people hating women media I think is kinda humorous because most people despise anything that is seen as a guilty pleasure for guys. I don't get where this is coming from since the community your going after triumphing this has tons of notable female handles pushing the hashtag and those talking about female creators positively. No one in that community is bashing Shojo or the Josei demographic. This isn't some incel or alt right group pushing the hash tag. |
BilboBaggins365Oct 4, 2019 5:21 PM
TolkienFan365 said: Your just making a really dumb generalization. This whole hastag started because a bunch of people harassed a NSFW artist because they made some fanart for Kimetsu no Yaiba. Haven't heard of this, don't even know what the hash tag is, but the OP is mentioning twitter and such when I look back at it What's happening on that front? ._. |
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Manaban said: TolkienFan365 said: Your just making a really dumb generalization. This whole hastag started because a bunch of people harassed a NSFW artist because they made some fanart for Kimetsu no Yaiba. Haven't heard of this, don't even know what the hash tag is, but the OP is mentioning twitter and such when I look back at it What's happening on that front? ._. Someone made a lewd art piece of Nezuko. So people went after the artist for it so people mostly a lot of the anti-censorship anitwitter group went after them (which again some of the most notable ones include LGBT members, women and a variety of races) and countered later starting the hastag. I don't necessarily agree with the hashtag itself because I don't think asking people to respect others in the community is gatekeeping if anything it's a response to people trying to gatekeep. Also people getting frustrated over Fire Force's fanservice was another reason this got brought up but in that case I didn't think there was anything wrong because the original poster just didn't like the use of the fanservice which I think is a fair criticism. That to me was just fans of the show not liking someone mocking a show they liked. I just think it's kind of misrepresenting that some people on this board are painting people upset with others coming in and demanding change in the community as racist white straight guys. The handle I found this out about was from a bisexual Middle Eastern crossdresser who was in support of the hashtag. I am bi myself and I agree with many of their points though not everything. Plus I mean it's not like I am just in love with ecchi anime or that I don't appreciate Shojo or Josei manga and anime or the fact I love many female creators. I have quite a few female creators in my favourites including three titles in Yona of the Dawn, FMA and March Comes in Like A Lion that are in my favourites list. I may not always agree with them but that community is incredibly diverse and it just comes down to not wanting people attacking NSFW artists and leaving creators who use fanservice alone and not shaming or attacking fans for enjoy it. I am just saying some the above posters are bringing up stuff that is completely unrelated to what is going on. It's just a strawman which many of those who did harass the artist created in order to deflect legitimate concerns about the behavior of certain people on twitter and not just to fan artist but to the creators themselves. |
BilboBaggins365Oct 4, 2019 5:42 PM
TolkienFan365 said: Someone made a lewd art piece of Nezuko. So people went after the artist for it so people mostly a lot of the anti-censorship anitwitter group went after them (which again some of the most notable ones include LGBT members, women and a variety of races) countered. Well, I'm not entirely sure about the situation - how did they go after the creator, was it expressing contempt for the art piece or leveraging harassment at the creator themselves for making it, so on and so forth. If it's harassing people for making NSFW fanart they don't approve of, though, then those would be the type of people who I'd say need to be gatekept, yeah. Or I'd definitely advocate throwing them out. TolkienFan365 said: I don't necessarily agree with the hashtag itself because I don't think asking people to respect others in the community is gatekeeping if anything it's a response to people trying to gatekeep. I mean yeah, I'd agree. I don't have the full context - this is the first I'm hearing of this, honestly - but going by what I'm being told then I'd want to take it a step farther. Some shit shouldn't be tolerated, y'know? Harrassment due to making NSFW art is one of them. No point in asking nicely with that, tell them to fuck off. TolkienFan365 said: Also people getting frustrated over Fire Force's fanservice was another reason this got brought up but in that case I didn't think there was anything wrong because the original poster just didn't like the use of the fanservice which I think is a fair criticism. It's a touchy subject because a lot of common criticism really does, implicitly or explicitly, call for outright removing fanservice, and of course those of us who like it are going to take exception to that. I think it's why that whole discourse is a such a shitheap in this community, it feels like there's not really a lot of room for trusting intent but at the same time, remaining silent and letting people who do want it removed is just letting them dominate discussion. So it just turns into misery-inducing trench warfare. Overall, though, disliking it is not an issue and if the only thing the person said was that they disliked it then meh. Not worth giving much mind to imo. TolkienFan365 said: I just think it's kind of misrepresenting that some people on this board are painting people upset with others coming in and demanding change in the community as racist white straight guys. The handle I found this out about was from a bisexual Middle Eastern crossdresser who was in support of the hashtag. I am bi myself and I agree with many of their points though not everything. Plus I mean it's not like I am just in love with ecchi anime or that I don't appreciate Shojo or Josei manga and anime or the fact I love many female creators. That's what it feels like too many people are eager to do. Create an image and try to push this intolerance narrative as far as possible without acknowledging some of the needless bullshit they put others through and the toxic behaviors they not only enable, but outright perpetrate and seem to discourage. There's too much collateral damage and the connections people start making end up coming across as so thin and paranoid that it feels little better than conspiracy or witch hunting. I mean, according to some of these people on this board, liking ecchi openly is enough to get labeled a bunch of shit like incel and alt-right. I'm the source on that, since it's been something I've put up with for months now. It's so brazenly trying to attach a ton of negative connotations to a collective to incite fear in people, but in they never seem willing to acknowledge these issues when they pop up and think that, just maybe, trying to create as much unfair collateral damage as possible might be a bit of a fucking problem >_> TolkienFan365 said: I am just saying some the above posters are bringing up stuff that is completely unrelated to what is going on. It's just a strawman which many of those who did harass the artist created in order to deflect legitimate concerns about the behavior of certain people on twitter and not just to fan artist but to the creators themselves. Yeah I see what you're going for at least I mostly just wanted to know what the whole NSFW art harassment thng you mentioned was because I didn't know this, but from what the OP said it does sound like it could've been at the center of this thread |
ManabanOct 4, 2019 5:47 PM
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HeruruMeruru said: Maybe this whole gatekeeping hashtag isn't an example, but there is no denying that "the anime right" people, the kind with the smug loli avatars, are stinking up the fandom as of late. Look at the whole Vic Mignogna case and how ugly the stans got towards the victims with the doxxing and stalking. Most of these people engaging in the harassment, including the fucking lawyers, even admitted to not even caring about anime but just wanting it to be their next scapegoat. Iunno, though, I don't think we should try to shove blame over to the anime right or whoever and then try to make the entirity of gatekeeping discourse - especially right now - all about them, if what Tolkienfan is saying is true. If people were harassing an artist for drawing a picture they disliked and then that's the big issue currently surrounding the gatekeeping discourse, then by all means, let's focus in on that and try to uncover what's going on there. No need to distract from addressing the problem that's directly in front of us. And based on the info Tolkienfan's given us about this situation, it's easy to kind of interpret the surge of the gatekeeping hashtag as being a response to people who are trying to gatekeep things in their own way, rather than something that can be attributed to the whole normie/SJW gatekeeping thing that people keep bringing up. Which would mean that we're not talking about people trying to shove out SJWs and normies or women or whoever the fuck people are bringing up, we're talking about people trying to gatekeep harassers and gatekeepers. That's an entirely different dynamic that needs to be taken into account before going into hysterics about it. |
ManabanOct 4, 2019 5:59 PM
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HeruruMeruru said: TolkienFan365 said: Someone made a lewd art piece of Nezuko. So people went after the artist for it so people mostly a lot of the anti-censorship anitwitter group went after them (which again some of the most notable ones include LGBT members, women and a variety of races) and countered later starting the hastag. I don't necessarily agree with the hashtag itself because I don't think asking people to respect others in the community is gatekeeping if anything it's a response to people trying to gatekeep. Also people getting frustrated over Fire Force's fanservice was another reason this got brought up but in that case I didn't think there was anything wrong because the original poster just didn't like the use of the fanservice which I think is a fair criticism. That to me was just fans of the show not liking someone mocking a show they liked. I just think it's kind of misrepresenting that some people on this board are painting people upset with others coming in and demanding change in the community as racist white straight guys. The handle I found this out about was from a bisexual Middle Eastern crossdresser who was in support of the hashtag. I am bi myself and I agree with many of their points though not everything. Plus I mean it's not like I am just in love with ecchi anime or that I don't appreciate Shojo or Josei manga and anime or the fact I love many female creators. I am just saying some the above posters are bringing up stuff that is completely unrelated to what is going on. It's just a strawman which many of those who did harass the artist created in order to deflect legitimate concerns about their behavior. Maybe this whole gatekeeping hashtag isn't an example, but there is no denying that "the anime right" people, the kind with the smug loli avatars, are stinking up the fandom as of late. Look at the whole Vic Mignogna case and how ugly the stans got towards the victims with the doxxing and stalking. Most of these people engaging in the harassment, including the fucking lawyers, even admitted to not even caring about anime but just wanting it to be their next scapegoat. I've never seen such an ugly ordeal in the history of the anime fandom. It was really stressful and it's clear that it wasn't the veteran fans causing it. For fuck's sake I remember when people ALWAYS joked about Vic being a fundie that's touchy-feely with kids and how only teenybopper girls liked him. He was like the anime equivalent of Justin Bieber or Twilight and now these people claim to be huuuuuge fans. Well for the Vic case I don't have a stake in it though I do think some of his behavior was weird and I think the Vic supporters really were dumb to pursue a lawsuit that wouldn't fly in Texas. I don't even see it as related to anime because honestly it's just the dubbing community not anime as a whole. I am not going to get into it since I literally don't know much about it outside of accusations from both sides that I never looked into. Plus most people really into it came over from other gate movements and weren't really into anime in the first place or had maybe at most seen DBZ or were fans of RWBY. A good amount of them were women/non white fans who liked Vic as well so you can't pull toxic guys on that front. I just don't think it's very anime related because it's not related to the creation of the content itself just the dubbing of it. That said I thought this thread was about that specific hashtag or frustration about the controversies in anime which again have mostly to do with fanservice. From my perception (because of course there are going to be idiots part of any movement) again that was the main concern is could we see x get cut because of those people. I think it is hysteria because look Nier Automata is pretty anime or "Japan" but was widely consumed in the gaming community so I don't think anime becoming bigger is ever going to see "PLOT" get cut like some are worried about. That said this community has struggled with localization in the past and I don't think people being upset with hostile or shaming comments is wrong. @Manaban Some of it was people not liking Nezuko being sexualized which fine that's a personal preference I wouldn't like art like that myself anyway. Some the comments though did get kinda personal from the thread I read and making assumptions about the person for drawing it or those enjoy it. This has been kinda building you can see the response some have had to Horikoshi from drawing pinups of his characters which is why they are getting stigmatized as casuals or just new fans since a lot of the controversies are around super popular shows. I honestly don't like most fanservice in anime and I don't think it's executed well to be honest (less slapstick more intimate) but there needs to be a general level of respect held. You can't go make personal attacks or assumptions because you don't like what that other person likes. Sure dislike it critique how it's used fine I do that but you always have to keep it non personal. A lot of people struggle with that. |
BilboBaggins365Oct 4, 2019 6:06 PM
| @TolkienFan365 Meh Sounds like the whole upturn in discussion is about that considering that the OP starts mentioning twitter and such almost immediately, and the recentness of it And I know first fucking hand that gatekeepers aren't just right wing white males or whatever, so I'm definitely going to push for that acknowledgement, rather than selectively ignoring based on superficial aspects such as gender or skin color or whatever, given it's a goddamn problem no matter who's doing it >_> |
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| Nothing inflates a debate more than invoking politics to make folks fight Nothing was pondered, nothing was tested Taking a position on instinct and not thinking It's sad folks don't know the difference |
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Manaban said: @TolkienFan365 Meh Sounds like the whole upturn in discussion is about that considering that the OP starts mentioning twitter and such almost immediately, and the recentness of it And I know first fucking hand that gatekeepers aren't just right wing white males or whatever, so I'm definitely going to push for that acknowledgement, rather than selectively ignoring based on superficial aspects such as gender or skin color or whatever, given it's a goddamn problem no matter who's doing it >_> Well it's more I think we are getting away from what started the hashtag which is what started this thread. Still a variety of movements today are quick to strawman because of the nature of discussion today. |
TolkienFan365 said: Manaban said: Haven't heard of this, don't even know what the hash tag is, but the OP is mentioning twitter and such when I look back at it What's happening on that front? ._. Someone made a lewd art piece of Nezuko. So people went after the artist for it so people mostly a lot of the anti-censorship anitwitter group went after them (which again some of the most notable ones include LGBT members, women and a variety of races) and countered later starting the hastag. With out any other knowledge of that case, it honestly sounds like every other bigger fandom drama and NSFW artist (even if they don't focus on fan art) have had in general morality crusaders demanding what they should draw for longer period now. But I admit I was honestly expecting op mentioned hashtag was again related to "animegate" and on level off seriousness "gamers rise up" memes. Since when someone mentions gate anything on mal it is usually that, unless they're speaking of watergate specifically. |
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konkelo said: With out any other knowledge of that case, it honestly sounds like every other bigger fandom drama and NSFW artist (even if they don't focus on fan art) have had in general morality crusaders demanding what they should draw for longer period now. i am beginning to think that moral fags aren't humans at all, but instead a plague of locusts that figured out how to use the internet this is my personal theory at least |
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