| (yuri is going to be use throughout this to include shoujo ai, ‘yuri’ in japan is used to talk about any lesbian relationship, not just sexual ones and so will be used as such) i love yuri but the now growing industry still has a lot of problems. 1) yuri much like yaoi is made for the opposite sex. a lot of yuri is made by men for men and although the amount of yuri written by women is increasing it’s still eclipsed by the amount written by men. tho in the end I’m relatively fine with this, it leaves some things to be desired as often men can fetishise and sexualise the relationships often between young girls (ie mermaid valkyrie, netsuzou trap and the various other yuri hentai on mal) 2) it often depicts just sort of gross relationships. uchi maid, citrus, candy boy and wataten most recently show extreme age gaps (pedophilia) and (arguable) incest. this in a way depicts gay women as predatory. the “straightforwardness” of girls such as mei from citrus were downright uncomfortable to watch as she basically forced herself on yuzu. this leads into point three 3) the harassment. this is handled terribly by many anime, with girls often forced into a relationship or situation that they don’t necessarily consent to. citrus, strawberry panic and tachibanakan triangle are all examples of this, again. and though sometimes it’s used for comedy there are definitely times it’s not and this is very rarely addressed. A series that did handle this extremely well was bloom into you in which in almost all of the situations, yuu consents to nanami’s advances, something that should be more common in not just yuri but straight romances as well. 4) the unwillingness to commit. now more than ever there are anime that extremely strongly hint at relationships between female characters but just... don’t. this yuri bait is not only frustrating but downplays gay relationships between girls to “oh they’re just really close friends” as nothing is ever confirmed. though people may argue that I’m looking too far into it, anime like revue starlight, bang dream, ssss gridman and many “moe” anime don’t confirm romances as the anime are made for men who still want their waifus to be available. i understand not every anime wants to include this kind of thing but when it’s So Heavily Baited, they may as well go that final step. Still though, i love yuri and i can’t wait for the new series that come out. there have been some amazing anime recently such as bloom into you, flip flappers and asagao to kase-san and I’m extremely excited to see this genre evolve and grow in the future! (also apologies but sometimes a girls gotta rant) |
KitceleJan 30, 2019 2:33 AM
| Yeah, pretty much. You'll probably like Aoi Hana, by the way. |
Electik said: 4) the unwillingness to commit. now more than ever there are anime that extremely strongly hint at relationships between female characters but just... don’t. this yuri bait is not only frustrating but downplays gay relationships between girls to “oh they’re just really close friends” as nothing is ever confirmed. though people may argue that I’m looking too far into it, anime like revue starlight, bang dream, ssss gridman and many “moe” anime don’t confirm romances as the anime are made for men who still want their waifus to be available. i understand not every anime wants to include this kind of thing but when it’s So Heavily Baited, they may as well go that final step. !!!!!!!!!!!!! While I haven't watched and tend to avoid most of the predatory and gross shows, I understand your feelings here, so there's not much to add. Specifically, consent not being treated as something mandatory is a huge issue. Bloom into you wasn't completely clean in this aspect (like the scene in episode 9) but it did good, and it could step back when things got complicated. Now, on the bolded. While I understand the feeling over unconfirmed relationships (I think Revue Starlight was quite explicit actually?) in most cases it's just a matter of focus. Moe anime for instance sell their appeal in showing the dynamics of a group while they engage in specific activities, Revue Starlight is about a competition to become the top star, etc. Singularly focused love relationships are seen as intrusive to the appeal of the show because they choose to highlight something else. Your bolded statement has a few issues but I think the biggest is this backwards assumption that these shows are made by and for thirsty men. There has been a lot of debate on what is the kind of relationship these shows build with their audience, but certainly a made up meme term like "waifu" doesn't sit right with shows that spend a lot of time fleshing out characters and introducing them in mundane, non-sexualized routines. I understand this sentiment with harem shows where you are obviously pushed to pick a girl, not with a show about girls making friends and indulging in an activity. This assumption creeps me out, honestly. Not all shows intend to sell you the sex appeal of its characters, and not all shows make it the main focus and reason why they are watched. Plenty of these shows are made and written by women, and women consume these series as well. There's sometimes specific directorial choices to avoid sexualization (the shot composition in Anima Yell! is quite noticeable in what kinds of shots it chooses not to use), and overall, either way, you are observing characters for a long while interacting and growing an emotional bond to them, one that can't be reduced to some sort of ethereal element of the fanbase that would imagine and single out one of them as their waifu. Other than that, I think there's two different approaches to "yuri bait". One is negative, and it's accusing the shows of not wanting to make the step and confirm things, which is the issue you have, this cowardice that you associate with being limited by the desires of the male audience. The other is positive, and it's claiming that they normalize lesbian feelings and undertones just like het feelings and undertones have been normalized in fiction for centuries, not always leading to a romantic confirmation either. I think both have a point and probably none of them is completely right. The reason why I'm more inclined to believe the latter is because I have watched shows where romance wasn't a genre or a theme doing additional steps in confirming lesbian feelings, with characters either nonchalantly or explicitly admitting their crushes. They just don't grow into romances. |
jal90Jan 30, 2019 3:57 AM
| I am on the same page with you on the last three points. But the notion "yuri is primarily written by men" is factually wrong. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XNFo1v8e8133uid9J6ZC4DSfUeqVAYPymdZ1k6iO4ag/edit#gid=0 |
Gewehr98Jan 30, 2019 8:40 AM
| i agree with this 100%. like every word, except the part that i'm not a lesbian. but damn right. i also reject the idea that "it's the same with straight romances" bc 1. it's not 2. like not at all 3. if society doesn't treat straight and non-straight couples the same way, how is any sort of media representation going to do that? if you're a straight person and you're looking for a cute romantic comedy or even a full-on romantic drama between people from opposite sexes, sure, you're gonna find a BUNCH of harrassment, pedophilia disguised as simply an 'age gap' story, rape being relativized and romanticized, sure, you'll find all of that, but just as easily you'll find the cute ass romantic story you're looking for, buckles of it; but if you're a non-straight person looking for non-straight romance, the chances of finding anime that contain all of the horrible things i just mentioned are WAY bigger and finding what you want (an actual romance like asagao to kase-san) will actually be an exception, like a twist of luck, instead of the rule also fuck citrus FOREVER. i was so excited for that show, i thought it was going to be twisted but romantic and right off the bat on the two first episodes we were on the verge of witnessing two rapes just for shock value. fuck that show |
[url=https://myanimelist.net/profile/mifti] [/url] |
jal90 said: Specifically, consent not being treated as something mandatory is a huge issue. Bloom into you wasn't completely clean in this aspect (like the scene in episode 9) but it did good, and it could step back when things got complicated. i felt the same towards bloom into you. when i started watching it i remember telling a couple of lesbian friends to watch out for it bc it looked like it was going to get tangled in the same bs citrus did, but after watching the whole series i kinda understand why they went that way; it's just that if it was an exception to have relationships portrayed like they were in bloom into you, that'd be ok, but bc it's the rule, i tend to get jumpy when i see stuff like that |
[url=https://myanimelist.net/profile/mifti] [/url] |
mifti said: jal90 said: Specifically, consent not being treated as something mandatory is a huge issue. Bloom into you wasn't completely clean in this aspect (like the scene in episode 9) but it did good, and it could step back when things got complicated. i felt the same towards bloom into you. when i started watching it i remember telling a couple of lesbian friends to watch out for it bc it looked like it was going to get tangled in the same bs citrus did, but after watching the whole series i kinda understand why they went that way; it's just that if it was an exception to have relationships portrayed like they were in bloom into you, that'd be ok, but bc it's the rule, i tend to get jumpy when i see stuff like that Yeah, I think what this show does well is getting consent dynamics in a relationship that is obviously one-sided for most of its run since Yuu just goes along with it and Touko is the one who wants. When Touko pushes Yuu the scene is portrayed as uncomfortable and it makes it clear that this is not the way to win Yuu's affection. The scene in episode 9 felt a bit wrong in this aspect though, but it was I think supposed to be uncomfortable. And certainly the lack of invasive framing made it easier to handle. |
Electik said: And though not all shows focus on sex appeal or are made for thirsty men people will still claim their “waifu”... just look at moe shows like k-on and the like, they’re all cute but people are always looking to claim them unfortunately and so will fight saying they’re not actually gay despite all of the hints :/ and particularly on mal the yuri and shoujo ai tags are full of hentai and extremely sub-par shows. i totally get what you mean tho and it is a simplification on my part but it is also something i see all too often...! I mean yeah, there exists a portion of the fanbase who do that. What I'm questioning is if they are the majority, specially when the shows become more and more scarce in scenes that highlight the sex appeal of its characters. If they wanted to build the characters as mere waifus, they are making extra efforts in directions that are useless to this main drive. And well, K-On! was popular and resonated with female audiences, and it was directed by a woman, so that's precisely an example that large generalizations on gender, both in creation and in audience, for these kinds of shows have a lot of issues. I get what you mean about Revue Starlight and the lack of romantic confirmation though. I wouldn't explicitly blame yuri bait for that, but I guess it's symptomatic. |
| I think most "cute girl shows" nowadays are aiming for crossover appeal - characters which are enough of an enticing imaginary girlfriend to please the male audience, and also well enough characterised and respected to please the female audience. |
| by the way i just want to mention that i love this thread |
[url=https://myanimelist.net/profile/mifti] [/url] |
| 1 - Not true. Probably more of the stuff aimed at males gets animated but a large majority of the genre is by women, for women. 2 - Perhaps gross in your opinion. Extreme cherry picking, large majority of yuri manga aren't like that at all. 3 - It's the same in yaoi and straight romance too, in anime books and film. It's just drama. 4 - Yeah bait and switch is shit. |
fuck everything and rumble |
| Gosh it's been a while since I've agreed with someone on this forum to this extent. And this isnt only in gl either, it's also in bl. Its so annoying, as I like to read both types. In hetero romances it's much easier to avoid these tropes as there's such a wide variety. But I have no issues with girls being drawn for the "male gaze" or whatever cause I also like my eye candy as long as the character is fleshed out. I wish there were more lesbian relationships with good fleshed out characters with a good relationship. Sweet but not saccharine sweet either like many cutesy yuri fall into. |
 set by secret santa ; thank you! ily ♥️ |
Mayumi said: But I have no issues with girls being drawn for the "male gaze" or whatever cause I also like my eye candy as long as the character is fleshed out. I wish there were more lesbian relationships with good fleshed out characters with a good relationship. Sweet but not saccharine sweet either like many cutesy yuri fall into. true. i get a little guilty when i realise i'm enjoying fanservice and all but why shouldn't girls be allowed to enjoy ther eye candy (i love this expression lol) too? |
[url=https://myanimelist.net/profile/mifti] [/url] |
| Yes a lot of BL and GL aren't made with a healthy relationship between two individiuals in mind. It's either questionable and exploitative stuff for the sexual gratification of the opposite sex or cutesy fluff with little to no substance. I'm more acquainted with BL but I've heard that GL is no better in that regard. Electik said: it’s a real shame that bl also gets the same treatment when there are a lot fewer works written to begin with. However there are overwhelmingly more BL works then GL works |
AuronJan 30, 2019 5:10 AM
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Electik said: it’s a real shame that bl also gets the same treatment when there are a lot fewer works You assume a lot of things. There's loads more yaoi/shounen-ai stuff out there. |
fuck everything and rumble |
| If you really want cute, not sexualized and not abusive yuri, I do recommend you look into manga instead of anime. Anime will usually do what they think it has a chance to sell, which usually means the more questionable stuff. Or make it subtext so it can appeal to everyone instead of a niche public. But manga usually has better stories. |
Electik said: I agree, sometimes they go too far, but even then I can enjoy it cause I'm that depraved idk. It's kind of a guilty pleasure. glad my rant is getting so much positive feedback 😭 and i agree 100%! it’s a real shame that bl also gets the same treatment when there are a lot fewer works written to begin with. and I’m half on your side with the fanservice as well.. though i like a little bit they can go a little far sometimes! it’s why i had a lot of problems with yuri kuma arashi where i just found it a little uncomfortable to watch But tbh, compared to gl titles, there are way more bl titles. Still doesn't make a rapey abusive shit any less. Bl is so oversaturated with that stuff. mifti said: haha, I've always enjoyed it ,mostly cause I'm gay asf but yeah, it's a guilty true. i get a little guilty when i realise i'm enjoying fanservice and all but why shouldn't girls be allowed to enjoy ther eye candy (i love this expression lol) too? pleasure tbh |
TinniJan 30, 2019 5:39 AM
set by secret santa ; thank you! ily ♥️ |
| I dont like yuri and i dont like yaoi tho Yaoi... The reason is simple im homophobic but sometimes its fun to watch some gay stuff to laugh at it With yuri... Well im still homophobic tho but i like it even less than yaoi coz its not good to laugh at mostly, they make it too serious and too forced (while yaoi is usually forced even more it has element of fun to it) . Thats what i think at least |
  Well... ... ... |
| A couple of caveats before I get into it for reals: 1) I'm not into yuri/GL or yaoi/BL. At all. It ain't my thing. 2) I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's feelings or criticisms. I'm trying to broaden perspectives and get people to rethink their perspectives a bit. With that out of the way... It's just not for you, just like it's just not for me. However, it is for somebody. I wouldn't want to take away a fujoshi's BL/yaoi or change it to reflect accurate male same-sex relationships anymore than I like it when people barge into something I like and try to take it away or change it. There are (mostly) manga about same-sex relationships for LGBTQ+ readers out there. No, it's true, they're not easy to find--a lot of that is due to demographic demand in Japan. What you and others should want isn't that the existing material change to suit your tastes but that more material is produced with your tastes in mind. You are a demographic group that deserves to have its demands supplied by the industry. A lot of people misunderstand a lot of yuri. This goes for LGBTQ+ readers/viewers and hetero readers/viewers alike. There is a "custom" of sorts in Japan that late grade-school and middle-school Japanese girls (specifically) will "practice date" one-another in preparation for dating members of the opposite sex. The bonds of friendship that develop between the two girls are usually strengthened. On rare occasions, the relationship persists into high school but that is a tiny percentage. The vast majority of the time, practice dating ends by 9th or 10th grade and the girls will then go on to date members of the opposite sex. Hanging onto the relationship can be seen as childish. This custom informs some yuri manga/anime (not all, probably about 1/4 to 1/2 I'm guessing). I seem to remember this being the case with a character in one of the Fire Emblem games, where Westerners were up in arms that you could "de-gay-ify" a female character (if you were playing a male) who had dated another female character. When placed in a more Japanese perspective, it was less about "gay vs straight" than it was a character who had difficulty moving on from their middle school "practice relationship." I don't recall much of the details so take this with a grain of salt. If I knew more about BL/yaoi and GL/yuri I may be able to recommend titles by-and-for the LGBTQ+ reader. I know of My Brother's Husband but I don't think that's what you're seeking and it's less of a romance and more of a slice-of-life about Japanese society and how it treats homosexuality. However, I do know the works you're looking for are out there. |
Fvlminatvs said: A lot of people misunderstand a lot of yuri. This goes for LGBTQ+ readers/viewers and hetero readers/viewers alike. There is a "custom" of sorts in Japan that late grade-school and middle-school Japanese girls (specifically) will "practice date" one-another in preparation for dating members of the opposite sex. The bonds of friendship that develop between the two girls are usually strengthened. On rare occasions, the relationship persists into high school but that is a tiny percentage. The vast majority of the time, practice dating ends by 9th or 10th grade and the girls will then go on to date members of the opposite sex. Hanging onto the relationship can be seen as childish. I'm sorry, but that's not what yuri is and neither this is a common practice in Japan. That's just a meme. Class S was a thing, but it's over. |
Grandassassin said: The only Yuri anime that I like is Rin Daughters of Mnemosyne, It's more mature with the depictions of Lesbianism but its a really good series that you should check out, If you can handle the mature content. Mmm, not sure about that one. I mean, it is a good show, on a technical level, achieving the goals it sets out for itself, successfully conveying some tricky and worthwhile things. But as I remember, it is quite interested in the image of women being horribly tortured, and the central relationship is moderately fetishised too. It seems an example of something which is aimed at men rather than lesbians, contrary to the goals of this thread. |
| What is this tripe? Let me address your points: 1) Your trying to pull some kind of victim card here, but it doesn't make sense. Mostly women are the ones writing yuri. Certainly, the most well known yuri mangaka are all women. Ironically, Kodama Naoko, the author of Netsuzou Trap is a woman, so there's goes your assumptions about the yuri women would write. 2) You're just being a prude now. I mean, they have sex before marriage, too! The horror! Many "gross" things are depicted in fiction, and even if you think in yuri is always entirely gratuitous, you're going to miss out on plenty of engaging works by blanketly avoiding anything that makes you mildly uncomfortable. 3) None of the examples you provide have any one being forced into relationship. Definitely not in Citrus or Strawberry Panic. Your point here is too vague as those situations might have a role to play in the story. In Citrus, for example, it's not only addressed, but it's the catalyst for everything that came after. 4) We're talking about yuri here, right? If an anime doesn't "commit", then it isn't yuri, and therefore isn't relevant for this discussion. "Yuri bait" is just shippers trying to save some face after stubbornly believing their ship was going to happen despite all evidence to the contrary. You weren't baited, just wrong. Also, make up your mind, either men "fetishise and sexualise the relationships often between young girls" or they want their waifus to be "available". |
on 
| Yup, I think I can understand why you're upset. The industry is indeed sexist after all, but let me just ask one thing: would you be okay with everything you said if there was explicit consent? |
  Grant me one hour on love's most sacred shores To clasp the bosom that my soul adores, Lie heart to heart and merge my soul with yours |
Electik said: And though not all shows focus on sex appeal or are made for thirsty men people will still claim their “waifu”... just look at moe shows like k-on and the like, they’re all cute but people are always looking to claim them unfortunately and so will fight saying they’re not actually gay despite all of the hints :/ and particularly on mal the yuri and shoujo ai tags are full of hentai and extremely sub-par shows. i totally get what you mean tho and it is a simplification on my part but it is also something i see all too often...! What I'm questioning is why you're opting to get so goddamn huffy over people doing waifu stuff in the first place. Your issues doesn't seem too far removed from the type of behavior you seem to rail against a little bit of denying the sexual orientation of characters, whether or not that your interpretation holds water or not withstanding. I will say that your assertions are ostensibly relying heavily on perceived baiting and teasing with "Oh it's so obvious" to turn it into an absolute concrete, which doesn't necessarily tend to make your interpretation the truth, albeit given I haven't seen many of these shows I don't especially care for actually discussing them in this sense, it just seems worth noting the kind of signals that it sends off. What's more important here is to just let people have their attachments, let them interact and participate in something in a way that works for them. That doesn't lead into hatefulness or anything actually a problem beyond your personal distaste for how they respond to a character, which is pretty much what the bottom line is here. Nothing good or actually useful to anyone is going to come from getting pissy at people who have the sheer audacity to enjoy a work or character in a way you personally don't agree with or like. Also kind of want to add that there is nothing wrong with fetishizing or sexualizing a work, especially when the works themselves are often overtly sexual in nature, and trying to finger wave at male audiences for doing so seems absurd and somewhat prejudiced on your part. |
ManabanJan 30, 2019 9:01 AM
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Manaban said: Electik said: And though not all shows focus on sex appeal or are made for thirsty men people will still claim their “waifu”... just look at moe shows like k-on and the like, they’re all cute but people are always looking to claim them unfortunately and so will fight saying they’re not actually gay despite all of the hints :/ and particularly on mal the yuri and shoujo ai tags are full of hentai and extremely sub-par shows. i totally get what you mean tho and it is a simplification on my part but it is also something i see all too often...! What I'm questioning is why you're opting to get so goddamn huffy over people doing waifu stuff in the first place. Your issues doesn't seem too far removed from the type of behavior you seem to rail against a little bit of denying the sexual orientation of characters, whether or not that your interpretation holds water or not withstanding. I will say that your assertions are ostensibly relying heavily on perceived baiting and teasing with "Oh it's so obvious" to turn it into an absolute concrete, which doesn't necessarily tend to make your interpretation the truth, albeit given I haven't seen many of these shows I don't especially care for actually discussing them in this sense, it just seems worth noting the kind of signals that it sends off. What's more important here is to just let people have their attachments, let them interact and participate in something in a way that works for them. That doesn't lead into hatefulness or anything actually a problem beyond your personal distaste for how they respond to a character, which is pretty much what the bottom line is here. Nothing good or actually useful to anyone is going to come from getting pissy at people who have the sheer audacity to enjoy a work or character in a way you personally don't agree with or like. Also kind of want to add that there is nothing wrong with fetishizing or sexualizing a work, especially when the works themselves are often overtly sexual in nature, and trying to finger wave at male audiences for doing so seems absurd and somewhat prejudiced on your part. I think she's more worried about how LGBTQ are portrayed in general, since it seems sometimes they are just there to appeal to very specific fetishes. I mean, I see you have a reasonable point here as well, and I kind of agree that there is nothing wrong with fetishizing or sexualizing a work, but I think the question here is not whether is fine fetishizing and sexualizing, but rather the specific and absurd fanservice underlying the industry. If anything, I think you can have both the sex appeal and the fair characterization, but to achieve that the community needs to change a little bit. |
Grant me one hour on love's most sacred shores To clasp the bosom that my soul adores, Lie heart to heart and merge my soul with yours |
Sachyan said: I think she's more worried about how LGBTQ are portrayed in general, since it seems sometimes they are just there to appeal to very specific fetishes. ...that is not at all an exclusive thing to that group, though. Men are done the same. Women are done the same. Various ethnicities are done the same. Fetishization is extremely reliant on idealization and creating certain kind of contexts to cultivate the appeal of it. Sex itself is a more narrativized and idealized act when you get down to the psychology involved, and that happens to extend to sex appeal and forms of sexual attraction. Which does end up meaning that these works are often intended to be indulgent in nature and offer up idealistic portrayals to further fuel those underlying fantasty-oriented elements, and there's obviously going to be some kind of dissonance whenever things like what one finds sexually attractive is brought into the equation, no matter what environment you're doing that in. I'd be hard pressed to agree that having a character that is about appealing to a fetish in a sexualized work is an issue in of itself. I'd probably be more apt to say that there'd be more of an issue in trying to take a character, then take their sexuality or gender or ethnicity, and trying to hoist that up as being representative of that entire portion of the population based on that element in order to decry or lambast certain kinds of portrayals on grounds of offense or insensitivity or not representing a gender or sexuality well, but meh. Whether it's being as treated as poor writing or not withstanding, it often comes off as neglecting individuality in favor of collectivism based on incredibly superficial aspects of somebody's identity, because I'm really, actually convinced that the people that compose any of these sort of "groups" are so simple that their gender or sexuality is the defining aspect of their entire identity and who they are as a person, and that sharing genitals or sexual orientation doesn't necessarily make them pretty much the same and being represented by a character who also shares those same aspects. Kind of like, I am a white heterosexual man from Germany. I do not see the ludicrous amount of awful people in fiction and media who fit those same traits and hold that up as something that's supposed to be representative of me. To do so makes absolutely no sense to me, because I know I am not like that and I know how I am and what I want to be like, even though I pretty much share the same base set of those areas that people tend to hold up as representative in some way with a lot of those villainous characters. But we share the same ethnicity, sexual orientation, and gender in many cases, which is pretty much the big three when it comes to these things. I think it's just foreigners having fun with their post-WWII good-over-evil thing, so let them do their thing, it's fine. Yet, if they meet one of these criteria, let alone all three, it gets hoisted up as a representative of the individuals belonging to this group, even if it's obviously something they explicitly don't consider to be the case. Or at least I'm convinced this uglier, more collectivist side of these kinds of things to bare its fangs a lot more when it comes to idealistic/sexualized portrayals, and it makes less sense to me in these topics than anywhere else, because it isn't even egregious or demonizing portrayals if you ask me, it's just...idealized and fetishized portrayals. My issue isn't necessarily with advocating or pushing for certain kinds of portrayals one considers favorable, though, that just seems natural regardless of what the context is, but I don't like the demonization of these elements and ways of interacting and consuming media from the male audience's part that I feel is going on here to an extent. It not only feels short-sighted and lacking in perspective, but a bit vitriolic and haphazard in application. And considering that things don't operate in a vacuum, well, I do want to add that the OP that started this discussion is an actual mysandrist. Not in the polarized sense of using genderphobic terms that tends to be so prevalent these days, either misogyny or mysandry, but in the literal, explicit sense of it, with a stated, vindictive "eye for an eye" style M.O. for being so, which does kind of make me feel even more on edge about the intent of a lot of the issues being outlined and what's being asserted as the root cause of issues by the OP, honestly. Biased perception is pretty impossible for me to distance from them and the way this topic is being addressed, they center it on male audiences and how we sexualize things or do waifu-stuff or whatever so heavily, and then try to utilize their own sexual orientation to try to compound this. I'm not trying to be rude - I could be completely wrong, even - but I do feel like there's a degree of fork-tonguedness going on in this thread and that concerns me whenever it's being made into an LGBT+ issue that people are rallying around. I guess for a metaphor, I don't think the issues should be whether other characters in the MMORPG are wearing bikini armor, basically. If you want your character to have a full set of armor that seems more practical and fitting to the character you want to play, then push for it, sure, that's totally fair game. But the OP and a lot of the discussion surrounding the outlined issues comes across like it's trying to make an issue of people who want to play characters who wear bikini armor. And no, I can't say I think this is a good way to approach the topic of wanting more of a certain type of portrayal. It's too finger-pointing and trying to treat the mere existence of certain kinds of people who want to see and interact with media in ways that the OP doesn't necessarily approve of as the primary issue with a lack of representation they consider positive for them, "it's those people who are the problem and this is a greater issue with the whole community we need to solve" is more or less how a lot of this reads to me, and that's kind of where I begin to draw the line at what's a productive and positive way of trying to push and advocate certain portrayals and what's a negative and hostile way of doing so. I see you have a reasanable point here as well, and I kind of agree that there is nothing wrong with fetishizing or sexualizing a work, but I think the question here is not wether is fine fetishizing and sexualizing, but rather the specific and absurd fanservice underlying the industry. I don't think that it's an issue to have things that appeal to specific types of people within a work, if that's what you're trying to say. Nor do I think that idealization for the sake of indulgence is really the primary issue of anything and that it kind of seems to be a scapegoat for a perceived lack of portrayals that fall in-line with the stated desire, but eh, that might be too presumptuous of me so I say that with a strong degree of hesitance. I will be honest, I'm not entirely sure we're on the same wavelength with what you're trying to communicate with this paragraph because "the specific and absurd fanservice" is a bit vague, but I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that you're meaning the more sexually idealized portrayals of characters? If anything, I think you can have both the sex appeal and the fair characterization, but to achieve that the community needs to change a little bit. I think we already have that to larger degrees than the vast majority seem willing to be give credit for, but meh. I've argued that so many times and tried to provide all of the examples and perspective that I possibly could, but I don't really ever get met with much of a counter response other than "Yeah but characters who aren't well written and are heavily sexualized exist! I know they do!" which I'm much more convinced that's just poor writing and not an inherent problem of the way people interact with this kind of media or a symptom of a grander issue with the community that tends to surround such works, but I guess there's just something I'm missing out on here. |
ManabanJan 30, 2019 11:10 AM
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| @Manaban I understand is quite upsetting and I know a lot of people here would think waifu, loli, ecchi, harem and fanservice are probably the cancer of the industry, so I see why you try to argue against that. I don't have anything against any of that, since it doesn't do any harm. Even if you're jerking off to a teenager or rape scene, that doesn't necessarily mean you will rape someone or hit on high school girls lol. I think the sexually idealized portrayals of characters are fine, they don't bother me at all. What I'm trying to say is LGBTQ portrayals are usually there just to sex appeal, hence is even surprising when they're actually not. They usually are just supporting characters with very little exposition. And even when they're more than just supporting, is hardly ever clear if they're gay, bi or not, is usually just strange hints that appears as jokes, and that's what I call cheap fanservice. Why not just say they're gay, bi, trans, I'm sure they would be much more solid. |
GuidSMRJan 30, 2019 10:18 AM
Grant me one hour on love's most sacred shores To clasp the bosom that my soul adores, Lie heart to heart and merge my soul with yours |
Sachyan said: @Manaban I understand is quite upsetting and I know a lot of people here would think waifu, loli, ecchi, harem and fanservice are probably the cancer of the industry, so I see why you try to argue against that. I don't have anything against any of that, since it doesn't do any harm. Even if you're jerking off to a teenager or rape scene, that doesn't necessarily mean you will rape someone or hit on high school girls lol. I think the sexually idealized portrayals of characters are fine, they don't bother me at all. What I'm trying to say is LGBTQ portrayals are usually there just to sex appeal, hence is even surprising when they're actually not. They usually are just supporting characters with very little exposition. And even if they're more than just supporting, is hardly ever clear if they're gay, bi or not, is usually just strange hints that appears as jokes, and that's what I call cheap fanservice. Why not just say they're gay, bi, trans, I'm sure they would be much more solid. Well, Iunno, I don't do much BL or GL so I don't know shit aside from what I've heard secondhand, but I will say that I think it's totally fine to push for more shit that you want to see and try to outline the reasons that you see it as a good or productive thing. That goes without saying, in any context whatsoever, LGBT+ portrayals or more of certain -dere types, just whatever. Anybody who says otherwise is being needlessly defensive and can go fuck themselves, more or less, whether I agree and want the same or not. Same with being critical over other types of portrayals, and again, that's all-encompassing. It's less what's being criticized or advocated, and more why and how it's being criticized or advocated. In turn, those are free to be rebuked if the other person's perspective clashes with it. Really, it's just basic conversation that I think should be the way this shit gets approached, normal fucking discourse, but then the issue is always with "them" and never with "us" and ostensibly trying to appeal to this kind of audience is the *real* root of the issue and blah blah blah. Those aren't behaviors exclusive to any stance, from my experience, yet I worry they've only become more and more tolerated as things have become more and more polarized. Such is High Guardian Spice for the SJW cucks, such is Shield Hero for the virgin incels. Eventually we're going to have to build a wall to keep out people who want to see these kinds of things and think differently out, they're only sending us rapists and criminals. At the end of the day, I was just more concerned with the elements of this discussion that I attempted to outline, because I don't think they really provide anything except a needlessly hostile foundation for these types of discussion over fetishized and sexualized characters/what's being deemed positive representation to stem from. |
ManabanJan 30, 2019 10:48 AM
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Manaban said: It's less what's being criticized or advocated, and more why and how it's being criticized or advocated. In turn, those are free to be rebuked if the other person's perspective clashes with it. Really, it's just basic conversation that I think should be the way this shit gets approached, normal fucking discourse, but then the issue is always with "them" and never with "us" and ostensibly trying to appeal to this kind of audience is the *real* root of the issue and blah blah blah. Those aren't behaviors exclusive to any stance, from my experience, yet I worry they've only become more and more tolerated as things have become more and more polarized[...] At the end of the day, I was just more concerned with the elements of this discussion that I attempted to outline, because I don't think they really provide anything except a needlessly hostile foundation for these types of discussion over fetishized and sexualized characters/what's being deemed positive representation to stem from. I have to admit that I sense the hostility as well, and even though I tend to agree that there should be a big change on how characterization and interactions are handled in this media, I feel you. Sometimes it seems people here are treating anyone who thinks differently and enjoys whatever they don't as scum and disgusting otaku trash, even when they're not so much different from one to another. |
Grant me one hour on love's most sacred shores To clasp the bosom that my soul adores, Lie heart to heart and merge my soul with yours |
| So I guess here's a point where I have to make a defense for Citrus yet again... The criticism of Citrus containing sexual assault is an incredibly vapid one for few reasons. Firstly, it is never depicted in a positive light. These events are a byproduct of Mei's misconception of how relationships work, as a result of her upbringing. This is not only addressed, but is also a legitimate conflict which Yuzu tries to amend. Secondly, Yuzu is never "forced" into a relationship, as it's made clear that she had feelings for Mei well before that first assault. Falling for Mei was by Yuzu's own accord. Lastly, this is also why it isn't just "shock value" as it has a reason to be present. Mei's unhealthy coping mechanisms and distorted perceptions of relationships are evident all the way down to basic dialogue and mannerisms, which are shown throughout the story outside of her sexual advances. This is a frustratingly vapid criticism that should damn well have passed long ago, and it's tiring when I have to repeatedly divulge the reality of Citrus and its content. Here's something all the more baffling about the OP post: your example of this "handled well" is Bloom Into You having consensual advances. This is where non-consensual advances are absent, not "handled well". There's nothing of this sort to be addressed like you say, because it simply isn't there. This doesn't at all serve as an example of your main point. |
AltoRoarkJan 30, 2019 3:04 PM
AltoRoark said: Here's something all the more baffling about the OP post: your example of this "handled well" is Bloom Into You having consensual advances. This is where non-consensual advances are absent, not "handled well". There's nothing of this sort to be addressed like you say, because it simply isn't there. This doesn't at all serve as an example of your main point. But there are non-consensual advances in Bloom into you (first half of episode 9 for instance), and they are handled... well enough. It's still my least favorite part of the show. I haven't watched Citrus though so I don't know how it compares. |
| @jal90 Yeah I know, I'm just referring to how OP was using those instances of consent as an example when it doesn't apply to the main point. On another note, I didn't mind those parts in ep 9 since it was Touko simply getting carried away, and she's later regretful and self-conscious about this action. I do think that's a good way to handle those scenes, even though Touko and Mei are worlds apart in terms of characterization. |
AltoRoark said: @jal90 Yeah I know, I'm just referring to how OP was using those instances of consent as an example when it doesn't apply to the main point. On another note, I didn't mind those parts in ep 9 since it was Touko simply getting carried away, and she's later regretful and self-conscious about this action. I do think that's a good way to handle those scenes, even though Touko and Mei are worlds apart in terms of characterization. Yep, I think it's a good way as well and in the end it did serve a purpose, to emphasize how uncomfortable things are when Touko tries to advance on Yuu without consent. But at the moment it was difficult to digest, and a bit tasteless at that point of the show, because it already deals with a complicated situation in their relationship with the lack of fluid emotional correspondence between them two. Bloom into you is probably not the best scenario to portray these non-consensual moments because consent is particularly complex to handle in that series. Not to mention that, well... |
jal90Jan 30, 2019 12:11 PM
Gersoncs said: I'm sorry, but that's not what yuri is and neither this is a common practice in Japan. That's just a meme. Class S was a thing, but it's over. Whelp, I looked it up and it seems you are right. It's just a literary trope and I couldn't find much to corroborate it. You learn something new everyday. |
Maneki-Mew said: AltoRoark said: Firstly, it is never depicted in a positive light. These events are a byproduct of Mei's misconception of how relationships work, as a result of her upbringing. This is not only addressed, but is a legitimate conflict which Yuzu tries to amend. Well, I know that they are coming from Mei's wrong views towards relationships and therefore it's actually "fine". But the visuals for these scenes are still... not right lol. They are not fitting the plot and characteristics of "Mei's doing that, because of her personality". They are portrayed as "this is hot!" Are you sure about that? The first instance of this is not portrayed like you say. It shows Yuzu struggling, Mei being forceful, and Mei uttering "that's what it felt like" afterward in a shot with Mei from above as a black silhouette. The second instance begins with Yuzu becoming aware of her sexuality, and then Mei acting on her, Yuzu retaliating, and Mei erroneously saying Yuzu looked as though she wanted it. Everything else...doesn't even need explaining, since the discomfort is emphasized even further through the behavior and expression of both characters, with Mei even getting slapped in the last of them. One thing to consider as well is Yuzu's own sexual excitement in some of these scenes, which quickly follows with Yuzu gaining control over herself, knowing this is not a desirable position to be in. Episode 6 is perhaps the most clear-cut example, with Yuzu behaving submissively, and then hitting Mei seconds after. |
AltoRoarkJan 31, 2019 9:04 AM
| Sorry in advance for my broken english 1-I don't think that is the case.Agreed with Netsuzou Trap and Valkyrie Drive being complete trash, not only in portraying lesbianism, but in general. 2-Although Candy Boy is indeed about incestuous lesbians, the sisters barely have any romantic (even less sexual) interaction to say it promotes incest, even less in a gross way. But whatever I'm not defending that series nor incestuous relationships since I don't like neither of those things. 3-Agreed. This is not just a problem with yuri but with romance anime in general. The worst example in yuri I can remember is Kannazuki no Miko. It can be used for thematic exploration though, as it was the case with a manwha called What Does the Fox Says? (Yes, like the song) 4-I still don't get how people see yuri bait in Gridman, one girl loves a guy and the other doesn't show any kind of attraction towards anyone in particular. Agreed with bait being a bad thing. Basically it seems to me you want more 'sweet' yuri stuff, I would reccommend checking out Prism and Girl Friends in case you haven't yet, even if you're not a manga reader 'cause they are short. |
| i think there's a sense that this is a genre issue rather than a social issue. it's not about being angry that a certain type of anime you like isn't made more often or isn't made the way you like it, as well as its not a matter of ranting for having watched something you disagreed with or disliked or thought was in poor taste. media representation is a matter that has real consequences, positive and negative ones. a harmful representation of lgbtq youth has harmful consequences in real life. obviously it's not as simple as "if you watch something bad then you'll do bad things", but the fact that it isn't as simple and objective as that doesn't make it less harmful. to observe and judge media representation as if they were simply fiction and therefore unable to have actual effect on society is either misinformed or dishonest |
[url=https://myanimelist.net/profile/mifti] [/url] |
| I'm not a lesbian but I share many of those issues, especially the one about consent and commitment. I just can't respect these 'bait' shows where fans have to write paragraphs about 'subtext' to even argue that anything homosexual is going on at all, and it'll often sound more like headcanon than representing what actually happened in the show. You need a vivid imagination, to say the least. If a show lacks the balls to be explicit, it doesn't deserve to be given props for being 'brave' or 'representation' or anything like that. The fact that they are afraid to commit and retreat to the safety of bait and half-fictional 'subtexts' is exactly the problem, and not a good thing. And I include stuff like Yuri on Ice in that category. There needs to be more room between cowardly bait that barely even touches the topic and open fetishization like in most Yaoi and Yuri titles, for actual, well done romances that tackle LGBTQ issues and give us introspectives of LGBTQ characters. Sadly there's a whole 3 anime I'd put into that category that I know of, and 2 of those were just memorable for not being as bad as the others but didn't really stand out that much to me either. But I personally never saw Uzamaid or Wataten as LGBTQ or yuri anime in the slightest. They don't have lesbain characters, they have lolicons. They don't target LGBTQ audiences, they target lolicons. The fact that the lolicon is genderbent in these newer titles is probably just a way to avoid being seen as too creepy to adapt or something like that. But I definitely saw them as pure lolicon anime (Uzamaid also had pretty great comedy and everything but that one was an excaption). So I wouldn't really list them alongside stuff like Citrus. There never is any actual romantic relationship established, not even close. It's just a bunch of lolicon fantasies attached to a female char so it can be sold as comedy and not as molestation. |
AlcoholicideJan 30, 2019 4:25 PM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
2) it often depicts just sort of gross relationships. uchi maid, citrus, candy boy and wataten most recently show extreme age gaps (pedophilia) and (arguable) incest. This is definitely not something exclusive to Yuri, but all of anime as a whole. Pretty twisted shit, but hey, whatever floats your boat I suppose. |
Pullman said: I'm not a lesbian but I share many of those issues, especially the one about consent and commitment. I just can't respect these 'bait' shows where fans have to write paragraphs about 'subtext' to even argue that anything homosexual is going on at all, and it'll often sound more like headcanon than representing what actually happened in the show. You need a vivid imagination, to say the least. If a show lacks the balls to be explicit, it doesn't deserve to be given props for being 'brave' or 'representation' or anything like that. The fact that they are afraid to commit and retreat to the safety of bait and half-fictional 'subtexts' is exactly the problem, and not a good thing. And I include stuff like Yuri on Ice in that category. Still waiting for you to actually watch Yuri on Ice though :P I think what you mention here is a matter of how the fanbase behaves. A show can have subtext and people can enjoy and expand on that subtext, but there's no need to take it as a Holy Grail of Canon. It's an element that allows some sort of involvement. It's not something dishonest per se, just an appeal. And no, people shouldn't give merit where there isn't, but they don't. Actually, people more often than not wish that subtext was made explicit. This is why the most praised element in this aspect of Anima Yell! is not having two main girls with a clear yet only comedically framed crush on fellow girls, it's the coming out scene. And I mean, it's funny that you talk about Yuri on Ice... Pullman said: But I personally never saw Uzamaid or Wataten as LGBTQ or yuri anime in the slightest. They don't have lesbain characters, they have lolicons. They don't target LGBTQ audiences, they target lolicons. The fact that the lolicon is genderbent in these newer titles is probably just a way to avoid being seen as too creepy to adapt or something like that. But I definitely saw them as pure lolicon anime (Uzamaid also had pretty great comedy and everything but that one was an excaption). So I wouldn't really list them alongside stuff like Citrus. There never is any actual romantic relationship established, not even close. It's just a bunch of lolicon fantasies attached to a female char so it can be sold as comedy and not as molestation. Wataten is published in Comic Yuri Hime, though, which is a specific magazine that focuses on GL. I'd so like to exclude it just like that due to issues with its concept, but the fact it is treated as something worthy of being in a GL magazine is still there. |
jal90Jan 30, 2019 5:29 PM
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