Battle shounen being misunderstood on this website

200 hundred replies, and not one actually managed to give a counter-argument to the OP claim.

Also, from my understanding, battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic. I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.

@katsucats

“Whining” against injustice? As if pointing out something Injust is wrong or immature? Despite history practically revolving around people calling out injustice??
The fact you say it’s whining when injustice is argued says a lot.
And speak for yourself, all I hear in battle shounen communities IS people discussing the nuance. There will obviously always be people that only want to be entertained, but a LOT of young people pay attention to the nuances in fiction aimed at tweens and teens


When philosophers do it!“challenging each others philosophies” its deep, but when shounen does it it’s suddenly not 😅

@Kenzolo-folk
Don't worry. I'm also willing to shit on him when he opens the gates instead of staying in his castle.
I'm just a little jealous of him because I tend to write endless walls of text and am unable to condense it into something that is expendable when needed. Especially when combining opinions that relate to my taste and logic/semantics in some direct or indirect way at the same time.

(I had to look up "holy gaze meaning Gen-Z" XD ... I'm already too old, even though I'm still young)

Really? You don't think devoting something to a target demographic might shape its contents?

@katsucats

“Whining” against injustice? As if pointing out something Injust is wrong or immature? Despite history practically revolving around people calling out injustice??
The fact you say it’s whining when injustice is argued says a lot.
And speak for yourself, all I hear in battle shounen communities IS people discussing the nuance. There will obviously always be people that only want to be entertained, but a LOT of young people pay attention to the nuances in fiction aimed at tweens and teens


When philosophers do it!“challenging each others philosophies” its deep, but when shounen does it it’s suddenly not 😅

@Kenzolo-folk

Thats not the issue here. The issue is that these shows cover these topics in the most shallow manner. The typical battle Shonen protagonists rarely introspect on their very personal philosophies, ideas and goals. Luffy never once questions his life-time goal of becoming Pirate-King, Naruto never questions his 'bond' with Sasuke, at all. It was something definite. All about 'Never giving up' and that sort.

Though, Naruto came into conflict with his idea of becoming Hokage during the Pain Arc, but all of that was quickly undone when he did that shitty talk-no-jutsu with him. But his one-sided relationship with Sasuke is never given doubt by him. When he is questioned about it, he gives the same generic answers about never giving up, and those sort of things. These types of MCs are the most convenient for authors to write because it pushes the plot forward without any need to give a character meaningful development. There's a reason why they're most common in an industry where authors are given very tight weekly deadlines.

Really? You don't think devoting something to a target demographic might shape its contents?

@Kenzolo-folk Be honest, you haven't read a single philosophical argument if you're comparing the shallow motivations comic book writers aim at little kids with serious discussions about the meaning of things. The fact that you are unironically saying everything you're saying proves my point.

Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is.


Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word?


I agree, for example Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is not edgy, the titles you listed are.


Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen. This why it is you who are "misunderstanding" the genre, not the average MAL user.


I pretended it doesn't exist? Why I am even posting here than?


But I was cliticising you for seeing it as way more elaborated than it is.


Said the person who praises products which goals are to pander, addict and hype teens, for being deep products.




Not really, said action shounen needs more traits like power levels, tree of skills, the fights coming in a form of duels and other stuff.

Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is.


Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word?


I agree, for example Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is not edgy, the titles you listed are.


Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen. This why it is you who are "misunderstanding" the genre, not the average MAL user.


I pretended it doesn't exist? Why I am even posting here than?


But I was cliticising you for seeing it as way more elaborated than it is.


Said the person who praises products which goals are to pander, addict and hype teens, for being deep products.




Not really, said action shounen needs more traits like power levels, tree of skills, the fights coming in a form of duels and other stuff.

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).

@Zlyiond

Luffy does actually have a lot of retrospect towards his personality and his goal. In the saboady arc he immediately punches a celestial dragon which puts his entire team in danger and his actions caused them to be separated for two years. Luffys overconfidence at first is endearing but quickly becomes a liability. He questions if he’s strong enough for this goal because he greatly underestimated the marines. Up until Thriller bark and arguably marineford, Luffy overhyped himself too much and thought he was invincible. When he loses ace he realizes that he has a lot of development to do. I think Naruto’s obsession with bringing back sasuke makes sense given his upbringing. Because he’s always been friendless, the one connection he made no matter how shallow it was he held onto that for an unreasonably long time. Other ninjas and even Itachi is confused by how much he’s willing to go for sasuke 😭 but I think dude was just lonely. But he’s said many times that he related to Sasuke’s loneliness. The naruto series isn’t perfect so there’s some obvious hiccups, but naruto does undoubtedly question his ideas and philosophies.

I definitely agree that they’re very convenient for the authors to write but although the “never give up” theme is everywhere, it still speaks to a lot of people regardless. I think it’s also easier for authors to put themselves into their work becwuse they also had to not give up on their dreams. Like the author of naruto who was rejected numerous times by his editor and was also allegedly a social outcast when he was a kid.

@Kenzolo-folk

Bro, that's not what I am talking about. I am not talking about him questioning HOW he will become pirate-king, but WHY. WHY does it appeal to him a lot? His personal philosophies, ideas and morality is not even something he is aware of. What you are talking about is the consequences of his very hard-willed and stubborn personality, though I'd argue he doesn't suffer any meaningful set-backs in the story due to his flaws, but that is a different discussion entirely.

Naruto in contrast is different. He questions his ideals and philosophy, but only when the plot demands it convenient. Like I mentioned, he is able to somewhat question his life-goal of becoming Hokage once learning Konoha's corruption through Pain, but it is entirely sold on saving and redeeming Sasuke, no questions asked (Sasuke knew him for 7 months max). Or when he cries at the fate Haku had to face, and questions the idea that Shinobis must be tools used by others, but is conveniently made to gloss over the fate Itachi had to endure by Konoha itself (Itachi was used as a tool by the elders to wipe out his clan).


The never give-up gets tiring when over 100 shows have very similar themes. That is why people dislike battle shonen. It becomes excessively repetitive.

200 hundred replies, and not one actually managed to give a counter-argument to the OP claim.

Also, from my understanding, battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic. I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.

I mentioned this before, teens love edgy stuff, this is why we are getting it a lot in shounen and shoujo.


Skill issue?


Naaah. man. I will say for example Eren, you will ask for even more derails ect to infinity.
You know perfectly well what I am talking, don't pretend...


Yes but:
1. It's a battle shounen.
2. It demonstrates how edgy battle shounen characters are written.


Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it.


Not "deepest", but you said we aren't "undersetting" how deep those are...but actually we are.
Some show simply going dark is not that big of achievement - you need it to execute it skilfully. Naruto screaming his emotions in the face of the viewer is kind of blunt.


What substance means to you (a rhetorical question)? Repeating some obvious stuff like "Have more friends and allies!" isn't, because we are talking teens here, not kindergarteners. They already know that.

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).

Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.

Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.

Are you trolling?
Is it that hard to understand that battle shounen is pretty easy to get and that it has nothing deep about it?
Even the intended demographic is seeing it simply as entertainment, not as the substantial life lessons you see in it.



One of the reasons battle shounen fans love this genre - they are masochists.

The point is the labeling. Who decides the labeling?

If we go by my definition, then the shows labeled as such will be very different from each other.

My definition and other definitions mean nothing, because this is a made-up term with no official definition of its own. What random users think about it means nothing.

That's why I think all the obsession (and preferably the term itself) should just disappear.

When I hear isekai, I only know it means a person transported to another world.

The closest thing I ever seen something like this happening was in "Record of Ragnarok" the freaken Anime is flooded with flashbacks which was one of the reasons why I completely lost interest in such an Anime. Ironically "Record of Ragnarok" is a Seinen Anime, technically not even a Battle Shounen. For what it's worth it might as well be Battle Shounen Boner Material just for the fact it quite literally tries hard to draw in such viewers.

You did nothing of that, you claimed Naruto is deep and has substance (whatever this means in your school of thought)...and that's hilarious.


Of course you will ignore what I wrote or pretend to "idk what ur trying to say". No point of repeating the whole thing for the N-th time.


Said the person who accused us of not understanding properly mainstream blockbusters.

No point of repeating the whole thing for the N-th time.

Dude, you are so lost.

"For decades" I heavily doubt that.

The "community" is a group of individuals. Many of those individuals have differing and contradicting opinions about literally anything. The "community" can't and isn't some sort of official authority.

Thing is I have watched some of those you listed and their "substance" was "putrid water", not to mention 99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations.

FMA:B, Soul Eater and Full Metal Panic (which is not battle shounen as mentioned above) were even fun...still quite shallow.

@alshu


are you trolling? lmfao. its so obvious you know you're just saying bullshit at this point

@Kenzolo-folk
I actually think you are unable to understand the basics of his perspective and only consider him trolling for this reason.
He's just trolling a little ... provoking would be more correct. He doesn't started spouting bullshit either, but he sticks to his world view since the beginning (very obvious if you compare his posts) in a serious way.
But I would agree that he is trying to convince others (like you) half-heartedly and is already satisfied if only some will understand him.

"I mentioned this before, teens love edgy stuff, this is why we are getting is a lot in shounen and shoujo." -
>He gave a lazy but direct answer.

"Skill issue?"
>He is annoyed with you don't getting his points and provokes you. So yes ... he's trolling a little.

"Naaah. man. I will say for example Eren, you will ask for even more derails ect to infinity.
You know perfectly well what I am talking, don't pretend..."
>He's being lazy again and maybe overestimating you. You probably just associate edgy with provocative and indecent, like most younger people (myself included). But it also has been used as trendy/fashionable, eccentric (like Avant Garde) or jittery. So it is easily applied to many things.

"Yes but:
1. It's a battle shounen.
2. It demonstrates how edgy battle shounen characters are written."
"Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it."
"Not "deepest", but you said we aren't "undersetting" how deep those are...but actually we are.
Some show simply going dark is not that big of achievement - you need it to execute it skilfully. Naruto screaming his emotions in the face of the viewer is kind of blunt."
>He's answering very direct and honest.
>Although he reinstates his low opinion of Naruto with a very stereotypical and simplistic explanation.

"What substance means to you (a rhetorical question)? Repeating some obvious stuff like "Have more friends and allies!" isn't, because we are talking teens here, not kindergarteners. They already know that."
>He does not mean objective substance. He does not mean things that he can do something with. He does not mean the average opinion about how much substance something has. He weights this average by regarding opinions as more valuable that do not change or only arise in the course of growing up - one of the natural interpretations that can be associated with this word (since most people consider their former self as dumb/inexperienced and therefore worth less).
>He states that he thinks to understand how you use the word substance and thinks it's less sensible than his usage in this context. (Spoiler: I actually agree with him. Stating that something has substance because it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons [like you] is a nothing-burger.)

Do you have proof of this claim?

And even if we assume the majority does think like that, trying to use it as an argument will just be the ad populum fallacy.

@DigiCat How do you come to that conclusion?
I just see him saying that he doesn't know one of them and that X is not analysed in depth here [in Battle Shounen], an impression he might have gained by actually having watched several instead of judging the cover. Maybe I'm missing something though.

@DigiCat not disagreeing with you there but typically the non shounen fan is looking to talk about other anime with the other person but when their recommendation is dismissed so quickly it leads to a biased dislike of that genre. Again, I don't think its one particular reason, it has to do with multiple factors and being that the genre is so huge and defended so vehemently makes it easy for people to get turned off. From the outside, it tends to look like a cult like behavior even though it's not the intention of the fanbase overall.

@ColourWheel A while ago I decided to watch Hell's Paradise, that had some flash backs too, but what was really dumb is that the villains spent half the fight giving a step by step tutorial to the heroes on how to use magic to beat them.

@ShinyLotus

"Stating that something has substance because it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons [like you] is a nothing-burger.)"

>And stating it doesnt exist because it doesnt particularly resonate with you or its "edgy" makes any more sense? What.

""Have more friends and allies!" A completely meaningless point. I specifically gave examples of animes with themes that don't even cross that threshold. But of course he chose to ignore that. Saying its "edgy" and "shallow" with no specific explanation is not an argument, hardly even a response.


" "Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it.""
>
Okay so what is your definition of meaningful? How can something be meaningful by your standards?
Just looking it up, here it is: Definition of meaningful: "having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose." "communicating something that is not directly expressed."
My examples fit these.

@Kenzolo-folk
[Sorry for potential bad grammar ... was to lazy to rewrite it with an online translator]

"And stating it doesnt exist because it doesnt particularly resonate with you or its "edgy" makes any more sense? What."
First of all (so there is no misunterstanding): Not his explanations or opinions are better. The thing he tries to argue about has more potential than the thing you try to argue about (the different thing is btw how you both use the word substance/meaning not like the other one).

And yes: That does make more sense based on this (if your goal is to fire up and resolve discussions). Nobody here is really arguing if something has substance/meaning based on ~it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons~ but discussions/disputes only arise because people use different interpretations. Why?: Because no person with common sense would try to refute the claim based on how you use of the word in most contexts.
Thats why almost all of my first posts were about interpretations of substance/meaning (in an subjective, objective, objective based on subjective way) or about formulating it as relative/absolute ... to clear up whats the reason why most of you argue without reaching some common ground instead of doing the simple thing of just agreeing with the subtext of your original topic.

""Have more friends and allies!" A completely meaningless point. I specifically gave examples of animes with themes that don't even cross that threshold. But of course he chose to ignore that."
I believe that he believes your examples were of no more value than 'have more friends and allies'. He likely thinks all of these themes content/presentation is something mostly children/teens would find interesting or intriguing and since he weighs the opinions by age/matureness regarding the value of somethings meaning/substance it does not change anything for him.

"Saying its "edgy" and "shallow" with no specific explanation is not an argument, hardly even a response." -
Thats indeed him standing still and rewording his opinion. Though he combined 'edgy' with the taste of teens so at this point it became more obvious what he is about.
There is also little need for him to argue since he is just blocking you off whilst he believes you are not understanding his prior position. He does not want to argue about things that are leading him further away but also isn't very interested in you understanding his prior positions.
So he is just stubbornly answering so it doesn't seem like he fled/gave up on his standpoint.

@ShinyLotus



This line


Considering he said he watched some of the ones i listed, and only 2 of those listed have the roots he claims 99% have, and one of those is the one he hasn't watched, i can only assume he's judging them before actually giving any attention to the story

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).

@ShinyLotus

"I believe that he believes your examples were of no more value than 'have more friends and allies'. He likely thinks all of these themes content/presentation is something mostly children/teens would find interesting or intriguing and since he weighs the opinions by age/matureness regarding the value of somethings meaning/substance it does not change anything for him."

Like all of his points, thats completely subjective. This does not prove that the series I listed have no meaning. And adults are notorious shounen jump fans. Believe it or not but even themes as basic as "never give up" "dont abandon your friends" and "enjoy the simple things in life" still resonate a lot with adults, if not, more.