| Yep, I completely agree. “Boring” is purely subjective, and so is “entertaining.” I have yet to come across anything that is “objectively boring.” I have seen instances when people say things like “X show is objectively boring” as a sort of banter, or a way to poke fun at friends or something, and that’s completely understandable to me. I’m pretty sure the only people who unironically believe that “objectively boring” makes sense, are narcissists/egomaniacs and those who don’t know what “objective” and “subjective” mean. |
Apolygon2 said: bruh, it's ex arm. any sane person who looks at that show would say the same even though by definition it is not FACT, it basically is. You can stay with the already established definitions instead of pretending they mean something else. A fact is a fact. If it's not a fact then it's not a fact. It cannot "basically" be a fact. Some things are either black OR white and you cannot call them what they are not because to you it basically can. At least agree to say that what you're saying is wrong instead of calling other people weirdo because they correctly use the words that you don't. |
Apolygon2 said: It is completely valid criticism. Maybe it isn't constructive criticism, but just because you find it hard to relate to it doesn't invalidate what the author really felt.I'm not saying people shouldn't say boring. I'm saying boring is on the same level as "i don't like it" it's not valid criticism that can be used against the show in arguments or reviews, not without getting into why X and Y negative traits make it boring. that's my point, not that people can't call shows boring. |
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4esthetics said: Yep, I completely agree. “Boring” is purely subjective, and so is “entertaining.” I have yet to come across anything that is “objectively boring.” I have seen instances when people say things like “X show is objectively boring” as a sort of banter, or a way to poke fun at friends or something, and that’s completely understandable to me. I’m pretty sure the only people who unironically believe that “objectively boring” makes sense, are narcissists/egomaniacs and those who don’t know what “objective” and “subjective” mean. well at least some people get what I'm saying everyone is just trying to argue about how everything is subjective, which isn't wrong. but for some reason half the people here don't think something like "animation" is less subjective to analyze or talk about, compared to "boringness" which is purely subjective. |
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KryzakamiHrybami said: Apolygon2 said: bruh, it's ex arm. any sane person who looks at that show would say the same even though by definition it is not FACT, it basically is. You can stay with the already established definitions instead of pretending they mean something else. A fact is a fact. If it's not a fact then it's not a fact. It cannot "basically" be a fact. Some things are either black OR white and you cannot call them what they are not because to you it basically can. At least agree to say that what you're saying is wrong instead of calling other people weirdo because they correctly use the words that you don't. Ok I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's a fact. I'm saying it's close enough that I will talk about it as if it is a fact. LIKE HOW EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING DOES THE SAME. see that's also not a fact, because some people don't do the same. but I said it as if it was, because it's close enough to being fact, that I will say it as if it actually is. people do this all the time. it is more than normal. it's something that most people do multiple times during every conversation. |
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Apolygon2 said: You're conflating two usages of a word into something that makes no sense if you think about it. Impartiality, or being "not biased", requires that there are two or more sides with a factual center. In that case, you could be more biased toward one side, or less biased toward the center. But you said yourself that "everything... about fiction is subjective", so the center itself in this context is "biased" -- or subjective. So what does "less subjective" look like? Elaborating your opinion more makes it more factual and less of an opinion?katsucats said: ALL criticism is subjective. I don't know why anime fans have such a problem with this concept. Your problem is that it doesn't by itself explain why it's boring, but explaining it doesn't make it not subjective. If you think there's an objective scientifically measurable metric for "poor pacing", then you're free to propose what that might be and possibly win a Nobel Prize for proving the existence of idealism. But until then, you just haven't really thought this through. everything when talking about fiction is subjective, but some things are less subjective than others. being objective here, means having 0 bias. which is impossible. but you can always be less biased. it's a never ending path that you can always go further in, but you will never be able to reach actual objectivity. No, it does not. |
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Apolygon2 said: MizunoWaveRider said: Did you even read what I wrote? I literally said that I did NOT say that all boredom comes from pacing, and now you say "not all boredom comes from poor pacing". I said the reverse, that all "poor pacing" criticism comes from boredom. If people are entertained, then they will never say the pacing is poor, even if it's on the slower or faster side. do you really not see the problem with what you are saying? slow-poor pacing is bad, because it wastes time or has filler. OF COURSE PEOPLE WILL COMPLAIN IF THEY ARE BORED!!! but that's not always the case. as an example, I can recognize that my hero academia has poor pacing with how many flashbacks, long unwanted explanations and sometime even filler it has. but I still really enjoy it. and if you mean "not one person, but the general public" then REALLY??! listen, saying a negative factor that makes shows boring, is recognizable because people feel bored and notice it, is not as good of an argument that you think it is. that is obvious!!! I'm saying, the subjectivity of poor pacing is different, because poor pacing comes from critical thinking, which is like everything else partly subjective. but "boredom" alone, can come from a completely personal and feeling based thing like not liking the genre. they aren't the same. you say you know that, but your argument doesn't make sense when you take this into account. just please, at least try and understand where I'm coming from. "because poor pacing comes from critical thinking" Not always, most people just hammer it out whenever they are bored, or they go by ad populum like sheep saying "I wasn't bored but most people were and thus I say it has poor pacing". The best way to go about it is to say the pacing is either on the slower or on the faster side, which can be a somewhat objective statement since it's based on comparative evaluation between shows. Then you can add that you were bored or not, which would imply that you thought the pacing was poor. Way less pretentious than saying "poor pacing" and thus claiming authority on how pacing is supposed to be. |
katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: It is completely valid criticism. Maybe it isn't constructive criticism, but just because you find it hard to relate to it doesn't invalidate what the author really felt.I'm not saying people shouldn't say boring. I'm saying boring is on the same level as "i don't like it" it's not valid criticism that can be used against the show in arguments or reviews, not without getting into why X and Y negative traits make it boring. that's my point, not that people can't call shows boring. do you think "i don't like it" is criticism then? because the reason I said "boring" is not criticism, is because I don't consider something that is purely, 100% based on personal taste to be criticism. like If someone says, I don't like X. I'm not going to think they criticized X. to me boring is the exact same, because it just as subjective as saying "I don't like it" I feel like I need to say this to everyone but, I know, every complaint is subjective. but clearly I don't like it, is a lot more of a subjective term, than the animation is bad. BOTH ARE STILL SUBJECTIVE. it's just that one is pure subjectivity, and the other is not. |
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Apolygon2 said: This is just a sorry attempt at an appeal for popularity, while falsifying yourself as an authority figure by saying that because "every single human" that you know hates Ex Arm, it becomes "as if it is a fact".KryzakamiHrybami said: You can stay with the already established definitions instead of pretending they mean something else. A fact is a fact. If it's not a fact then it's not a fact. It cannot "basically" be a fact. Some things are either black OR white and you cannot call them what they are not because to you it basically can. At least agree to say that what you're saying is wrong instead of calling other people weirdo because they correctly use the words that you don't. Ok I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's a fact. I'm saying it's close enough that I will talk about it as if it is a fact. LIKE HOW EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING DOES THE SAME. see that's also not a fact, because some people don't do the same. but I said it as if it was, because it's close enough to being fact, that I will say it as if it actually is. people do this all the time. it is more than normal. it's something that most people do multiple times during every conversation. It does not. That's not how facts work. The Earth was not flat at any point in history, nor did Zeus actually exist, just because "everyone" believed it. It sucks at the moment of realization that you and your culture isn't at the center of the world, but you should really get over it sooner rather than later. |
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Apolygon2 said: Yes, by definition.katsucats said: It is completely valid criticism. Maybe it isn't constructive criticism, but just because you find it hard to relate to it doesn't invalidate what the author really felt. do you think "i don't like it" is criticism then? Apolygon2 said: Then you don't understand what criticism is, or you think criticism doesn't exist, because all opinions are subjective.because the reason I said "boring" is not criticism, is because I don't consider something that is purely, 100% based on personal taste to be criticism. Apolygon2 said: Okay, then you should really clarify for everyone what your non-standard definition of "criticism" is because the dictionary would disagree.like If someone says, I don't like X. I'm not going to think they criticized X. to me boring is the exact same, because it just as subjective as saying "I don't like it" Apolygon2 said: Wrong. lol. By what measure do you say something is more or less subjective? How does that even make any sense? Do you know of anything in nature, anything at all, that is not either real or not real? Like you see a rock and determine that it is only 75% real, and a tree that is only 46.5% real, and 53.5% made up?I feel like I need to say this to everyone but, I know, every complaint is subjective. but clearly I don't like it, is a lot more of a subjective term, than the animation is bad. BOTH ARE STILL SUBJECTIVE. it's just that one is pure subjectivity, and the other is not. |
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katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: This is just a sorry attempt at an appeal for popularity, while falsifying yourself as an authority figure by saying that because "every single human" that you know hates Ex Arm, it becomes "as if it is a fact".Ok I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's a fact. I'm saying it's close enough that I will talk about it as if it is a fact. LIKE HOW EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING DOES THE SAME. see that's also not a fact, because some people don't do the same. but I said it as if it was, because it's close enough to being fact, that I will say it as if it actually is. people do this all the time. it is more than normal. it's something that most people do multiple times during every conversation. It does not. That's not how facts work. The Earth was not flat at any point in history, nor did Zeus actually exist, just because "everyone" believed it. It sucks at the moment of realization that you and your culture isn't at the center of the world, but you should really get over it sooner rather than later. ok stop, this is just getting annoying now. let me be as clear as I can. I DON'T THINK EX ARM, IS OBJECTIVELY BAD. but I will say I think that, because it's close. that doesn't make it right. it's just something that people do. please stop. go talk to some people. people say it's 12 am, at 11:58 and say it as a fact. why? just because it's close enough that it doesn't matter. I KNOW IT IS WRONG. ok....? good. |
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Apolygon2 said: and I clearly explained that's more a you problem as there really isn't a wrong way to criticize something and that if you want people who give you simple answers to expand on it you should ask. It's honestly that simple. You're "tired" of that response, well don't respond to those types then or be the change you want to see. Again a thread complaining and giving a PSA isn't going to change how people in general act when they criticize things. If I just want to call a show boring, or say I don't like it that's valid cause it's my opinion. It's an anime community, most people here are mainly here to enjoy anime, not everyone enjoys writing essays so they give their simple feelings and move on. Droebie said: I think the problem here is your sensitivity to it rather than it actually being a problem. If someone feels a show is boring they don't owe more than that when they say it, they could expand on it if you were to ask. That said if that's how they feel it's not "wrong". You might have more of a case if we're talking actual reviewers however even then it's not for school, it doesn't need to follow a formula of just enough objectiveness. Some reviewers talk about a show very subjectively and based on their feelings and some break down the show into it's artistic elements and direction. Both ways and all in between are valid. I get that maybe this is a PSA and you're just wanting more people to expand on why things are boring but going by my many years in the community you're better off to just accept how things are and make friends with those who are more like minded. I guess it can't hurt to ask people to give their criticisms more thought but the average person is still going to call things boring when they're bored. I'm not saying people shouldn't say boring. I'm saying boring is on the same level as "i don't like it" it's not valid criticism that can be used against the show in arguments or reviews, not without getting into why X and Y negative traits make it boring. that's my point, not that people can't call shows boring. |
Apolygon2 said: So you're saying more people that you think (P.S. you haven't surveyed everyone in the world, have you?) believes in something approximates it as a fact? So if everyone believed the world was flat, then maybe it wasn't completely flat, but a quarter circle and "close enough"? LOL. Beliefs have no bearing on reality. Reality might cause more people to believe something or not, but believing in something no matter how hard you try doesn't make something real. This is the classic affirming the consequent logical fallacy.people say it's 12 am, at 11:58 and say it as a fact. why? just because it's close enough that it doesn't matter. No, I don't think you do. |
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katsucats said: Yes, by definition. Apolygon2 said: Then you don't understand what criticism is, or you think criticism doesn't exist, because all opinions are subjective.because the reason I said "boring" is not criticism, is because I don't consider something that is purely, 100% based on personal taste to be criticism. Apolygon2 said: Okay, then you should really clarify for everyone what your non-standard definition of "criticism" is because the dictionary would disagree.like If someone says, I don't like X. I'm not going to think they criticized X. to me boring is the exact same, because it just as subjective as saying "I don't like it" Apolygon2 said: Wrong. lol. By what measure do you say something is more or less subjective? How does that even make any sense? Do you know of anything in nature, anything at all, that is not either real or not real? Like you see a rock and determine that it is only 75% real, and a tree that is only 46.5% real, and 53.5% made up?I feel like I need to say this to everyone but, I know, every complaint is subjective. but clearly I don't like it, is a lot more of a subjective term, than the animation is bad. BOTH ARE STILL SUBJECTIVE. it's just that one is pure subjectivity, and the other is not. according to google: criticism the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes. "perceived faults or mistakes" this. I don't like it and it was boring on their own don't have that. without reason, by definition at least according to google, those 2 can not be criticism. "Wrong. lol. By what measure do you say something is more or less subjective? How does that even make any sense? Do you know of anything in nature, anything at all, that is not either real or not real? Like you see a rock and determine that it is only 75% real, and a tree that is only 46.5% real, and 53.5% made up?" it's not percentage based. people have different views on art and media, but in those views there are a lot of common ground. for example, we have a set of standard for what good animation looks like. which are slightly different from person to person, but generally we have all agreed on it. and since we humans made up animation, the rule of what looks good, is purely based on what we ourself have established. now, an objective answer will never exist, because the objectivity of art, is the combination of infinite subjectivities. because we made up the rules, and we don't agree on the rules. which means the objectivity in fiction, is not a 100% answer, it's a giant ball of different subjectivities. now, an opinion like "I don't like this" is completely outside those set of rules. it's not even trying. so it is 100% subjective. but something like, the animation sucks, can be close or far away from that giant mess of ideas that somehow generally has a standard. so judging animation, by it's very nature is more closer to objectivity than "liking something" it's not FACT because there is no right answer. but there is a "generally about right answer", which is closer to "answer" than a free for all like "liking something" or being "bored by something" |
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Apolygon2 said: If calling Ex-arm objectively bad makes me narcissistic, then I guess I am narcissistic. but I will bet you that if we went with this rule most people would be considered narcissists. i'm saying that the unwillingness to acknowledge other points of view is narcissistic, not thinking ex arm is bad. i don't know how you could possibly misconstrue my point this badly unless you're arguing in bad faith. |
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Apolygon2 said: "Boring" is perceived.katsucats said: Yes, by definition. Then you don't understand what criticism is, or you think criticism doesn't exist, because all opinions are subjective. Okay, then you should really clarify for everyone what your non-standard definition of "criticism" is because the dictionary would disagree. Wrong. lol. By what measure do you say something is more or less subjective? How does that even make any sense? Do you know of anything in nature, anything at all, that is not either real or not real? Like you see a rock and determine that it is only 75% real, and a tree that is only 46.5% real, and 53.5% made up? according to google: criticism the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes. "perceived faults or mistakes" this. I don't like it and it was boring on their own don't have that. without reason, by definition at least according to google, those 2 can not be criticism. Apolygon2 said: Again, popularity is not objective.people have different views on art and media, but in those views there are a lot of common ground. for example, we have a set of standard for what good animation looks like. which are slightly different from person to person, but generally we have all agreed on it. and since we humans made up animation, the rule of what looks good, is purely based on what we ourself have established. You want more articulation and detail, I get it. But then you're cloaking that up in this unnecessary post hoc justification to grant yourself the authority of it, and that's your mistake. It's not wrong to expect more subjective detail from a review as your opinion, but you want to assert your opinion as more than just an opinion. You could have just said "I like more nuanced, opinionated reviews", but then you feel like you'd sound like the guy who said "I don't like it", so you invent all this faulty reasoning to make yourself sound more important than you really are. If you had just said the former, than I would have agreed with you. It is also my opinion that reviews are better when their authors describe what exactly is it that they like or dislike. But nothing about that opinion is a fact, not even a little bit. |
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katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: So you're saying more people that you think (P.S. you haven't surveyed everyone in the world, have you?) believes in something approximates it as a fact? So if everyone believed the world was flat, then maybe it wasn't completely flat, but a quarter circle and "close enough"? LOL. Beliefs have no bearing on reality. Reality might cause more people to believe something or not, but believing in something no matter how hard you try doesn't make something real. This is the classic affirming the consequent logical fallacy.people say it's 12 am, at 11:58 and say it as a fact. why? just because it's close enough that it doesn't matter. No, I don't think you do. there is an example of this katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: So you're saying more people that you think (P.S. you haven't surveyed everyone in the world, have you?) believes in something approximates it as a fact? So if everyone believed the world was flat, then maybe it wasn't completely flat, but a quarter circle and "close enough"? LOL. Beliefs have no bearing on reality. Reality might cause more people to believe something or not, but believing in something no matter how hard you try doesn't make something real. This is the classic affirming the consequent logical fallacy.people say it's 12 am, at 11:58 and say it as a fact. why? just because it's close enough that it doesn't matter. No, I don't think you do. oh my god, I have never seen someone who want to argue this much just for the sake of arguing. You are arguing, about the fact that I said one of the lowest rated anime on mal is objectively bad, while knowing that it isn't technically true. have you actually never heard people use words like "facts" or "objectivity" on things that are extremely agreed on but aren't technically facts? that doesn't make it right, but it's something that people do. it's normal. have you interacted with other humans by any chance? since you're from mars apparently, let me explain, we humans do stupid crap all the time. even when we know it's wrong. it's just something that we do. |
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oyabuntaro said: Apolygon2 said: If calling Ex-arm objectively bad makes me narcissistic, then I guess I am narcissistic. but I will bet you that if we went with this rule most people would be considered narcissists. i'm saying that the unwillingness to acknowledge other points of view is narcissistic, not thinking ex arm is bad. i don't know how you could possibly misconstrue my point this badly unless you're arguing in bad faith. who says I don't acknowledge that even ex arm probably has a size of audience that likes even if they are very few of them. why do you think I don't? in that sentence, my use of the word "objective" is for making a stronger statement. me saying it is not me secretly hinting at me thinking people who disagree with it don't exist just because there very few of them. |
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katsucats said: "Boring" is perceived. prevised """""fault""""" stop cherry picking |
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Apolygon2 said: By the way, you sound exactly like those haughty academic Neo-classists guarding their imperial sanctioned positions at the Palace of Versaille at the turn of the 1900s, with their realistically proportioned romantic and baroque paintings like it's a "set of standards for what good art looks like", laughing at the Dadaists and modernists like Duchamp for displaying the infamous toilet as "art". In 1917, Duchamp successfully challenged what people at the time thought of as "good art" by creating something that fits into the definition. 20 years later modernism took over and the palace academy fell into irrelevance.we have a set of standard for what good animation looks like. Maybe 100 years ago, your opinions would have found a home... |
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| Last time I checked, "boring" is a fault. I'm not the one arguing for argument's sake. I'm telling you facts, and you're acting like a stick in the mud, contradicting and making these ridiculous semantic arguments like misinterpreting the definition of "perceived" and "fault". To call something "boring" requires perceiving it as being boring, and since "boring" has a negative connotation, it is also a "fault". What don't you understand?? Is English your second language? Are you over 18? |
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katsucats said: Again, popularity is not objective. no it isn't, I agree. I'm not saying it is. you're just refusing so hard to understand what I'm trying to say. alright let me explain it differently. here's how I see it: fact: something that based on evidence is true, and anyone who says other wise would be wrong pure opinion: something purely based on experience and emotion and, well, opinion and everything else: which is opinion, but with "logic" behind it. and fact, is pure logic. so if you insert logic, into opinion, the more logical you make it, the closer it is, to being factual. BUT IT CAN NOT EVER BE ACTUAL FACT. this is how I see it. Now, you keep saying, they are still not facts, and I agree. but opinions CAN be more logical. that is an undeniable truth. |
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Apolygon2 said: Roevhaal said: Okay so this thread is just so you can rant about people calling stuff you like boring whie being supportive of calling stuff you don't like boring. I for one really liked the pacing of Lain and it most definitly served a purpose. well that's fine, this is a discussion. I'm just saying, boring is too subjective. I have reasons for why I think the pacing is poor and serves no purpose, and you disagree for a reason that is probably good. this is normal, and a good discussion. but if I just said it was boring, then that wouldn't be an argument, it would be ONLY a personal preference. Your argument is stemming from personal preference to begin with and then you're presenting it like fact for some reason. Apolygon2 said: simply because the slowness of lain is NOT used for anything useful. you could argue that slightly longer shots, and gaps between dialogue helps the atmosphere, but even then lain certainly over does it. Here you first claim that it isn't used for anything useful, then you explain why it is useful but that it takes it too far. However you claim that your opinion about Lain taking it too far is objective fact with your use of words. Claiming that the pacing of Lain is objectively bad is extremely dumb, it's part of the identity of the show and it sets the tone and atmosphere very well. It has also proven itself effective among countless of people over the last 20+ years. Honestly complaining about the pacing of Lain being too slow is about as pointless as complaining about the pacing of Teekyuu being too hectic. It's just you complaining about the core of the series not being to your liking. Which is fine to explain why you don't like something but it's not a valid argument for the quality of the series. |
Apolygon2 said: So now your argument is something isn't what it actually is because you haven't heard it? Haha. The other poster was right, you're just arguing in bad faith like a petulant child desperate to be "right".have you actually never heard people use words like "facts" or "objectivity" on things that are extremely agreed on but aren't technically facts? that doesn't make it right, but it's something that people do. it's normal. have you interacted with other humans by any chance? since you're from mars apparently, let me explain, we humans do stupid crap all the time. even when we know it's wrong. it's just something that we do. Even if everyone you know believes in something, making it a "virtual" fact in your circle, doesn't make it an actual fact, and the fact that you can't tell that apart is actually hilarious. I guess what you're really saying is "these reviews aren't saying the things that me and my friends like, boo-hoo!". |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Last time I checked, "boring" is a fault. I'm not the one arguing for argument's sake. I'm telling you facts, and you're acting like a stick in the mud, contradicting and making these ridiculous semantic arguments like misinterpreting the definition of "perceived" and "fault". To call something "boring" requires perceiving it as being boring, and since "boring" has a negative connotation, it is also a "fault". What don't you understand?? Is English your second language? Are you over 18? boring is personal experience BORING DOESN'T EXIST IN THE SHOW it can't be a fault if it's not in the show. shows don't have boring in them. boredom is a feeling. that feeling can be FROM a fault withing the show, but the boredom itself IS NOT A GOD DAMN FAULT. |
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Apolygon2 said: Wrong again lol. Logic, as Aristotle puts it, begins with suppositions or premises, and deducts conclusions assuming the premise is true (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/). Empirical facts cannot be deduced from logic, it could only be experienced.and everything else: which is opinion, but with "logic" behind it. and fact, is pure logic. Apolygon2 said: You could form conclusions upon your 100% subjective premises, and even if your logic is correct, since your premises are 100% subjective, your conclusion remains 100% subjective, since anyone could challenge your premises and there would be no arbitration of facts.so if you insert logic, into opinion, the more logical you make it, the closer it is, to being factual. BUT IT CAN NOT EVER BE ACTUAL FACT. this is how I see it. Apolygon2 said: You are undeniably wrong, but this isn't getting anywhere. This topic is practically settled. Since you like popularity so much, nearly everyone in this thread sees the truth except you.Now, you keep saying, they are still not facts, and I agree. but opinions CAN be more logical. that is an undeniable truth. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Roevhaal said: Apolygon2 said: well that's fine, this is a discussion. I'm just saying, boring is too subjective. I have reasons for why I think the pacing is poor and serves no purpose, and you disagree for a reason that is probably good. this is normal, and a good discussion. but if I just said it was boring, then that wouldn't be an argument, it would be ONLY a personal preference. Your argument is stemming from personal preference to begin with and then you're presenting it like fact for some reason. Apolygon2 said: simply because the slowness of lain is NOT used for anything useful. you could argue that slightly longer shots, and gaps between dialogue helps the atmosphere, but even then lain certainly over does it. Here you first claim that it isn't used for anything useful, then you explain why it is useful but that it takes it too far. However you claim that your opinion about Lain taking it too far is objective fact with your use of words. Claiming that the pacing of Lain is objectively bad is extremely dumb, it's part of the identity of the show and it sets the tone and atmosphere very well. It has also proven itself effective among countless of people over the last 20+ years. Honestly complaining about the pacing of Lain being too slow is about as pointless as complaining about the pacing of Teekyuu being too hectic. It's just you complaining about the core of the series not being to your liking. Which is fine to explain why you don't like something but it's not a valid argument for the quality of the series. my opinion is not fact. but it has logic behind it. maybe the logic is flawed. maybe the logic is wrong. but it has logic behind it. now boring on the other hand, is purely based on my personal feeling while watching the show. it's not something that exits in the show, we can't talk about it, and I can't convince you it's boring if you didn't think it was. |
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Apolygon2 said: Slow pacing also doesn't "exist" in the show. "Slow" is also a feeling. katsucats said: Last time I checked, "boring" is a fault. I'm not the one arguing for argument's sake. I'm telling you facts, and you're acting like a stick in the mud, contradicting and making these ridiculous semantic arguments like misinterpreting the definition of "perceived" and "fault". To call something "boring" requires perceiving it as being boring, and since "boring" has a negative connotation, it is also a "fault". What don't you understand?? Is English your second language? Are you over 18? boring is personal experience BORING DOESN'T EXIST IN THE SHOW it can't be a fault if it's not in the show. shows don't have boring in them. boredom is a feeling. that feeling can be FROM a fault withing the show, but the boredom itself IS NOT A GOD DAMN FAULT. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| TIL some people don't know boring is subjective. Lmao. I call CGDCT boring and these same people would bash me in drones. No wonder. |
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katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: Wrong again lol. Logic, as Aristotle puts it, begins with suppositions or premises, and deducts conclusions assuming the premise is true (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/). Empirical facts cannot be deduced from logic, it could only be experienced.and everything else: which is opinion, but with "logic" behind it. and fact, is pure logic. Apolygon2 said: You could form conclusions upon your 100% subjective premises, and even if your logic is correct, since your premises are 100% subjective, your conclusion remains 100% subjective, since anyone could challenge your premises and there would be no arbitration of facts.so if you insert logic, into opinion, the more logical you make it, the closer it is, to being factual. BUT IT CAN NOT EVER BE ACTUAL FACT. this is how I see it. Apolygon2 said: You are undeniably wrong, but this isn't getting anywhere. This topic is practically settled. Since you like popularity so much, nearly everyone in this thread sees the truth except you.Now, you keep saying, they are still not facts, and I agree. but opinions CAN be more logical. that is an undeniable truth. I don't get you. I'm not disagreeing with your grand point. I know everything still remains subjective. I'm just saying, opinion, with logic behind it, is higher than opinion without logic behind it. they are both 100% subjective, but they aren't the same. and the more logical ones, are slightly closer to fact. you want it to completely factual? fine yes, they are the same. but the opinions with reasoning behind them are what create good discussion and are what people believe and expect. so in arguments and reviews, boring should not be used as a criticism. |
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katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: Slow pacing also doesn't "exist" in the show. "Slow" is also a feeling. boring is personal experience BORING DOESN'T EXIST IN THE SHOW it can't be a fault if it's not in the show. shows don't have boring in them. boredom is a feeling. that feeling can be FROM a fault withing the show, but the boredom itself IS NOT A GOD DAMN FAULT. ok this is just dumb. bored is something within you. slow is something within the show. so it counts as a fault with the show. the boring isn't inside the show, but the slow pacing is. since you love meanings so much, I don't see you are having hard time understanding why I don't think, boring is a fault withing the show, but slow pacing is. |
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Apolygon2 said: This is totally dumb. If you could describe to me how something could be "slow" in any context without someone judging it as such using comparisons to that person's past experiences outside of the object, such that properties within the thing itself is "slow" without being relative to anything external of it, then I'll literally Venmo you $100 bucks right now.katsucats said: Slow pacing also doesn't "exist" in the show. "Slow" is also a feeling. ok this is just dumb. bored is something within you. slow is something within the show. so it counts as a fault with the show. the boring isn't inside the show, but the slow pacing is. since you love meanings so much, I don't see you are having hard time understanding why I don't think, boring is a fault withing the show, but slow pacing is. Otherwise, please stop belaboring me with these low quality, low effort responses. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Apolygon2 said: This is totally dumb. If you could describe to me how something could be "slow" in any context without someone judging it as such using comparisons to that person's past experiences outside of the object, such that properties within the thing itself is "slow" without being relative to anything external of it, then I'll literally Venmo you $100 bucks right now.ok this is just dumb. bored is something within you. slow is something within the show. so it counts as a fault with the show. the boring isn't inside the show, but the slow pacing is. since you love meanings so much, I don't see you are having hard time understanding why I don't think, boring is a fault withing the show, but slow pacing is. Otherwise, please stop belaboring me with these low quality, low effort responses. slow pacing has never been a problem. bad pacing is. how can you recognize bad pacing? if the show is spending time on things that are not needed, without any reason, that's bad pacing, the slow way of it. filler? is unwanted and not needed, while also slowing the show down, so it's bad pacing flash backs or repeated scenes? same thing slow is actually a lot more based on context and comparison. like slow car will always be slow compared to other cars no matter who you ask of. but the boringness of the car will be completely different from person to person. |
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| Yeah it's not objective, but I'm still going to say boring if the show I'm talking about is boring for me. |
"Nobody could laugh at someone who's trying their hardest" -Machio- |
| "Boring" is 100% subjective, although that doesn't make it bad criticism IMO. After all, most critique/praise of any given work is inherently subjective IMO. |
Formerly known as Kuroni_Kuru |
| I mean, enjoyment is just PART of anime (still depends on each particular anime whether it was made to be enjoyed or not tbw). Take that off and you still have the writing, production, execution, substance, style, presentation etc to evaluate. |
| @katsucats i think what OP meant by "being less subjective" is that people need to be more open minded when they judge anime like instead of saying "X's pacing is bad bcoz it's slow" we ought to say "the slow pacing in X works very well due to its nature etc". Instead of being stuck in the restricted slow-moderate-fast spectrum people need to consider other factors as well. |
| Everything we say and perceive about a show is subjective lol. If I were to say, "Kirito is a horrible character and I don't like him." That's not an objective take despite how I feel about it. Calling a show "boring" imo is a good criticism because the show didn't keep the viewer engaged which I agree is subjective but everything is subjective lol |
| I mean, yeah. Perceiving something to be boring is subjective, a feeling. Boringness is a feeling and can not be objective, only subjective. Calling something boring is not even a criticism but rather it is an opinion. There is no objective value in calling something boring or debating someone else over whether or not your favorite show is boring. I can say that black men twerking is way more entertaining than Demon Slayer because Demon Slayer is boring and therefore its bad. That's not a valid reason for it to be bad, but saying something like "Demon Slayer's writing is honestly pretty generic and could be better" is a valid criticism because there is an actual criticism. Unfortunately though, the average MAL dweller will not understand this fact. |
| Not to add to the dogpile, but yeah, it's all subjective, and it doesn't have to be constructive to be criticism. An opinion is an opinion, whether it's to sway other people's minds or to just vent, it's all still valid as that's how someone feels. You're not looking at some research paper, you're reading someone share their viewpoint, even if they aren't being as convincing or eloquent they literally can't be wrong if they are solely just sharing their opinion (without all that "this is objective fact" bullshit), whether it applies to you or helps you doesn't really change anything. Also, if something is subjective but most people agree on a certain opinion on it, that's called intersubjective (same prefix as international), so Ex ARM being shit would be an intersubjective opinion. I don't actually know what the argument about Ex ARM is and I don't really care or want to join in, I just figured this would be helpful to know the term intersubjective, it's super helpful when discussing shit like this. More people should know what intersubjective is. |
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| U can always further elaborate if u want. Not a big deal. Anyways it not like other party is gone care if ur criticism is valid or subjective or whatever ever. U can call a show directly boring or u can say it pacing is very slow and character do nothing useful or meaningful through the show to keep ur interest or u can expand its meaning with unoriginal or repetation of plot point multiple times. Either way, a person who doesn't find the said show boring would not all that much care about it. I think people are too much overconfident of their capacity to understand other people. Maybe the said person want to just quantity all his feeling into one word and didn't want the hassle to elaborate more or maybe he is bad as explain his point of view or maybe it's a language barrier. That obviously doesn't mean he is just pretending to create a criticism. As such everything in the end is subjective because we are what makes it subjective. We can't eleminate us from the equation |
  Click for a anime mashup! Still not gone bandwagon u, keep crying. Here u are welcome to CRINGE at my EXISTENCE |
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| Boredom is really not a subjective criticism when the majority of the audience agrees that its boring. Its a fact. Unless you are one of those.... |
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Dulonkk said: I mean, yeah. Perceiving something to be boring is subjective, a feeling. Boringness is a feeling and can not be objective, only subjective. Calling something boring is not even a criticism but rather it is an opinion. There is no objective value in calling something boring or debating someone else over whether or not your favorite show is boring. I can say that black men twerking is way more entertaining than Demon Slayer because Demon Slayer is boring and therefore its bad. That's not a valid reason for it to be bad, but saying something like "Demon Slayer's writing is honestly pretty generic and could be better" is a valid criticism because there is an actual criticism. Unfortunately though, the average MAL dweller will not understand this fact. i am so glad there are at least some people that get what i was saying. |
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| Interesting, I see. My rebuttal is with film school tier shit. Watch all this and tell me it isn't boring. |
  โก Harder Daddy โก |
| I disagree. Anime should be entertaining, and if it isn't, there must be something wrong with it. Of course, you should be able to explain why you think it's boring. Steins;Gate doesn't really have a hook until episode 12 and Monster is definitely slow paced, much much slower than its source material |
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Apolygon2 said: Listen, a show being dragged on, having filler, or wasting time on stuff that aren't adding anything to the show, are all valid complaints. and those are elements that can lead to a show being boring to more people. but the boringness itself should never be the complaint. I'm so tired of people bashing on some of the best stories out there saying they are "bad" just because they don't like slow burners. I had a blast watching the first half of steins;gate. I thought every episode of monster was extremely entertaining. the slowness of these shows aren't a result of bad pacing, they are a result of them having a lot of build up. maybe for something like serial experiments lain you can argue that the slowness is just there for the sake of being slow, but even then, the problem you have should be with something like "poor pacing" not the boringness. Worst part is, there are people out there who genuinely think the people who say monster or steins;gate were never boring, are lying!!! boringness of a show is fully subjective. I thought demon slayer was boring!! Would I ever say that as a criticism? fuck no because I fully understand that, my lack of enjoyment has little to nothing to do with the show being good or bad. 100% agree Personally i only found the first 4-5 episodes of Steins;Gate to be a bit slow, but still overall preferred the first half as i really like how the story elements are introduced in it Monster just wasn't for me, i'm just not into that style of storytelling, but in no way does that make it a bad show, and i'd even recmmend it to people who do in fact like the slow burn style, 'cause the story does seem like it'll be interesting Demon Slayer i found the first half quite slow, but still enjoyeble, second half i binged like there was no tomorrow |
MarkVijet said: I disagree. Anime should be entertaining, and if it isn't, there must be something wrong with it. Of course, you should be able to explain why you think it's boring. Steins;Gate doesn't really have a hook until episode 12 and Monster is definitely slow paced, much much slower than its source material It has TIME TRAVEL, how does that not count as a hook... The first episode was garbage, it only will make sense 22 episodes in, at which point you won't remember what happened in episode 1, but starting from episode 2 it's good. |
| but criticism always puts their emotions in an opinion, and boring is one of them yeah sure, don't put too many subjective kinds of stuff in a criticism paragraph. |
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| "boring" is a fully subjective criticism. When has it ever been objective? I didn't find the beginning of Steins; Gate boring at all and found Clannad to be an absolute snoozefest contrary to most people. That's my own experience and my fully subjective opinion. |
  ๐ฎ๐๐๐๐๐พ๐๐๐, ๐๐๐ ๐ธ๐ถ๐'๐ ๐๐๐๐ ๐ป๐๐๐๐ถ๐๐น ๐๐พ๐๐ฝ๐๐๐ ๐ธ๐๐๐๐พ๐๐ ๐๐ฝ๐ ๐น๐๐๐ ๐ท๐๐ฝ๐พ๐๐น ๐๐๐. - ๐
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