Hige wo Soru. Soshite Joshikousei wo Hirou. Episode 6 Discussion

Phantasy_Starved said:
I never praised Saguchi as a person, I said he's got the potential to be a great character.

Phantasy_Starved said:
Y'all are gonna spur me to do a separate topic on this, I swear.

Oxalyc said:
Truly disgusting episode just like the rest of the anime probably why people enjoy it actually, I start to wonder how the author thought about all this, its really disturbing.
The scene with Yaguchi and Sayu is the worst thing, makes me want to puke.
Yoshida has been saving the anime, for once.

Phantasy_Starved said:
You all are coming at this like this a documentary.

Panzer92 said:
Yaguchi part was super painful to watch. But I'm happy how he didn't end up being some basic trash and showed to have some integrity next day.

skysurf said:


"integrity" = keeping quiet because it's also in his best interest to do so?

penrhos said:
So many repeated questions - due to excessive cut content in the adaptation.

So without trying to spoil anything.

They cut out the entire section where Yaguchi's personality was explained from the LN.

Asami described him as a "ManWhore" - the story goes, he had seven girlfriends on the go at once and then picked Sayu up. He was abusing her regularly as compensation for providing a roof over her head. When one of his girlfriends wanted to come round he threw Sayu out without a second thought as she was an inconvenience. The girlfriends found out he was cheating and they all dumped him, so he's currently single. He had recently moved into the area and was actively on the lookout for another "Runaway" as he could do what he pleased with them and they wouldn't object.

Basically he sees all women/girls as sex toys for him to enjoy - without having to put any effort in to keep them.

Yoshida's turning up at the flat - He got the initial text from Sayu and with the warning he'd had from Asami, texted her back to see if she was OK and got no reply. He started worrying and decided to leave work early to check if she was OK (which he never-ever does, I don't know if there will be any fallout from Gotou and Mishima seeing him rush out of the office). there's a whole section where he's working out what he should do as he's on the train back home that was skipped.

There was additional dialogue between Sayu and Yaguchi skipped and some added that simplified why she let him in and what happened before he pinned her down - but nothing major.

When Yoshida turns up and throws him out there was more cut including one of the neighbours coming out to see what the disturbance was.

The conversation in the office was adapted badly - she didn't laugh in the LN.

The bit at the end where Sayu and Asami look at the stars, in the LN Asami has collected her bike from the house and they cycled there - she tells Sayu you can walk somewhere but it's easier to cycle. inferring a journey is easier if you have assistance.

And Yoshida isn't a virgin, he's just been single for a long time (At least the time Gotou has known him at work, which is about 5 Years).

Panzer92 said:

Whether it's in his interest or not could be debated. Fact is, he kept his word and even ended up labeled as creep/pervert because of it. I sure as hell am not defending him as a whole, but that "next day" scene was really valuable imo.

skysurf said:
Now tell me, what would he "gain" that offsets this?

Panzer92 said:
But we also know she is good at acting.

Panzer92 said:


Nothing. But she has way more to lose: her secrets getting out, Yoshida being in trouble even bigger than Yaguchi and her getting forcibly sent home. Your usual anime villain would take his rape accusation (which is not that bad in Japan) just to get revenge on the girl who "dared" to defy him. That alone makes Yaguchi better character (not better person!) than most.

caliburn1337 said:
Best episode so far, this was fucked up.

Yaguchi is a piece of shit, but I like how straight forward and honest he is, pretty good villain.

aldostefanoni said:
Does anybody know if the manga's author, Shimesaba, or the series director, Manabu Kamikita, are women or not? I have a feeling that they are, just because it would be really messed up for a guy to be writing this story, but maybe thats just me hoping.

Amamonogatari said:


True. The show (or author, I'm unfamiliar with the novel so I can only speculate) does a really poor job of showcasing a new antagonist character. Are we supposed to hate him? But, he didn't tell Sayu's coworker about their previous transgressions. He promised her! So... he's a good guy! It just further cements that the characters are extremely poorly written. You can't just introduce a character that rapes your beloved female character, and then the next day try to humanize him.

Bear_from_cave said:

It just make him a horribly shitty person that also isn't a complete moron and only breaks his promises when he has something good to gain, like chance to rape Sayu. You mentioned integrity in previous post, but he already broke his promise before, when he promised Sayu that they will only talk in her place, which he broke immediately. Not harming himself for petty revenge is just basic common sense, how did you get integrity from it when he already lied in the same episode?

Nieznajomy43 said:


Manabu Kamikita is most likely a man, Manabu is a male name.
https://epublishing.nademoya.biz/japan/names_in_japan.php?nid=M#nav

I didn't found any info about Shimesaba gender only know that current illustrator of manga and LN (Imaru Adachi) is a female.

aldostefanoni said:
Thank you! I suspected as such for the director

skysurf said:


I guess a giveaway were the forced panty/bra shots in episode 3, even when the scene had already moved on to a serious conversation. It's like those directors can't resist a chance to insert fanservice even if that means ruining the scene mood smh (thankfully, this particular anime story doesn't provide many opportunities for such).

Are there even female anime directors in Japan? lol

skysurf said:


I guess a giveaway were the forced panty/bra shots in episode 3, even when the scene had already moved on to a serious conversation. It's like those directors can't resist a chance to insert fanservice even if that means ruining the scene mood smh (thankfully, this particular anime story doesn't provide many opportunities for such).

Are there even female anime directors in Japan? lol

Phantasy_Starved said:

@skysurf and others:

Also as a result, you're making a multitude of false assumptions about the author or his direction. Saguchi isn't redeemed at all by being portrayed as something other than a moustache-twirling villain. No reasonable person would "dismiss" his (understandable from his standpoint, but still detestable) sexual assault on Sayu.

Phantasy_Starved said:

And so what if he is shown later to grow as a person? Getting offended by the mere prospect of that is just silly... never become authors, you guys... I know you want a simpler world where good guys stay good and bad guys stay bad until their penance is good enough for you, and the lines are all clearly drawn to show that the author also is a good guy, but again, not realistic, not interesting.

Phantasy_Starved said:

Edit: I will add this, however, since I read the whole thread in an honest attempt to make sure I was clear on the points made there. Almost everyone said the episode was rushed, because it removed the internal dialogue on how she felt about Saguchi post-incident. I have to say that I had already inferred the important parts without needing the extra exposition in the manga. On a related note, most of the objections to Sayu's attitude in that thread comes from the fact that she apparently understands Saguchi better than many of the viewers do at this point in the story.

Bear_from_cave said:



First, concentrating on the fact that he kept the promise, and making the victim say that she's not mad anymore *is* redeeming him by downplaying the effect of his act and by concentrating on "he's not all that bad" part almost immediately after doing something horrible. That's how directing a story works - if you concentrate on showing good parts of evil character, you are inviting viewer to think "he's not as bad as I thought", and doing it almost immediately. Given that he belongs in jail for what he did in any civilized society, and while I get why this wasn't possible in the story, the lack of other, personal consequences (a slap? forced apology?) compared to gravity of his crime, and the same episode already showing his good part and talking normally with Sayu equals to stating his crime wasn't that bad by downplaying it's effect and consequences.

This isn't a documentary after all - the creator *choose* to have a rapist character *and* to start almost immediately showing he's not that bad of a rapist cause he keeps his promises (except the ones not to rape) without any consequence to his rape attempt and have his victim say she's not mad at him. That choice, same as so many other manga/anime make, of having attempted rapist and have him redeemed as OK guy without any real consequences, is making downplaying statement about rape and is therefore criticized by so many people.



Now you're the straw-manning one. I don't want world where bad guys stay bad, but if creator can't do a redemption properly they shouldn't do it at all or do all of their homework before to get it right, same as with any delicate theme. If you write about rape, sexism, racism, war crimes etc. you must be prepared for different, harsher sort of criticism then if you write a fluffy rom-com.
For example "A Silent Voice" is highly reviewed manga and movie about redemption, but a lot of work was put to make the story of redemption acceptable. The creator had lot of consultation with deaf people groups to ensure the portrayal of the victim was correct, and the bully MC had to come through a lot before being redeemed. My Hero Academia creator regretted making Bakugo say "kill yourself" to MC in the beginning of the story, because it didn't fit with Bakugo being essentially not so bad guy and actually heroic type.

You write "until their penance is good enough for you" - yes, if you write a villain into a show just to do something evil, and have them turn around to be a good guy soon without any penance, you deserve criticism for downplaying their evil act. If you want to have a story about morally gray character, without redemption arc or clear lines, there are ways to have such story without being offensive, but don't write them into a the story of their victims just to have them make up later. And don't start with them doing something evil and then mostly ignoring it as no big deal.
"Black Lagoon" has morally gray characters that are certainly no saints, like you wanted, but their conflicts are mainly with other grey or evil people, and if there's real moral conflict I didn't see them suddenly being buddy-buddy with people they harm.

Also, it's not that I want to cancel any show that fails the standard. For example "Here and There, Now and Then" is great show with stuff in last few episodes that makes my blood boil due to how much I hate what the creator makes characters say or do, but I'm still glad it exists, because it attempts themes that few other shows do and does some of them in a respectful way. The respect is criticall part - you say "not realistic, not interesting" but realism doesn't excuse creator if the message from the framing of what happens in their show ends up wrong, because framing is something they have full controle over.



I've read on High Seas the relevant part of the LN source. It didn't really make it better, and understanding your rapist doesn't usually makes the victim feel safe next to him just before victim knows good people, or "not mad at him, unless he tries it again". It's a case where the source of adaptation also shits the bed.

Panzer92 said:

It seems everyone jumps at "integrity" word but ignore word "some" right before it.
No, not hurting himself for petty revenge is not common sense to me, and especially not by anime standards. Calculation is strongly in his favour so being a shitty person he is, he should have gone for a revenge. Not to mention, he willingly took some beating and hit to his reputation, which he could've avoided too. Saying that he behaved like he did only because it's better for him that way is a viable explanation, but it's just an interpretation. To me it's way more probable that he actually felt bad after confrontation with Yoshida - and that'd be also much more fitting seeing how he clearly was made to be character who gets some kind of redemption later on (what we saw so doesn't qualify as one).
So yes, I stand by what I originally said that he has some integrity.

Oxalyc said:
Truly disgusting episode just like the rest of the anime probably why people enjoy it actually, I start to wonder how the author thought about all this, its really disturbing.
The scene with Yaguchi and Sayu is the worst thing, makes me want to puke.
Yoshida has been saving the anime, for once.

Oxalyc said:
Truly disgusting episode just like the rest of the anime probably why people enjoy it actually, I start to wonder how the author thought about all this, its really disturbing.
The scene with Yaguchi and Sayu is the worst thing, makes me want to puke.
Yoshida has been saving the anime, for once.

Rinrinka said:
Huh? I thought Yaguchi would be this series's main "antagonist" who is a 100% pure evil bastard trying to ruin both Sayu and Yoshida's life but lool turned out he is not a complete bastard and is someone who still keeps promises hihi.