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ssjokg said: Aure0lin said: how is shirou a self insert Dont you know? If more than one bitch likes you and you do nice things you are a self insert. Ready for a shocking revelation? I only hate Shirou now, instead of hating him with a fiery passion. I've no interest in play/reading a VN, but I still read various discussions around the interwebs which makes it a lot more clear why VNers view Shriou so differently. He has astronomical amount of of monologues and shit in the source material. In the adaptions, very little of that comes through. So I don't necessarily invalidate what I've said, so much as tweaking it some. It's true he's not generic. But he still is very bland. Frankly I think I would tolerate him more if there weren't romances. None of them feel natural at all. They all felt extremely forced. I still however say he is a self-insert. Maybe not a typical self-insert, but a self-insert all the same. He gets to bang a bunch of chicks that really could be considered far out of his league. Not only that, the reasons most of them gain interest in him are very flimsy. Additionally, if you claim the emotional connection route, I would put forth that is a huge conflict with what VNers claim makes him such a 'complex' character. Kirie is somewhat of a mirror to Shirou as this has been said, and is clearly illustrated in HF3. Even though Kirie actually got to the point of having a wife, it is obvious there was no real connection between them. Shirou should fall into the same category if he is this mentally broken person as Shiro-stans love to claim. All the more reason the romances utterly break story immersion. I don't remember if this was in FSN but I've seen that he even romances Saber which.. my god is beyond absurd. It doens't get any more masturbatory self-insert fantasy then that. In the end, maybe a VN read would help fill in all those details that would make Shiro more tolerable. I'm honestly not confident it would though. Because Shirou being a VN protag with a dozen or w/e routes greatly contributes to him being a bland character, to be able to exist in those different routes. The reason people like Archer but still hate Shirou like myself is because Archers experiences and past can be felt in his words, how he carries himself and thus what you would consider his personality. Shirou however always feels like just a dense generic hero in the animes. Shirou feels like a vehicle for the philosophical themes that Nasu puts forth, which makes him feel like he may as well be a cardboard cutout. Could probably keep going but I'm rambling a bit now and believe it or not I typically don't waste energy on things I dislike. I do get a bit uppity when a series feels massively overrated. |
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LuciferIAm said: ssjokg said: Dont you know? If more than one bitch likes you and you do nice things you are a self insert. Ready for a shocking revelation? I only hate Shirou now, instead of hating him with a fiery passion. I've no interest in play/reading a VN, but I still read various discussions around the interwebs which makes it a lot more clear why VNers view Shriou so differently. He has astronomical amount of of monologues and shit in the source material. In the adaptions, very little of that comes through. So I don't necessarily invalidate what I've said, so much as tweaking it some. It's true he's not generic. But he still is very bland. Frankly I think I would tolerate him more if there weren't romances. None of them feel natural at all. They all felt extremely forced. I still however say he is a self-insert. Maybe not a typical self-insert, but a self-insert all the same. He gets to bang a bunch of chicks that really could be considered far out of his league. Not only that, the reasons most of them gain interest in him are very flimsy. Additionally, if you claim the emotional connection route, I would put forth that is a huge conflict with what VNers claim makes him such a 'complex' character. Kirie is somewhat of a mirror to Shirou as this has been said, and is clearly illustrated in HF3. Even though Kirie actually got to the point of having a wife, it is obvious there was no real connection between them. Shirou should fall into the same category if he is this mentally broken person as Shiro-stans love to claim. All the more reason the romances utterly break story immersion. I don't remember if this was in FSN but I've seen that he even romances Saber which.. my god is beyond absurd. It doens't get any more masturbatory self-insert fantasy then that. In the end, maybe a VN read would help fill in all those details that would make Shiro more tolerable. I'm honestly not confident it would though. Because Shirou being a VN protag with a dozen or w/e routes greatly contributes to him being a bland character, to be able to exist in those different routes. The reason people like Archer but still hate Shirou like myself is because Archers experiences and past can be felt in his words, how he carries himself and thus what you would consider his personality. Shirou however always feels like just a dense generic hero in the animes. Shirou feels like a vehicle for the philosophical themes that Nasu puts forth, which makes him feel like he may as well be a cardboard cutout. Could probably keep going but I'm rambling a bit now and believe it or not I typically don't waste energy on things I dislike. I do get a bit uppity when a series feels massively overrated. In sort, chicks like him so he is bad because you can't fathom the idea of chicks liking him, so in turn he is a self insert. You don't really have anything more to say other than that. Archer acting depressed is no different from Shirou having ptsd attacks and having suicidal hero impulses. Both have a reason in their story for their actions. Of course Kirei who enjoys SUFFERING of others wouldn't make a real connection with his wife in their experimental marriage. But 1)that's on him, not her and 2)Shirou doesn't enjoy the suffering of others and didn't pick a girl as an EXPERIMENT. Might as well criticize Shirou for not becoming a priest just because Kirei became one to find answers. |
| can somebody explain what's with the part at the end with shirou and sakura taking a step onto the dirt? |
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ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: Ready for a shocking revelation? I only hate Shirou now, instead of hating him with a fiery passion. I've no interest in play/reading a VN, but I still read various discussions around the interwebs which makes it a lot more clear why VNers view Shriou so differently. He has astronomical amount of of monologues and shit in the source material. In the adaptions, very little of that comes through. So I don't necessarily invalidate what I've said, so much as tweaking it some. It's true he's not generic. But he still is very bland. Frankly I think I would tolerate him more if there weren't romances. None of them feel natural at all. They all felt extremely forced. I still however say he is a self-insert. Maybe not a typical self-insert, but a self-insert all the same. He gets to bang a bunch of chicks that really could be considered far out of his league. Not only that, the reasons most of them gain interest in him are very flimsy. Additionally, if you claim the emotional connection route, I would put forth that is a huge conflict with what VNers claim makes him such a 'complex' character. Kirie is somewhat of a mirror to Shirou as this has been said, and is clearly illustrated in HF3. Even though Kirie actually got to the point of having a wife, it is obvious there was no real connection between them. Shirou should fall into the same category if he is this mentally broken person as Shiro-stans love to claim. All the more reason the romances utterly break story immersion. I don't remember if this was in FSN but I've seen that he even romances Saber which.. my god is beyond absurd. It doens't get any more masturbatory self-insert fantasy then that. In the end, maybe a VN read would help fill in all those details that would make Shiro more tolerable. I'm honestly not confident it would though. Because Shirou being a VN protag with a dozen or w/e routes greatly contributes to him being a bland character, to be able to exist in those different routes. The reason people like Archer but still hate Shirou like myself is because Archers experiences and past can be felt in his words, how he carries himself and thus what you would consider his personality. Shirou however always feels like just a dense generic hero in the animes. Shirou feels like a vehicle for the philosophical themes that Nasu puts forth, which makes him feel like he may as well be a cardboard cutout. Could probably keep going but I'm rambling a bit now and believe it or not I typically don't waste energy on things I dislike. I do get a bit uppity when a series feels massively overrated. In sort, chicks like him so he is bad because you can't fathom the idea of chicks liking him, so in turn he is a self insert. You don't really have anything more to say other than that. Archer acting depressed is no different from Shirou having ptsd attacks and having suicidal hero impulses. Both have a reason in their story for their actions. Of course Kirei who enjoys SUFFERING of others wouldn't make a real connection with his wife in their experimental marriage. But 1)that's on him, not her and 2)Shirou doesn't enjoy the suffering of others and didn't pick a girl as an EXPERIMENT. Might as well criticize Shirou for not becoming a priest just because Kirei became one to find answers. Bro, you can just admit you liked the H-scenes, no need to keep pretending its so deep. My point about Kirei was irrelevant to his actual feelings. Pretty sure you said yourself Shirou in H3 is presented as the inverse of Kirei. And i KNOW you've said Shirou is a mentally broken person. Yet he can make emotional connections with the babes around him enough to get laid? C'mon son. |
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LuciferIAm said: I wonder why I keep doing this when I know and you clearly show that you never had the intention of a honest argument.ssjokg said: In sort, chicks like him so he is bad because you can't fathom the idea of chicks liking him, so in turn he is a self insert. You don't really have anything more to say other than that. Archer acting depressed is no different from Shirou having ptsd attacks and having suicidal hero impulses. Both have a reason in their story for their actions. Of course Kirei who enjoys SUFFERING of others wouldn't make a real connection with his wife in their experimental marriage. But 1)that's on him, not her and 2)Shirou doesn't enjoy the suffering of others and didn't pick a girl as an EXPERIMENT. Might as well criticize Shirou for not becoming a priest just because Kirei became one to find answers. Bro, you can just admit you liked the H-scenes, no need to keep pretending its so deep. My point about Kirei was irrelevant to his actual feelings. Pretty sure you said yourself Shirou in H3 is presented as the inverse of Kirei. And i KNOW you've said Shirou is a mentally broken person. Yet he can make emotional connections with the babes around him enough to get laid? C'mon son. |
LuciferIAm said: Opinion rejected.Bro, you can just admit you liked the H-scenes, |
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LuciferIAm said: you might be able to sell me on saber or even rin romances being flimsy but how does sakura not make sense. considering how she spends all her free time with shirou and is otherwise reclusive to the rest of the world, it would be weird if she doesn't crush on him. also consider how shirou is basically a pillar of his community who spends all his free time helping people whether it be various school clubs or people at his part time jobs yet expects nothing in return. the self insert image kind of falls apart when you consider how this compares to traditional anime self inserts lolFrankly I think I would tolerate him more if there weren't romances. None of them feel natural at all. They all felt extremely forced. I still however say he is a self-insert. Maybe not a typical self-insert, but a self-insert all the same. He gets to bang a bunch of chicks that really could be considered far out of his league. Not only that, the reasons most of them gain interest in him are very flimsy. Additionally, if you claim the emotional connection route, I would put forth that is a huge conflict with what VNers claim makes him such a 'complex' character. Kirie is somewhat of a mirror to Shirou as this has been said, and is clearly illustrated in HF3. Even though Kirie actually got to the point of having a wife, it is obvious there was no real connection between them. Shirou should fall into the same category if he is this mentally broken person as Shiro-stans love to claim. All the more reason the romances utterly break story immersion. I don't remember if this was in FSN but I've seen that he even romances Saber which.. my god is beyond absurd. It doens't get any more masturbatory self-insert fantasy then that. |
Aure0linApr 10, 2021 10:19 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Aure0lin said: Come on now. If you read his other posts you would know that he considers that to be a self insert. Shirou is a "goody two shoes", the end.LuciferIAm said: also consider how shirou is basically a pillar of his community who spends all his free time helping people whether it be various school clubs or people at his part time jobs yet expects nothing in return.Frankly I think I would tolerate him more if there weren't romances. None of them feel natural at all. They all felt extremely forced. I still however say he is a self-insert. Maybe not a typical self-insert, but a self-insert all the same. He gets to bang a bunch of chicks that really could be considered far out of his league. Not only that, the reasons most of them gain interest in him are very flimsy. Additionally, if you claim the emotional connection route, I would put forth that is a huge conflict with what VNers claim makes him such a 'complex' character. Kirie is somewhat of a mirror to Shirou as this has been said, and is clearly illustrated in HF3. Even though Kirie actually got to the point of having a wife, it is obvious there was no real connection between them. Shirou should fall into the same category if he is this mentally broken person as Shiro-stans love to claim. All the more reason the romances utterly break story immersion. I don't remember if this was in FSN but I've seen that he even romances Saber which.. my god is beyond absurd. It doens't get any more masturbatory self-insert fantasy then that. |
| The only thing I can say is that: Thank you ufotable and thank you Fate for existing, I'm alive to tell. |
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LuciferIAm said: Some people don't even like his relationship with Sakura because it makes him go against what he was for 2 routes. Or even Saber as well. I think I've already said in one reply that he provides a unique dynamic with the heroines that you can't really replicate with other characters and the relationship is just a way to vehicle to express the routes themes.ssjokg said: In sort, chicks like him so he is bad because you can't fathom the idea of chicks liking him, so in turn he is a self insert. You don't really have anything more to say other than that. Archer acting depressed is no different from Shirou having ptsd attacks and having suicidal hero impulses. Both have a reason in their story for their actions. Of course Kirei who enjoys SUFFERING of others wouldn't make a real connection with his wife in their experimental marriage. But 1)that's on him, not her and 2)Shirou doesn't enjoy the suffering of others and didn't pick a girl as an EXPERIMENT. Might as well criticize Shirou for not becoming a priest just because Kirei became one to find answers. Bro, you can just admit you liked the H-scenes, no need to keep pretending its so deep. My point about Kirei was irrelevant to his actual feelings. Pretty sure you said yourself Shirou in H3 is presented as the inverse of Kirei. And i KNOW you've said Shirou is a mentally broken person. Yet he can make emotional connections with the babes around him enough to get laid? C'mon son. |
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Aure0lin said: LuciferIAm said: you might be able to sell me on saber or even rin romances being flimsy but how does sakura not make sense. considering how she spends all her free time with shirou and is otherwise reclusive to the rest of the world, it would be weird if she doesn't crush on him. also consider how shirou is basically a pillar of his community who spends all his free time helping people whether it be various school clubs or people at his part time jobs yet expects nothing in return. the self insert image kind of falls apart when you consider how this compares to traditional anime self inserts lolFrankly I think I would tolerate him more if there weren't romances. None of them feel natural at all. They all felt extremely forced. I still however say he is a self-insert. Maybe not a typical self-insert, but a self-insert all the same. He gets to bang a bunch of chicks that really could be considered far out of his league. Not only that, the reasons most of them gain interest in him are very flimsy. Additionally, if you claim the emotional connection route, I would put forth that is a huge conflict with what VNers claim makes him such a 'complex' character. Kirie is somewhat of a mirror to Shirou as this has been said, and is clearly illustrated in HF3. Even though Kirie actually got to the point of having a wife, it is obvious there was no real connection between them. Shirou should fall into the same category if he is this mentally broken person as Shiro-stans love to claim. All the more reason the romances utterly break story immersion. I don't remember if this was in FSN but I've seen that he even romances Saber which.. my god is beyond absurd. It doens't get any more masturbatory self-insert fantasy then that. Sakura is certainly the most plausible, but I still have issues with it for various reasons. Let's just get this one out of the way; she's the pretty busty girl next door. She decides to persistently try to enter Shirous life because of his injury. If that doesn't scream self-insert fantasy, I don't know what does. This is already a well known meme, but at the end of the day it still annoys me. The reason she started to like him in the first place, the jumping. Just.. come on. There were so many other ways to start it. Maybe if he wasn't such a bitch most of the time, he could have stood up to Shinji when seeing Shinji verbally abuse her. That would have been 1000x more believable. Now yeah, they start to spend a lot of time together, okay. But part of the problem is as you learn more about Sakura.. it feels like her entire character is just meant to make you feel bad and pity her. It only gets worst and worst. And then Shirou won't even defend her? Wont even TRY to stop her ever returning home? Yet she loves this bland weak mfer? I'm sorry, I just can't get behind that. When she gains sentience as the whatchamacallit she lets our her feelings on how no one ever came to save her. Yet she fucked the one guy who had the greatest opportunity to fucking save her! And while we're at it, it's pretty fucked up Shinji banged her when its pretty god damn obvious she is seriously mentally fucked up. So yeah, self insert, otaku fantasy, whatever. I've seen lust worms explained, should I even bring up that weird ass fetish? Emblemz said: LuciferIAm said: Some people don't even like his relationship with Sakura because it makes him go against what he was for 2 routes. Or even Saber as well. I think I've already said in one reply that he provides a unique dynamic with the heroines that you can't really replicate with other characters and the relationship is just a way to vehicle to express the routes themes.Bro, you can just admit you liked the H-scenes, no need to keep pretending its so deep. My point about Kirei was irrelevant to his actual feelings. Pretty sure you said yourself Shirou in H3 is presented as the inverse of Kirei. And i KNOW you've said Shirou is a mentally broken person. Yet he can make emotional connections with the babes around him enough to get laid? C'mon son. The relationship being a literary device doesn't make it any more believable or less immune to criticism. |
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LuciferIAm said: I acknowledge that at the very beginning with "some people don't even like his relationship with Sakura." I'm saying having a unique response to each singular relationship in of itself proves he can't be a self insert. Being a device for the story means it cannot be replicated the same way if the narrative is also structured differently(which it is between the 3 routes). You say you can't buy Rin/Sakura falling for his High Jump antics but then what of Saber? She didn't immediately love him and even held him in low regard for half of her story. Her self reflection is what eventually made her appreciate him. It's a weak premise. A true case of self insert would've been something along the lines of all three girls going after him in one route and him successfully having them for people to project their inane fantasies onto.The relationship being a literary device doesn't make it any more believable or less immune to criticism. |
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LuciferIAm said: shirou was basically the one of the few people from the outside world that sakura was aware of since he used to hang out with shinji back in his archery club days. shirou also has a pretty good reputation as helpful guy who gets shit done even if he is a bit of a doormat. i dont think "self insert fantasy" applies to this any more than some call to adventure from any hero's journey ever especially when the hero is usually just some random schmuck. maybe you feel this way about calls to adventure, but the term does lose a bit of its meaning if it can be applied so broadlyLet's just get this one out of the way; she's the pretty busty girl next door. She decides to persistently try to enter Shirous life because of his injury. If that doesn't scream self-insert fantasy, I don't know what does. This is already a well known meme, but at the end of the day it still annoys me. The reason she started to like him in the first place, the jumping. Just.. come on. There were so many other ways to start it. well their relationship officially started as sakura being this annoying nosy sister of shirou's friend that kept showing up to one of the few people she was familiar with so there's thatMaybe if he wasn't such a bitch most of the time, he could have stood up to Shinji when seeing Shinji verbally abuse her. That would have been 1000x more believable. you mean like how he shoved shinji into the door when shinji tried to pick sakura up and then stood his ground to keep shinji from trying to bring sakura home after seeing his display of violence scare sakuraAnd then Shirou won't even defend her? what do you even mean by this. shirou isn't in a position to do much and he still does what he canWont even TRY to stop her ever returning home? well it's normally hard to keep someone from sneaking out unless you lock them in a room, and for some reason confining someone in a room against their will doesn't seem like a shirou thing to do. he had no reason to think sakura would try to stop zouken by herself.Yet she loves this bland weak mfer? you haven't offered much to explain how shirou is bland and im still unconvinced as to how he is weak. |
Aure0linApr 11, 2021 11:40 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Aure0lin said: LuciferIAm said: shirou was basically the one of the few people from the outside world that sakura was aware of since he used to hang out with shinji back in his archery club days. i dont think "self insert fantasy" applies to this any more than some call to adventure from any hero's journey ever especially when the hero is usually just some random schmuck. maybe you feel this way about calls to adventure, but the term does lose a bit of its meaning if it can be applied so broadlyLet's just get this one out of the way; she's the pretty busty girl next door. She decides to persistently try to enter Shirous life because of his injury. If that doesn't scream self-insert fantasy, I don't know what does. This is already a well known meme, but at the end of the day it still annoys me. The reason she started to like him in the first place, the jumping. Just.. come on. There were so many other ways to start it. well their relationship officially started as sakura being this annoying nosy sister of shirou's friend that kept showing up to one of the few people she was familiar with so there's thatMaybe if he wasn't such a bitch most of the time, he could have stood up to Shinji when seeing Shinji verbally abuse her. That would have been 1000x more believable. you mean like how he shoved shinji into the door when shinji tried to pick sakura up and then stood his ground to keep shinji from trying to bring sakura home after seeing his display of violence scare sakuraAnd then Shirou won't even defend her? what do you even mean by this. shirou isn't in a position to do much and he still does what he canWont even TRY to stop her ever returning home? well it's normally hard to keep someone from sneaking out unless you lock them in a room, and for some reason confining someone in a room against their will doesn't seem like a shirou thing to do. he had no reason to think sakura would try to stop zouken by herself.Yet she loves this bland weak mfer? you haven't offered much to explain how shirou is bland and im still unconvinced as to how he is weak. It'd be one thing if we were in a story without magic and heroic spirits. But we are. Shirou even purposefully turns a blind eye to the shadow flickers. He's weak until suddenly he doesn't need to be cuz plot. Maybe it's built up a lot better in the VNs, but its downright awful in the animes. Just can suddenly one-shot hercules. Shiro being bland.. there's never a real drive felt from him. Much of what he does is a reaction to something else or someone else doing something first. Whether it's just Rin talking his ear off or Shinji showing up at his door. I believe this is a strong reason people much prefer Kirei and Kiritsugu over him, and Archer even for that matter. Rin's confidence, attitude, pride and thus her personality is on display with how she moves from one point to another - the same applies for Kirei and Kiritsugu. It may even be accurate to say they move alongside the plot, whereas Shirou moves only at the plots behest. Which is one reason he feels so generic/bland to anime-onlys like myself. Yeah... maybe its shown more in the VN but especially with her showing up at his door. He's basically completely thrown off why she would insist helping. That implies they barely ever interacted in the club. He only gave in because one of his few actually concrete traits is being a total pushover by anyone, as part of his 'safe others to give myself happiness' mental state. Which you could then point out how that makes is lack of action towards Sakuras circumstances as they become painfully clear all the more annoying. In a sense he is finally given a chance to really save someone and just waits and waits and waits. |
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LuciferIAm said: well yeah that's a consistent flaw of shirou, he doesn't like to acknowledge harsh realities that require hard decisions. it was the same in ubw with regards to how his "save everyone" ideal would actually pan out in the real world. i still wouldn't call him weak since a major part of his arc in either story route is confronting that reality then doing something about it. in the case of sakura, his only real options at the moment were to kill her to thwart zouken's plan or try to keep her alive somehow so he can keep his girlfriend. as far as shirou saw, killing zouken might not have even been possible, i think you saw how cutting his head off works out. It'd be one thing if we were in a story without magic and heroic spirits. But we are. Shirou even purposefully turns a blind eye to the shadow flickers. He's weak until suddenly he doesn't need to be cuz plot. Maybe it's built up a lot better in the VNs, but its downright awful in the animes. Just can suddenly one-shot hercules. the visual novel keeps the same general power display but it is more blatant with its drawbacks. just by using the arm once, shirou pretty much loses the ability to form long term memories. after a few more uses, shirou starts losing losing his existing memories and swords begin to shred his body from the inside. not exactly a power fantasy, and i think it balances out with his sudden power up. also herc was weakened when he got absorbed by sakura, and he would've still killed shirou if not for herc stopping at the last second from seeing illya. i think that second part was still kept in the anime.Shiro being bland.. there's never a real drive felt from him. Much of what he does is a reaction to something else or someone else doing something first. Whether it's just Rin talking his ear off or Shinji showing up at his door. I believe this is a strong reason people much prefer Kirei and Kiritsugu over him, and Archer even for that matter. Rin's confidence, attitude, pride and thus her personality is on display with how she moves from one point to another - the same applies for Kirei and Kiritsugu. It may even be accurate to say they move alongside the plot, whereas Shirou moves only at the plots behest. Which is one reason he feels so generic/bland to anime-onlys like myself. shirou's whole self defined purpose is to be a hero for someone. he satisfies this need in the mundane world by giving much of his time towards helping school clubs or working part time. much of his early actions in the hgw involves patrolling the streets so he can save people from possible servant attacks before he gets caught up in someone else's plan. i think this was preserved in the first hf movie where he saves that one girl from rider and shinji.Yeah... maybe its shown more in the VN but especially with her showing up at his door. He's basically completely thrown off why she would insist helping. That implies they barely ever interacted in the club. He only gave in because one of his few actually concrete traits is being a total pushover by anyone, as part of his 'safe others to give myself happiness' mental state. the scenes where sakura meets shirou are entirely anime-original. in the visual novel, shirou mentions that shinji introduced sakura to shirou and the rest is left to imagination. i still wouldn't call him a total pushover since he's very willing to use violence against those who are presenting a threat to someone elseWhich you could then point out how that makes is lack of action towards Sakuras circumstances as they become painfully clear all the more annoying. In a sense he is finally given a chance to really save someone and just waits and waits and waits. shirou can't really do much besides try to keep shinji/zouken/assassin away and try to make sakura as comfortable as possible in the time he spends with her. he isn't able to use rule breaker to free sakura until he takes off the shroud covering his arm against berserker. |
Aure0linApr 12, 2021 1:01 AM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
LuciferIAm said: It'd be one thing if we were in a story without magic and heroic spirits. But we are. Shirou even purposefully turns a blind eye to the shadow flickers. He's weak until suddenly he doesn't need to be cuz plot. Maybe it's built up a lot better in the VNs, but its downright awful in the animes. Just can suddenly one-shot hercules. Turning a blind eye to the shadow because he realizes that his girlfriend is the shadow doest make him bland or generic or whatever you are trying to prove. What even is that trying to prove? Archer's arm literary carried him through that fight. Of course he will beat a nerfed Heracles when he is given the right weapon to do it. Utilizing your recourses doesnt make you generic or bland or a self insert. LuciferIAm said: Shiro being bland.. there's never a real drive felt from him. Much of what he does is a reaction to something else or someone else doing something first. Whether it's just Rin talking his ear off or Shinji showing up at his door. I believe this is a strong reason people much prefer Kirei and Kiritsugu over him, and Archer even for that matter. Rin's confidence, attitude, pride and thus her personality is on display with how she moves from one point to another - the same applies for Kirei and Kiritsugu. It may even be accurate to say they move alongside the plot, whereas Shirou moves only at the plots behest. Which is one reason he feels so generic/bland to anime-onlys like myself. You mean like when he decided to investigate the Temple, like when he took Sakura home against everyone's warning, like when he asked Ilya for an alliance on his own, decided to help Ilya on his own, come up with a plan for Saber Alter on his own, or when he figured out on his own how to save Sakura? And these are the big ones. Shirou is unaware of lots of things, of course he will react to new stuff happening in front of him. It seems like you have a book of "what makes a good character" in front of you and try hard to tick as many boxes as you can without the context. LuciferIAm said: Yeah... maybe its shown more in the VN but especially with her showing up at his door. He's basically completely thrown off why she would insist helping. That implies they barely ever interacted in the club. He only gave in because one of his few actually concrete traits is being a total pushover by anyone, as part of his 'safe others to give myself happiness' mental state. Which you could then point out how that makes is lack of action towards Sakuras circumstances as they become painfully clear all the more annoying. In a sense he is finally given a chance to really save someone and just waits and waits and waits. She was in middle school and he is in highschool. Not surprising that you didnt notice at all that Shirou barely knows her through Shinji. He is a pushover for letting a little girl do what she wants which is only a big bonus to him? Also, both him and his teacher agreed to it. It isnt like Shirou is just that one person that bows down to everyone's desires and whims. You also realize that Shirou cant do anything for Sakura when she keeps refusing that abuse is taking place? You basically want Shirou to start swinging at Shinji based on nothing but Shirou's guesses which would only bring trouble to him and most importantly Sakura. Can we agree that Shirou is at least smarter than you in this issue? Unless Sakura admits to the abuse then nobody, including Taiga a teacher who knows that it IS happening, can do anything. Good thing that Shirou didnt beat up Shinji when he mistook Sakura's command seals for a bruise at the start of the story. But he still went looking for Shinji when he saw clear signs of abuse on her cheek. He changed route midway when he saw Rin to ask her for advice on the issue, which was even better. As for when Sakura gets weaker. What is he supposed to do to save her?You would be correct if he had a way to help before she went Dark. Nobody had any idea what todo. The VN has nothing to do with this. You are just desperate to bring down a story and a character that seem overrated to you. |
Aure0lin said: And he also doesnt know that Rule Breaker would work since nobody has explained Sakura's circumstances to him yet.he isn't able to use rule breaker to free sakura until he takes off the shroud covering his arm against berserker. |
ssjokgApr 12, 2021 10:10 AM
ssjokg said: shirou could probably figure out that sakura is influenced by something magical and guess that rule breaker might break the influence, but he has no way of knowing whether he'd even be lucid enough to project it if he tries to use archer's armAure0lin said: And he also doesnt know that Rule Breaker would work since nobody has explained Sakura's circumstances to him yet.he isn't able to use rule breaker to free sakura until he takes off the shroud covering his arm against berserker. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Aure0lin said: ssjokg said: shirou could probably figure out that sakura is influenced by something magical and guess that rule breaker might break the influence, but he has no way of knowing whether he'd even be lucid enough to project it if he tries to use archer's armAnd he also doesnt know that Rule Breaker would work since nobody has explained Sakura's circumstances to him yet. Yes but he knows that RB specifically works a lot against Master-Servant contracts. We also have to question the level of his understanding about magical contracts and other magecraft that RB can nullify. And in any case I try to make a case with what the movie has presented. |
you might be able to sell me on saber or even rin romances being flimsy I thought the romance was great given how similar saber and shirou were as people, shirou sees his self hypocrisy in saying saber to let it go while not giving up his dangerous ideals Rin had great chemistry with shirou to be honest |
| I might be a little bit angry since i think they only had one job: not screwing up the finale. Regardless of the actions sequences, regardless of the pacing that could very well be a problem (and it was handles pretty well i could say). They only had to copy paste the finale, but no, they had to make it incomprehensible, they had to give Touko a few frames, not explain one little bit about the aftermath and they didnt even use New Dawn to convey the relief that all the grief had ended, instead they reused haru wa yuku that i love, like i love aimer but i didnt' seem fitting to me. Raw numbers 7/10 i can't bring myself to hate it, it's my favorite route, animated. The actions sequences were awesome, it didn't feel rushed like the second film but im quite a bit disappointed. |
FateMadMan said: it's not the chemistry so much as it is the background. shirou and saber suddenly meet then they somehow fall into lifelong love in less than two weeks after meeting. rin and shirou were familiar with each other but they didn't really interact before the grail war began. you might be able to sell me on saber or even rin romances being flimsy I thought the romance was great given how similar saber and shirou were as people, shirou sees his self hypocrisy in saying saber to let it go while not giving up his dangerous ideals Rin had great chemistry with shirou to be honest |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
This, this is exactly what i meant, they managed to fail the ending. It felt so lacking compared to the novel. |
| Not gonna lie I was so confused as to what exactly was going on. Probably my own fault for not going through the visual novels first, because just about everything went over my head. If you ask me to sum up the third act of this third movie, I’ll just say “stuff, happens??” Anyway looks like everybody is happy so I guess all that matters. But still, if you ask me, that for convoluted real fast. Presage flower is easily my favourite of the 3 because well, it’s the most simple. I’ll look for a YouTube video or something explaining all this shit, maybe that will help me appreciate it more. Or I’m probably expected to remember the events of fate zero, which again are kind of hazy in my memory. Anyhow, besides all that, hot DAMN is ufotable unparalleled in animation. Sorry but no studio comes close to matching these jaw dropping visuals. Heavens feel is the pinnacle of animation in anime if you ask me. Now personally I felt like the fights didn’t really carry that much weight, and actually now that I think about it the whole thing felt sort of lifeless especially when comparing it to how I remember fate zero or even unlimited blade works. Maybe it’s because we got almost no Gilgamesh screen time LOL Gave presage flower an 8, lost butterfly a 7, and I was going to give spring song a 6, but I think I’ll educate myself a bit on all the events that transpired in this movie to maybe help me understand it all a bit better. I’d really rather leave this series with a nice solid 7. |
  NYANPASU  whiskey tango foxtrot |
flo7 said: This, this is exactly what i meant, they managed to fail the ending. It felt so lacking compared to the novel. What the movie did makes sense and fits with Sakura's feelings about what she caused. They dont have or need to replicate every CG to have a satisficing ending. Shirou and Sakura crossing a line that symbolizes a boundary between them and normal, sinless people is just as good. |
ssjokg said: flo7 said: This, this is exactly what i meant, they managed to fail the ending. It felt so lacking compared to the novel. What the movie did makes sense and fits with Sakura's feelings about what she caused. They dont have or need to replicate every CG to have a satisficing ending. Shirou and Sakura crossing a line that symbolizes a boundary between them and normal, sinless people is just as good. I can see where you are coming from, and while i still think the movie ending is definetly flawed i can sense that you are kinda right, while the Vn ending carried relief and happiness i can feel that the movie's carried acceptance of the sins committed. This dissonance bothered me I guess. I shall need to rewatch it, i watched it in italian and only sometimes you can feel them even trying. |
flo7Apr 16, 2021 2:05 AM
ssjokg said: flo7 said: This, this is exactly what i meant, they managed to fail the ending. It felt so lacking compared to the novel. What the movie did makes sense and fits with Sakura's feelings about what she caused. They dont have or need to replicate every CG to have a satisficing ending. Shirou and Sakura crossing a line that symbolizes a boundary between them and normal, sinless people is just as good. I rewatched it, i was wrong. Great adaptation, had me teary eyed. I was too rash with my fanboy trigger, It kinda feels unreal, that the final adaptation came out so good. |
Aure0lin said: I mean they have been through a lot in those two weeks, plus just because romance happened in a short time doesn't always mean it cant be goodFateMadMan said: it's not the chemistry so much as it is the background. shirou and saber suddenly meet then they somehow fall into lifelong love in less than two weeks after meeting. rin and shirou were familiar with each other but they didn't really interact before the grail war began. I thought the romance was great given how similar saber and shirou were as people, shirou sees his self hypocrisy in saying saber to let it go while not giving up his dangerous ideals Rin had great chemistry with shirou to be honest |
-Stray said: THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE. ---------------------------------------- Felt so weird watching a movie where theres vacant seats in between people cause of the whole covid situation but heck. Movie was... ok? I guess... I never played these FS/N games so I have no idea if this was how it went but I dunno.. felt lackluster in a lot of parts... Something that really bugs me about MAL is that anyone can start the Episode Discussions and then we end up having to read stuff like these lmao Not everyone deserves the microphone |
Rojaseb said: Something that really bugs me about MAL is that anyone can start the Episode Discussions and then we end up having to read stuff like these lmao Not everyone deserves the microphone I agree with that. |
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| On the one hand it's the best Fate series, on the other hand I'm still shocked about how they skipped the ending. The more I think about it the more it bugs me. I was also expecting to like Sakura more coming into this movie but I still feel nothing other than pity for her. On the other other hand I came out liking everyone else even more so I'm at peace. |
| Perfect ending and conclusion to previous two movies and whole Fate/Stay Night series! Really, the movie had so many highlights! Kirei got his much needed characterization (although Ataraxia is still due even though they took parts from it), Zouken demise, second use of Emiya music during his fight with Berserker (epic! I really like how they did his fusion with Archer), Rider/Saber battle with Shirou's Rho Aios, Tohsaka's embrace of Sakura and finally a cherry blossom true end with Sakura wish being granted. The only downside is that the movie still presumes the viewer already knows the lore so anime-only watchers may be a bit lost (like the fact that Illya is actually older, that Shirou's body is not olnly made of swords but also harbors Avalon which maintains his regenration and in the end he is actually saved by Illya and given the body of doll made into familiar to bring him back). But in the end, there are still hints around and it's nothing that can't be fixed with bit read on wiki - it's not like they could fit in everything anyway. In fact, I enjoyed this movie mini-series a lot - and this is probably the best Fate adaptation in existence and the pinnacle of whole franchise. Easily tops UBW and Zero too. 9/10 |
| put this in a lost butterfly thread not knowing it was for lost butterfly... still want to share my thoughts so I'm just going to put this here Loved presage flower the most out of the 3, because it was the most simple and easy to follow. By the end it just got way too convoluted for my taste and I just didn't get what was going on. All I know is that in the end they saved the day and we got a happy ending.... I'm not a hardcore fate fan who has read all the visual novels and stuff. If I did then naturally I would've understood the overall lore better and probably would be able to easily make sense of what was going on in that final act. But no to me it was basically like "RANDOM BS, GO!" Now obviously exposition usually is a turn off when pretty much everyone would prefer "show, not tell." But in this case, they didn't really explain, anything?? Do I have to be a hardcore fate fan to enjoy this route? They really should've made everything a bit more crystal so that EVERYONE could get what was going on. Or maybe I'm just slow, idk. That said, apparently the didn't adapt the ending that well, so maybe argument stands. Hate to say it, but underneath its glorious exterior, this really felt like a hollow shell of an anime, imho. Fate zero still hits hardest. While I would've liked the ending to have been a bit more clear as to what was going on, in the end I don't care much really, we got a spectacular visual feast. Didn't have that much weight behind it, but fights like rider vs saber alter are some of the best things to be put to the anime screen and is what boosts spring song to a 7/10 for me despite a confusing ending |
NYANPASU whiskey tango foxtrot |
| Great movie, deserves all the praise it gets. |
| It feels like you need to be hardcore Fate fan who have read every novel to properly appreciate this movie. As someone who have watched only the anime adaptations, I'm quite confused about a lot of stuff that happened in the movie. Regardless, I enjoyed it quite a lot. Though I enjoyed the 2nd movie the most among the trilogy. The fleshing out of Sakura as a character, the raw emotions, Shirou's choice of putting Sakura above his ideal and everything else in the 2nd movie had a far greater impact on me as someone with mediocre knowledge about the fate universe, than the final movie. Overall I must say that the heaven's feel series indeed lives up to its reputation and everyone should watch it given the chance. |
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| I couldn't stop smiling during Salter vs Rider. That was legit one of the best looking fights I've seen. The soundtrack made it even better. For that alone a great movie I wasn't really sold on the characters, but I came to appreciate Kirei. Didn't know he was jacked like that. At least I don't remember. His slug fest with Shirou was pretty neat for the dialogue. It's been years since UBW, so recency bias might be strong when I say that I prefer HF. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
| can i please have a fate where ilya lives please please |
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| the kindest/cutest girl got the darkest and most fucked up route poor Sakura she deserved this happy ending the most after all the shit she went through definitely the most tragic character in the whole franchise i was never a fan of the fate franchise but HF worked for me the ending could have been executed better but still a very solid serie overall 8/10 Shirou x Sakura FTW !!!    |
tragedydesuMay 7, 2021 8:29 AM
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| These movies are incomprehensible gobbledygook to anyone who hasn't read the visual novel and watched Fate/Zero. With that said, these movies got progressively better as they went along, and Spring Song is just fantastic. That Irisviel cameo got me pretty good. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
Zelkiiro said: Zero doesnt give any info for HF...or UBW.These movies are incomprehensible gobbledygook to anyone who hasn't read the visual novel and watched Fate/Zero. With that said, these movies got progressively better as they went along, and Spring Song is just fantastic. That Irisviel cameo got me pretty good. And the VN isnt really needed for the plot itself. |
ssjokg said: Zelkiiro said: Zero doesnt give any info for HF...or UBW.These movies are incomprehensible gobbledygook to anyone who hasn't read the visual novel and watched Fate/Zero. With that said, these movies got progressively better as they went along, and Spring Song is just fantastic. That Irisviel cameo got me pretty good. And the VN isnt really needed for the plot itself. The Heaven's Feel movies lean in very, very hard on references to the Fate/Zero anime. The aforementioned Irisviel cameo being one of those references. Also no, the VN is completely needed to understand what's going on in these movies. The layperson might get the general gist, but they're gonna have so many questions once it's over. |
This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
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