Shingeki no Kyojin Chapter 122 Discussion

Devil_Slayer said:
Ymir's backstory was kinda meh. That king was cartoonishly evil and with no remorse what so ever even for the mother of his children yet she jumped for him anyway, whatever tbh.

I still don't know what Eren is gonna do with all that power he gained in the end, is he seriously gonna destroy the world for real? I don't see how that give him "true freedom"

Yautja said:
Ymir's backstory definitely should have been and should be given more time (which I believe it will) instead of cramming it into one chapter, and I definitely agree that the king was super fuckin' lame. As is the sort of "talk not jutsu" and insane plot armor regeneration, though it's not too bad. Ymir being who she was is definitely good and fitting, though I wish the whole world tree Nidhogg thing had been given more attention / hints in the past, unless I'm not remembering it. Over all, it's good that things are tying together and make pretty good sense.

To nitpick something about the readers that bugs me, that just goes to show how low the standards are of the anime community are, accurate foreshadowing is not such a big deal. The first rule to writing good fiction is knowing your beginning and ending, this should be standard. This part, the 2000 years, the looking at future Eren, should not be what people are pointing to justify calling this amazing writing. How well it was written, how well it fits, yea, but the foreshadowing itself, no. As far as I'm concerned, the foreshadowing itself, not the story or execution, was no big deal.

To spoil the fuck out of a kids book series that I read, shockingly, as a kid, the Alchemyst, that is rated fairly mediocre, one of the main characters was notably described for his blue eyes, and we learn about his likes and dislikes throughout the first book. Likes history, old animals, dinosaurs, prehistoric stuff, hates snakes, etc.

A while later, like 3 books later, another character, who has been repeatedly mentioned, is introduced. A very mysterious and important guy, he's in a realm modeled after the Pleistocene era. Though some things are off, too many moons, and some things are out of place, no snakes near the water even though there should be as most other things are spot on. His are are described as extremely striking and bright blue. Long story short, as it's impossible to explain why foreshadowing of a series people haven't read was good or and well detailed throughout multiple books, after 2 more books we learn the two characters are one in the same. Time travel shenanigans. All things considered, the foreshadowing was pretty well done, especially for a kids book.

The point being, this foreshadowing was also done from the very beginning, and was incredibly subtle, and done throughout multiple books, multiple times, in a series for kids that is rated pretty average. There are countless cases of this in all kinds of fiction of all kinds of origins. This part specifically, the foreshadowing, shouldn't be such a big deal. It's kind of telling how poorly written / read most manga / readers are. It's such a dumb thing to latch onto to exclaim something is great writing. I definitely think AOT is doing so much better and is very good, but this has got to be the stupidest thing to latch onto.

Yautja said:
Ymir's backstory definitely should have been and should be given more time (which I believe it will) instead of cramming it into one chapter, and I definitely agree that the king was super fuckin' lame. As is the sort of "talk not jutsu" and insane plot armor regeneration, though it's not too bad. Ymir being who she was is definitely good and fitting, though I wish the whole world tree Nidhogg thing had been given more attention / hints in the past, unless I'm not remembering it. Over all, it's good that things are tying together and make pretty good sense.

To nitpick something about the readers that bugs me, that just goes to show how low the standards are of the anime community are, accurate foreshadowing is not such a big deal. The first rule to writing good fiction is knowing your beginning and ending, this should be standard. This part, the 2000 years, the looking at future Eren, should not be what people are pointing to justify calling this amazing writing. How well it was written, how well it fits, yea, but the foreshadowing itself, no. As far as I'm concerned, the foreshadowing itself, not the story or execution, was no big deal.

Modernoir said:

While I was expecting way worse from you this time I can actually understand a lot of your points. Though I'd say the reason why a lot of people are so happy with how well built-up and foreshadowed everything in this series is comes from the fact that it's actually quite hard for a manga to do such foreshadowing so well given that manga is published monthly/weekly. While with books it's much easier to more carefully interweave foreshadowing because the author has all the time in the world to actually write the book and release it all at once, a mangaka has monthly/weekly deadlines they have to adhere to which puts a much stricter time limit on how much depth they can put into foreshadowing. People aren't losing their minds over this manga having foreshadowing, they're appreciating just how deeply foreshadowed so many important elements of the series have been made all the way since the series started 10 years ago. Unless you've got other examples in manga, I can't really think of any that have been interlaced with as much clever foreshadowing as AoT has.

not trying to start a flamewar here, I agree with your point that this should be done WAY more often with manga but it just really isn't done that often, which is a huge shame since I think it does a lot to benefit a story and make it feel so much more coherent.

Yautja said:


If you're not trying to start a flamewar, that was an awful way to open. I don't remember you, so if you're referring to something, you'll have to be more specific, but browsing post history on AOT, and depending on what you mean by "worse", you're one to talk. Opening by throwing unrelated shade ain't the way to avoid flamewars.

Anyways, people don't notice it half the time and are freaking out because a lot of people don't actually read books and or don't / didn't pay attention in English class. The manga / anime / weeb community are shit at these kinds of things, both authors and readers, because of how much garbage gets published and how low the standards are, not principally because of time constraints. People very much are losing their minds over foreshadowing, here and on aggregators especially.

Archer's true identity was plastered all over Fate and the series in general does it a lot, Tatami Galaxy has a lot of it, as do Madoka and Monogatari in particular. Tons of mystery manga and anime such as GoSick. Steins;Gate is obvious. Guilty Crown told the entire story in the opening song. Nagi no Asukara and Little Busters are two other good ones. As for manga in particular, Your Lie in April was littered with death flags. Koe No katachi has a bit of it, IIRC. FMAB is another obvious one. People praise One Piece and Nanatsu no Taizai for it a lot. I heard a lot of good things about Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei too. Mirai Nikki pretty much spoiled everything super early on. The list goes on.

keragamming said:


So basically you are saying, we are not allowed to praise a series for doing a job well done, just because others has done similar things? Not to mention snk is way more impressive for the fact it has been ongoing for a decade now building up to this very moment, where were you when the first chapter was release back in 2009? That is a long ass time for me, not to mention majority of those series are anime originals or short series with 25 episodes max, it is less likely to fuck up a short series than a series that has been ongoing for 10 years! You think people would be behaving like this if snk was ongoing for like 3 years?. That is the difference here.

It is amazing to us, because we get a different perspective of prior events in the series after finding out later developments, it also makes the rewatch value for this series top priority because the readers can go back and get a new experience when they rewatch, once snk is finish I will definitely be rewatching the entire series.

fmab, hxh, jojo,gintama and a few other series gets tons of praise for being the top tier shounen, but if you look at snk and look at what it is doing, you will realise that it is way more ambitious than any of those series that are looked at as the king of shounen series.

If snk season 4 is animated well and is completed faithfully, I have no doubt this series will be a classic, and many already see the series as a classic, but season 4 will take it up to another level.

Edit: Its actually a disrespect for me to compare snk to only shounen series, I believe this series is up there with the best books, tv series and all of the anime medium, which including seinen series. Snk is personally the best written series I have ever experience and I have read a lot of books and watch plenty of tv series as well. I am also not saying its perfect, it does have asspull and it can convenient moments as well, but the overall package and plot is god tier.

Modernoir said:
What OST do you lads listen to while reading these chapters? 2Volt worked really well for this one, but I've seriously come to love https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtmXNtVyaJc especially from 2:18, that fit last month's chapter so fucking well.

Yautja said:


No Kathy, I'm saying that foreshadowing like this isn't a big deal and people shouldn't use it as the indicator that this manga is amazing. Learn to read. That could not have been a better example of what a straw-man is.

keragamming said:


I repeat it is a big deal because many writers not just japanese writers but western writers fucked up all the time, especially if the series is long running one.

I know that "foreshadowing" shouldn't be the only indicator to why this manga is amazing that wouldn't be justice to the manga, but you are not comprehending how long persons have been theorizing about the title of snk chapter 1 and many other mystery that we were kept in the dark for years! now.

It is a mixture of relief that we finally got a answer and also amazement on how well put together it is, it means all the wait was worth it, and that is why persons are so excited, when I saw this month chapter title I and many got chills, its like a nostalgia feeling, because this chapter title is in direct relation to chapter 1 title, this reminds us of the very beginning of this series, that time all of us never knew whether we would like this series or not.

I guess only people that are really invested in the series like myself are the only ones that understand what I am saying. You clearly don't have the attachment to this series like us, so you can't just expect persons to shut away their feelings and emotions.

Kilimini said:



I was listening to "ThanksAT", managed to get the drop at the same moment as i was reading page 15 with Ymir first transformation, then proeeded to finish the chapter with sis puella magica ( Madoka Ost) and sayaka's theme.

Really glad with the music choices as it enhanced the experience for me ;)

keragamming said:


I repeat it is a big deal because many writers not just japanese writers but western writers fucked up all the time, especially if the series is long running one.

I know that "foreshadowing" shouldn't be the only indicator to why this manga is amazing that wouldn't be justice to the manga, but you are not comprehending how long persons have been theorizing about the title of snk chapter 1 and many other mystery that we were kept in the dark for years! now.

It is a mixture of relief that we finally got a answer and also amazement on how well put together it is, it means all the wait was worth it, and that is why persons are so excited, when I saw this month chapter title I and many got chills, its like a nostalgia feeling, because this chapter title is in direct relation to chapter 1 title, this reminds us of the very beginning of this series, that time all of us never knew whether we would like this series or not.

I guess only people that are really invested in the series like myself are the only ones that understand what I am saying. You clearly don't have the attachment to this series like us, so you can't just expect persons to shut away their feelings and emotions.

uzee said:
When dad tells you to finish your dinner

Yautja said:


No, it really isn't. You need to read more stuff outside your wheelhouse if you truly believe that. I said what I did about English class and books for a reason. This is 8th grade stuff. Once people begin to understand that to write a decent story, but more specifically a good ending, an author must know the beginning and ending of a story the moment he begins to write it, foreshadowing of this degree becomes less of an accomplishment and more of a basic requirement.

Is it good? Yes. Does it make sense? Mostly, yea. Is it out of place? Not really. Is it contrived or generalistic? Not too much, no. Is it exceptional or anything to write home about? Not a chance. It's something that a lot of manga lack and people are overreacting to it because of that, because they haven't read much other than manga, and never / aren't paying much attention to / didn't take any courses on writing in school. Not unlike an isolated tribe in South America would react to a flashlight.

Good on you for admitting your judgements are based on emotions and feelings. You highlighting your reverence to this manga, what it means to you, how it matters so much to "people like yourself" who are invested is exactly why I don't particularly believe or trust your opinion on this.

Yautja said:


No, it really isn't. You need to read more stuff outside your wheelhouse if you truly believe that. I said what I did about English class and books for a reason. This is 8th grade stuff. Once people begin to understand that to write a decent story, but more specifically a good ending, an author must know the beginning and ending of a story the moment he begins to write it, foreshadowing of this degree becomes less of an accomplishment and more of a basic requirement.

Is it good? Yes. Does it make sense? Mostly, yea. Is it out of place? Not really. Is it contrived or generalistic? Not too much, no. Is it exceptional or anything to write home about? Not a chance. It's something that a lot of manga lack and people are overreacting to it because of that, because they haven't read much other than manga, and never / aren't paying much attention to / didn't take any courses on writing in school. Not unlike an isolated tribe in South America would react to a flashlight.

Good on you for admitting your judgements are based on emotions and feelings. You highlighting your reverence to this manga, what it means to you, how it matters so much to "people like yourself" who are invested is exactly why I don't particularly believe or trust your opinion on this.

Yautja said:


No, it really isn't. You need to read more stuff outside your wheelhouse if you truly believe that. I said what I did about English class and books for a reason. This is 8th grade stuff. Once people begin to understand that to write a decent story, but more specifically a good ending, an author must know the beginning and ending of a story the moment he begins to write it, foreshadowing of this degree becomes less of an accomplishment and more of a basic requirement.

Is it good? Yes. Does it make sense? Mostly, yea. Is it out of place? Not really. Is it contrived or generalistic? Not too much, no. Is it exceptional or anything to write home about? Not a chance. It's something that a lot of manga lack and people are overreacting to it because of that, because they haven't read much other than manga, and never / aren't paying much attention to / didn't take any courses on writing in school. Not unlike an isolated tribe in South America would react to a flashlight.

Good on you for admitting your judgements are based on emotions and feelings. You highlighting your reverence to this manga, what it means to you, how it matters so much to "people like yourself" who are invested is exactly why I don't particularly believe or trust your opinion on this.

keragamming said:


And you are so much better than all of us in determining what is an exceptional series than what is just a good series. So in the end as I already knew, you just don't want to hear us praising series because you don't feel the same, hey, I don't think hxh is all that nor evangellion and many other series, we all have our opinion, you think your opinion is better than mine and I think my opinion is better than yours.

Don't kid yourself, you are not better than anyone here, just because you go to some writing class, because learning the basic fundamentals and be able to apply it is another story, many writers have brilliant ideas but they just don't know how to execute that idea properly, the same logic applies here, not because these things are the basics and being thought, doesn't mean its easy to do and that people can just apply it, because if that was the case, making masterpiece series would be easy, because guess what you just need to learn how to write a story and then bang! you and everyone else become the next mega hit author.

Good on you for admitting your judgements are based on emotions and feelings. You highlighting your reverence to this manga, what it means to you, how it matters so much to "people like yourself" who are invested is exactly why I don't particularly believe or trust your opinion on this.


I am explaining to you why persons like myself were impacted by these revelations, sorry I am not a robot, if a story can give you emotions, sadness etc it is doing something good in terms of its writing, and this is art not maths, because I can smell the muh! objective opinion coming in, from a mile away.

You first say that foreshadowing isn't anything new, you should not praise a series that neatly connects the story together from start to end, with brilliant subtle foreshadowing because this is suppose to be the norm, every writer learns it before writing their story as you were saying, but I pointed out to you that this isn't the norm, this isn't reality and you even said, but it is not just in Japan but also in the west and everywhere around the world, just like how not everyone can become a good footballer from just training//learning or track and field, dancing, acting, programming etc.

So you shut me down on that, so I said ok, let me give another reason why me and many others are so excited and amaze by these revelations, and when I do, you shut me down again, saying my opinion is irrelevant because I'm using emotion and feelings in the mix as if I am robot and story telling was never about connected with the audience and making them feel apart of the story and having emotions, any story that doesn't draw me in, get a big fat F, because I am not going to continue it.


So my question to you is, what is praise worthy for you? It can't be character development because that is something that every writer learns as well and should know how to do, how about the settings then? Oh, but that is also a general thing that every author should know as well, how about the theme? Oh, wait that is another basic thing that all writers should know so, no praise whatsoever for that as well. I really don't know so I need the opinion of someone like you that knows all these stuff.

We can't praise a goal scorer for scoring goals because that is what he is suppose to do.
We can't praise a programmer for doing a excellent job because that is what he is suppose to do.
We can't praise a cheff for cooking a delicious quality food because that is what is expected of the cheff.

Goal scorers gets praise because not every forward can score a lot of goal.
Not every programmer can programme properly so that is why the ones that can gets praise.
Not every cheff can cook good, I have been to a 5 star restaurant and I wasn't impress with their food, these people should be the best of the best, but they weren't.

So yes, I will appreciate a author when I see its fit to do so, because not every author can do it, because if every author could do it, then it would not be getting a praise in the first place.

and so on.... Just applying your logic to the everyday world. That is a very negative and depressing way to view things if I were to use your logic as gospel.

Sheville said:


What a fucking nerd and party pooper. Get over it you dumbasses.

thekillfra said:

I disagree on the respect you are not giving to manga and anime (since it is full of shitty books and shitty movies, the thing that changes is the life time of a medium and consequently the probability that there are more "masterpieces", then the comparison with books would be ungenerous even towards the cinema ....) and I don't even agree with you when you say that this is a decent foreshadow, it's just a sentence at the beginning of manga with a vague idea on which he then built a mediocre explanation, the worst thing is another, should I feel sorry for ymir? seriously ? ......
I hope it will be explained what is that being who touched Ymir, at this point the "devil" was better ....

Ethicalll said:
It isn't a big deal for you but, it is a big deal for the people who think so! Remember that your opinion=/=fact ¯_(ツ)_/¯. Leave the people and their opinions alone and focus on the series.

l_viha said:


Dumb answer here.
She returned because she was a loyal slave and that's the part of her in all Ackermans. Makes more sense why she saved the king.

Don't know about the second question.

Yautja said:

@NakolHira @Chillapay

All subjects of Ymir, those who can turn into titans, are Eldian and descended from Ymir. Not at all Eldians are subjects of Ymir. Almost all living Eldians are subjects of Ymir due to disease that killed most Eldians except those that the king could alter via the founding titan. Think of it like this, all Japanese are Asian, not all Asian are Japanese. Though, this creates an interesting question, since all subjects of Ymir are obviously descended from Ymir, and Ymir only had kids with the King, does that not mean all subjects of Ymir are a part of the royal family? What's the distinction between the Reiss/Fritz, Historia, Zeke and pretty much everyone else who can turn into a titan? Why can they use the founding titan, IE command Ymir, and not everyone else? It seems they all share Fritz's blood after all.

It seems like Ymir either has to have had kids with someone else, something we've not been given any reason to believe, as that's the only way other subjects of Ymir wouldn't have royal blood. Or that being a royal isn't the sole justification for commanding her.

Ymir, the founding titan, being a slave, and only obeying royals, her slavers, makes sense. But the question now is, is not every subject of Ymir "royal" and capable of commanding her? What is or was stopping Eren? The only things I can think of is maybe only one of the daughters inherented the founding titan, or there's some other justification other than being "royal" to command Ymir. Either way, some things are going to need to be changed around or explained, namely the justifications for controlling the coordinate. Either Ymir has had kids with other people, or being Royal isn't the justification for commanding her / the founding titan.

l_viha said:
@Yautja I think what was stopping Eren from commanding her all this time might've been because he wants her to be free and not be a slave anymore. It was made quite clear in this chapter.

Uchihakira said:
well It was a Demonic flashback

But there somethings that feel contradictory out there
( If someone knows the explanation, please explain )


1- Yumir saves zeke when the thunder spear exploded

Eren said in this chapter that yumir is the one who led him all the way till there , So you can conclude that yumir saved zeke , imo it's a bad use of plot device , Zeke being saved like this is kinda unrealistic way to introduce yumir to the story ( actual yumir )


2- Attack titan ability

Eren said in ch 121 that attack titan ability makes it possible to talk to the previous holder of the titan which was grishia
So why didn't grishia used the same power to save his sister ( died from dogs attack ) and tell kruger to give him the motivation to rebel on Marly


3- Yumir behaviour and character

From the demonic flashback of yumir , we all knew that the idea of being slave is installed in her mind , but what she did says the opposite
let me explain my opinion
If yumir truly thinks she is a slave she won't led eren to Crossing (oragansier)
( eren himself said so ) , So she truly thiks that she isn't a slave because she led eren there to tell her that she isn't a slave , Which really seems stupid imo

Eren said to yumir to lend him her powers so he can destroy the world and make her free , If yumir wants to be free why didn't she done that ?
for ex activating the rumbling ( she already thinks that she's free )


from all my talk We can conclude that yumir can take eren himself to the organiser just like zeke ( Ordering a titan to open his stomach and absorb eren)


4- 13-year rule

from the flashback it seems that this rule is just a lie , As it seems unrealistic to create such a rule while yumir her self didn't have a weak body
( like kruger said )

So why A nation like marly depends on such a rule ??

Sheville said:


What a fucking nerd and party pooper. Get over it you dumbasses.