[4K Anime] New Netflix x Production IG Hand-drawn 4K HDR anime project called Sol Levante faces criticisms from animators for possible insane workload on 720P quality budget

Sep 10, 2019 1:01 PM

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Feb 2015

6844

There's literally no gain from going to producing animation in 4K, when casuals can't even tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and people still choose to watch in 480p on Youtube.

Sep 10, 2019 1:10 PM

#3

PsychoticDave

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Jul 2015

1872

Milennin said:
There's literally no gain from going to producing animation in 4K, when casuals can't even tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and people still choose to watch in 480p on Youtube.

The only people who do that are people who don't have 1080p to 4K displays. Cause it literally doesn't matter unless you have a TV / monitor that can support those resolutions.

Sep 10, 2019 1:42 PM

#4

Milennin

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Feb 2015

6844

PsychoticDave said:

Milennin said:
There's literally no gain from going to producing animation in 4K, when casuals can't even tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and people still choose to watch in 480p on Youtube.

The only people who do that are people who don't have 1080p to 4K displays. Cause it literally doesn't matter unless you have a TV / monitor that can support those resolutions.

Yeah, and only a tiny percentage of people have displays that support 4K. The only reason you could possibly have to want to animate in 4K is if you have some sort of obsession with future-proofing your work, and even then, remasters do a pretty good job of upscaling lower resolation animation to make it look nicer on new tech.

Sep 10, 2019 1:46 PM

#5

PsychoticDave

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Jul 2015

1872

Milennin said:

PsychoticDave said:

The only people who do that are people who don't have 1080p to 4K displays. Cause it literally doesn't matter unless you have a TV / monitor that can support those resolutions.

Yeah, and only a tiny percentage of people have displays that support 4K. The only reason you could possibly have to want to animate in 4K is if you have some sort of obsession with future-proofing your work, and even then, remasters do a pretty good job of upscaling lower resolation animation to make it look nicer on new tech.

Entirely true. In all honesty, 480p old anime look great on my TV. The upscaling on the TVs themselves are nearly enough.

Sep 10, 2019 1:47 PM

#6

Ajvisor

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May 2018

2260

I would lie if I said 4K doesn't look nice, but except for maybe PC Master Race guys, it is, IMO, still way too early for anything else.

Sep 10, 2019 1:48 PM

#7

D8cbeidnd7dne

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Jun 2019

1040

Yeah right, too bad i don't have netflix

Sep 10, 2019 1:49 PM

#8

Catalano

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Oct 2010

21951

So they draw on them bigass sheets o paper? And on the same pay as a regular anime? Genius. Upscalin is pretty good, this is some megalomaniac job to do.

Sep 10, 2019 2:17 PM

#9

Theo1899

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Jun 2016

13860

People are talking about 4k anime and I'm still watching on my old ass 1600x900 VGA monitor. These threads make me feel poor.

MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST

Sep 10, 2019 3:03 PM

#10

Graumann

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Apr 2015

1521

From the link, there doesn't seem to be any hard data on what the budget/schedule is for this project. Kind of hard to do anything besides speculating or just ask for the studio/Netflix to release that information (if contractually permissible).

Sep 10, 2019 3:05 PM

#11

deg

lagom

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Jan 2009

107423

Graumann said:
From the link, there doesn't seem to be any hard data on what the budget/schedule is for this project. Kind of hard to do anything besides speculating or just ask for the studio/Netflix to release that information (if contractually permissible).

hard data like salaries of animators are secret in the anime industry anyway

but this comment criticism of hand drawn 4K anime came from animators in the anime industry themselves though so thats telling something since they have connections to Production IG for example

Sep 11, 2019 3:15 AM

#12

Nutella71

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Jan 2019

986

I don't even have the TV or computer in such high resolution. Why even do such a crazy nonsensical thing?

Sep 11, 2019 5:00 AM

#13

Alcoholicide

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Feb 2010

34616

I do think it's unnecessary, but I also remember in the past a lot of people in this community were asking about it or hoping for it. If Netflix wasn't involved, I don't think the reactions would be this entirely negative tbh.

But well, I don't need this but if it happens I'm probably gonna enjoy it.

I probably regret this post by now.

Sep 11, 2019 6:40 AM

#14

Peeti

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Sep 2019

2168

Pullman said:
I do think it's unnecessary, but I also remember in the past a lot of people in this community were asking about it or hoping for it. If Netflix wasn't involved, I don't think the reactions would be this entirely negative tbh.

But well, I don't need this but if it happens I'm probably gonna enjoy it.

It's about animators that will they be able to make it because it looks harsh to them.

"I think I wanted to attack something. Like betraying people or hurting people. And, well, it's not exactly nice, but hurting the readers too... In all honestly, I feel that's what I really wanted to do. For me, as a reader, when I think, "this manga will remain in my heart," it means, for example, it phenomenally hurt me: It's those kinds of experiences I'm after." - Pajime Hisayama (My favourite hurting author).

Sep 11, 2019 6:57 AM

#15

ChaosSaviour

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Jan 2014

975

Shigeru Yamazaki: "If you are going to do that in 4K, people should have been paid 4 times what that get right now. Even if the company wishes to do so, is the budget there?"

Basically what the man said. if you're gonna slave away your animator even harder than before, it should only be done by giving them more time AND the right compensation.

"This is boring...I'm bored..."

Sep 11, 2019 7:42 AM

#16

Alcoholicide

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Feb 2010

34616

Peeti said:

Pullman said:
I do think it's unnecessary, but I also remember in the past a lot of people in this community were asking about it or hoping for it. If Netflix wasn't involved, I don't think the reactions would be this entirely negative tbh.

But well, I don't need this but if it happens I'm probably gonna enjoy it.

It's about animators that will they be able to make it because it looks harsh to them.

Thanks for reiterating what I already know, I guess.

I probably regret this post by now.

Sep 11, 2019 7:49 AM

#17

Peeti

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Sep 2019

2168

Pullman said:

Peeti said:

It's about animators that will they be able to make it because it looks harsh to them.

Thanks for reiterating what I already know, I guess.

you were talking about Netflix not the animators which was like it's not about animators that it's getting negative comments.

"I think I wanted to attack something. Like betraying people or hurting people. And, well, it's not exactly nice, but hurting the readers too... In all honestly, I feel that's what I really wanted to do. For me, as a reader, when I think, "this manga will remain in my heart," it means, for example, it phenomenally hurt me: It's those kinds of experiences I'm after." - Pajime Hisayama (My favourite hurting author).

Sep 11, 2019 8:44 AM

#18

removed-user

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Jul 2018

561867

What rich bastard with a stellar internet connection has the ability to stream anime in 4K, that lucky dog

Sep 11, 2019 10:20 AM

#19

Tsarko

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Feb 2017

2712

It's unfortunate if true, but to me the post sounds like bunch of assumptions. We don't know neither budget nor length of it (if it's a movie, short or a full blown series).

Generally I don't think it's unnecessary even though not many people own 4K displays. I am all for trying new things and advancement. But yeah, you should think of your workers first.

Catalano said:
So they draw on them bigass sheets o paper? And on the same pay as a regular anime? Genius. Upscalin is pretty good, this is some megalomaniac job to do.

From what I could see in "Making of" video, animation is done digitally on tablets.

Edit: Here is the video with people working on the project if anyone's interested.

TsarkoSep 11, 2019 10:24 AM

Sep 11, 2019 10:53 AM

#20

BilboBaggins365

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Oct 2017

5347

I want higher quality anime with awesome production design but once again in order for us to have a sustainable and healthy industry there needs to be serious change from within. The anime industry grows and gains more profits every year but in attempt to capitalize on that they are running their talent into the ground.

Asia in general isn't the best when it comes to work life balance but the anime industry is on another level. I may not like the practices but yeah that art does look pretty and for those with 4k it probably will look stunning so I will check it out. Just got to hope for animators to force internal change maybe IDK through walkouts or more studios adopting better practices like how Kyo Ani was run. The amount of impact the international audience has is pretty limited.

Sep 11, 2019 11:12 AM

#21

RinkanReich

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Jan 2019

715

But wait, I thought Netflix getting into anime was supposed to save the industry by giving studios a bigger budget to work with?

I hope the poor animators working on High Guardian Spice won't have to work like this!

Sep 13, 2019 3:42 PM

#22

Proiectio

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Mar 2018

23

Catalano said:
So they draw on them bigass sheets o paper? And on the same pay as a regular anime? Genius. Upscalin is pretty good, this is some megalomaniac job to do.

i don't know where the idea that higher resolution = larger area for hand animation, they literally only have to draw at the same scale as any other animation project just scan it in at a higher resolution, the only extra work is maybe adding a few extra details and taking more care when sketching the lines etc. if they draw on tablets as most do, sure they increase the size (resolution) of the virtual paper but they just draw at the same scale again but it records more information due to the larger pixel count. they really don't have to do much extra work for 4k than 1080p, they only things that would potentially require extra work is animating more unique frames and the amount of additional details they can optionally add.

ProiectioSep 13, 2019 3:48 PM

Sep 13, 2019 4:02 PM

#23

removed-user

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I don't see any problem with it if they understand how long it may take to do something like this..

But I'm not sure how they get paid.. like, I'm pretty sure animators don't get paid hourly do they? They have a time restraint, and get paid what they were told they were gonna get paid when they follow through.

But say if it was done a little differently keeping in mind how much time and effort it would take to come out with something like this..

Like.. say a regular anime would take anywhere from a month to half a year to complete.. And they get paid the amount they'd need for the month to half a year of effort they put in..

But if you want a quality piece of animation that would take that much more time and effort.. it'd be obvious they'd need more pay.

Of course they'd need to be paid more if more time and effort is required to come out with something of that quality.

I mean, Redline took 7 years to make and it shows.

They want to make something of that quality, they need to be prepared to pay their animators for 7 years of effort.

Sep 13, 2019 8:57 PM

#24

Catalano

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Oct 2010

21951

jtdlobb said:

Catalano said:
So they draw on them bigass sheets o paper? And on the same pay as a regular anime? Genius. Upscalin is pretty good, this is some megalomaniac job to do.

i don't know where the idea that higher resolution = larger area for hand animation, they literally only have to draw at the same scale as any other animation project just scan it in at a higher resolution, the only extra work is maybe adding a few extra details and taking more care when sketching the lines etc. if they draw on tablets as most do, sure they increase the size (resolution) of the virtual paper but they just draw at the same scale again but it records more information due to the larger pixel count. they really don't have to do much extra work for 4k than 1080p, they only things that would potentially require extra work is animating more unique frames and the amount of additional details they can optionally add.

ok, that sounds better, still they need to be payed correctly for them extra details which some guy from the staff was complaining.

Sep 21, 2019 12:28 PM

#25

Proiectio

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Mar 2018

23

Catalano said:

jtdlobb said:

i don't know where the idea that higher resolution = larger area for hand animation, they literally only have to draw at the same scale as any other animation project just scan it in at a higher resolution, the only extra work is maybe adding a few extra details and taking more care when sketching the lines etc. if they draw on tablets as most do, sure they increase the size (resolution) of the virtual paper but they just draw at the same scale again but it records more information due to the larger pixel count. they really don't have to do much extra work for 4k than 1080p, they only things that would potentially require extra work is animating more unique frames and the amount of additional details they can optionally add.

ok, that sounds better, still they need to be payed correctly for them extra details which some guy from the staff was complaining.

Very true, although they should not be getting paid 4 times as much as the staff were complaining at most it should be 1.5-2 times as much for the extra effort theyre putting in. even then when you think about how most jobs work when you get a promotion you only get maybe a 25% increase on your wages so maybe 1.25 times is more accurate, also since most animators are contractors and due to the nature of the having to put more effort in, it will take longer to make and they will therefore have a stable income for longer than if they were to work on mutiple smaller projects where they could potentially have no work in between. lets not forget jobs are usually paid on an hours basis and so if they work more hours which they will they get paid more. hes just want more per hour which is understandable but not to the extent hes asking for. Also if he has a complaint, he either shouldn't have signed the contract or should take it up with his employer at a later date to discuss terms instead of making a public appeal and hoping people would feel sorry for him and be angry at the studio to try and enforce his wage increase with backlash to the studio. i know animators in japan are usually 'underpaid' but if he truly wants to get a more stable and higher income he should just focus on improving his skills and maybe the studio would want to keep him around.

ProiectioSep 21, 2019 12:37 PM

Sep 21, 2019 12:35 PM

#26

deg

lagom

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Jan 2009

107423

jtdlobb said:

Catalano said:

ok, that sounds better, still they need to be payed correctly for them extra details which some guy from the staff was complaining.

Very true, although they should not be getting paid 4 times as much as the staff were complaining at most it should be 1.5-2 times as much for the extra effort theyre putting in. also since most animators are contractors and due to the nature of the having to put more effort in, it will take longer to make and they will therefore have a stable income for longer than if they were to work on mutiple smaller projects where they could potentially have no work in between. lets not forget jobs are usually paid on an hours basis and so if they work more hours which they will they get paid more. hes just want more per hour which is understandable but not to the extent hes asking for.

the anime industry pay animators per drawing though and not per hour

so it makes sense for them to demand more pay per drawing a more detailed art that 4k is offering

Sep 21, 2019 12:49 PM

#27

Proiectio

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Mar 2018

23

heg said:

jtdlobb said:

Very true, although they should not be getting paid 4 times as much as the staff were complaining at most it should be 1.5-2 times as much for the extra effort theyre putting in. also since most animators are contractors and due to the nature of the having to put more effort in, it will take longer to make and they will therefore have a stable income for longer than if they were to work on mutiple smaller projects where they could potentially have no work in between. lets not forget jobs are usually paid on an hours basis and so if they work more hours which they will they get paid more. hes just want more per hour which is understandable but not to the extent hes asking for.

the anime industry pay animators per drawing though and not per hour

so it makes sense for them to demand more pay per drawing a more detailed art that 4k is offering

understandable but not at 4 times the price, lower than average wages are a problem with the industry as a whole though and likely won't change anytime soon. but there is hope which all the recent attention towards anime that could potentially put some pressure on the higher ups who are currently pocketing it all. lets not forget that animation is a very costly production, it almost bankrupted disney a few times and has bankrupt other companies. reusing frames and paying lower wages is just how the company are trying to avoid risk even if it is wrong in others eyes (if the studio goes under many people would be out of jobs and then nobody would be getting paid), when they feel theyre no longer in threat of going under things will likely change for the better as long as theyre not too greedy just look at kyoto animation.

ProiectioSep 21, 2019 6:52 PM

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