Attack on Titan
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alphazero4um said: I had to reread this chapter multiple times to understand what just happened. So the memories shown here. All past actions of memories that were shown in this chapter is it because of the influence of the Attack Titan? The attack titan rebelled against the First King because it did not agree with his ideology? So what Grisha did was being influenced by Attack Titan himself who has seen the future? Yeah I am really trying to get the idea or trying to simplify it honestly. But it just comes with more questions. If anybody can help me out that be great. I am trying to understand and make it simple of what just happened. I believe what the chapter attempted to showcase is that there's no such thing as "the will of the Attack Titan". The Attack Titan's will is actually Eren's will to seek freedom. Some people are even going so far as to say that Eren is the Attack Titan himself or something like that. But basically, Eren's been using the special power of the Attack Titan of seeing future memories to manipulate it's past shifters. Mainly, the chapter showcased he manipulating Grisha to some extent, but you could easily argue that Kruger and perhaps even others have also been influenced by Eren. |
| Well that was shocking. Never expected Eren to have been the one to start all of this. Surprising to see Grisha wanting Zeke to stop Eren, like he thought Eren had become a monster. Seeing Freida talk about atoning for Eldians sins was sad too. |
| How odd for this chapter especially where eren time travels into the multiverse where he discovers a female armin and develop a relationship with her. |
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| What a amazing chapter, this one is going to be fire when the anime is back. |
attacktitan_01 said: Yautja said: I'm not sure how I feel about this. This is a really borderline move between absolute bullshit and kind of logical, unfortunately the one thing I am sure of is this is not the sort of feeling I should be having at such a paramount and integral turning point / revelation to this series. The only thing that really gives this point credence, off the top of my head, is the Attack Titan not following anyone and being independent. But to take that and extrapolate to time travel is one hell of a fucking stretch. Then time travel, which is an absolute bitch, is not something that should be done so lightly. Once the two weebs who actually read this manga and study physics or are interested in time travel show up, a shit ton of holes are going to start tearing in the sail of this manga, aside from the extremely obvious paradoxical nature that is already apparent. This seems extremely lazy in many ways. There is no time travel involved just memory travel and influence of memories which has already been established like armin being affected by Bertolt's meories, Zeke being affected by Xaver memories, porco being affected by ymir's memories but attack titan can have future memories too that's the difference kind of like steins gate. You're straw-manning. Watch Steins;Gate. It's time travel. If you can affect the past by talking to people, that 100% is time travel. Time travel is defined as "travelling to the past or the future", and him talking to someone is the past obviously qualifies. Looking into the future is precognition. A minor form of time travel. Though considering your name, your profile, and your zealous fan boy defence of this series, I don't expect you to listen to any criticism no matter how slight. |
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| its not physical time travel but like a soul time travel so its kinda the same why are people surprise by this when the time travel or time loop theory has been theorize ever since the first chapter title was called "to you in 2000 years" anyway |
| FT is bounded by the Will of the Past while AT is bounded by the Will of the Future. This power was already foreshadowed from the beginning, even the title of the first chapter "To you, 2000 years from now" to Kruger remembering Armin and Mikasa, so the whole point about the powers of AT being an asspull is invalid. It isn't even a paradox, the linear timeline is made up of all the memories given by the future Attack Titan; this is why the Attack Titan is fighting for freedom because the past holders were bounded by the memories from the current time. This isn't even a fan theory, it was clearly what was told in the chapter. |
attacktitan_01 said: Yautja said: You're straw-manning. Watch Steins;Gate. It's time travel. If you can affect the past by talking to people, that 100% is time travel. Time travel is defined as "travelling to the past or the future", and him talking to someone is the past obviously qualifies. Looking into the future is precognition. A minor form of time travel. Though considering your name, your profile, and your zealous fan boy defence of this series, I don't expect you to listen to any criticism no matter how slight. Even if it is time travel it is done here neatly, I don't see here any illogical or bullshit sort of thing, you don't like not equal to not good or bullshit or illogical. And what you consider as zealous fan boy defence in response to what? A crappy post written by someone trying to disguise their hate as criticism. If there was actual criticism I would have no problem, I don't even reply to post that tries to criticize constructively, just to the post which tries to show faults which are non existent or when someone actually tries to equate I don't like where this is going to this is bullshit or downhill or lazy writing or whatever you like to say. I consider a person who's name and profile which almost solely reflect a single series, who's only commented on AOT forums, straw-manning, and calling mild complaints and personal opinions "hate" and a "crappy post" a fan boy and fan boy defence. I can read for myself, and you've not given any criticism on any forum post any degree of acceptance. While you're leaving, I'll leave the definition of criticism here for you, so that in the event you manage to remove your head from your ass, you can find out what it is. criticism - The act of criticizing, especially adversely; to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly. You're dismissing anything you don't like as unfair or not criticism. Just like Star Wars fan boys. Go harass someone else with fervent desire to defend this series. |
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Gloomy-eyes said: heg said: Thank god, someone with a brain here. Everything has been foreshadowed from the very first chapter and now some butthurts come here thinking it’s unpredictably bullshit.its not physical time travel but like a soul time travel so its kinda the same why are people surprise by this when the time travel or time loop theory has been theorize ever since the first chapter title was called "to you in 2000 years" anyway my guess is that THE PATHS contain all the souls of Edlians that are born from the past and future Eren does not have the Attack Titan yet in the first chapter/episode anyway of that "to you in 2000 years" but how come Eren sees the future with Mikasa there and then he cried too EDIT: another thing about time travel stuff science says we are in a 3D universe but time is in the 4D universe so thats why this time travel stuff is confusing as hell even for modern science since just like 2D beings are theorize to be limited against 3D beings then its the same for us 3D beings being limited that includes limited to imagining what 4D feels and act like thats why the science fiction writers like Isayama here is taking advantage of that and im sure he deliberately made this time paradox stuff |
degSep 4, 2019 9:59 PM
JustAnAnimeList said: Jesus Christ, why don't you people complaining about negative criticism just fuck off to reddit or some other place? You're contributing less to the discussion than people giving "negative" criticism, because they at least are talking about the chapter instead of complaining about others. Also, there's barely any criticism in this thread compared to other chapters. Most of the thread is a back and forth between two users talking about time travel while the rest of the comments are either neutral or praising the chapter. All this complaining against "haters" and "negative criticism" is getting annoying. Don't like the forums? Move to another one. Reddit is a nice echo chamber where any comment that goes against the general consensus gets downvoted to oblivion and disappears, so give that a try. And why don't you go eslewhere instead? Don't like people complaining about criticism? Move, same dumb logic... people can say whatever they want here |
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LoneWalkers said: Supercali said: I don't know why people are discussing Steins;Gate. The time travel described in SnK is more akin to Harry Potter or Interstellar. The past has already happened, it cannot be changed. However, the past happened only because some person in the future interfered. This is not your classical time travel. And 'Paths' is quite similar to the black hole in Interstellar: It is multidimensional, and all space and time is there at a single point. Glad to see someone finally getting it, in other words, it's a bootstrap paradox. Some other movies use it too other than those two examples - Back to the future, Looper, etc. Except that all those movies followed the self-consistency laws of preserving time(otherwise it would create contradiction), SnK has forgotten about it by creating paths and trying to break free of the loop.~ Not a expert when it comes to bootstrap paradox, this is why I refrain from having a debate about this, because this is not my strength, but why does snk have to follow its rules? And could you elaborate more on that. |
attacktitan_01 said: Yautja said: I consider a person who's name and profile which almost solely reflect a single series, who's only commented on AOT forums, straw-manning, and calling mild complaints and personal opinions "hate" and a "crappy post" a fan boy and fan boy defence. I can read for myself, and you've not given any criticism on any forum post any degree of acceptance. While you're leaving, I'll leave the definition of criticism here for you, so that in the event you manage to remove your head from your ass, you can find out what it is. criticism - The act of criticizing, especially adversely; to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly. You're dismissing anything you don't like as unfair or not criticism. Just like Star Wars fan boys. Go harass someone else with fervent desire to defend this series. Well that crappy post part was not for your post it was for lonewalker's post, sorry for that misunderstanding. I never replied to your post initially by being dismissive of your criticism, I tried to provide an argument which you consider straw-manning,and replied by tagging me as zealous fanboy, however, Just because of my name you categorise as me a fanboy, if you checked my profile you can see actually I like deathnote, code geass, steins gate as much as I like snk so I guess I am fanboy of those also. Also, I have very less post on mal most of which are in response to what I described in my previous post, some of which are just argument presented in the response of someone's else's argument without any intention of defence, just like I did in response to your argument. Well I disagree, claiming that my shared criticisms and my complaints are "me not liking something" as opposed to "not good / bullshi or illogical" is pretty dismissive. And considering a fair amount of people here and a lot on MD share that complaint, I'm not inclined to believe it's a subjective complaint. Least of all when I've been given no reason to accept it as such and seen multitudes of reasons to support it. No, I consider saying: "There is no time travel involved just memory travel and influence of memories which has already been established like armin being affected by Bertolt's meories, Zeke being affected by Xaver memories, porco being affected by ymir's memories but attack titan can have future memories too that's the difference kind of like steins gate." a straw-man because being influenced by other people's past memories is not nearly the same thing as a living person influencing a dead person's actions in the past. A contemptible one at that. Similarly to how I consider the fallacious nature of claiming that seeing past or future memories is not a form a time travel, nor is conveying a message to people in the past as not being time travel contemptible. No I label you a fanboy because I did check your profile and saw this: 4/7 of your favorite anime are AOT Your only manga favorited, of 2 read, is AOT 3/10 of your favorite characters are AOT 1/2 of your favorite people is the author to the series That's 9/20 favorites. Nearly half of your favorited stuff is AOT, and everything else, profile picture, name and commenting habits are solely AOT related. You're never going to convince me or anyone you're not a fanboy, so that isn't a hill to die on. On a slightly unrelated note, not just directed at you, foreshadowing doesn't mean good writing or an acceptable development. Game of Thrones is a living example of that. |
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| That was quite a nice call back to several interconnected events through people in the past having contact with future titan users memories and informations. Kinda reminds me that to this day, stuff that was said regarding the subject such as "being able to see ahead in the future would lead your mind to be completely twisted by the conclusions and objectives regardless of your personal instances before that fact". This was a twist some of my friends had kinda predicted a while ago already to be honest, but nonetheless it really feels pretty fresh considering how far the explanation was detailed regarding the Attack Titan's power. I think everybody was waiting for it to be fully explained for some time now. TL;DR The actions that happened in the past were influenced by their access to the memories from the future attack titans, and that much was foreshadowed ever since the Owl said "if you want to save Mikasa and Armin...". Superb chapter. 5/5 |
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LoneWalkers said: ThatShiny_Hex said: FT is bounded by the Will of the Past while AT is bounded by the Will of the Future. This power was already foreshadowed from the beginning, even the title of the first chapter "To you, 2000 years from now" to Kruger remembering Armin and Mikasa, so the whole point about the powers of AT being an asspull is invalid. It isn't even a paradox, the linear timeline is made up of all the memories given by the future Attack Titan; this is why the Attack Titan is fighting for freedom because the past holders were bounded by the memories from the current time. This isn't even a fan theory, it was clearly what was told in the chapter. Just saying, "linear timeline" and "future memories" don't fit in the same sentence, they are contradictory themselves. What you are trying to say is a closed casual time loop, and someone already explained that in a better way above(despite the fact that the manga doesn't follow the laws for it.) ~ Oh yes, I meant to say the same thing. Atleast the future memories were already foreshadowed from the beginning. Yautja said: attacktitan_01 said: Well that crappy post part was not for your post it was for lonewalker's post, sorry for that misunderstanding. I never replied to your post initially by being dismissive of your criticism, I tried to provide an argument which you consider straw-manning,and replied by tagging me as zealous fanboy, however, Just because of my name you categorise as me a fanboy, if you checked my profile you can see actually I like deathnote, code geass, steins gate as much as I like snk so I guess I am fanboy of those also. Also, I have very less post on mal most of which are in response to what I described in my previous post, some of which are just argument presented in the response of someone's else's argument without any intention of defence, just like I did in response to your argument. Well I disagree, claiming that my shared criticisms and my complaints are "me not liking something" as opposed to "not good / bullshi or illogical" is pretty dismissive. And considering a fair amount of people here and a lot on MD share that complaint, I'm not inclined to believe it's a subjective complaint. Least of all when I've been given no reason to accept it as such and seen multitudes of reasons to support it. No, I consider saying: "There is no time travel involved just memory travel and influence of memories which has already been established like armin being affected by Bertolt's meories, Zeke being affected by Xaver memories, porco being affected by ymir's memories but attack titan can have future memories too that's the difference kind of like steins gate." a straw-man because being influenced by other people's past memories is not nearly the same thing as a living person influencing a dead person's actions in the past. A contemptible one at that. Similarly to how I consider the fallacious nature of claiming that seeing past or future memories is not a form a time travel, nor is conveying a message to people in the past as not being time travel contemptible. No I label you a fanboy because I did check your profile and saw this: 4/7 of your favorite anime are AOT Your only manga favorited, of 2 read, is AOT 3/10 of your favorite characters are AOT 1/2 of your favorite people is the author to the series That's 9/20 favorites. Nearly half of your favorited stuff is AOT, and everything else, profile picture, name and commenting habits are solely AOT related. You're never going to convince me or anyone you're not a fanboy, so that isn't a hill to die on. On a slightly unrelated note, not just directed at you, foreshadowing doesn't mean good writing or an acceptable development. Game of Thrones is a living example of that. The thing is, Steins gate isn't "correct". It's a science "fiction". Just like how interstellar uses the same topic in another way. Shingeki is fantasy and not completely sci-fi |
| the only time travel stuff in the entertainment industry of the whole world afaik that is close to being scientific is the Avengers Endgame time travel rules (Many Worlds Theory in Quantum Physics) |
degSep 4, 2019 10:52 PM
| Been 10 years from serialization and now it all connects. Eren bloody terrific mastermind! What a guy to foresee it all and lay it all according to keikaku. |
When someone asks me why I like anime, I'd say Just Because. |
LoneWalkers said: keragamming said: Not a expert when it comes to bootstrap paradox, this is why I refrain from having a debate about this, because this is not my strength, but why does snk have to follow its rules? And could you elaborate more on that. Because unless SnK has its own time travel rules(which most people don't have a clue as the posts are evident), that's the general assumption because of its popular usage in fiction and proved by some scientific hypothesis. Otherwise every work of fiction would make up its own rules.~ There isn't much to explain here. Bootstrap paradox works well when there is a single cause and effect allowing the loop, the very presence of paths disrupting the flow of time violates the theory itself. However most readers won't have a problem here anyway because it sounds cool in theory. We still don't even know how these powers(like eren in first chapter seeing future despite not getting the power)actually work in the first place so it can get only worse. ~ Most people love it, not because it sounds cool but because it is a major twist that literally subvert expectation and put a new meaning to what is going on in the world and also make past events having more significance which is another reason why the rewatch value for this series is so high. At the end of the day time travel is just a theory or a hypothesis, using it to make the story telling richer and more unpredictable is what story telling is all about as long as the author has been consistent with foreshadowing these events and setting up everything. I don't know about you, but I think this story is pretty ambitious, when persons read a story or watch a series, they want to have different emotions, they want to feel excited, shock, scared etc, persons would also rather a consistent story, but in every story there is a flaw and that is why we use something call suspension of disbelief, you have to have that when watching any story. Let us say you are right and that it does create some plot holes, depending if the plot holes are small, then I would take it any time. Because I would rather a ambitious story that tries other things out of the norm that will excite readers/ viewers than a story that takes the safe route with no flaws but having the same generic boring story telling you have seen a 100 times already, no excitement no twist etc. Tell me which one you prefer a artist that does the same thing like the other millions of artist does or one that comes up with something unique even if it has more flaws than those. Also your final point says it nicely, we still don't know how it works, so it is pretty pre mature of you to say it's going to get worse, all I am saying at least give the author a chance to explain before saying he ruin the series. You know the old saying innocent before proven guilty. One thing you are anyone cannot deny is that this work Isayama is putting in is very ambitious and no one could ever predict that this series would become what it is today and many author would be scared to go the path that he has gone to. We want more story tellers to take more risk and improve their overall view of a story. Isayama has mix various elements into his story and tightly wrap them together to the point where none of them feel alien to the plot. |
keragammingSep 4, 2019 11:05 PM
| Just when you think you've understood it all another mindfuck out of nowhere. Now we know that actually Eren orchestrated everything since chapter 1 and that probably he's the bad guy in it all, even way back with the first Titan King |
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| @Yautja On a slightly unrelated note, not just directed at you, foreshadowing doesn't mean good writing or an acceptable development. Game of Thrones is a living example of that. So you are basically saying all the build up from years, the very first chapter called to you 2000 years ago, shingeki no kyojin literally translate to attack titan, which is about Eren Titan which is actually turning out to be the main plot of the show should just be disregarding because you don't like any form of time travel or parodox element in a story? Does that sound fair to you? The difference between snk and game of thrones is that this element called "path" is what is actually build around snk, for game of thrones it was more of a sub plot. I will say it again, I would accept small flaws in any series as long as they have an ambitious plot, the more ambitious a plot becomes the higher the chances of some flaws showing, the less ambitious it is the less likely of that series having flaws, the only thing it's going to be one of those other series that you have watched a million times. I am not saying you are not to question these elements because I have few questions as well, but at least give the author time to explain all of this, there is still a lot we don't know. |
| Amazing chapter as usual, great twist can't wait for the next chapter |
| BARK BARK BARK ARRRGGFFF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK HSSSSSSSSS SNIFF SNIFF GRRRRR RUFF RUFF WOOF WOOF WOOF SNARL BITE BITE BARK CHOMP SNIFF SNIFF GRRRRRRRRRR RUFF WOOF BARK BARK BARK BARK ARGGGHHFFFF BITE BITE BITE WOOF HSSSSSSS GRRRROWWWL HOWLLL WOOF WOOF BARK BARK BARK ARGGGGRRRFFF BITE WOOF WOOFBARK BARK HSSSS CHOMP GRRRRR |
I don't think this time shit was necessary but we have to see how it turns out, seems not likely to end good since there are not many chapters left but.....we have to wait. |
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| Yams made a massive move with this chapter. Elements of time travel have been predicted for quite a while now, so I hope this whole thing is planned out properly without any holes. I would be interested to interested to see how this time loop will be resolved. Where is the point of diversion? Will there even be one? This would be the case if the story wants to head towards a dead end for the Eldians. Here's a proposition: Eren's provocation of Grisha this chapter was to ensure that the past did in fact happen and all the events leading up to this will happen (this has been pulled off in another popular franchise). One thing that's still unclear to me is what really changed Eren when he saw the memories he accessed through kissing Historia's hands. Was it his father? He did claim that his disappointment in Grisha was real. Was it the influence of his future self? This is plausible seeing as he changed a lot in the coming years. |
Lel0uchZer0 said: heg said: the only time travel stuff in the entertainment industry of the whole world afaik that is close to being scientific is the Avengers Endgame time travel rules (Many Worlds Theory in Quantum Physics) Endgame time travel rules are by far the worst ones i've seen in my life The only time time travel worked was steins gate Thank god this is not time travel why its not a time travel when future Eren influences past events? thats like time travelling back in the past to change things for a better future and thats where the time paradox stuff gets in the arguments on this thread |
Lel0uchZer0 said: heg said: why its not a time travel when future Eren influences past events? thats like time travelling back in the past to change things for a better future and thats where the time paradox stuff gets in the arguments on this thread Eren is not in the past he just sees memories of the past .... the attack titan is influenced by memories of the future that is all there is to it your thinking of physical time travel when there is THE PATHS that have the souls of all Eldians and maybe all of them from past and future so its like a soul time travel there |
Lel0uchZer0 said: heg said: your thinking of physical time travel when there is THE PATHS that have the souls of all Eldians and maybe all of them from past and future so its like a soul time travel there It's just memory travel... events of the past influenced by the future isnt this chapter the other way around it clearly shows Grisha hesitating to kill the royal family but Eren influenced him to kill them anyway and how can you explain the first chapter/episode titled "to you in 2000 years" where Eren that has no Attack Titan powers at that time saw some memory time travel and he cried too |
Lel0uchZer0 said: heg said: isnt this chapter the other way around it clearly shows Grisha hesitating to kill the royal family but Eren influenced him to kill them anyway and how can you explain the first chapter/episode titled "to you in 2000 years" where Eren that has no Attack Titan powers at that time saw some memory time travel and he cried too Bruh just stop reading you are not worthy of this masterpiece ye you got no argument then Grisha even says to Zeke to stop Eren in the final panels of this chapter because he saw the future memories of Eren |
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