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| Those walls of text though... |
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ponygon123 said: Ah I liked Tohsaka alot and now his murderer is the guardian of his daughter. This is a really good show, shame I didn't watch it when it was airing. I wonder if I should watch Fate/Stay night or wait for the new adaption that is coming out. Wait for the upcoming one. Also, mind elaborating on what you liked about him? I'm a bit curious o.o |
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Botato said: ponygon123 said: Ah I liked Tohsaka alot and now his murderer is the guardian of his daughter. This is a really good show, shame I didn't watch it when it was airing. I wonder if I should watch Fate/Stay night or wait for the new adaption that is coming out. Wait for the upcoming one. Also, mind elaborating on what you liked about him? I'm a bit curious o.o I dunno what the OP liked about him in particular, but Tohsaka seemed like perhaps the only one in the Grail War with relatively pure motives. He respected the Mages Association, and with it magecraft, above all else. Granted, the things that respect lead him to do were rather despicable, but I think he remains one of the relatively likable characters in the series. |
freeflowmeJun 5, 2014 3:13 PM
| You know, if we twist common sense that much, Ryunosuke and Caster where really pure as well. |
ssjokg said: You know, if we twist common sense that much, Ryunosuke and Caster where really pure as well. Well, I did say "relatively" :p I guess he's not that great, even relatively, though... On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is totally abhorrent and 7 is completely pure, I'd probably go: 1. Serial killer > 2. Kirei (joy in others' suffering) > > 3. Tohsaka (gives Sakura up to crest worms) > > > > 4. Archibald > 5. Kiritsugu (greater good ethic doesn't hold water) > > 6. Waver (just wanted to prove he's capable) > 7. Kairya (selflessly stepped in for Sakura) |
freeflowmeJun 5, 2014 5:51 PM
| Weeelll, Kariya is not purely selfless and Tokiomi had deeper motives besides the ones he told Kariya (and since you never played HF, it's harder to imagine why he wanted Sakura to learn magecraft). Both are supposed to be viewed in contrast with Tokiomi being portrayed in a slightly more positive way and Kariya in a more negative way in the second half. But that has been discussed numerous times already, so I'll back out. Btw, Kirei isn't such a bad guy actually. There's a reason why Shirou can actually like him. But that's HF material again, so... |
CapsuleCoreJun 5, 2014 7:12 PM
| Reminds of the time I tried to discuss this show with a friend and he complained that the show did not focus on the right characters. Tokiomi and Risei Kotomine... |
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ponygon123 said: Botato said: Wait for the upcoming one. Also, mind elaborating on what you liked about him? I'm a bit curious o.o I liked his family in general and I thought he was a decent guy with decent motives. It also helps that I found him to be one of the only bearable characters in the shows, I find so many of the characters annoying. I have never liked a show so much when I hate almost all of the characters. I disagree with what he did to Sakura but at the same time I understand it in away. And I like his relationship with his daughter Rin, it is very sweet and nice. You liked a family where the mother just bows her head to the father, no matter what crappy decisions he makes, because he is her "husband and head of the family", where both mother and father, regardless of motives, literally discarded their daughter and never asked about her again.Ok... What of all this is decent or bearable? Lets not forget that he is so full of himself and his plans are basically "hide and lets other do the job and cant even understand how to use(treat) his Servant. |
ssjokg said: You liked a family where the mother just bows her head to the father, no matter what crappy decisions he makes, because he is her "husband and head of the family", where both mother and father, regardless of motives, literally discarded their daughter and never asked about her again.Ok... What of all this is decent or bearable? Lets not forget that he is so full of himself and his plans are basically "hide and lets other do the job and cant even understand how to use(treat) his Servant. Granted, his actions concerning his daughter(s) are reprehensible and ultimately inexcusable. That said, I think a "hide and let's let 5 other Servants die so we just have to kill 1 with my OP Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. Why risk yours if you don't have to? Also, how else was he supposed to handle the most independent Servant of a notoriously independent class if not by at least pretend groveling before him the whole time? |
freeflowme said: ssjokg said: You liked a family where the mother just bows her head to the father, no matter what crappy decisions he makes, because he is her "husband and head of the family", where both mother and father, regardless of motives, literally discarded their daughter and never asked about her again.Ok... What of all this is decent or bearable? Lets not forget that he is so full of himself and his plans are basically "hide and lets other do the job and cant even understand how to use(treat) his Servant. Granted, his actions concerning his daughter(s) are reprehensible and ultimately inexcusable. That said, I think a "hide and let's let 5 other Servants die so we just have to kill 1 with my OP Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. Why risk yours if you don't have to? Also, how else was he supposed to handle the most independent Servant of a notoriously independent class if not by at least pretend groveling before him the whole time? Yet his plan failed from step 1. He was supposed to handle him with respect.Or at least try to entertain him a bit. If a little girl of a forsaken tribe could do that then it should be easy for an "educated" magi. |
| Personally, I find Tokiomi hilarious because he's just so incredibly stupid. The novel makes this crystal clear but you can see it in his eyes. Even when the knife is all the way in, he still has not realized that Kirei isn't on his side. In his dying moments, he's still trying desperately in his mind to figure out what is going on because he is so absolutely convinced that Kirei was on his side that the very idea that he would betray him doesn't even exist in his mind. And that, to me, is hilarious. |
| Damn... I'm not sure who to root for now. I like both Kiritsugu and Saber, but Kirei and Gilgamesh make an awesome pair. I had a feeling Gilgamesh was considering re-contracting with Kirei after all their conversations, and it was surprisingly...satisfying to see it happen. There's a mutual admiration going on there that's really fun to see. |
freeflowme said: ssjokg said: You know, if we twist common sense that much, Ryunosuke and Caster where really pure as well. Well, I did say "relatively" :p I guess he's not that great, even relatively, though... On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is totally abhorrent and 7 is completely pure, I'd probably go: 1. Serial killer > 2. Kirei (joy in others' suffering) > > 3. Tohsaka (gives Sakura up to crest worms) > > > > 4. Archibald > 5. Kiritsugu (greater good ethic doesn't hold water) > > 6. Waver (just wanted to prove he's capable) > 7. Kairya (selflessly stepped in for Sakura) Kariya was not selfless. |
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| I liked Tokiomi despite all his faults. He wasn't a bad guy; he made decisions he thought right based on the moral values of the magi society he and his family have grown up with. He is more decent than half of the other masters. So it sucked seeing him die like that, and anybody who thinks he was awful while praising Kirei seriously needs to take their fanboy glasses off Kirei's a good character because he makes me uncomfortable. He's competent, dangerous, inscrutable, and unpredictable - a lethal combination for a villain. Sometimes I love the villains, but there's also nothing about Kirei that charms me. He's not charming or entertaining or attractive; he's gloomy and scary. I would enjoy disliking him (since that's the goal for villains) but unfortunately I know how this all turns out, so I don't really enjoy watching him. :( |
yaddayadda said: I liked Tokiomi despite all his faults. He wasn't a bad guy; he made decisions he thought right based on the moral values of the magi society he and his family have grown up with.b] He is more decent than half of the other masters.[/b] So it sucked seeing him die like that, and anybody who thinks he was awful while praising Kirei seriously needs to take their fanboy glasses off Kirei's a good character because he makes me uncomfortable. He's competent, dangerous, inscrutable, and unpredictable - a lethal combination for a villain. Sometimes I love the villains, but there's also nothing about Kirei that charms me. He's not charming or entertaining or attractive; he's gloomy and scary. I would enjoy disliking him (since that's the goal for villains) but unfortunately I know how this all turns out, so I don't really enjoy watching him. :( Dont worry there are others with shitty opinions as well. |
| Rejoice, ssjokg! Your wish of having someone else to rage at for not treating Tokiomi as complete trash will finally be fulfilled! |
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yaddayadda said: Kirei's a good character because he makes me uncomfortable. He's competent, dangerous, inscrutable, and unpredictable - a lethal combination for a villain. Sometimes I love the villains, but there's also nothing about Kirei that charms me. He's not charming or entertaining or attractive; he's gloomy and scary. I would enjoy disliking him (since that's the goal for villains) but unfortunately I know how this all turns out, so I don't really enjoy watching him. :( FSN Kirei says hi. |
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Fai said: Rejoice, ssjokg! Your wish of having someone else to rage at for not treating Tokiomi as complete trash will finally be fulfilled! Was there someone before? Never mind, just remembered the previous discussion in this thread. |
BotatoJun 8, 2014 4:51 AM
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Botato said: They may not treat him like trash but at least they dont call him decent.Fai said: Rejoice, ssjokg! Your wish of having someone else to rage at for not treating Tokiomi as complete trash will finally be fulfilled! Was there someone before? Never mind, just remembered the previous discussion in this thread. |
ssjokg said: Botato said: They may not treat him like trash but at least they dont call him decent.Was there someone before? Never mind, just remembered the previous discussion in this thread. ponygon123 did, but he also disapproved of Tokiomi's actions so I guess that's ok? |
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Botato said: ssjokg said: They may not treat him like trash but at least they dont call him decent. ponygon123 did, but he also disapproved of Tokiomi's actions so I guess that's ok? I want to read his reasons as "I only like his goal of reaching the Root". It may be a boring, and generic goal for a magi but that in itself isnt bad. |
| Oh ok. |
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| The Azoth Dagger. Who would have known that very dagger Kirei held would be |
| Yess that's more like the Kirei I love ;D, haha Tokiomi..good. Though would have preferred a prolonged death than a instant kill. |
AozureAug 24, 2014 11:57 AM
| ^Keep in mind that he had better intentions for Sakura when he gave her away to adoption. This was omitted in the anime. |
C-Core said: From a magus point of view yes.^Keep in mind that he had better intentions for Sakura when he gave her away to adoption. This was omitted in the anime. And using Tsukihime as an exmple, his "fears" seem more like an attempt to justify his decision instead of actual fear. |
ssjokgAug 24, 2014 12:50 PM
| We had this discussion already. Yes, his view is limited. And it can look like he wants to convince himself that this is what he had to do. That is one way you can interpret it. I find his fear rather justified and he's an overly cautious man. As for Tsukihime... |
CapsuleCoreAug 24, 2014 1:36 PM
C-Core said: We had this discussion already. Yes, his view is limited. And it can look like he wants to convince himself that this is what he had to do. That is one way you can interpret it. I find his fear rather justified and he's an overly cautious man. As for Tsukihime... I dont think that cautious is the right word.Because he obviously didnt do the right choices even if we forget about Sakura. |
| I wouldn't say it would be an obvious wrong choice if Zouken wasn't the most evil asshole in Fuyuki. And you know that it's not just about being a danger to others in Sakura's case. And now I'm gonna read the latest 3rei chapter again because it was fucking awesome. |
C-Core said: I wouldn't say it would be an obvious wrong choice if Zouken wasn't the most evil asshole in Fuyuki. And you know that it's not just about being a danger to others in Sakura's case. And now I'm gonna read the latest 3rei chapter again because it was fucking awesome. Then again Tokiomi was most oblivious idiot in his whole family. ... Is it wrong to anticipate Fate/Kaleid lIner 3rei's anime adaptation MORE than ufotable FSN now?... |
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Fai said: Hereditary curse, remember? The idiot part is in his blood. Every Tohsaka runs the risk of inversion if the idiot blood is stronger than the non-idiot one. Thankfully, Rin can resist her inversion impulse most of the time.C-Core said: I wouldn't say it would be an obvious wrong choice if Zouken wasn't the most evil asshole in Fuyuki. And you know that it's not just about being a danger to others in Sakura's case. And now I'm gonna read the latest 3rei chapter again because it was fucking awesome. Then again Tokiomi was most oblivious idiot in his whole family. ... Fai said: Is it wrong to anticipate Fate/Kaleid lIner 3rei's anime adaptation MORE than ufotable FSN now?... I can understand that. I'd be interested in the reactions of those who just call Prisma Illya some Madoka Magica ripoff crap (yes, I've seen this on youtube before) without watching it and blame the studios, who have nothing to do with that, for not bringing FSN earlier or adapting a full Fate/Prototype series. |
Fai said: Is it wrong to anticipate Fate/Kaleid lIner 3rei's anime adaptation MORE than ufotable FSN now?... Actually I'm looking forward to the 2wei beach episode most. Not because of the swimsuits, but because it was 3 chapters of Ruby trolling the entire cast so badly that at the end the situation is so fucked up the only way to fix it is for Sapphire to wipe everybody's memory of the day MIB style. Best beach chapter ever. |
C-Core said: I wouldn't say it would be an obvious wrong choice if Zouken wasn't the most evil asshole in Fuyuki. And you know that it's not just about being a danger to others in Sakura's case. We are talking about the Sealing Designations right, due to rarity and /or how dangerous they are right?That is why I bring up Tsukihime and families like Tonho who SHOULD have been very valuable to the Association being dangerous or not. |
Sealing said: (封印指定) : 「学問では修得できない魔術、その体質のみが可能にする一代限り」. Sealing Designations are handed out to those who possess extraordinary and rare magical, as in thaumaturgical, traits. That does not include supernatural beings like oni. The MA does not concern itself with them. Organizations like the Demon Hunters are responsible for them. |
C-Core said: Fai said: Hereditary curse, remember? The idiot part is in his blood. Every Tohsaka runs the risk of inversion if the idiot blood is stronger than the non-idiot one. Thankfully, Rin can resist her inversion impulse most of the time.Then again Tokiomi was most oblivious idiot in his whole family. ... Fai said: Is it wrong to anticipate Fate/Kaleid lIner 3rei's anime adaptation MORE than ufotable FSN now?... I can understand that. I'd be interested in the reactions of those who just call Prisma Illya some Madoka Magica ripoff crap (yes, I've seen this on youtube before) without watching it and blame the studios, who have nothing to do with that, for not bringing FSN earlier or adapting a full Fate/Prototype series. No need for youtube. Haven't you seen in MAL itself, in S1 discussion threads someone went "OMG, Archer created a bow!? What a Madoka rip off!!" |
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C-Core said: Considering Akiha's abilities,or any other mixed blood that we didnt see, wouldnt MA WANT them?Sealing said: (封印指定) : 「学問では修得できない魔術、その体質のみが可能にする一代限り」. Sealing Designations are handed out to those who possess extraordinary and rare magical, as in thaumaturgical, traits. That does not include supernatural beings like oni. The MA does not concern itself with them. Organizations like the Demon Hunters are responsible for them. They DO call SA the "greatest honor"and we know it is bullshit, so I dont see how they would miss the chance for something like Akiha's abilities just because they "officially" dont want them.JUst like rare magical traits they cant be acquired through study. |
ssjokg said: C-Core said: Considering Akiha's abilities,or any other mixed blood that we didnt see, wouldnt MA WANT them?Sealing Designations are handed out to those who possess extraordinary and rare magical, as in thaumaturgical, traits. That does not include supernatural beings like oni. The MA does not concern itself with them. Organizations like the Demon Hunters are responsible for them. They DO call SA the "greatest honor"and we know it is bullshit, so I dont see how they would miss the chance for something like Akiha's abilities just because they "officially" dont want them.JUst like rare magical traits they cant be acquired through study. Its the territory of knowledge of their rivals. Ignoring that it takes place in secluded part of dirty Japanland that no one cares about, Either Hunters or the Church will handle that and if MA tried to, it would be seen as an invasion into THEIR field and neither side wants that. |
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Fai said: ssjokg said: Considering Akiha's abilities,or any other mixed blood that we didnt see, wouldnt MA WANT them? They DO call SA the "greatest honor"and we know it is bullshit, so I dont see how they would miss the chance for something like Akiha's abilities just because they "officially" dont want them.JUst like rare magical traits they cant be acquired through study. Its the territory of knowledge of their rivals. Ignoring that it takes place in secluded part of dirty Japanland that no one cares about, Either Hunters or the Church will handle that and if MA tried to, it would be seen as an invasion into THEIR field and neither side wants that. We know that MA doesnt really care.The only rivals they may be concerned about is the Church. Most of the most awesome things in Nasuverse that we have seen originated in the dirty east and all known SA candidates are japanese, one of them being a member of Atlas a branch that has no good ties with them and doesnt want to share stuff. |
ssjokg said: Fai said: Its the territory of knowledge of their rivals. Ignoring that it takes place in secluded part of dirty Japanland that no one cares about, Either Hunters or the Church will handle that and if MA tried to, it would be seen as an invasion into THEIR field and neither side wants that. We know that MA doesnt really care.The only rivals they may be concerned about is the Church. Most of the most awesome things in Nasuverse that we have seen originated in the dirty east and all known SA candidates are japanese, one of them being a member of Atlas a branch that has no good ties with them and doesnt want to share stuff. WHy do you think it is that? Because MA and Church and etc have not been "cleaning the place up", so things like Shirou Emiya, Touko AOzaki, Aoko Aozaki, etc, have TIME to grow into who they are, without being stuffed into tubes. Demons/oni can be seen as Church's jurisdiction - MA most would reason that if htey did anything about stuff like that, it would give an out for Church to start experimenting on mages. |
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| If it doesn't help them with their research, it is meaningless. If the mixed blood cannot help them with their thaumaturgical study, and this should be assumed until proven otherwise, then the answer is no, they don't want them. Oni are part of natural spirits, they belong to Gaia. Their abilities aren't of thaumaturgical nature. The only group that is frequently mentioned to clash with them are the Demon Hunters. You are calling Tokiomi out on his decision based on an assumption of yours that the MA wants to preserve unique traits, regardless of whether it is of thaumaturgical nature or not, without having any actual proof. Therefore, I find a comparison of the mixed bloods and Sakura to be inappropriate. |
| Tokiomi's fears are also assumptions unless if MA came to his door and asked for Sakura. We question MA's search for unique traits?What exactly do they have to lose? |
| Tokiomi's assumption was written by the authors, and considering the fact that we know next to nothing about what Tokiomi has experienced, we must take his concerns at face value. Yours is taken from your own thoughts which has no ground besides "the MA lie" and "why not"?. ssjokg said: We question MA's search for unique traits?What exactly do they have to lose? If it doesn't bring them any further in their research, it's a waste of time and manpower to get them. It also breaks jurisdictions, which would only cause trouble to the organizations who are actually responsible for dealing with the mixed bloods. |
| All of Tokiomi was written by the authors and he clearly he isnt always right. MA lies with their own description of the SA. Giant "if" about researches we dont know much about(except their grand goal). They have already done that.Atlas being a brunch doesnt matter precisely because it is Atlas. |
ssjokg said: Which automatically disregards his concern?All of Tokiomi was written by the authors and he clearly he isnt always right. ssjokg said: So that is your proof that they will also go for anything as long as it's unique. Perhaps they should go for Arcueid or Solomon.MA lies with their own description of the SA. ssjokg said: Giant "if" about researches we dont know much about(except their grand goal). They have already done that.Atlas being a brunch doesnt matter precisely because it is Atlas. We never saw the MA's Enforcers hunting oni or mixed blood. Only the Church or the Demon Hunters. And are you seriously comparing Demon Hunter Association and the Church's jurisdiction with Atlas'? |
CapsuleCoreAug 25, 2014 8:43 AM
| It makes it questionable. Yes.Not being able to do anything to obtain them doesnt mean that they wouldnt use them if they could. Have we ever seen Enforcers doing their job except from FZ anime? Atlas would hunt down their own members for breaking their own golden rule.Obtaining one of them should be as serious issue. |
ssjokg said: Yes.Not being able to do anything to obtain them doesnt mean that they wouldnt use them if they could. And I'm telling you that is pure speculation on your part. Where is the basis for them going after anything that is not related to magic or sorcery? Lorelei btw doesn't count. ssjokg said: Have we ever seen Enforcers doing their job except from FZ anime? It's described in additional material books how the few dozen Enforcers that exist hunt down magi - heretics, both non-designated and designated ones. No one else is mentioned. No word of any oni or mixed blood. Until you can show me a TM work where they seal people who are not in any way related to magecraft, I don't see the point of speculating otherwise. ssjokg said: Atlas would hunt down their own members for breaking their own golden rule. And in such cases the organizations communicate and cooperate if they have mutual goals to hunt down the target. Which is usually to kill the target. A direct violation of jurisdiction is different. |
CapsuleCoreAug 25, 2014 12:05 PM
| Pretty calm episode, except for the ending. Well, and that was as expected though I was hoping that Tokiomi would get killed by ressurected Kariya. But in the end, it was the Archer who betrayed him. But Azoth, well, it's pretty ironic for Kotomine to do it with this dagger Finally they revealed truth behind Grail War and Servants but the way they mentioned it, it was like no big deal (as this was pretty important thing in VN). Still, one little secret still remains but I doubt anyone knows that except for old Einzbern Lord maybe. I hope Kotomine realizes that after telling Gil the truth about servants he would try to kill him in the end. But I guess he already deduced a solution, even before he agreeded to pact with Archer (well, I know what happens but I wonder how they get that over with in anime). Flashback to Kiritsugu's past next time, finally something I can't wait to see. |
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