| For those of you not familiar with Whole Foods, they are a large chain grocery store that focuses on natural/organic/fair-trade/vegetarian-friendly food products, as well as locally grown produce (local to each region, per location). In most American cities, they are the only option as far as natural food stores go. This used to not be the case. There was another large chain of grocery stores with the same ideals, Wild Oats, that threatened Whole Food's market share and their position as the largest chain of natural food stores. That was of course until Whole Foods went after Wild Oats like a rabid dog, and successfully purchased them and shut down their locations or turned them into Whole Foods branches, after much bullying, verbal abuse, and child-like behavior from the Whole Foods CEO. This actually isn't the subject of this topic. You see, here in Portland, the hippie mecca, we have five Whole Foods locations. We also have two Wild Oats, six Trader Joe's (a similar store), Food Fight (a local strictly vegan grocery store), and New Seasons, our local version of Whole Foods, with friendlier employees, cheaper prices, more local options, and nine locations. As you can see, New Seasons dominates our local market. So this, of course, caught Whole Food's attention. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Whole Foods are currently in a legal battle regarding Whole Food's position as having a "natural grocery store" monopoly. So what does Whole Foods do? They use the legal battle as an excuse to subpoena all of New Season's financial records, including confidential documents and business plans. They say they need it for the lawsuit. I call bullshit. Anyway, here is the article from New Season's blog about it. *** the tl;dr version Whole Foods is evil and is trying to become the Wal-Mart of natural grocery stores. If you shop at Whole Foods but have other options in you area, PLEASE opt to support other natural grocery. Otherwise, you are feeding a beast. |
| Why can't they all just be friends? :< |
Drybananna said: Why can't they all just be friends? :< Yea, hold hands, make love songs and talk prety talk. |
| Reminds me of monster cables, but instead of "natural food" it's any company name/product/slogan that has the word "monster" in it. Or maybe those patent trolls who fuck over entrepreneurs too. |
Drybananna said: Why can't they all just be friends? :< Put weed in their tofu. |
| sad |
StephanBlackhawk said: Fuck no. No friend of mine is gettin' mah weed.Drybananna said: Why can't they all just be friends? :< Put weed in there tofu. |
| ...You say Wal-Mart like it's a bad thing. |
| my town is where trader joes started closest one to me so i go there i hardly go |
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| I challenge your portland hippie mechaness to my austin hippie mechaness. More seriously, slightly ironic coming from an Austin based company (for those of you not familiar with it, Austin is a large liberal community with a big focus on promoting unique, small businesses (among many other things)). |
| #dontcare |
| I do grocery shopping at a military commissary or Costco. Go me. |
| go over the border to canada. or go down to the farms (you live in Oregon, there must be farms closeby : P) and buy your food directly from them. |
Drybananna said: Why can't they all just be friends? :< Make love, not war. |
 NOTE: I am a legitimate (meaning usually on-topic and polite) hit-and-run poster. Do not expect me to reply to your reply to my reply. |
Ripaz said: Drybananna said: Why can't they all just be friends? :< Yea, hold hands, make love songs and talk prety talk. NoFC said: Drybananna said: Why can't they all just be friends? :< Make love, not war. True. It's the hippie mecca anyway. It confuses me that the American law has so many places to pick in way to sue everyone and anyone and get confidential information. If someone tried to do it here they would be laughed to death or arrested (or both, which is currently happening) |
 Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| Fuck family run stores. |
| Yeah, screw Whole Foods. I tried buying their mini fruit tarts at least twice and they weren't very fresh tasting. I was expecting better. My local chain grocery store did a better job! ;-p Sounds like they like playing dirty too. As a side note, that's a lot of options.. pretty nice. Trader Joes is the only other option around here. A few very local farm type stores too that I like as well. |
| Since they have stockholders it is their obligation to due such things, no matter how unfair and monopolist these actions may be. Hopefully the organizations that regulate anti-trust policies will be able to maintain competition in our industries. |
| And why should I care? Whole foods is exactly the same thing as Wild Oats as far as I can tell. They can do what they want if they can sell me what I want, that's their business. Oh, and by the way, if small family-owned shops need your biased support to stay open, they suck and they should go out of business. I buy from a store because it provides something of better quality or for a better price or that I can't find somewhere else, not because I think they deserve my money. |
hikkyJan 3, 2009 2:40 PM
hikky said: This is true. Oh, and by the way, if small family-owned shops need your biased support to stay open, they suck and they should go out of business. However, it is the same for mega corporations. If they are going out of business, fucking let them. Please. *COUGHGUESSWHATIAMTALKINGABOUTFUCKINGBAILOUTGRRRRCOUGH* Really, governments should not be giving assistance to any business via tax payers money. Though I have major problems with tax as well, but this is an entirely different story. I'll save you the trouble of taking about politics. (No one likes a right winged libertarian) T_T As for the particular story, Whole Foods shouldn't be able to twist the law to force others out of business. Clearly your portland grocery store has a pretty good thing going and shock--whole foods isn't number one! Why? Because it was cool to shop at whole foods but when it became cool to shop there it became uncool and now it's a corporation which is bad, local good. :O It's called better marketing in Portland, and that's what Whole Foods is trying to reach in and grab. A bit of rambling I prefer to shop at Fat Joe's (Real name: Joe's Farm Market) when it comes to produce. They are a local _little_ grocery store with really good fresh produce at a good price. Yummy! Otherwise I shop at the "Whole Foods" of BC called Thrifties (organic, etc), but a lot lot lot less BIG and less stores (They were recently bought out by someone, which is why I equated them to a sort of whole foods). Just because it's big and Safeway isn't always as good (though sometimes I go there if I am in their parking lot already). |
hikky said: Oh, and by the way, if small family-owned shops need your biased support to stay open, they suck and they should go out of business. As stores like Borders and Barnes and Noble continue to dominate an increasingly competitive booksellers market, independent bookstores are finding it harder than ever just to survive. Yet these locally owned businesses contribute far more to the local economy than retail chains, according to several studies by the American Bookseller Association. Still pretty tragic that they abuse the law like that. Also, to clarify myself from before. http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/monster-call-to-arms http://www.csamuel.org/2008/11/14/patent-trolls-attack-openmoko-project |
| We have Whole Foods here but we've only gone to them once or twice for specific items. And we shop at Wal-Mart but our only other option is Dillon's, and they don't have shit. And this is Wichita. Not some podunk population: 100 town. Never move to Kansas, ever. Okay? :) |
| More like Whore Foods, amirite? Meh, I never got into the whole 'natural' food bullshit. Given the enviroment and the rapid increase in pollution, I really don't think that eating natural food could be that much healthier for you, I mean the air you breathe is going to get you in the end, just like it will get everybody. If you're smart you'll shop at a reasonably priced grocery store that doesn't charge five bucks for an apple, and with the money you saved, buy an oxygen machine and sleep in it. :P Also, if the food that everybody eats that has the 'evil' preservatives is so dangerous, why isn't almost everybody dead? Natural foods are a scam, a scam that many otherwise smart people fall for, although I'm not really sure how paying five hundred bucks every time you go to the grocery store to feed your family is smart. :P Edit: Also, if people are so concerned about your health, why the fuck are they living in the city? |
| I'm back. |
tr1ggers4d said: hikky said: Oh, and by the way, if small family-owned shops need your biased support to stay open, they suck and they should go out of business. As stores like Borders and Barnes and Noble continue to dominate an increasingly competitive booksellers market, independent bookstores are finding it harder than ever just to survive. Yet these locally owned businesses contribute far more to the local economy than retail chains, according to several studies by the American Bookseller Association. This is also true, which is why I always strive to shop locally. Quite frankly I prefer quality over quantity and would rather spend a bit more on one good thing than buy more shitty things. I honestly thing shitty things tend to come from larger corporations, depending. Slowly I am shoving those out of what I spend my money on. I'm starting small. So thing like starbucks I refuse to buy. A Barista's Rant: Their coffee fucking blows shit. Their drinks equal a bit of burnt hot shit, shittily steamed milk and lots of syrup shit. It costs next to nothing to make their shit drinks, and yet you pay more than you should. If you think that some local coffee shop you stumble upon will be "more expensive because it's locally owned," or "could be bad/I don't know what they have OMG" then you're a fucking retard. If you've been paying for "venti sugarfree vanilla non fat extra hot cinnamon latte" and consuming that shit then there is no way some local store can fuck it up too much. Obviously some are better than others and you can't know until you try, but the shitty ones will tend to go out of business. Unless I am wrong and people really do like shit. Maybe. It sure seems that way. Obviously the American government sucks shit at being truly capitalist, as proof by the auto industry. These companies that grow to big CAN FAIL. It's the way it works. You shoot too high and you fall flat on your face. If the market wasn't so controlled and forced new markets could open up, new jobs can replace the old ones. Why are we forcing ourselves to stay in one place? It's illogical. We should have better cars, more fuel efficient, or not even powered by fuel. It's being all contorted and not progressive. No wonder the shit isn't selling anymore!! GRAAAHHHH. ANGRY SY IS ANGRRYYY |
Sick-Bastard said: More like Whore Foods, amirite? Meh, I never got into the whole 'natural' food bullshit. Given the enviroment and the rapid increase in pollution, I really don't think that eating natural food could be that much healthier for you, I mean the air you breathe is going to get you in the end, just like it will get everybody. If you're smart you'll shop at a reasonably priced grocery store that doesn't charge five bucks for an apple, and with the money you saved, buy an oxygen machine and sleep in it. :P Also, if the food that everybody eats that has the 'evil' preservatives is so dangerous, why isn't almost everybody dead? Natural foods are a scam, a scam that many otherwise smart people fall for, although I'm not really sure how paying five hundred bucks every time you go to the grocery store to feed your family is smart. :P Edit: Also, if people are so concerned about your health, why the fuck are they living in the city? Well, they're not going to die instantly of course. I'm all for practicality but there's a lot of disgusting shit in many processed foods. People aren't dying, but they're sick all the time. And just generally unhealthy. And fat. And their teeth are falling out and decaying and full of cavities. And so on. |
| We just got a Whole Foods in my area (where I used to live we already had one) and I had mixed feelings about it. Sure, their generic brand stuff has cheap (relative to the other natural grocer, anyway) organic products but... I guess it's that whole aversion to "big corporations" I seem to have. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I figured Whole Foods was probably doing something shitty. A baseless assumption, sure, but it's how I felt nonetheless - turns out I was right. Good luck saving New Seasons. Since it's so popular in your city, and since your city is a "hippie mecca," do you suppose there could be some kind of organized boycott of WF? Edit: Wrt the local vs. chain store debate. Ideally shopping locally is best, but sometimes you can get screwed that way too. Case in point: I decided that, instead of going to Petsmart to get dog food I'd go to this local store I'd see on my way to the grocery store or whatever. I'm pretty broke, but I can afford dog food. So I go to get what I usually get at Petsmart (a 20lb bag) - there weren't any price tags around, but whatever. The dogfood turned about to be waaay more than I could afford (it cost like $15-$20 more than what I would normally pay) and I had to put it back. The next size down that they had was a 5lb bag, which cost $15. WTF, at Petsmart a 5lb bag costs like $9 and the 20lb bag was $25. So yes, supporting local businesses and the local economy is great. It's also great, on an ethical level, not to shop at a store whose practices you disagree with (and even better if you write them and tell them this). But if the local joint is ripping you off, then forget it. I'm not trying to waste money so I can get off on scoring ~scene~ points because I only shop ~local~ (if that makes sense). |
url_elfJan 3, 2009 6:52 PM
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ScrumYummy said: the tl;dr version Whole Foods is evil and is trying to become the Wal-Mart of natural grocery stores. If you shop at Whole Foods but have other options in you area, PLEASE opt to support other natural grocery. Otherwise, you are feeding a beast. I shop at Trader Joe's by foot, but I love Whole Foods when I decide to drive. While I love you Scrummy, I could give a shit less about aggressive business practices. As a consumer, I only care about the food, and Whole Foods is excellent in that regard. And while I'm sure this will touch a bunch of off-topic bullshit, there's nothing wrong with Walmart, either. |
| I think you guys are kind of misunderstanding the point. I don't want Whole Foods to go out of business. I just don't want them to be the only option. I'm not calling for perma-ban or a boycott on Whole Foods, I'm calling for more support of other options. Once you are down to one option, you are screwed; they can charge whatever they want, treat their employees/customers how they want, and there is nothing else to compare it to because there is no other option. Instead of doing a bunch of quotes I am just going to address points. "You are just shopping at the local store to be trendy. Why else would you pay higher prices?" Okay, first off, you didn't read my post. New Seasons actually has lower prices than Whole Foods (for products of equal quality; they are both high-quality stores). Their employees go above and beyond for customers--I know a New Seasons employee that actually went over to a customer's house to show them how to fillet a fish because they didn't know how. This is why NS is beating out WF in the local market--because they are actually better. Also, about the trendiness factor. I would say that more people shop at Whole Foods just to be trendy. It's a recognizable name, and while they don't actually care about the environment or using natural products, they will tote around those WF bags and talk about going to Whole Foods so that other people will think that they are "trendy." I see middle-aged women do this all the time. One last thing, they don't need my "biased support" to stay open. Obviously. Because I used to not shop there, and hey look at that, they are open and doing well :) (The only reason why I didn't shop there was because the closest locations to where I live are on the other side of the river, and I walk/bike everywhere. So Whole Foods was the closest natural food store option that I had. Other than several farmer's markets, but they are not open every day, all the time--however, I do make it a point to shop there). The reason why they are doing so well is because they really are better than the competition. "Buying from local farmers is better." Yes, I agree. For produce. Unfortunately, there are not always local options for everything on your shopping list. "You say Wal-Mart like it's a bad thing." Because it is. Google it if you want to see all of the arguments against wal-mart. It's not for this discussion here. "Don't move to Kansas." Done! :D "What makes shopping at a local business any better?" If you support your local economy, it supports your local infrastructure. While I don't recommend screwing yourself just to shop local, I do think that it will be better for your community if you have the choice of a local option. "Starbucks sucks!" Yes, they do. Their coffee is nasty. I've been planning on buying a coffee-maker for our breakroom for the longest time now, because our only option for coffee (close to work) is starbucks, and I am tired of drinking it. It is over-priced and gross. url_elf said: Good luck saving New Seasons. Since it's so popular in your city, and since your city is a "hippie mecca," do you suppose there could be some kind of organized boycott of WF? That's probably how it will go. If the enough people here learned what was going on and wrote letters to WF or opted to shop less there and more at New Seasons, then maybe WF will back off (I think the letters will do the most good, because it's our support of New Seasons that is making them the target of Whole Foods in the first place). Although, the owner of NS has already stated that they won't be giving up the documents--they could be fined, and he could go to jail. This is what he had to say about that: "In case anyone is planning on visiting me there, I really love doing the daily Oregonian crossword and also M&M Peanuts." :D |
ScrumYummy said: ..more support of other options. Once you are down to one option, you are screwed; they can charge whatever they want, treat their employees/customers how they want, and there is nothing else to compare it to because there is no other option. :D Bingo! also, T_T @ being forced to go to starbucks. I actually would/have walk an extra 10 minute to avoid them. |
| meh I always was of the opinion that Whole Foods is overpriced trendy shit where snobby people go to be snobby. similar to Apple's marketing practices I should say. back when I lived in Manhattan I had a Whole Foods store like 10 blocks away (too far imo) but I always preferred the Met Food that was 2 blocks away. The one or two times I did go to Whole Foods I was disgusted at the prices they charged and the whole snobby atmosphere that was prevalent similar to, once again, Apple. also this isn't the first time Whole Foods has pulled shady shit like this: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/WebScandalHitsWholeFoods.aspx |
Okamoto_Riku said: Whole foods are ok because they have the carbohydrates for long activities, does whole milk count? :) kei-clone said: meh I always was of the opinion that Whole Foods is overpriced trendy shit where snobby people go to be snobby. similar to Apple's marketing practices I should say. back when I lived in Manhattan I had a Whole Foods store like 10 blocks away (too far imo) but I always preferred the Met Food that was 2 blocks away. The one or two times I did go to Whole Foods I was disgusted at the prices they charged and the whole snobby atmosphere that was prevalent similar to, once again, Apple. also this isn't the first time Whole Foods has pulled shady shit like this: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/WebScandalHitsWholeFoods.aspx I hate you kei-kei. :< Not why I have a mac :< I had never even seen an ad for apple before I got a mac. Also, I lack lap-top to bring around with me to /show/ people "Yeah, I have a mac" |
| I've never even seen a Whole Foods before... though I live in the south so hippies are scarce. |
| I feel kinda left out - I've never even seen a Whole Foods... all we've got here are Greenlife and Earth Fare, and both are relatively small regional companies (3 and 15 locations, respectively). I'm all for supporting local businesses though if the price is comparable and the quality up to par - they tend to be more flexible and care more about their customers, and keeping the money in your local economy rather than funneling it off elsewhere is a nice plus. I generally shop at a place called the Fresh Market though... it's a touch expensive, but well worth it for some things. They don't push the healthy/organic angle so much though... they're more just about quality and draw in more rich people than hippies. I think I'd plan on going to jail though too if I was in the same position as the guy who owns New Seasons. It's rather sad that companies with enough money and lawyers can put so much pressure on the little guys though. I had a buddy whose family ran a tire business for years until UPS misread some sort of invoice, sued them for stealing who knows how many truckloads of tires (that they were actually paid to recycle) and put them under with legal fees. selective_yellow said: I hate you kei-kei. :< Not why I have a mac :< I had never even seen an ad for apple before I got a mac. Also, I lack lap-top to bring around with me to /show/ people "Yeah, I have a mac" He's right though. I mean, sure, there are plenty of good reasons to buy a Mac and plenty of cool people that own them, but Apple gets quite a bit of business from the people who care more about their products being trendy and hip than affordable or useful, etc. Just google "Zunegate" and browse through a bit of the drama that cropped up from some blog posting that Obama was listening to a Zune instead of an iPod - some Apple nuts even went so far as to throw in comments about "wanting their vote back" =P |
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| Well, now speaking seriously... We don't have such a thing as "Whole Foods", but the fight against family stores and the big companies is also great and sad around here. However, unlike this case, our big companies win for being in the central locations, having more variety, more quality and cheaper prices. It is, for us, an hilarious thought, that one "let's sue them so we have their documentation and then we can fuck them harder! Also, they will be arrested for not giving the documentation and we'll get it anyway muahahaha" It's stupid. It's not written in the law "you can't do this because it's idiot", but it's implicit and only the idiots do it. Also, since our law system is not juri based and most judges are reasonable people they would just headdesk and close the case. The fact that a company wants to destroy another is not good enough of a reason to sue somebody in evoluted countries. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
ladyxzeus said: It's not written in the law "you can't do this because it's idiot", but it's implicit and only the idiots do it. Also, since our law system is not juri based and most judges are reasonable people they would just headdesk and close the case. I don't think that whether or not a jury is involved has any bearing on that - it's more that the American legal system has divorced itself entirely from common sense, giving preference to literal interpretations of the law and thus opening itself up to all sorts of ridiculous loopholes and arguments on semantics and the like. And even with a simple open-and-shut case, anyone with enough money can draw it out for ages and kill their opposition with legal fees. |
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Krelian said: ladyxzeus said: It's not written in the law "you can't do this because it's idiot", but it's implicit and only the idiots do it. Also, since our law system is not juri based and most judges are reasonable people they would just headdesk and close the case. I don't think that whether or not a jury is involved has any bearing on that - it's more that the American legal system has divorced itself entirely from common sense, giving preference to literal interpretations of the law and thus opening itself up to all sorts of ridiculous loopholes and arguments on semantics and the like. And even with a simple open-and-shut case, anyone with enough money can draw it out for ages and kill their opposition with legal fees. that. why do you think law firms in America are so rich? |
Krelian said: ladyxzeus said: It's not written in the law "you can't do this because it's idiot", but it's implicit and only the idiots do it. Also, since our law system is not juri based and most judges are reasonable people they would just headdesk and close the case. I don't think that whether or not a jury is involved has any bearing on that - it's more that the American legal system has divorced itself entirely from common sense, giving preference to literal interpretations of the law and thus opening itself up to all sorts of ridiculous loopholes and arguments on semantics and the like. And even with a simple open-and-shut case, anyone with enough money can draw it out for ages and kill their opposition with legal fees. That too. But I beleive that giving "the commoners" the right to decide is a big mistake, especially because people don't know anything. Basing out a decision on preferences of people that are not related to the case, don't have any legal knowledge, just want the "good side to win" (when the real life is absolutely not like that) and can be convinced with sweet words from lawyers does not seem fair for the person with the less verbal lawyer. And then the thing that allows laws to adapt according to the cases that appear is completely random. I only wonder how lawyers work these things out... Maybe they have 100 underlings searching these for them? |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
ladyxzeus said: That too. But I beleive that giving "the commoners" the right to decide is a big mistake, especially because people don't know anything. Basing out a decision on preferences of people that are not related to the case, don't have any legal knowledge, just want the "good side to win" (when the real life is absolutely not like that) and can be convinced with sweet words from lawyers does not seem fair for the person with the less verbal lawyer. And then the thing that allows laws to adapt according to the cases that appear is completely random. I only wonder how lawyers work these things out... Maybe they have 100 underlings searching these for them? giving the proletariat (yes, i get to say it again) the right to decide is well.. democratic. Obviously the democratic system is as ramshackle as can possibly be, but it's democratic nonetheless. Lawyers and politicians are one and the same in America. They both need, money and public support. the laws don't adapt, it's just that they're not followed. If a lawyer is able to convince the public, even though the defendant's client has obviously comitted the crime, then the client will be innocent. America is a logocracy. |
| I live in a democracy, people are allowed to choose a person to rule above them and that's it. xD Till now the only Americanish case I've ever followed on my national tv involves a large international pedophile group, politicians, famous people and all that jazz. Still, nobody is trying to prove the charged people innocent. They are trying to reduce the sentence, while the "court" is trying to raise it. xD Fist fight for the past... 6 years? Maybe 7? Not sure. The American system is, in the end, really similar to Somalia. Both have laws that are not obeyed and that's it. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
Krelian said: He's right though. I mean, sure, there are virtually no reasons to buy a Mac, yet plenty of really stupid people buy them anyway, but Apple gets quite a bit of business from the sheep who care more about their products being trendy and hip than affordable or useful, etc. Fixed. |
| I'm back. |
| I dunno, I might actually consider buying one if I was doing much with audio/video editing or print graphics and such. They do have their strong points, I think. But let's save that whole debate for another thread, shall we? |
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Krelian said: I dunno, I might actually consider buying one if I was doing much with audio/video editing or print graphics and such. They do have their strong points, I think. But let's save that whole debate for another thread, shall we? Sure.. Sure... |
| I'm back. |
Krelian said: selective_yellow said: I hate you kei-kei. :< Not why I have a mac :< I had never even seen an ad for apple before I got a mac. Also, I lack lap-top to bring around with me to /show/ people "Yeah, I have a mac" He's right though. I mean, sure, there are plenty of good reasons to buy a Mac and plenty of cool people that own them, but Apple gets quite a bit of business from the people who care more about their products being trendy and hip than affordable or useful, etc. Just google "Zunegate" and browse through a bit of the drama that cropped up from some blog posting that Obama was listening to a Zune instead of an iPod - some Apple nuts even went so far as to throw in comments about "wanting their vote back" =P Firstly, hahahaha "Zunegate" is a pretty funny name. Never heard of this before. That is absurd. Zunes are better than iPods, depending on what you want. Especially for the price, as iPods cost too much. Also note: the iTouch is a stupid waste of money. I do have an iPod, which was a gift. It's compatible with my computer, and it's luckily just the 80gb classic, without any fancy shit. It works just fine, but I would rather of purchased something less expensive. (Note: I stayed away from mp3 players entirely until a year ago. I stubbornly supported CDs! Ahaha.) I also realize he is right, a lot of people get macs because they are edit: America is a republic, not a democracy....... Democracy is really inefficient and there are many people who are retarded--which is where I believe the whole "jury system sucks" comment was coming from. Jury does not really equal democracy either. :) |
SY_IS_DEAD_IRLJan 4, 2009 10:57 PM
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selective_yellow said: edit: America is a republic, not a democracy....... Democracy is really inefficient and there are many people who are retarded--which is where I believe the whole "jury system sucks" comment was coming from. Jury does not really equal democracy either. :) Haha, thought so. Have been trying really hard, by reading documents and stuff, to understand how America works, but I guess it's to sophisticated to me. That's why democracy is half-smart. Rights to people except for the right to decide important things. Those are given to the pigs. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| In effect, the people are free to vote for representatives who then make decisions and vote for them on the various issues at hand. Of course, in many cases those elected officials don't represent the people so much as themselves and their friends and financiers. Democracy is overrated though, as most people aren't informed and impartial enough to make decent decisions on most issues. And with a monarchy or dictatorship it's only ever going to be as good as its leader, and only for as long as he can manage to keep from being deposed. I guess I'm rambling now, so I'll stop after one more tidbit. The nice thing about America is that the government has to keep people believing that their opinions matter. While that may not be the case in truth, it does mean that they can't go too overboard in taking advantage of the general public. They need to make sure people can live somewhat comfortably so they'll keep working and consuming and paying taxes and such. |
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| Where I live you would have to drive over an hour to get to Whole Foods, but they're planning on opening one on the other side of town, of so I heard. I don't think it will kill either the small local chain or the other independant stores it will be competing with because 1) it'll be across town from most of them, where the (university) students can't get to it easily and 2) the local ones have a lot of support around here. Not to mention that some of those local stores simply do certain things Whole Foods doesn't - one of them has a great selection of bulk spices, medicinal herbs, and teas, another has a fantastic bulk section besides those items, including bulk (fresh-ground) peanut butter, and bulk vanilla extract and olive oil, and all of them have tons of great local products that I'm not sure Whole Foods will bother with. All of them are cheaper in terms of some products than Whole Foods is, especially the biggest one, which periodically has great sales on non-perishables, and has particularly good bulk prices. At any rate, I'm hoping Whole Foods won't drive these stores out of business. It's a tough market in some ways, because they would have to show people that they were better than these old favorites. In my hometown on the other hand, they had an easier time, because there was no similar store close by, and people wanted to buy organic and so forth. |
ScrumYummy said: I think you guys are kind of misunderstanding the point. I don't want Whole Foods to go out of business. I just don't want them to be the only option. I'm not calling for perma-ban or a boycott on Whole Foods, I'm calling for more support of other options. Once you are down to one option, you are screwed; they can charge whatever they want, treat their employees/customers how they want, and there is nothing else to compare it to because there is no other option. The problem is this. Suppose Whole Foods successfully drives every competitor out of town, goes berserk, triples prices across the board, cattle brands their employees and makes their customers worship their CEO. How long would it take for another company to open a similar store with reasonable prices and policies, which would make a killing, since the Whole Foods I describe would probably be pretty unpopular? I would bet not long at all. To address your point on Wal-mart, let me just say this. Every single person working at Wal-mart does so because it makes them better off than working any other job they are able to get or staying home all day. Otherwise they'd be working that better job or staying home. Wal-mart does not need to coerce people to work there. Hundreds of thousands of people do so voluntarily. I have no idea how this can possibly be construed as bad. Similarly, millions of people voluntarily shop at Wal-mart. Voluntarily. That is, millions of people are better off because they can shop at Wal-mart. Otherwise they'd take their business somewhere else. How can making millions of people happier than they would be without Wal-mart be a bad thing? |
selective_yellow said: America is a republic, not a democracy....... Democracy is really inefficient and there are many people who are retarded--which is where I believe the whole "jury system sucks" comment was coming from. Jury does not really equal democracy either. :) The US is actually a democratic republic. At any rate, you're not quite correct about democracies, either. Classical "democracy" in Athens meant 500 citizens among 40,000 residents. Nowadays, many would consider that an oligarchy, but regardless, it was still very much efficient. And while there are indeed many problems with "democracy" or what most peoples' concept of the word is, free markets and capitalism are not among them. Take it from someone with a degree in the subject, heh. Solanio said: To address your point on Wal-mart, let me just say this. Every single person working at Wal-mart does so because it makes them better off than working any other job they are able to get or staying home all day. Otherwise they'd be working that better job or staying home. Wal-mart does not need to coerce people to work there. Hundreds of thousands of people do so voluntarily. I have no idea how this can possibly be construed as bad. Similarly, millions of people voluntarily shop at Wal-mart. Voluntarily. That is, millions of people are better off because they can shop at Wal-mart. Otherwise they'd take their business somewhere else. How can making millions of people happier than they would be without Wal-mart be a bad thing? I approve this message. |
ShaolinRibiero said: The US is actually a democratic republic. At any rate, you're not quite correct about democracies, either. Classical "democracy" in Athens meant 500 citizens among 40,000 residents. Nowadays, many would consider that an oligarchy, but regardless, it was still very much efficient. And while there are indeed many problems with "democracy" or what most peoples' concept of the word is, free markets and capitalism are not among them. Take it from someone with a degree in the subject, heh. for the sake of.. myself i disagree. in classical athens, between 10 and 15% of the population was citizen, (20-35 thousand in the fifth or fourth century i believe), hardly an oligarchy. Athens was a limited direct democracy. A classical example of an oligarchy would be republican rome, which was controlled by the patricians. enough for history. for politics now. for anyone arguing against a democracy, one should remember that no government is perfect, and least of all, efficient.Also, the judicial system is America is more democratic than in most other democracies. It might be less efficient (although efficiency in this case is a somewhat ambiguous term), but you cannot call it un-democratic, as some here have said. economics, yay. in the long run, whole foods will not be able to handle their monopoly well if they keep up high prices. If they are keeping in business though, it would mean that the high prices are truly cutting edge competitive, because if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to hold onto a monopoly in organic foods in a free market economy such as the USA. |
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