| I watched this dude a long time ago, and I'm sorry but he's totally right. Most anime fans piss me off too because they act so ridiculous and annoying about anime. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but chill the fuck out. American cartoons and comics are good too. That's a little off topic, I know, but his video touched on that as well. But for everyone claiming that it's all because of anime's budgets, then I think you need to watch his third video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwYfJQ5MosE&feature=related Somewhere in there he touches upon that too, and again, he's right. Maybe if they didn't make like 20+ anime every season, 90% of which (if not more in recent times) fucking blow, then they could focus on making LESS anime, but BETTER anime. |
∞      ∞ |
Monkey_D_Luffy said: I watched this dude a long time ago, and I'm sorry but he's totally right. Most anime fans piss me off too because they act so ridiculous and annoying about anime. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but chill the fuck out. American cartoons and comics are good too. That's a little off topic, I know, but his video touched on that as well. But for everyone claiming that it's all because of anime's budgets, then I think you need to watch his third video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwYfJQ5MosE&feature=related Somewhere in there he touches upon that too, and again, he's right. Maybe if they didn't make like 20+ anime every season, 90% of which (if not more in recent times) fucking blow, then they could focus on making LESS anime, but BETTER anime. I really feel bad for the Japanese animators who are really skilled and work their butts off to create great animation. People just clump them together in an overgeneralization about "anime being poorly animated," because they're unable or too lazy to discern good animation within the market from bad animation. Or even shows with good animation from other shows with lesser animation, much less the studios that produce them. But the funny thing is they love to pull double standards and use Disney films as a normal example of US animation. Disney films = American animation and your typical harem anime = Japanese animation. Right, I get it. Makes perfect sense. |
Monkey_D_Luffy said: Yup. He's trolling the idiots who consider nothing else outside of anime. I like his criticisms and it's mostly deserved, but he does overgeneralize a bit too much...I watched this dude a long time ago, and I'm sorry but he's totally right. Most anime fans piss me off too because they act so ridiculous and annoying about anime. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but chill the fuck out. American cartoons and comics are good too. For example he admits that everybody uses limited animation but because (lower budget) anime movies use more than high budget Disney features, the whole of anime is somehow inferior as a whole to all non-japanese animation. Also, Disney employs tons of animators from around the globe including japan, with a lot of their work draws inspiration from anime as well..... so it really muddles his argument. It's easy to cherry pick comparisons to support either side, but the truth is both have good and bad examples so it's a waste of time. I still think anime is more fun to watch most of the time, in the same subjective way that I like listening to rock more than hip hop. It doesn't mean I have to rant about hip hop because somebody said the rock I listen to sucks. Monkey_D_Luffy said: That's a little off topic, I know, but his video touched on that as well. But for everyone claiming that it's all because of anime's budgets, then I think you need to watch his third video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwYfJQ5MosE&feature=related Somewhere in there he touches upon that too, and again, he's right. Maybe if they didn't make like 20+ anime every season, 90% of which (if not more in recent times) fucking blow, then they could focus on making LESS anime, but BETTER anime. saka said: I think I'd rather have 50 small unique studios than one Disney, thanks. Sure better animation wouldn't hurt, but when more money is involved the corporate scrutiny increases as well -- and that stifles original risky story ideas. Corporate animation only takes safe bets and follows formulas, serving out the same watered down non-controversial shit over and over again.... in the US it's fairy tails and talking animals, and in Japan it's shounen and moeblobs... but the latter doesn't seem afraid to experiment and even the formulas are a bit more complex. The diverse content and the big money are interrelated. The reason japanese animation is so diverse is because it's not monopolized by a couple big studios who prioritize profit over innovation. As piracy and economy take bites out of the smaller studios though you may see a move in that direction anyway. Most of my favorite anime are not the highest budget ones though... |
 I am a banana. |
| About the "LOW BUDGET" excuse: I DON'T think it's a good excuse, if a studio, for example...... SHAFT!!! doesn't have enough money to properly make an anime with fluid animation and instead decides to do frames where no one moves for a full minute....then the solution is SIMPLE..... MAKE....LESS....ANIME, even though most fans would disagree with this notion, I'm sure people would've loved to have seen BAKEMONOGATARI properly.... Here is the simple fact.....Bakemonogatari was great because of the story, characters, and "style". However the "animation" get's an F, and even though most people won't care about that, it is a perfect example of what this guy is talking about. If Shaft would have focused more of their budget on Bakemonogatari instead of doing shitty anime such as MARIA HOLIC and NATSU NO ARASHI, we would've witnessed better animation. I would gladly take ONE great anime, than 3 mediocre anime. |
alexcampos said: About the "LOW BUDGET" excuse: I DON'T think it's a good excuse, if a studio, for example...... SHAFT!!! doesn't have enough money to properly make an anime with fluid animation and instead decides to do frames where no one moves for a full minute....then the solution is SIMPLE..... MAKE....LESS....ANIME, even though most fans would disagree with this notion, I'm sure people would've loved to have seen BAKEMONOGATARI properly.... Here is the simple fact.....Bakemonogatari was great because of the story, characters, and "style". However the "animation" get's an F, and even though most people won't care about that, it is a perfect example of what this guy is talking about. If Shaft would have focused more of their budget on Bakemonogatari instead of doing shitty anime such as MARIA HOLIC and NATSU NO ARASHI, we would've witnessed better animation. I would gladly take ONE great anime, than 3 mediocre anime. I re-watch one scene from Bakemonogatari because of the great animation. And not because of the band-aid, either. ... The thing is, timing is what makes animation interesting, not necessarily frame count. This is the basic principle of what makes a good animation. |
TitanXL said: It just gets a bit old when 99% of American animation isn't 'trying to be more detailed art-wise. Yes, I know Kells isn't American, but still. Look at CN's current offering, I think 'not trying to look good' is a tired excuse since they've been using it for almost twenty years now for just about every show. Simple backgrounds and geometric forms is the standard, not a unique, outstanding art style. Okay, I want to ask a few questions so I can properly understand what you're arguing from your perspective (and yes, your answers are relavant to me in case you're curious. Maybe not to you or anyone else, but relevant to me). First of all, what kind of experience in terms of learning and practicing art in general do you have, if you have any? What I mean is does your knowledge extend to just a high school art class or do you practice drawing real-life observations in your sketchbook? Or maybe you took a life drawing class or constantly studied from art-based books? Like do you attend an art college and have taken any particular courses? That sort of thing. The second question I want to ask is have you learned or attempt to learn any information about the process of television and movie production, like say writing a script or pitching a story or doing storyboards? Do you learn any of that stuff from say books, or blogs or podcasts and what-not? |
CottonCandyLover said: some CN shows may not be detailed like anime, but they are visually appealing nonetheless. and i think american animation [via CN] also tends to focus on how rich the colors are, whereas i think anime is more toned down in terms of color in a lot of cases. I agree with you. CN (and also Nick) are very busy today with the colors and the design of the characters instead of the plot because they think about a brand and merchandise around. I miss the old cartoons of their both channels, in there, also the colors, also the character designs and also the plot played a good act. Animes, if you are asking me, aren't that busy with how rich the colors are and the character designs because the main part here is the story. Same here is manga. It doesn't matter how ugly the characters, the story here is playing a main role. |
 And that's it. Na-no-ne/De-aru/Relo XD |
| The video in the first post was a little long, so I only watched about half of it... and I'm too lazy to read through all the post in this thread, but I'm still going to say something, with a good point backing it up and all that jazz. I'm an art history major with a focus on Japanese art, so I know quite a bit about this stuff. I actually took a Japanese film class last quarter. So... sure in some anime the "limited animation" maybe just laziness or a lack of quality, but there probably also just as many anime that use limit the animation because it is the Japanese style/way of doing things. Throughout history Japanese art has majorly been about showing the essence of something, conveying an idea or on emotion, without the huge amount of detail often seen in Westen art. Take, for example, ink and especially ink splatter paintings. I have also noticed that the pace and style of Japanese films is also similar to a lot of Japanese animation. The camera moves very slowly, focuses on one area for a while (sometimes an insignificant area), the actions of the people are also not wildly animated because that is the Japanese mindset. I hope I wasn't too all over the place and made a point... If not, I'm sorry, but it's too late and I'm way too tired and lazy to turn this into an essay. |
astronomical said: The video in the first post was a little long, so I only watched about half of it... and I'm too lazy to read through all the post in this thread, but I'm still going to say something, with a good point backing it up and all that jazz. I'm an art history major with a focus on Japanese art, so I know quite a bit about this stuff. I actually took a Japanese film class last quarter. So... sure in some anime the "limited animation" maybe just laziness or a lack of quality, but there probably also just as many anime that use limit the animation because it is the Japanese style/way of doing things. Throughout history Japanese art has majorly been about showing the essence of something, conveying an idea or on emotion, without the huge amount of detail often seen in Westen art. Take, for example, ink and especially ink splatter paintings. I have also noticed that the pace and style of Japanese films is also similar to a lot of Japanese animation. The camera moves very slowly, focuses on one area for a while (sometimes an insignificant area), the actions of the people are also not wildly animated because that is the Japanese mindset. I hope I wasn't too all over the place and made a point... If not, I'm sorry, but it's too late and I'm way too tired and lazy to turn this into an essay. I'm glad you made a point about limited animation. People seem to be using it in a negative context, but it's just a type of animation, rather than the fact that it being limited as a medium. In fact, you probably require more skill to achieve the same feel and proper action with fewer frames. This is one thing I appreciate about (good) Japanese animation: they focus on getting good compositions using complex character models performing interesting actions (I'd like to find someone who can animate Gurren Lagann doing complex movement in space...I think it would fry most animators' brains who are used to using simple, organic models), and put in just enough frames to achieve the right "feeling" of weightiness with correct timing and spacing. Some have you might have seen this, but it's not like Disney is clean of cutting corners, either. |
TitanXL said: jal90 said: But The secret of Kells is not even trying to be more detailed and all, in fact it's trying to emulate medieval art and thus the geometric forms and the simplicity of the backgrounds with the reinforcement of the 2D look. I think some differences must be made when we have in account how a show tries to look like and not set a global standard of quality. It just gets a bit old when 99% of American animation isn't 'trying to be more detailed art-wise. Yes, I know Kells isn't American, but still. Look at CN's current offering, I think 'not trying to look good' is a tired excuse since they've been using it for almost twenty years now for just about every show. Simple backgrounds and geometric forms is the standard, not a unique, outstanding art style. I do like that story about the Revolutionary Girl Utena person saying as such when they visited America and saw a billboard for Powerpuff Girls and were shocked to see how much it cost to make and said 'It cost that much but looks like THAT? I'm insisting on the point, however: The drawing, while simple and geometric, is there to serve an aesthetic purpose; the style can't be replaced with any other because it makes a constant reference on what the story is getting to tell us. It emulates the illustrations of a medieval book. Anyway, how much of the standard is the drawing of the scenarios? If simple, I don't think it's that stylized and unique in its way in many other shows. The fact that it looks simple doesn't hide the even most important fact that there are strong aesthetic reasons for using it; there is an authorial intention to express something with the drawing and this can't be improved with the addition of shades or three-dimensional forms, because the artistic message it carries would be severely damaged. We have to put more variables on the table than just a linear scale of background complexity or fluidity of movements. The secret of Kells is not the result of having an incompetent artist or animator, but an author's idea that actually fits the context and wasn't intended to be in other way. About the budget, I said and saka further explained that it's actually low, specially when we compare with the big animated studios and even some anime series. |
Fui said: To be fair though that's only one scene a sea of single-keyframe cuts, which was delayed until long after the series should have ended. I'm pretty sure there is more animation in the OP/ED's they made than all the episodes combined -- so perhaps that's a better example.alexcampos said: the solution is SIMPLE..... MAKE....LESS....ANIME I re-watch one scene from Bakemonogatari because of the great animation. I've already argued the budget reasons since the first pages of this topic, but just to reiterate..... if SHAFT only put out one anime a season they would eventually invest too much in a flop and go bankrupt. Small studios can't afford to put all their eggs in one basket, and while in extreme cases like SHAFT's it can get annoying it's still debatable whether it would be better to shift the quality/quantity tradeoff. I just really think that further corporatizing anime suffocates it, and all we'd see is more generic crap. Beautifully animated generic crap -- oh hi Disney. jal90 said: At the same time though, art style is consciously used to cover up small budgets. It's the same kind of thing as Bakemonogatari above... SHAFT makes a radical minimal style out of what is essentially a slideshow of character faces and text, but it's to cover their tiny budget and help them make deadlines. It's not like only Japan does this.... works like Spongebob and Futurama etc are no different.The drawing, while simple and geometric, is there to serve an aesthetic purpose; the style can't be replaced with any other because it makes a constant reference on what the story is getting to tell us. It emulates the illustrations of a medieval book. As many people have pointed out though it doesn't really matter to most viewers that a series does not have high technical quality. They only care if that animation is enough to convey the ideas and quirks in the story. SHAFT appeals to a niche who really care more about Shinbou trolling and dark humor than how much an arm moves in cut 32. Similarly, tons of people really enjoyed Secret of Kells for what it is and the art style is innovative for the reasons jal90 mentions. Would it have been more awesome as a $100 million Disney feature..... probably, but it would have been a very different movie. I also don't think that Futurama should be redone in anime style with perfect light and shadow -- just enjoy the show. |
I am a banana. |
Hypeathon said: Okay, I want to ask a few questions so I can properly understand what you're arguing from your perspective (and yes, your answers are relavant to me in case you're curious. Maybe not to you or anyone else, but relevant to me). First of all, what kind of experience in terms of learning and practicing art in general do you have, if you have any? What I mean is does your knowledge extend to just a high school art class or do you practice drawing real-life observations in your sketchbook? Or maybe you took a life drawing class or constantly studied from art-based books? Like do you attend an art college and have taken any particular courses? That sort of thing. I'm not an artist. The second question I want to ask is have you learned or attempt to learn any information about the process of television and movie production, like say writing a script or pitching a story or doing storyboards? Do you learn any of that stuff from say books, or blogs or podcasts and what-not? Sure, I've done that; I'm more of a writer than an artist, won a state competition with one of my essays one time, though I've mostly given up on that since I wanted to make a show, but the show would never fly in America due to it not being about superheroes or children's comedy, and I'm not delusional enough to think I can move to Japan and make it big or anything. jal90 said: The drawing, while simple and geometric, is there to serve an aesthetic purpose; the style can't be replaced with any other because it makes a constant reference on what the story is getting to tell us. It emulates the illustrations of a medieval book. Some gimmicky opening sequence or transitions doesn't seem enough to justify it; sort of like those awful motion comics for DC/Marvel that just animate the panels of a comic - that's what they're going for, but it doesn't make it good. Problem Solverz looks the way it does for artist reasoning of using Flash in it's raw form, and I couldn't care less if it's for artistic reasons; I still think the art is a load of bollocks. For once, how about we get a creator with their artists reasoning being for 'it looks good' for a change? I found Kells boring and somewhat pointless like I do most Western kid's movies. I'd rather watch Twelve Kingdoms or Claymore for my 'medieval' fix, and found those much more entertaining products. Though I will say I googled some old medieval paintings in books, and they still looked better than Kells. |
TitanXL said: jal90 said: The drawing, while simple and geometric, is there to serve an aesthetic purpose; the style can't be replaced with any other because it makes a constant reference on what the story is getting to tell us. It emulates the illustrations of a medieval book. Some gimmicky opening sequence or transitions doesn't seem enough to justify it; sort of like those awful motion comics for DC/Marvel that just animate the panels of a comic - that's what they're going for, but it doesn't make it good. Problem Solverz looks the way it does for artist reasoning of using Flash in it's raw form, and I couldn't care less if it's for artistic reasons; I still think the art is a load of bollocks. For once, how about we get a creator with their artists reasoning being for 'it looks good' for a change? I found Kells boring and somewhat pointless like I do most Western kid's movies. I'd rather watch Twelve Kingdoms or Claymore for my 'medieval' fix, and found those much more entertaining products. Though I will say I googled some old medieval paintings in books, and they still looked better than Kells. No, no, this is not exactly where I want to take the discussion. I am not here to argue if The secret of Kells is art or not. The perception of art is a subjective experience, I for example don't like the drawing and animation of Waltz with Bashir, so for me there is not art there... at least I don't see it. There is an effort and there is a clear line followed by an author to make its work look in some way, but I, as a spectator, don't like the final result and am not -say- filled with its beauty. I don't even care at this point if Kells is good or not. We can discuss it at other thread. Just to say anyway, I like it but would not put the movie exactly among my favorites. What I have been trying to say is that there has to be some perspective when judging and comparing shows whose intentions are not in the very least equal. And the reason for this was the image where a "TV budget" and a "movie budget" (a sloppily chosen "movie budget", however :P) were compared. If you want to compare what Seirei no Moribito (is that the name of the anime?) achieves with another work, use something that is trying to drive to the same point. It's not that the anime and Kells are exactly matching in their purpose. Kells' is -or at least looks- more simple? Yes. I didn't deny that. But it's like that because the author was trying to communicate something with this form. Look, at an example of simple animation taken to an extreme level: the shorts of Don Hertzfeldt. Do you think his imagery and comedy would work that well if the drawing or effects were more detailed? The author is clearly taking advantage from the visual simplicity, what our eyes catch, to reinforce the inventiveness -and probably make it more unexpected- of the writing and situations. And so many examples like this. Of course that doesn't make alone an animation good. One of the basic things to find something good is enjoying it, and I can understand if you don't like nor find the art in The secret of Kells. But I think we must be able to make an important difference and not mistake different artistic intentions -even if they imply a more simple-looking style than other show's- for lack of talent or waste of resources. And, of course, avoid the comparisons between shows that at the very first point were not meant to represent their reality in the same way. |
jal90Jun 15, 2011 1:09 PM
saka said: Fui said: To be fair though that's only one scene a sea of single-keyframe cuts, which was delayed until long after the series should have ended. I'm pretty sure there is more animation in the OP/ED's they made than all the episodes combined -- so perhaps that's a better example.alexcampos said: the solution is SIMPLE..... MAKE....LESS....ANIME I re-watch one scene from Bakemonogatari because of the great animation. Yes, the OPs also were surprisingly well-animated for SHAFT. I don't keep track of who's in charge of which cuts, but I assume a lot of the work was freelance'd to key animators. I could be wrong, though, but I don't exactly have a ton of faith in SHAFT's in-house animation team. |
| My point though is that you can find good and bad animation everywhere you look~ |
I am a banana. |
saka said: I don't think this can be emphasized enough. A lot of fans believe in the false dichotomy that an anime studio can either consciously produce a lot of mediocre stuff or, if they so chose, focus on one or two high-quality items. The real dichotomy usually is, considering their razor-thin margins, produce a lot of marketable stuff as cheaply as possible or go out of business. I've already argued the budget reasons since the first pages of this topic, but just to reiterate..... if SHAFT only put out one anime a season they would eventually invest too much in a flop and go bankrupt. Small studios can't afford to put all their eggs in one basket, and while in extreme cases like SHAFT's it can get annoying it's still debatable whether it would be better to shift the quality/quantity tradeoff. I normally abhor comparing Japanese studios to traditional American ones, but when I do, it's almost a wonder some Japanese studios are even able to function and survive, much less make a product that some feel should be on a equal technical level. I understand visual comparisons are shaky and circumstantial at best, but let's take a little look: That's really in jest, of course, especially since most subcontract like mad, but only half-jest since we tend to compare the Japanese studios, almost by habit, to Disney, Warner Brothers, and the like, when in reality most are a completely different animal, both in size and financial security. As for the technical side to it, who knows. I grew up watching the technical prowess of Hannah-Barbera, Ruby-Spears, and Filmation, so the first time I saw actual light and shadow properly used in Robotech I thought I had hit the jackpot. I am a little skeptical of the lack of motion assertion, however, since one could extend the argument that since "motion pictures" are supposed to move, the new Transformers movie will be a more correctly constructed film than any by Kubrick. |
  |
| Well, at least Gainax moved recently...lol. They totally vandalized the place before they left. The amount of paper they boxed was ridiculous. |
| He has some interesting points, to be honest. Now, is it going to make me dislike anime? No. Is it going to make me analyse it more? Probably not. About the attention to detail thing though... has he not seen a Ghibli movie? At least this guy at least has a clue about what he's talking about, unlike him |
 "It's just...a bad dream! Wake up, wake up...!" |
| you do realize that the above user's only three youtube uploads are trolling rant videos right? ...he's not even good at it. At any rate it's not relevant~ |
I am a banana. |
TitanXL said: I'm not an artist. Sure, I've done that; I'm more of a writer than an artist, won a state competition with one of my essays one time, though I've mostly given up on that since I wanted to make a show, but the show would never fly in America due to it not being about superheroes or children's comedy, and I'm not delusional enough to think I can move to Japan and make it big or anything. Okay, that helps me understanding things. Here's where I'm getting at. You've made it perfectly clear that you're biased for Japanese animation and thinks that whatever Japan makes is more likely to turn to gold while America churns in something that feels not for your age and your age only or is too afraid to be edgy and diverse to such an extreme that TV networks want to risk offending the many cultuires in American society. Maybe that's not exactly what you mean, but you're not the first person I've seen who express that way. What I am bothered with though is the sense of being closeminded about American animation. It's fine if you're not a fan of it, I can't convince you to be. But when it gets to the point where you not only have seen way more of anime than American animation, but are more willing to be observant about anime and study the themes and intentions about anime and how it's made, while you "skim" through and generalize American animation as being this and only this, that's when I get annoyed. Especially if you're preaching your opinion everywhere as a gospel truth and yet haven't practice or learned enough of the medium and the process of it to make an opinion. And for all I know you may think that none of that matters to you to know what makes good animation or not. But regardless, it's really becoming a pet peeve of mine. ______________________ Anyway, I've been meaning to express something about how animation from either region can generally be after I listened to this episode of the "Speaking of Animation" Podcast recently. The host along with the guests who have worked on a few animation studios over the years basically had a discussion about what to each of them is considered good comedy and many opinions overlapped. What I learned after listening to that podcast is that what generally makes good comedy is timing and putting "holds" after a punchline so your audience can absorb the joke for a moment. Another thing was knowing what a certain character with a certain personality in a show would say or do in that scene that helps distinct him/her from the rest of the cast in a show. None of which I feel is executed quite as much in anime. Not to say it doesn't happen, but still. I also feel that the animation and what is emphasized in it depending on both the scene and the characters does play a factor in comedy. I've noticed several times in the thread that whether the animation is "good or bad" doesn't matter in the least compared to the story, which implies to me that there's no uniqueness with what animation can do that comics live-action, television/films can't and that emphasis on emotion or gesture is simply throwaway. My response to that is that yes, animation isn't AS vital as the story being told, but it CAN significantly help, especially in comedy where more than telling a story, you're relying on watching how the characters act and interact to see how the audience laughes. This is something that is just lacking in sooo many anime shows vs a majority of American animation (not all American animation for the record) and much of it is a result of the animation in anime being so limited. And it worries me that so many anime fans are oblivious to that. For the record, I don't personally believe that "less" animation equals "bad" animation. But when I say, see any character in an anime act angry by giving a vein pop at the back of their head just so the animators don't have to draw mouth flaps and that character is different in personality from other characters in previous shows and yet emit the same exact expression the same exact type of scene, that's when it's being really cheap to me. Not only that but, when a studio does certain shows with main characters that act the same way like J.C Staff and their recycled "voiced by Rie Kugimiya, female tsundere types" for example, hardly anything is done animation wise to emphasis one from another. They don't go, "hey, let's emphasize the animation on Aria's bashfulness a certain way to distinct her from when Taiga gets bashful or when Shana gets bashful," or whatever. That would really tempt me to laugh and how bashful this character is versus the last character I just watched! When you watch enough anime, you can't help help but see the same 6-8 types of expressions, gestures, scenes, and even dialogue repeated at least at least a couple of times every season. And all it does is make me more bored of watching than anime I want to be. And that's one of the several things that honestly concerns me about the Japanese animation industry when they recycling the same content the same way. I get it's all the be cost/time-efficient and for studios to keep their heads above water, but they need to do SOMETHING if they want to make their content better than just being run-of the mill, animation-wise. |
HypeathonJun 15, 2011 6:10 PM
Fui said: Thanks!astronomical said: The video in the first post was a little long, so I only watched about half of it... and I'm too lazy to read through all the post in this thread, but I'm still going to say something, with a good point backing it up and all that jazz. I'm an art history major with a focus on Japanese art, so I know quite a bit about this stuff. I actually took a Japanese film class last quarter. So... sure in some anime the "limited animation" maybe just laziness or a lack of quality, but there probably also just as many anime that use limit the animation because it is the Japanese style/way of doing things. Throughout history Japanese art has majorly been about showing the essence of something, conveying an idea or on emotion, without the huge amount of detail often seen in Westen art. Take, for example, ink and especially ink splatter paintings. I have also noticed that the pace and style of Japanese films is also similar to a lot of Japanese animation. The camera moves very slowly, focuses on one area for a while (sometimes an insignificant area), the actions of the people are also not wildly animated because that is the Japanese mindset. I hope I wasn't too all over the place and made a point... If not, I'm sorry, but it's too late and I'm way too tired and lazy to turn this into an essay. I'm glad you made a point about limited animation. People seem to be using it in a negative context, but it's just a type of animation, rather than the fact that it being limited as a medium. In fact, you probably require more skill to achieve the same feel and proper action with fewer frames. This is one thing I appreciate about (good) Japanese animation: they focus on getting good compositions using complex character models performing interesting actions (I'd like to find someone who can animate Gurren Lagann doing complex movement in space...I think it would fry most animators' brains who are used to using simple, organic models), and put in just enough frames to achieve the right "feeling" of weightiness with correct timing and spacing. I'm just gonna come back and add something now that I'm awake. Pretty much what I was trying to say is that animation is an artform, it's not suppose to be like real life. It's suppose to represent real life in the way that the animator choses to do so. It would be pretty much impossible for animation to have all the details that real life has anyways. You'd need a ton of time and money to do that. Some artist and animators chose to portray real life with as much detail as possible while others with as little detail as possible. Japanese art and in turn film and animation have a tendency to be less detail and more conceptual than Western art/film/animation. |
| astronomical - I appreciate your perspective on the issue. I have noticed that (good) Japanese animators really care about design, interest and appeal. Even to the most fundamental level of shape language. Regarding other troll videos - hm, it's not worth (my) time to listen to people who have no understanding of...well, anything. If one had to consider everyone's opinion on the matter, regardless of how clueless he is on a subject, one would die from old age before reaching a conclusion. Those are best filtered entirely imo. I would much rather spend my time listening to someone with an informed opinion through either experience or greater understanding through personal research stemming from genuine interest, not someone who just feels like telling the world through youtube how he doesn't like something. |
Fui said: I think mal needs a "like" button.Regarding other troll videos - hm, it's not worth (my) time to listen to people who have no understanding of...well, anything. If one had to consider everyone's opinion on the matter, regardless of how clueless he is on a subject, one would die from old age before reaching a conclusion. Those are best filtered entirely imo. I would much rather spend my time listening to someone with an informed opinion through either experience or greater understanding through personal research stemming from genuine interest, not someone who just feels like telling the world through youtube how he doesn't like something. |
Onibokusu said: Fui said: If one had to consider everyone's opinion on the matter, regardless of how clueless he is on a subject, one would die from old age before reaching a conclusion. Those are best filtered entirely imo. I would much rather spend my time listening to someone with an informed opinion through either experience or greater understanding through personal research stemming from genuine interest, not someone who just feels like telling the world through youtube how he doesn't like something. Remember, your first sentence response to this topic was: Fui said: He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. So, what makes this other guy any different to the guy in the OP? I mean, you sure as hell gave this 'typical guy' your time. I honestly don't see the difference between the two. I don't recall saying one having more credibility than the other, do you? I think the more you understand something, the easier it is to see how knowledgeable someone else is about that topic. My response was not necessarily to that guy, but rather a more general response to people who blatantly put down something without having any real understanding of it. I am by no means an expert on animation, and am therefore very open to people's opinions on the matter (who have taken the time to learn and analyze it). However, particularly in the latter vid, more than 10 or whatever seconds was enough to realize watching further would result in nothing worthwhile. |
| The OP vid actually makes an argument, despite being vague and generalized. He is trolling but at least he's explaining why, and encouraging healthy discussion beyond the flames -- a professional troll. The second vid was made specifically to troll for views, and I'm tempted to just remove it. It's increasingly popular on youtube to do that kind of thing... and they can get money from the advertising. |
I am a banana. |
| I don't know what crack you guys are smoking i think anime animation is unique and amazing. |
| Anime looks awesome, IMO. That is why I watch it. |
Bum Bum Dum Dum |
| Nowadays, I think that American cartoons are just plain retarded. I forgot the name but it was like Adventure Jack or something where these jelly shaped shitballs are searching for an island of candy. Then there's Adventure Time where these horrible down-syndromed, extra-chromosome, autistic kids are doing the weirdest shit. Pretty much why the quality of American education is going down. But I have to agree that Japanese anime is mostly the same in terms of vision. |
TeNoriTaiga- said: Nowadays, I think that American cartoons are just plain retarded. I forgot the name but it was like Adventure Jack or something where these jelly shaped shitballs are searching for an island of candy. Then there's Adventure Time where these horrible down-syndromed, extra-chromosome, autistic kids are doing the weirdest shit. Pretty much why the quality of American education is going down. But I have to agree that Japanese anime is mostly the same in terms of vision. Flap Jack. I hate that show >_> |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Carmine said: What can you expect from that studio. >.>I'm too freaking lazy to read this whole thread, and I think someone might have said the same as I'm gonna do now: Some anime animation do suck (I find Beelzebub's animation very poor, the manga looked more promising, of course; there are worse). Anyway, I'm not too picky about animation. I prefer anime simply because it's artistic direction and story clicks more with me. |
 |
| I saw this guys vid years back and at the time I thought the guy made a good point but 3 years and 60 odd anime series later, I've realised, the guy's full of shit. Honestly, did I just hear him say that 'besides content.... anime has nothing to offer"? Content is basically the plot, a plot which is seldom matched in any animated series outside of Japan. Add to that some of the killer characters we get plus some of the best BGM/OST's, it makes for pretty good viewing. That's not to say I hate non-anime cartoons. Batman TAS was among some of the best shit on t.v, X-men too, both the original and Evolution (even though it went a bit off-cannon) just to name a few Yeh, I know he addressed animation and you can't get close to US cartoons in that sense but let's face it, all that extra budget and time they have is used on a different target audience <13 y/o kids. Pretty pictures attract kids, hence the emphasis on animation in those cartoons. If a guy that age wants lively pictures, tell him to get the fuck outside and take a nature walk or something. Ave. age of WSJ is 18 right? It's no surprise Anime has a more vociferous fanbase. That's clearly the only thing this guy is pissed off about. He is a bit funny at times though,lol. |
Hypeathon said: What I am bothered with though is the sense of being closeminded about American animation. It's fine if you're not a fan of it, I can't convince you to be. But when it gets to the point where you not only have seen way more of anime than American animation, but are more willing to be observant about anime and study the themes and intentions about anime and how it's made, while you "skim" through and generalize American animation as being this and only this, that's when I get annoyed. Especially if you're preaching your opinion everywhere as a gospel truth and yet haven't practice or learned enough of the medium and the process of it to make an opinion. The difference here is I have seen the shows I'm complaining about; I do give US animation a chance, it's just it always fails to deliver. You can count on your hand the number of US cartoons that actual bother to give their shows an overall plotline, and even fewer that actually make it a point to develop it (so not Samurai Jack, which set up Aku as the villain then spent 50+ episodes not doing anything about it) and even fewer still that actually manage to reach that conclusion with a reasonable conclusive ending.) As for your comment on comedy, well, perhaps that had more merit in the 90s when we had shows like Tiny Toons and Animaniacs, but looking at shows like Flapjack and Adventure Time, as mentioned, I don't get that sense at all. I'd go so far to say that Mitsudomoe (nice sig saka, by the way) is hands down the funniest show I've seen in a long, long time. The characters are all unique and sharply written, and despite being mostly a comedy show, it's not afraid to actually develop it's characters and probe some of the depths of their minds. Hitoha's little story arc in the first series and it's ultimate resolution in the penultimate episode is something I've never seen in a US comedy cartoon before. You speak of analyzing themes, but, well, like I said, I've yet to see themes like that in comedy shows from the US. Unless it's a 'very special' episode that is never mentioned again and they hit the reset button, but not something like Hitoha which is a focal point throughout the series' run. |
| The only good cartoons were the ones I watched as a kid, the other ones are terribad and retarded I mean, a talking kitchen sponge who's a fry cook UNDER THE SEA makes tons more sense than a dude with a magical dog who do wacky stuff in a post apocalyptic world rite |
777BRAINVAPOREONJun 17, 2011 8:47 PM
 |
| Speaking of spongebob, I NEVER liked that show. I dunno why. I saw it on TV all the time as a kid, and it never grabbed me. Maybe because I was already out of the age demographic (middle school?). |
| *ahem* Alright, I shall be rational and let my opinions be heard. Now don't get me wrong I'm not taking sides here but I'm gonna just say this once and for all. Let me give you an example here. Let's take my favorite genre in music as an example. I love metal music and I found a video someone made called "Metal Sucks". Now, do I immediately leave a comment saying "you're an idiot! metal rules!"? No. I would watch the video and see what the person had to say regarding metal music and why he thinks it sucks. If he does make valid points, I'll have to agree with what he say even though there are things that I disagree with. It's the same thing here. He makes a video called "Why Anime Sucks" and he did have some good points but there are points that I disagree with. But I don't go out of my way to insult someone for their opinions unless he happens to attack me personally, and as I read from an earlier post he only seems to be targeting weeaboos (a group of people who I really dislike) and not the entire anime fanbase, like in the case of Metalheads, some are more retarded than the others *cough* making Justin Bieber references in almost every comment they post in a video *cough* which is really annoying. I'm an otaku who has bought a lot of merchandising but I don't try to be something I'm not. But personally, in my honest opinion, I think it's kinda pointless to compare both forms of animation because I believe both countries have their own way of doing animation. I've been an anime fan since 1998 and what made me got into anime is the art that makes it look different and unique compared to American animation. I remember it was the English dubbed versions of Akazukin Cha Cha and You're Under Arrest being among the first anime I watch back then and was mesmerized by the unique style of art and animation that got me hooked ever since. I do however enjoy American animation as well but as of now, they're not as good at they used to be. Don't get me wrong, there are still American animation that I like but what ever happened to those awesome cartoons that I grew up on like Adventures of Johnny Quest, Batman TAS, Captain Simians And The Space Monkeys, Swat Cats, etc? It's mostly childish cartoons these days that I can't identify with. But all-in-all, he may have pointed out flaws that will be noticed when I look carefully but will that change my opinion on anime? No. Will that change the way I watch, love and enjoy my anime? No. But do I bash him for having an opinion? Definitely not. As the thread starter say, give someone a chance before giving him a barrage of hate comments. Thank you :) |
Tachii said: Speaking of spongebob, I NEVER liked that show. I dunno why. I saw it on TV all the time as a kid, and it never grabbed me. Maybe because I was already out of the age demographic (middle school?). SpongeBob sucks now for reasons that are deeper than animation. :) I must say that I've rarely seen an "ugly" anime, or one that was poorly animated or designed. Anime is generally more limited than western animation, but even some cartoons look good technically and have more frames still have very poor continuity. That being said, I find The Amazing Adventures of Gumball to be annoying to my eyes. What is up with that CG stuff? |
Aethrega said: I must say that I've rarely seen an "ugly" anime, or one that was poorly animated or designed. This is what I have to agree with. I've never watched an anime that looks terrible in animation or design. |
TheNotoriousKAZ said: Well, if you've watched anime long enough you can tell when techniques were used to cut corners. They aren't really secret but sometimes they are unavoidable. I'm sure every director would die to have an unlimited budget and their own timeframe, but the reality doesn't work that way. Everybody just has to do what makes money -- whether it's Mars of Destruction or Aqua Teen Hunger Force. Some animation is simply worse from a technical standpoint, but at the same time can be addictingly entertaining (and profitable).Aethrega said: I must say that I've rarely seen an "ugly" anime, or one that was poorly animated or designed. This is what I have to agree with. I've never watched an anime that looks terrible in animation or design. The fact that you don't notice the cut corners is testament to how well they are obscured, and the great direction that brings slideshows to life without seeming boring. Yes there might only be a couple "money shot" moments during an action sequence between tensioned stills.... but that actually raises tension better than bouncy rubber humans and is done consciously and carefully. Most of the criticisms in the video are actual tools that animators use to waste less budget animating details that you don't care about -- and I really don't think they vary much between japan and the rest of the world. He holds up Disney like some kind of paragon just because they blow hundreds of millions on one feature -- even though there is really no way for any japanese studio to compete and he ignores that it would kill the diverse content he claims to love. |
I am a banana. |
| I don't think it's much of a response to the first video, but I found this; |
| It differs. I could see why some people get turned off by the animation. Most animes follow patterns in the animation which makes it easy to understand how they animated it. I really do hate it when the only thing moving on screen is the mouth when someone is talking. When that happens for longer than a couple of seconds, it just breaks my suspension of disbelief and i'm reminded that it's just a drawing of a face with an animator moving the mouth. Sad that they are so lazy. Just move the head a little or something that takes the attention away from the mouth. |
 |
TheNotoriousKAZ said: Haha yes it's a great response and he's certainly pointing out many of the flaws, but this guy is being unfair in some respects as well. Everybody influences each other and uses the same tricks yes.... but it is true that the modern animation market has behemoths and tiny studios. You cannot expect say SHAFT or Ghibli or Madhouse to compete with Disney feature movies on sheer technical scale. Disney is just so massive that pretty much nobody else has the years and millions to risk on massive features like Princess and the Frog. Still, it's a testament to ingenuity and animator talent that they are compared on the same footing.... and as long as the average viewer doesn't notice the technical differences they might as well not be there.I don't think it's much of a response to the first video, but I found this; I really would like to see what would happen if Ghibli had Disney's budgets back in the day.... or perhaps Madhouse today. Whatever you do don't give it to SHAFT though, because Shinbou would probably turn into the newest Japanese dictator. |
I am a banana. |
More topics from this board
Sticky: » The Current Events Board Will Be Closed on Friday JST ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Luna - Aug 2, 2021 |
271 |
by traed
»»
Aug 5, 2021 5:56 PM |
|
» Third shot of Sinovac COVID-19 vaccine offers big increase in antibody levels: study ( 1 2 )Desolated - Jul 30, 2021 |
50 |
by Desolated
»»
Aug 5, 2021 3:24 PM |
|
» Western vaccine producers engage in shameless profiteering while poorer countries are supplied mainly by China.Desolated - Aug 5, 2021 |
1 |
by Bourmegar
»»
Aug 5, 2021 3:23 PM |
|
» NLRB officer says Amazon violated US labor lawDesolated - Aug 3, 2021 |
17 |
by kitsune0
»»
Aug 5, 2021 1:41 PM |
|
» China Backs Cuba in Saying US Should Apply Sanctions To ItselfDesolated - Aug 5, 2021 |
10 |
by Desolated
»»
Aug 5, 2021 1:36 PM |