| I'm sure everyone will agree that the anime business is in the turning point. Geneon US and Tokyopop Germany have withdrawn themselves from the anime DVD business, Kadokawa decided to collaborate with Google/Youtube, and Gonzo made subbed anime on their own and released them simultaneously with the airings in Japan. They are trying to subsist through the declining anime industry. We have been discussing this matter long without enough concrete market data. I found good sources to start a fruitful discussion based on the real numbers. Anime DVD sales (billion yen: $1 = 100-110 yen) Japan 82.4 (2003) ----- 95.0 (2006) USA 60.0 (2003) ----- 45.0 (2006) France 12.0 (2005) Italy 2.8 (2006) 60% are piracy Europe 1.3 million euro (2002) including VHS Number of released anime titles Japan 2421 (2006) USA 759 (2006) Source Source Source Source Licencing fee per one episode $10,000~70,000 (?? at the peak) ----- $~5,000 (2007) Source (This is the amount of money the foreign anime distributers pay to the Japanese anime production companies) Anime production cost per one episode $100,000~200,000 corrected: oops, I was wrong in order... not $10k-20k Source Cost for one episode title by title The Simpsons (2004) $1,500,000 One Piece (2000) $100,000 Cowboy Bebop (1998) $200,000 Ghost In The Shell SAC (2002) $300,000 Gunslinger Girl (2002) $130,000 Bamboo Blade (2008) $100,000 Source DVD price per one episode Japan $15~25 USA $~5? maybe wrong... please point out if you have a better knowledge about this corrected: $5 is still high!? OMG Source ++++edited++++= I want you to keep it mind one thing, which many anime fans are misunderstanding. Most of the Japanese anime are NOT supported by the intervening TV ads. Anime companies purchase the right of airing from TV companies and put their own DVD release ads or related magazine/manga ads. The airing of anime on TV is considered to be an advertisement of its DVD. DO NOT complain that Japanese fans are enjoying anime for free by the financial support from sponsors. There are no such generous sponsors. Our expenses on DVD directly support the anime industry. +++++edit end++++ We tend to think that the anime fans outside Japan is quite smaller in number compared to those in Japan. These data indicate that the number of anime fans in US is comparable to that of Japanese fans. You also see the steep shrinking of the anime market in US. Why does this happen? What do we and they should do about this? I want your frank opinions. |
dtshykApr 13, 2008 11:45 PM
| It could be that people are losing interest, or maybe people are just feeling the pinch on their pocketbooks - with gas and general living expenses getting higher, anime may no longer be as easily afforded. And why buy when you can get it faster and for free online? My frank opinion about the US anime market is that I don't care about it. I couldn't care less if anime dies in America or if it continues to spread. I'm only somewhat interested in interacting with the general anime community - hence why I come here, and not anime conventions. So, if it continues to shrink, I don't really care. I'm not sure what they could do about it - make it more affordable or make newer titles available faster, perhaps. Didn't someone do something like that with Shigofumi - license it halfway through and start releasing sub-only DVDs? |
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| solution: execution of all narutards /thread over |
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url_elf said: Didn't someone do something like that with Shigofumi - license it halfway through and start releasing sub-only DVDs? Bandai did, yeah. But they cancelled the plans they had to release (shitty pricing model) and are reconsidering their options. I also don't care about the US anime market. It only really exists for dubs, which I detest, so whether it lives or dies is a non-issue to me. I'm sure the majority of 'anime' sales are probably pokemon or similarly childish franchise related, anyway. But it has little to do with me. I'm as happy with R2s as I am R4s (which are generally rebadged R1s) though R2 pricing is a bit... high. Though slimpacks come out eventually, and I can wait for them. |
dtshyk said: USA $5~10 maybe wrong... please point out if you have a better knowledge about this This one is a giant varable, There's generally always a sale gonig on as the MSRP is greatly exagerated so for this I'm gonig to use Amazon.com's current sale price. I do think you're exagerating the price though, it's probably between $1-5, $5 being the way too high anyway. On the extreme cheap side, take Noein Great series at $17.49 and at 24 eps this give us about $0.72 per ep which is a great price. For the mroe average price, take the new One Piece DVDs. $37.49 for 13 eps, which is about $3.65 per ep. Definitely not the best of prices but it's marketable. A huge difference between them, but lets try to find some average TV shows and see the price for that. Muppet Show Season 3 $29.99 with 24 eps, about $1.25 per ep. But remember that this release comes with a boat load of extras, commentaries on every ep, special features, etc. On the average Anime DVDs are really expensive per content when compared to the average TV show release, but they're still cheap when compared to Jap markets. And that's the main reason why the "American Anime Industry" (I hate that terminology) is failing, the price isn't justified by the content. |
TheWestExitApr 7, 2008 11:18 PM
    Sam is my sweet peach |
Lelangir said: USA held around 30$ of Japan's anime profit, so you can expect to see perhaps 30% less anime produced in Japan. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It may be a process of "natural selection" in that all the crappy anime is done for, and maybe you get 10 series of excellent quality every season, instead of god knows how many which are filled with crappers. This is all conjecture but I'm pretty sure that if the animation industry in Japan is making less due to the collapse of the US industry we'll get even more crappy anime (and less good ones). I was under the opinion that 'crappy' anime were made for an 'easy buck'. Thus why a lot of low quality anime seem to appeal to the average Japanese otaku in Japanese. The anime considered 'good' often have a lot more behind it to make it that good (normally meaning having good animation, music, voice actors, writers, etc). Which I assume costs so much more. Not that there is any empirical data to support this. |
| I think the anime community is bigger then it ever was. But we're all downloading the episodes, rather then paying for them. Less money being put into anime, so less anime is coming out. |
| some interesting number u got there ^.^ thx any idea what the state of the EU market is. i know it's probable much smaller than the us market, but i think it would still be interesting ^.^ |
| I still don't see why this isn't done logically. Lets assume two things: 1) There will always be fansubbers to sub unsubbed japanese anime. 2) There would be little reason for a fansubbing group to sub an already professionally translated anime. --- So, why doesn't each company create a website that hosts their anime for free? They might need to hire professional subbers to translate each episode in multiple languages. But then they could put each episode (when it's aired in Japan) on this site available for streaming. BUT, they riddle each video with a 10-30 second ad and place a nearby link to available merchandise. This way, they actually make a little bit of money off people who would merely be downloading an episode and stealing it anyway. Plus, put emphasis on "streamed." Lower quality, less liked. So the push would become: "Buy DVDs for high quality!" --- In essense, these companies should take the market into their own hands. If they don't want to lose money, they should take their product from the amature subber and professionalize it. And I know 99.9% of everyone here would probably hate the idea and I can't say I blame you. But it IS an alternative to the current system that supposedly 'loses them money.' If the option ever became between either "This is not profitable, we're shutting down" or the proposed idea above, I'd take the latter hands down... |
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hybridkiller said: So, why doesn't each company create a website that hosts their anime for free? They might need to hire professional subbers to translate each episode in multiple languages. But then they could put each episode (when it's aired in Japan) on this site available for streaming. BUT, they riddle each video with a 10-30 second ad and place a nearby link to available merchandise. As for the streaming business, GONZO's idea is better because they don't have to invest their precious money for server maintenance. Kadokawa is trying to find the way out by putting ads on their anime, but I don't think it changes the situation much as you point out that hybridkiller said: This way, they actually make a little bit of money off people yes. just a little bit. The situation of the anime TV program in Japan is the good example. Anime companies purchase the right of airing from TV company and they put their own DVD ads to the program. No sponsor finds the point of putting their abs to anime programs which are aired after midnight and watched by quite particular kinds of people. It is true for the anime vids on the internet. hybridkiller said: Plus, put emphasis on "streamed." Lower quality, less liked. So the push would become: "Buy DVDs for high quality!" First of all, they need to stop airing their anime in HD quality on TV to encourage fans to buy DVD which is usually in less quality than HD. They are choking their neck by themselves. I fear that US fans started to think that most of the current Japanese anime are not worth spending money. They were willing to pay for Pokemon or Dragon Ball, but not for the newer titles? We can attribute the steep decline to the simple fact that those "breadwinner" titles are getting old, can't we? I doubt the fansubbs are the main reason for this matter. Youtube and P2P strongly affects the Japanese market in many aspects but the DVD sales are still growing. If Japanese anime is appealing only for Japanese fans, the future will be dark. |
| Man, that is a sharp drop in US DVD sales from 2003 to 2006! Nothing new in this post, but just ideas I've had to improve sales: 1] Better marketing. A complete overhaul of current trends and conventions in order to re-introduce anime to the western world, an effort to challenge common notions of what anime is, etc, etc. This basically means more exposure, which means more channels dedicated to the medium. The objective is to move anime out of 'niche' and 'cult'. A long process that needs commitment and planning. 2] Failing the above, stream entire seasons of anime for free (or register to see them, whatever) online. Yeah, this idea is beginning to get old, amazingly and depressingly enough. Make fansubbers' existence a moot point. Generate revenue through advertising. I'm sure people wont mind enduring adverts during their streamed anime, its free so really. Places like crunchyroll, veoh, and other smaller sites must have so many visitors, it's beginning to boggle my mind how western anime companies arent waking up and seeing the potential for profit in stealing all those online viewers. 3] More episodes on DVDs. Consumer is satisfied and it means less money spent on producing all those discs and cases. I wont even bother with the issue of price as only naive people go out and buy retail price DVDs in stores, everyone else camps out at deepdiscountdvd, etc. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
| I think the industry's going to tank, and it's going to be soon. There is just no reason to pay for something you can get for free -- unless you really love it enough to watch it more than once. That's the cinch. Anime to most people is just like the TV shows they watch. You watch every new episode, keep up with it, but you don't necessarily want to watch it all over again. Anime is disposable: you download, watch, and then delete. I personally know that 99% of the anime I've watched, I don't really want to watch all over again. I'd rather watch something new. I think it's that way with most people. ANYWAYS, my solution for the anime industry is that they focus more on merchandising. People love to own anime clothes, keychains, stationary, whatever, but there's not much of it anywhere outside of Japan and conventions. If they simply must release DVDs, skip out on the dubbing for shows that won't air on TV or just charge less per DVD (the prices are so ridiculous -- $40 for 3 episodes??) |
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| dtshyk suggestion of collusion as an answer to this "crisis" isn't really practical and I doubt anyone would even think of trying it. The basic hurdle seems to be the fact that companies have to purchase air time and try to make the money back in other ways. Getting broadcasters involved in production could be an answer if it means free air time, but that doesn't seem to be especially popular. Government backing of studios is probably a political non-starter. There's also the option of avoiding domestic TV altogether and putting episodes up exclusively online, or in another country first. Anyway, there are loads of options, but someone has to be willing to take some risks. |
| I think that theres a possibility that it is merely a problem of the falling economy, much like what url_elf suggested. Similar to the industrial revolution when people started gaining more time and money to spend on personal time, we may be in a time of decline, especially on Bush's absurd policies. This drop in such a small amount of time can't possibly correlate to the amount of people that watch fansubs, seeing as how the surge in those numbers occured early 21st century. |
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| I think DVD sales overall have peaked- I dont even have a DVD player anymore, everything I have is digital. Once anime companies start to switch over to digital distribution (with subs instead of dubs), I think they will start to make a lot more money. |
kin-chan said: I think the industry's going to tank, and it's going to be soon. There is just no reason to pay for something you can get for free -- unless you really love it enough to watch it more than once. That's the cinch. Anime to most people is just like the TV shows they watch. You watch every new episode, keep up with it, but you don't necessarily want to watch it all over again. Anime is disposable: you download, watch, and then delete. I personally know that 99% of the anime I've watched, I don't really want to watch all over again. I'd rather watch something new. I think it's that way with most people. ANYWAYS, my solution for the anime industry is that they focus more on merchandising. People love to own anime clothes, keychains, stationary, whatever, but there's not much of it anywhere outside of Japan and conventions. If they simply must release DVDs, skip out on the dubbing for shows that won't air on TV or just charge less per DVD (the prices are so ridiculous -- $40 for 3 episodes??) I understand what you're saying, but it just sounds like Japan should carry their own industry. Not even I want to buy merchandise. I want DVDs and manga. And I'll support the industry as best I can. But merchandise is a line I hardly cross. I have like two key chains and a few shirts (all pretty much free). |
| I'm happy to find you guys' frank opinions. Anime companies have already been doing good job about the streaming business at least here in Japan. Quite a large number of anime titles (including Code Geass R2) will be broadcasted online this season and I'm sure they will do the same thing for subbed ones like GONZO. Also you can purchase Ghost in the shell SAC episodes from iTune store. Things are changing in the way we have been expecting to. I think it's our turn to make changes. kin-chan said: Anime is disposable: you download, watch, and then delete. I personally know that 99% of the anime I've watched, I don't really want to watch all over again. I also understand you, but if kin-chan said: I'd rather watch something new. then you can contribute to the production of "new" anime series by paying for the "old" ones. The rewatch value doesn't matter for me to decide which DVD to buy. If I enjoyed a masterpiece, I invest my money in the next masterpiece by purchasing DVDs. Asrialys said: And I'll support the industry as best I can. yes, I love the term "support the industry". Are you happy without anime? If no, why don't you join the investment? |
dtshykApr 8, 2008 9:17 PM
dtshyk said: Asrialys said: And I'll support the industry as best I can. yes, I love the term "support the industry". Are you happy without anime? If no, why don't you join the investment? Well, I do buy. |
| "Support the industry" is such a broad term, and is often overused by crazy zealot anime fans. Even if you buy one DVD per month, you're still doing your part. If you like anime, buy it, between all the expenses most teenage anime fans go through I'm sure they can fit at least one DVD in there. |
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| So, according to the numbers that dtshyk posted in the first post of this thread, between '03 and '06, the anime DVD market (continued to) grow in Japan while it declined in the United States by 25%. That's no small drop, but however, I think that it won't have a huge effect on the Japanese production companies. Anime existed in Japan long before it started being released in the US. Japan is STILL obviously the primary consumer of anime-related goods. If the US market bottoms out, I don't think it's going to have a huge effect on the Japanese companies. We're hardly a "critical" component of their profits. Anime's been around since before WWII in one form or another, and I don't think that mass licensing of series to America (which is a relatively new trend mind you, while a few series made it over here in the 70's and 80's, only in the past decade have so many been released on DVD), or rather the failure of the licensed anime market, will be enough to stop it or even slow down production. I don't think the fansubbers are mostly to blame. Anime over in the US seems to be largely "fad-based"; as in, for example, I remember everyone running around obsessed with Pokemon for a year or two back when I was younger, and then it was gone (as in, unpopular) as quickly as it became popular. I think that alot of companies kind of sped up their licensing of series based on one or two extremely successful "fad-based" series, and the REAL, long-term demand just isn't here. And now they're paying for that kind of speculation. I don't think the market trends and such are well-established in the US, so alot of these licensing companies speculate on what might catch on and what might not based on the one or two extremely successful series -- which unfortunately, may only be special cases. Exceptions to the rule, and not the actual rule. |
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| Big screen adaptations, like upcoming Wachowskis' Speed Racer, will probably create a little surge in sales. For the most part though, I think the vast vast majority of people in the west look on anime with disdain, even worse than how you'd expect most people to look on animation in general; anime has a special hate directed at it all together. The other day I was trawling forums and sites for new info on Speed Racer and kept coming across many ignorant hateful comments just trashing the entire medium of anime and claiming that the medium, not just in America, but the medium itself has 'had its time, and will be dead soon'. Eh? Idiots. So like I said earlier, any solutions the industry comes up with will only work temporarily, if they want consistent success with anime, they need an ambitious long-term plan where they have to in essence re-introduce it to the US/UK in a mainstream fashion and not self-label it as 'cult', 'niche', 'extreme', etc, and to not keep pushing common denominator stuff like Dragonball, Pokemon, etc. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
| Possibly one of the best things to do to make an anime series a little more successful is to air it on mainstream TV. The success of several series like Dragonball, Tenchi, Pokemon, and recently Naruto in the US probably owe a lot to their being aired on TV. If anime only goes straight to DVD, it probably will not garner a lot of hype and get passed over. Dislaimer: I did no research whatsoever on my musings and am merely making them up as I go. I also buy anime DVDs for series that I have watched the fansubs of. |
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| Hmmm, I feel anime is actually becoming more popular worldwide. Maybe we just buy less dvds? Personally, I don't buy DVDs (I don't live in America and we don't have any distribution here, so buying overseas would make the shipping more expensive than the DVDs themselves), although, if the industry went towards the fans, and released the anime with some thought beyond how much money they want to make, like, is it really economical to release a volume with only 3 eps on it every 3 months or so? Not only I don't have money to buy 485868962 dvds if I wanted to collect something like One Piece, I don't have the space either... and that's just one aspect... I agree with whoever said they should invest more in the other merchandise. |
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Seishi said: "Support the industry" is such a broad term, and is often overused by crazy zealot anime fans. Even if you buy one DVD per month, you're still doing your part. If you like anime, buy it, between all the expenses most teenage anime fans go through I'm sure they can fit at least one DVD in there. Every DVD sale counts, as they say - especially in todays market. I can sleep at night knowing I'm supporting the hobby I love and not leeching off it, possiblely causing its eventual demise. For example, I buy about 5-6 anime DVDs a month. I'm doing my part to keep this hobby alive here. $15-25 a month, depending which company you buy from, isn't much at all. Let's see, the people at ADV, the folks at The RightStuf Intl, Media Blasters would take a hit - but they have live-action to fall back on, FUNimation would be useless to Navarre, who would probably crash and burn -- which could send ripple-effect to the U.S. economy at large. There's just so much that COULD happen, it's scary to even think about it. Be considerate of others. My point is, hundreds(maybe thousands) of people will lose their jobs(some of which probably love!) because of illegal activity, like piracy and downloading licensed anime. Do you want to responsible for people losing their jobs, livelyhoods and destroying this hobby in America for the those of us who do care and do support the industry? Do you? |
| Ive been supporting the industry all the way. I spent $4000's dollars on anime dvd's already and will continue to do so. However, the rate at which they are pumping anime to America, I feel is way to slow for my pace so I end up dling it rather than waiting patiently for the dvd. But most of the anime I have dled I feel it isnt to the standard legendary titles of the past. I feel these titles are just to make a quick buck which is very unfortunate. So now I rely on my dl's until I find that extra special anime worthy of my purchase. Also with this economy tanking atm its making it much harder for me to spend the extra cash now with insane gas prices and such. |
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| alright let's summarize the main issues... 1. Anime should get out of the niche market The anime distributers like John Oppliger have been longing for the next mega hits. Of cource it's good if it happens, but no one can intensionally bring about a boom. That's a result not a means. 1' . Broadcast more anime on major TV channel Related to the issue above. It depends on how the major TV companies in US thinking about the anime programs. I heard that they are getting cautious of airing anime and skeptical about its popularity. 2. Sell DVDs in other countries There are quite a few potential buyers in Europe, Middle east etc. But the withdrawal of Tokyopop Germany indicates the difficulty of running business in a small market. 3. Accelerate the pace of releasing DVDs in US Bandai WAS trying to shorten the delay of DVD release in Shigofumi. I'm not sure what they are thinking now. I think they've already noticed the long delay between the fansub release and the DVD release is discouraging. To minimize the delay, they need to abandon the dubbing, but most of the anime distributers still believe it's essential for appealing the majority of customers. 4. Beat the "free riders" up It's a common phenomenon: downloading songs, games, PC softwares, OS, movies, and anime. I don't blame those free riders or downloaders because the anime business has been taking them into account. Most of the viewers watch anime for free on TV (or online) and only a small number of fans spend their money on DVD or other merchandise. So we need to put our efforts to increase the number of buyers instead of "executing all narutards". It may sound hypocritically but I want people to have a respect to the artists. It takes months or sometimes years to make a 30min episode and quite a large number of talented animators, musicians, and voice actors are working for it with a extremely low salary. I thought $15-25 per one episode was crazy, but not anymore after I got shocked by the making vid of a TV anime. To make just one BGM, many musicians struggled through the nights. I'm satisfied with buying expensive DVDs cuz paying more money means contributing to their jobs more. |
dtshyk said: kin-chan said: I'd rather watch something new. then you can contribute to the production of "new" anime series by paying for the "old" ones. The rewatch value doesn't matter for me to decide which DVD to buy. If I enjoyed a masterpiece, I invest my money in the next masterpiece by purchasing DVDs. No way, when the people in Japan get to watch it all for free on their TV with just the slight annoyance of advertisements? I'd rather they just put all licensed anime on TV, then. Or what someone suggested earlier, stream the episodes online alongside advertising. I know you really want people to buy the DVDs, but you have to realize the average age of an anime fan. It's usually high school and college age. Where the hell would us teenagers get enough money to buy so many DVDs? Especially college students such as myself. We're already deep in student loan debt, and will be for years after graduating, and you want us to buy DVDs? If there were no such thing as fansubs, and all anime had to be bought, I think the anime fanbase would be very, very tiny. Many people like having it as a hobby because it's free, unlike almost any other hobby in life. |
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kin-chan said: but you have to realize the average age of an anime fan. It's usually high school and college age. Where the hell would us teenagers get enough money to buy so many DVDs? Especially college students such as myself. We're already deep in student loan debt, and will be for years after graduating, and you want us to buy DVDs? If there were no such thing as fansubs, and all anime had to be bought, I think the anime fanbase would be very, very tiny. Many people like having it as a hobby because it's free, unlike almost any other hobby in life. When I was teenage, I've never thought of owning anime, neither. So you don't have to feel guilty as long as you are young and don't have enough money. The statistics show 25% of the DVD buyers in 2003 quit purchasing in 2006. They might lose interests in anime or go back to free watchers. If there are good number of people in the latter case, I strongly urge them to come back before the anime market in US collapses. It will be bad both for fans and companies if the whole market is gone when young anime fans get ready to participate. |
kin-chan said: No way, when the people in Japan get to watch it all for free on their TV with just the slight annoyance of advertisements? I'd rather they just put all licensed anime on TV, then. Or what someone suggested earlier, stream the episodes online alongside advertising. Actually, the Japanese DO NOT watch anime on TV for free. The Japanese pay a TV tax each year for the privaledge of watching tv. The is one thing people have not mentioned here that I think is important. The anime industry is catering to the wrong market. There is a market that would gladly buy anime, even at current prices. In fact, they already buy. This market is the adult anime fan. I'm not talking adult as in hentai adult. I am talking adult as in someone who is both mature and old enough to have a job. SInce they have a job, they have money. That means they have the means to support the industry. However, there aren't that many non-hentai anime available for adults. You mostly see kids and teen stuff. If there were more series and films for adults available and if these were actually marketed to adults, the industry wouldn't be in its current crisis. |
 Anime-zing music for the masses. |
| if the anime market is shrinking in the US, i would assume it would have to do with the state of the economy right now, we're currently in a recession, and an end does not seem to be in view yet, and with inflation, the US dollar is losing its value in the international market, meaning we pay more dollars for whatever we want to buy, and seeing as i would assume many anime fans are of a younger generation of hourly wage workers, and the minimum wage isn't keeping up with the cost of living, it might be harder to buy superfluous items maybe another thing would be that, even though it is wrong if the anime has already been released in the US on DVD, but maybe it's possible that most people get their anime by downloading/torrenting. this would show as "shrinking" of the anime market, when it may be growing or at least constant. |
| Good point about the recession, things look like they're gonna get worse before they get better, and I think anime will be a very low priority among the people and economic plans, lol. Unless of course, like I said earlier, the Hollywood adaptations of anime suddenly create a surge of interest... |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
| The data was in 2006, before the Subprime recession. The drop is not due to the overall economic condition. Anyway, I agree that the current status of the US economy won't be good for the anime industry. |
| I'm gonna bump this thread because it's an actual discussion and not just another "Best ...." or "What's your favorite ..." dtshyk said: alright let's summarize the main issues... [...] 4. Beat the "free riders" up It's a common phenomenon: downloading songs, games, PC softwares, OS, movies, and anime. I don't blame those free riders or downloaders because the anime business has been taking them into account. Most of the viewers watch anime for free on TV (or online) and only a small number of fans spend their money on DVD or other merchandise. So we need to put our efforts to increase the number of buyers instead of "executing all narutards". It may sound hypocritically but I want people to have a respect to the artists. It takes months or sometimes years to make a 30min episode and quite a large number of talented animators, musicians, and voice actors are working for it with a extremely low salary. I thought $15-25 per one episode was crazy, but not anymore after I got shocked by the making vid of a TV anime. To make just one BGM, many musicians struggled through the nights. I'm satisfied with buying expensive DVDs cuz paying more money means contributing to their jobs more. There's very little incentive in buying the actual product over getting it for free. There's two supply curves for the same demand curve and one of the supplies is near infinite and nearly free because of it. The only incentive you get is satisfaction and some box art, now, that's good enough for some people to shell out the $50 for a set, but it's not drawing the larger audience that you need. If you look at nearly any TV show release there's boat load of extras that come with the TV show so you have incentive to buy the set as opposed to just watching re-runs for free. There's comentaries, making-offs, featurettes, extra video, complete reworkings, directors cuts, loads of stuff that's hardly ever offered in any anime releases. If companies started to add stuff that I couldn't get for free and compete on a whole different damand and supply curve then they'd be a whole lot better position than they are now. As per the artist argument, I'm not buying that one either. How much man power, resources, time and money go into making a simple, every day pin? I'd take one person maybe even several years to find the ore, mine the ore, smith the ore, forge the steel, and form the pin and you'd get only a handful of pins at the end of your several year journey. If one person were to make an anime it'd take you less than a year and you'd come up with Voices of a Distant Star. You wouldn't buy pins that are $50 a pop so why would you buy anime that's $50? Not buying the product sends a strong message to the creators who find more and more efficient ways to fund and produce the product, this is why pins cost pennies for a handful even though there's a lot of work that goes into them. And yes, I do realise that anime is a creative work and making pins aren't, but the business of selling any creative work is still a business and needs to be treated like one. |
Sam is my sweet peach |
| Anime will never go away so no worries•(PERIOD) |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
TheWestExit said: There's very little incentive in buying the actual product over getting it for free. There's two supply curves for the same demand curve and one of the supplies is near infinite and nearly free because of it. The only incentive you get is satisfaction and some box art, now, that's good enough for some people to shell out the $50 for a set, but it's not drawing the larger audience that you need. If you look at nearly any TV show release there's boat load of extras that come with the TV show so you have incentive to buy the set as opposed to just watching re-runs for free. There's comentaries, making-offs, featurettes, extra video, complete reworkings, directors cuts, loads of stuff that's hardly ever offered in any anime releases. If companies started to add stuff that I couldn't get for free and compete on a whole different damand and supply curve then they'd be a whole lot better position than they are now. As for the extra features, DVDs released in Japan has plenty of them. I've heard that those "incentives" are meaningless in US anime market because lowering the price is more effective than putting extra vids or commentaries. Maybe you don't think so. TheWestExit said: As per the artist argument, I'm not buying that one either. How much man power, resources, time and money go into making a simple, every day pin? I'd take one person maybe even several years to find the ore, mine the ore, smith the ore, forge the steel, and form the pin and you'd get only a handful of pins at the end of your several year journey. If one person were to make an anime it'd take you less than a year and you'd come up with Voices of a Distant Star. You wouldn't buy pins that are $50 a pop so why would you buy anime that's $50? Not buying the product sends a strong message to the creators who find more and more efficient ways to fund and produce the product, this is why pins cost pennies for a handful even though there's a lot of work that goes into them. And yes, I do realise that anime is a creative work and making pins aren't, but the business of selling any creative work is still a business and needs to be treated like one. It's quite a subjective matter, so I don't wanna argue deeply about this. The digital technique has completely changed the landscape of the modern market. Illegal copies of music CD are found everywhere online. Even those "incentives" like extra episode on DVD or OVAs are subbed and being downloaded for free. People started to lose their sense of estimating values of stuff. Are you really sure that those creators can come up with a good idea to survive this situation without the customers' help? |
dtshykApr 29, 2008 4:00 AM
dtshyk said: As for the extra features, DVDs released in Japan has plenty of them. I've heard that those "incentives" are meaningless in US anime market because lowering the price is more effective than putting extra vids or commentaries. Maybe you don't think so. You have to lower the price, that's the main sticky of why people don't but anime. But if you're not going to that then at least justify the price. Distribution companies are competing with something that has an infinite supply and is infinitely cheap, that's impossible to do. Would you rather buy a chair at $200 or get one in the same exact quality and maybe even better for free? Now granted, that the people who chose to use this infinite supply are considered potential criminals but the chances of getting caught are extremely, extremely negligible. So the companies have to find away to compete within the market place, they can bitch and moan all they want that people are killing their market, but they must adapt and present a better product. If you offer extras then you're competing in a whole different market than the infinite supply. I can guarantee you that I won't find the heavily edited "Love Conquers All" version of the film Brazil anywhere online so Criterion Co's 3 DVD box set is my only option. Or you could lower the price to draw more people to participate in your limited supply, but the way the system is set up that's gonna be hard. dtshyk said: It's quite a subjective matter, so I don't wanna argue deeply about this. The digital technique has completely changed the landscape of the modern market. Illegal copies of music CD are found everywhere online. Even those "incentives" like extra episode on DVD or OVAs are subbed and being downloaded for free. People started to lose their sense of estimating values of stuff. Are you really sure that those creators can come up with a good idea to survive this situation without the customers' help? The customers don't help the anime companies, the customers are the reason why Distributors got into the business that they're in. And it's up to the distributors to fill a hole in the market or offer a better product. There's no blaming the customers for why you're losing money, you're losing money because of your own action within the current market. Distributors must adapt and maybe even make a new market. If you want more exposer on TV you've got to get around one of the major reservations international casual audiences have watching anime are two things, both the cause and solution to each other: 1. the voices don't match the lips because there's only 3 mouth shapes; 2. the acting is horrible because they try to match their voice to the 3 mouth shapes and not talk when mouths are closed. If I was a distribution company I'd do what Video Game distribution companies have been doing for years, get permission to change some of the animation so you can actually have actors act. Change the mouth movements so the better match what your dub actors are doing, maybe even draw some new mouth shapes. If the creators allow casual changes for broadcast like editing out Sanji's cigarette in every frame its in for the Funimation dub of One Piece some sweet talking just might allow them to do this. And it's not like this thing has never been done before in animation; Japan's broadcast of Avatar: The Last Airbender is lip-synced up to the Japanese script. |
Sam is my sweet peach |
TheWestExit said: ...(first half)... So your proposal is offering a DVD with tons of extra features that even fansubbers give up uploading all of them and keeping its price as low as possible. hmmm there are such gorgeous DVD box sets available for some titles and they are awfully expensive aiming only at very deep Otaku fans. I'm not sure it's practically possible, but I feel it worth considering although the anime distributers are trying to make the contents of DVD as simple as possible (no dubs only subs and no extra vids). TheWestExit said: ...(last half)... Dubs... it will soon be extinct, I think. Anyway let's assume there is a brave anime distributer who wants to preserve the dubbing culture. Re-editing the 2D anime will be a painfull job. It's quite unclear that those painstaking mendings improve the sales as much as canceling out the cost. "Avatar" was produced with enormous amount money (3 billion yen or something). Only if Japanese anime industry would have that amount money.... Now I understand a part of reason why people are always whining about the dubbing. Japanese language has a simple pronunciation system, so there is no need for making large number of lip-shapes. I feel sorry for the dubbing actors' desperate efforts. |
| John Oppliger gave a good summary of why US anime market is declining. Ask John said: * Consumer ennui over the DVD home video format * Anime has reached the current maximum extent of American viewer interest * Advertising, promotion, and distribution which has failed to significantly expand the American audience for anime beyond its primary demographic * The availability of anime through unlicensed channels, fast and free, has undermined the authority of commercial packaged media releases * The intentional commercial devaluation of anime caused by unrestrained, multiple discount priced re-releases has undermined the distribution industry’s ability to earn sales at prices that sustain industry growth * Too rapid over-saturation of anime DVDs into the domestic market * Willing appeasement of over-inflated Japanese valuation of anime’s American distribution value and profit potential (Agreeing to pay over-inflated licensing fees during the American anime boom of the early 2000s) * Mixed messages regarding tollerance for anime piracy from industry mastheads including Gonzo, ADV Films, and Media Blasters that authorize online anime distribution through websites including YouTube and Crunchyroll that continue to tacitly advocate anime piracy * American consumers, and particularly the anime fan community, adopting an entitlement attitude resulting in an unwillingness to contribute financial support to the anime production and distribution industry * Artistic devaluation of anime in America via drastically altered dubs, censoring, editing, and the domestic industry’s general tendency to promote anime as a disposable, value-less commodity rather than as a foreign art form worthy of respect and financial support * Decreasing television exposure, including a total absence of any anime targeted specifically at female viewers * Domestic licensors unwisely licensing and distributing costly titles with minimal domestic market potential |
| What I think is needed is an 'iTunes' solution. New anime should be subbed, (and maybe dubbed) soon after it is aired, then put online for a small fee, like $2 or so dollars an episode. If they did they did that hopefully the fansubbers would die down, a least a bit. It would also solve the distribution problem. |
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Dang0 said: What I think is needed is an 'iTunes' solution. New anime should be subbed, (and maybe dubbed) soon after it is aired, then put online for a small fee, like $2 or so dollars an episode. If they did they did that hopefully the fansubbers would die down, a least a bit. It would also solve the distribution problem. Yep, this is the idea I was thinking about as well.... all it takes is for some ambitious person to start it up.... it has the potential to be very successful, but in order for it to happen, western license groups have to die out to stop any kind of legal issues |
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| Seriously... to consider anime dying in america is silly.. it's everything, Music, movies. Everythings sales are dropping. Perhaps dubbed anime will become vastly more rare due to it actually taking costs to create it, only to potentially take losses in money made(it'd always exist to some extent even if only much rarer) All they can do is follow the trends the other industries are setting and it'll help to some degree. Maybe not greatly but it would help. Like it's been said, they need to sell them on itunes per episode and at a discounted version if you buy the whole season in one go. They need to stream them with ads that other companies pay them to show and it wouldn't hurt to simply put a donation link below to "help in any way you can" sorta deal. AND for crying out loud, stop putting them out 3 to 4 episodes at a time, you're dubbing a fully completed project, just set a release date and release them all together. People love completion they don't want to inch along at a 4 episodes every 3 months. That's half the point in buying something just to get it all in one go rather than watch it at a snail's pace like on tv. If anything I would consider the amount of anime fans in america to have grown, theres still tons of music fans and yet their sales are dropping. Maybe it's merely the settings I surround myself with, but it certainly seems more popular than it once was which was not that popular. Every industry is taking it's hits, you merely have to make the best of it and use those simple yet better strategies rather than wish it away. It's not gonna change, downloads are here to stay. |
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| first of all, I have to give credit for this topic. Its a good read and a good discussion. Best I've seen so far on the site. I agree w/ the "iTunes" solution, but I don't like the idea of dubbing dieing. That is how things got started here in the states and that may be how it survives and expands. As much as ppl hate it, dubbing and importing the anime here was the only way it was going to get as big as it did. And many anime fans would not be on this site (American ones at least) w/o their exposure to things like Voltron,Robotech, Transformers, Dragonball, Sailor Moon & Cowboy Bebop. Back to the "iTunes" solution, that and streaming. I believe that the anime industry has to take cues from American media. Music has been hit hardest, harder than any other media by Napster (of which I gleefully partook), Kazaa & other P2P properties, but it still survives by adapting. Paying per song is a hell of a lot better than paying 12.99 for 1 hit & 11 other crappy songs. When it comes to streaming, I agree with the idea of adding short advertisements through out. One of my favorite sites is Hulu.com. And eventhough it is as commercial as any site can be, it has the best model for streaming video over the internet. Good SDTV quality, few advertisements, the nice ability to pause and rewind as you see fit, and the ability to choose what you want to watch rather than whatever is available for that week. And when it comes to DVD's, I don't think that medium is necessarily dead either. If a company does it right, the DVD's/blu-ray's can be the definitive way to one own a series. They just have to realize they can NOT pull that early Dragonball Z bullsh*t they used to pull. If you come out with stuff regularly, for a reasonable price, ppl will still buy. In the end, the industry is changing and those standing still will be left behind. Unless the companies (American and Japanese) adapt, they will be left out of the loop and suffer. The fansubbers are merely fulfilling a need. If the industry did it better themselves, then subbers wouldn't need to step in. Anime isn't dead, its much like many other forms of media. It has to adjust to change. And when it does, this conversation won't even matter. |
DonKangolJonesSep 20, 2008 9:26 AM
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| Maybe they wont sell high in multimedia. But because of its popularity, the(non-multimedia) stuff will sell better :D! (Figures, t-shirts etc.) |
| anime is not mainstream at alllllllllllllllllll. i don't hear about it, if i didn't live in a foreign country that i could say for sure right now i probably wouldn't watch anime. or maybe i'd like shitty anime but i don't know. it's just, |
 今はどんでん返しの時代ではない★너와 함께 했던 일상은 어느샌가 작은 영화속 풍경이되고 ☆ |
| Taking all the various arguments into account, this is what I figure needs to be done: Everything has to start with one company. This company (I'll call it AAC for convenience) would choose an anime to license (mainly mainstream to mature (not mature as in hentai, dur)). AAC signs a deal with the Japanese company that produces the anime. Once it holds the rights to the series, AAC then turns to (a) group(s) of fansubbers willing to take up the anime, and pays them to sub it. AAC then distributes several different ways: 1. Streamed in LQ on their website (or Veoh, since they already to that for American TV), weekly updates, but only keep each episode up for a week 2. DL hardsubs from iTunes for $.99-$1.99, weekly updates 3. Once the series is complete, DL hardsubs from iTunes for $14.99-$19.99 for the entire series (I'd suggest even having a rental option for the entire series, with a watch-on-demand ticket with an expiration date) 4. If the anime is successful enough, AAC then dubs it 5. After a short wait, AAC offers DVD box sets with the featured extra being dubs (there can be other extras, too) 6. After another short wait, AAC offers dubs on iTunes That only covers actually selling the product. As far as marketing goes, there are two main options: 1. Place ads for AAC-licensed series on TV and the internet, or in magazines 2. Seek airtime for these series on mainstream TV (ie SciFi and Cartoon Network) Of course the low/failing economy undermines any kind of plan — it'd have to be long-term (at least 5 years, IMHO). And the answer to licensing outside of the US: region-free DVDs with multiple subtitles tracks. If you keep the release dates the same for every country, you can save yourself a lot of grief. Sounds like a damn business plan. >.< Well, I guess it is, kinda. |
JadeMatrixDec 17, 2008 4:55 PM
脱ぎません！_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .  |
| The economy is not good. You can't expect to have good sales and higher viewer ratings when most people are too busy at either trying to keep their jobs or to find one. Another reason is that video gaming has became more advanced and that many of the anime audiences got recruited there. In brief, this is a long-term thing and I can only see how it will get worse rather than better, since economic hardships grew worse and worse everyday, while recovery is not yet visible. It can't be helped. :( |
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| Japan is starting to directly sub their work for english readers like the new Ghost in the shell movie, which I have on pre-order. |
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