| In the abstract past, many Anime series use to always celebrate protags who embodied shit like justice, morality, and altruism… Often sometimes to an annoyingly fucking idealistic or even naïve way. At some point, though, a shift fucking happened... One that to me, seems like it even predated similar trends in Western media, in my own personal perception. Anime protagonists started becoming increasingly morally ambiguous, ruthless, or even outright fucking villainous and fans just fucking started loving that shit to death. Out of sheer boredom this morning (Basically been waiting on an important phone call for hours. lol), I decided to create this discussion to explore the decline of the classic "justice-slut-oriented" characters in Anime, why audiences might prefer darker protagonists? and how modern storytelling blurs the line between hero and anti-hero in modern Japanese anime? So if this topic interests you, opinion the fuck on and discuss away… lol |
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| Morally ambiguous characters are usually more relatable than overly idealistic goody two-shoes. |
| Long before anime fans were thirsting over morally gray antiheroes, Ryotsu Kankichi Ryo-San was already out there breaking rules.. Ryotsu in’t anywhere near a clean-cut shounen jump protagonist He was greedy, lazy, impulsive, and constantly scheming or plotting revenge. He Was Morally Flexible. He Did It Before It Was Cool. Before Light Yagami wrote names in a notebook…Before Lelouch played chess with geopolitics…Before Eren Yeager declared war on the world… Another one of shounen protagonist Hajime Kindaichi he was the messy, brilliant, perverted detective long before anime fans started worshipping flawed protagonists.. Kindaichi’s Flaws Were His trademark like He’s lazy, pervy, failing his exams, and constantly broke. He cheats on tests, dodges bus fares, and runs from cops because he’s real. Kindaichi doesn’t believe in blind morality. He knows that people kill for love, revenge, despair and he doesn’t pretend that solving the case fixes everything which is why the killers in kindaichi case files killed themselves knowing they would get death penalty, so solving the case doesn't save the killer, like Conan can pretend that it does. Kindaichi also failed to prevent the murder of his best friend but this was changed in the anime. |
| Anime chars have their roots in morally ambiguous traits, think of Yabuki Joe, Captain Harlock or Char from Gundam. All morally grey and not goody two shoes. And what the hell is a 'justice slut', made me chuckle. |
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Reply to 23feanor
Anime chars have their roots in morally ambiguous traits, think of Yabuki Joe, Captain Harlock or Char from Gundam. All morally grey and not goody two shoes.
And what the hell is a 'justice slut', made me chuckle.
And what the hell is a 'justice slut', made me chuckle.
23feanor said: Sound like a sexy super heroine name, THE JUSTICE SLUTS.justice slut    |
aReviewer said: do you have any specific work in mind? I hate to circle back to shit like "Dragon Ball", but it makes a perfect example. Though I can pull other random shit out of my ass and drop titles like "Astro Boy", "Gatchaman", "Taiyou no Ko Esteban", "Fist of the North Star", "Ninja Senshi Tobikage", "KenIchi", "Flame of Recca", "Full Metal Panic!", etc.. Either way, my original premise was more about pointing out the decline of "celebrating protags who embodied shit like justice", and not necessarily claiming it was ever really dominate in the 1st place. |
ColourWheelOct 17, 7:22 AM
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| Villainous or morally ambiguous characters are often more relatable and feel more like real human beings than the righteous ones, because human beings aren't 100% good. Since we were kids, we have been sold the idea of good vs evil, where the good always prevail. In reality, in the big picture, things are not quite like that. So, we basically grow up and shape ourselves in a way that will clash with reality, especially when we become adults. This clash will create frustrations and not-so-pure emotions/feelings. So obviously, we will empathise with characters that carry the same feelings or have been through the same as you. But reality is different than anime; there are consequences for your actions, and that's (maybe) another reason. These characters are doing what you would do (or fantasize about) if there were no consequences or if there were a way out. It's like, in movies, we are always rooting for the resistance against corrupt and dystopian governments, but in reality, most don't even move a muscle to vote. |
| I don't have a lot of examples since I watch few seasonal (new) anime. Redo of Healer exists, I definitely know about that. Last season I saw Tshghdgrwkdnavbshf New Saga which had a character named Theron, who apparently liked murdering people, and he did a lot of murdering in the anime. At one point he admitted he was going to slash a hot demon girl but didn't because something more important appeared in front of his sword.... I do not mind characters who cross lines in their story, but I do not find it cool to be an outright creep or killing people for fun. |
| I've grown tired of the protagonist being the good guy ages ago. Morally ambiguous isn't even enough. I want the protagonist to be straight up neutral evil. The problem with the protagonist being a good guy is that he will always choose the same course of action facing similar stimuli. But it takes a proper villain to backstab your own benefactor and deviate from the usual story line into territory I haven't seen a thousand times before. Of course, the protagonist still needs a goal and be motivated to reach it. However, this is exceedingly rare in anime and I can't even think of a single example that fits the bill. Best I can come up with are titles like Fate/Zero, Ajin and Sunabouzu. |
Reply to ColourWheel
aReviewer said:
do you have any specific work in mind?
do you have any specific work in mind?
I hate to circle back to shit like "Dragon Ball", but it makes a perfect example.
Though I can pull other random shit out of my ass and drop titles like "Astro Boy", "Gatchaman", "Taiyou no Ko Esteban", "Fist of the North Star", "Ninja Senshi Tobikage", "KenIchi", "Flame of Recca", "Full Metal Panic!", etc..
Either way, my original premise was more about pointing out the decline of "celebrating protags who embodied shit like justice", and not necessarily claiming it was ever really dominate in the 1st place.
ColourWheel said: I hate to circle back to shit like "Dragon Ball", but it makes a perfect example. Toriyama argued that Goku was never a hero, he was just someone who loved to fight (And in that, ended up saving the world as a side-effect), but that in multiple times he did put other in danger just for his "fighting wish". ColourWheel said: "celebrating protags who embodied shit like justice" The term you want is 正義のミカタ (Seigi no Mikata). |
Reply to SuperAdventure
I don't have a lot of examples since I watch few seasonal (new) anime. Redo of Healer exists, I definitely know about that.
Last season I saw Tshghdgrwkdnavbshf New Saga which had a character named Theron, who apparently liked murdering people,
and he did a lot of murdering in the anime.
At one point he admitted he was going to slash a hot demon girl but didn't because something more important appeared in front of his sword....
I do not mind characters who cross lines in their story, but I do not find it cool to be an outright creep or killing people for fun.
Last season I saw Tshghdgrwkdnavbshf New Saga which had a character named Theron, who apparently liked murdering people,
and he did a lot of murdering in the anime.
At one point he admitted he was going to slash a hot demon girl but didn't because something more important appeared in front of his sword....
I do not mind characters who cross lines in their story, but I do not find it cool to be an outright creep or killing people for fun.
SuperAdventure said: Tshghdgrwkdnavbshf It's "Tsuyokute", not hard to write. SuperAdventure said: who apparently liked murdering people, and he did a lot of murdering in the anime. Those parts were very bad in restrospect. There's a scene where he kills fleeing and wounded soldiers just to farm aura, and that felt in very bad taste to me. I can understand Kyle doing something like that, since he became jaded in the another timeline due to losing everything and wanting desperately to avoid that, which is why is 100% reasonable for him to murder the king. ...but Theron? WTF is wrong with Theron? Maybe this happens further down the line, but I feel that a better story would explore more the aspect of Kyle's friends being distrustful/scared of him from doing such out-of-character things like that... then again, if they're fine with Theron being Theron, I don't think they will. |
ColourWheel said: Anime protagonists started becoming increasingly morally ambiguous, ruthless, or even outright fucking villainous and fans just fucking started loving that shit to death. Could you provide us with any examples, please? |
thewiru said: Toriyama argued that Goku was never a hero, he was just someone who loved to fight (And in that, ended up saving the world as a side-effect), but that in multiple times he did put other in danger just for his "fighting wish". Nor did I ever use the word "Hero", so not sure what you were trying to get at here in the 1st place. lol thewiru said: ColourWheel said: "celebrating protags who embodied shit like justice" The term you want is 正義のミカタ (Seigi no Mikata). Was never debating terminology. it was simply just to frame it in English, since this is an English speaking platform. If I would have said something like this, “Seigi mitaina mono o taiken shita purotagan o shukufuku suru”. 99% of everyone on this platform would be trying to google the fuck out of what I was trying to even say. lol thewiru said: Could you provide us with any examples, please? Sure, Kanta Mizuno is a prime example. |
ColourWheelOct 17, 5:12 PM
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| I remember being utterly astounded when Naruto DEMOLISHES Kakuzu with the rasen shuriken, leaving him severly injured near death even, only for him to step back from putting him down for good, then the series' GOAT Kakashi, steps in to put down that pest. Meanwhile in the same arc Shikamaru silently plans the perfect vengeance for Hidan and only doesn't kill him because he's immortal and instead leaves him to maybe some day finally die in that iconic trap. Stuff like that bothers me or even pisses me off depending on the entire context. |
Reply to ColourWheel
thewiru said:
Toriyama argued that Goku was never a hero, he was just someone who loved to fight (And in that, ended up saving the world as a side-effect), but that in multiple times he did put other in danger just for his "fighting wish".
Toriyama argued that Goku was never a hero, he was just someone who loved to fight (And in that, ended up saving the world as a side-effect), but that in multiple times he did put other in danger just for his "fighting wish".
Nor did I ever use the word "Hero", so not sure what you were trying to get at here in the 1st place. lol
thewiru said:
The term you want is 正義のミカタ (Seigi no Mikata).
ColourWheel said:
"celebrating protags who embodied shit like justice"
"celebrating protags who embodied shit like justice"
The term you want is 正義のミカタ (Seigi no Mikata).
Was never debating terminology. it was simply just to frame it in English, since this is an English speaking platform. If I would have said something like this, “Seigi mitaina mono o taiken shita purotagan o shukufuku suru”. 99% of everyone on this platform would be trying to google the fuck out of what I was trying to even say. lol
thewiru said:
Could you provide us with any examples, please?
Could you provide us with any examples, please?
Sure, Kanta Mizuno is a prime example.
ColourWheel said: 99% of everyone on this platform would be googling the fuck out of what I was trying to even say. lol I don't see the issue, people do that in my threads all the time. ColourWheel said: Was never debating terminology. Me neither, I just thought that the term would be useful here. |
thewiru said: ColourWheel said: Was never debating terminology. Me neither, I just thought that the term would be useful here. Exactly how would it be useful? it's not like "Justice" is some loan word, slang, or even a term that is exclusive to Nihongo. lol |
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Reply to ColourWheel
thewiru said:
Me neither, I just thought that the term would be useful here.
ColourWheel said:
Was never debating terminology.
Was never debating terminology.
Me neither, I just thought that the term would be useful here.
Exactly how would it be useful? it's not like "Justice" is some loan word, slang, or even a term that is exclusive to Nihongo. lol
| @ColourWheel Because we're talking about anime, where such types of character are referred to as "seigi no mikata", and there's already a lot written about the term, it's history and implications. (This might surprise you, but anime comes from Japan) It's no coincidence that Emiya Shirou calls himself that: The term is considered a bit antiquated and childish, which reflects how others see his mentality. |
thewiru said: @ColourWheel Because we're talking about anime, where such types of character are referred to as "seigi no mikata", and there's already a lot written about the term, it's history and implications. This is actually an excellent reply, from you. I might just started posting all my comments in Romaji from now just to trip Users up, heavily using modern slang and profanity in Nihongo. lol |
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| @ColourWheel... dude. read 'Da Rules'. everything you write is NOT PG-13. you're dropping F-bombs like you're a German flying over Russia during WW2. sl_ut isn't allowed either. clean up your language. or face the consequences. |
just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either.  |
Reply to Morphun
Villainous or morally ambiguous characters are often more relatable and feel more like real human beings than the righteous ones, because human beings aren't 100% good.
Since we were kids, we have been sold the idea of good vs evil, where the good always prevail. In reality, in the big picture, things are not quite like that.
So, we basically grow up and shape ourselves in a way that will clash with reality, especially when we become adults.
This clash will create frustrations and not-so-pure emotions/feelings.
So obviously, we will empathise with characters that carry the same feelings or have been through the same as you.
But reality is different than anime; there are consequences for your actions, and that's (maybe) another reason. These characters are doing what you would do (or fantasize about) if there were no consequences or if there were a way out. It's like, in movies, we are always rooting for the resistance against corrupt and dystopian governments, but in reality, most don't even move a muscle to vote.
Since we were kids, we have been sold the idea of good vs evil, where the good always prevail. In reality, in the big picture, things are not quite like that.
So, we basically grow up and shape ourselves in a way that will clash with reality, especially when we become adults.
This clash will create frustrations and not-so-pure emotions/feelings.
So obviously, we will empathise with characters that carry the same feelings or have been through the same as you.
But reality is different than anime; there are consequences for your actions, and that's (maybe) another reason. These characters are doing what you would do (or fantasize about) if there were no consequences or if there were a way out. It's like, in movies, we are always rooting for the resistance against corrupt and dystopian governments, but in reality, most don't even move a muscle to vote.
| @Morphun developmental psych teaches us that childhood development is not complete without the rebellious phases of 1 'The Terrible Twos' and 2 'tween angst' and 3 'the college years'. 1 saying no to everything. 2 hormones running everything. 3 humping snorting smoking drinking everything. 1 you push the boundaries of your parents. 2 your body frankly takes over your brain and you do the stupidest things possible. 3 you have no limits socially so you can hedonistically do whatever the eff you want. without moments where we push back against society, we don't understand the limits of acceptable behavior inherently inside our own minds. we just parrot what our socialization has taught us. every age, generation, time in history etc. has a Tom Sawyer. those characters give us whom have grown up the nostalgia of 'what if i was like that as a kid?' and those of Tom's age ideas on how to act out, and what the consequences could be. anime stories with morally grey characters and evil ones and holier than thou ones etc. allow us to escape something now and entertain us. because frankly, this whole thread is explained with a few simple sentences. anime is entertainment. people will entertain themselves how they like to. people naturally like things that are new or different or somewhat kinda-sorta what they've liked before, even if there is a twist to this new thing. if somebody likes something, it makes them happy. people naturally want to be happy. so they'll do things that make them happy. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
| We never stopped getting'em, Anpanman, Tanjirou, Boku no hero, Toujima Tanzaburou. And we always had the more morally grey, Lina Inverse, Amuro Ray, Shinchan, Little Goku, . |
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| Well the prominence of these sorts of characters has indeed increased over time But villainous protags have been around since the times of Tezuka and Nagai |
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| I like characters like Lelouch the most. Morally neutral, practical, not unwilling to get his hands dirty if need be, but also not completely heartless and self-serving. |
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| According to the conspiracy theory, there is an effort to invert conventional morality. |
Reply to Magpareddi
@Sasori56483 Tanjiro tho? He's empathetic sure, but it's never been dialed up to the point it becomes annoying or naive. He does his job as ruthless as he has to be for the circumstance
| @Magpareddi It is not like he is trying to get rich/fed and as a side effect he has to beat demons. Or that he has depression and wants to not hop on the big robot and fight in the war kill the demons, because it is actually wrong. Or even that he lost his hand into torturing demons and killing people who are around (ruthlessly doing his job`d be this). I don`t see the deviation. I will quote other people on this, since my own opinion is that he is following a justice path: a0i-kun said: Eh he’s a bit annoying but he’s fine Ghonnorea said: One of the better “pure of heart” protagonists Platypus900 said: No, in my opinion, he's an extremely lackluster protagonist whose sole personality trait is being nice. There's little to no nuance behind his characterization that would make him remotely interesting or standout. DeonX said: I mean he's a wholesome cinnamon roll so I can't really hate him. He's the most bearable out of the trio Kitsune_089 said: hes the epitemy of kill them with kindness, overall 7,5/10 But feel free to change minds. |
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Reply to thewiru
SuperAdventure said:
Tshghdgrwkdnavbshf
Tshghdgrwkdnavbshf
It's "Tsuyokute", not hard to write.
SuperAdventure said:
who apparently liked murdering people,
and he did a lot of murdering in the anime.
who apparently liked murdering people,
and he did a lot of murdering in the anime.
Those parts were very bad in restrospect.
There's a scene where he kills fleeing and wounded soldiers just to farm aura, and that felt in very bad taste to me.
I can understand Kyle doing something like that, since he became jaded in the another timeline due to losing everything and wanting desperately to avoid that, which is why is 100% reasonable for him to murder the king.
...but Theron? WTF is wrong with Theron?
Maybe this happens further down the line, but I feel that a better story would explore more the aspect of Kyle's friends being distrustful/scared of him from doing such out-of-character things like that... then again, if they're fine with Theron being Theron, I don't think they will.
thewiru said: Yes, my problem with him murdering all those soldiers is they are basically just a bunch of ignorants who could not possibly hurt him who were ordered to be there and when they started giving up he ended all of them anyway. And queue the comments on the episode about how awesome he is. So OP is correct there is a definite trend of morally corrupt characters that are liked for being morally corrupt. Those parts were very bad in restrospect. There's a scene where he kills fleeing and wounded soldiers just to farm aura, and that felt in very bad taste to me. |
| Honestly the overly idealistic goody two-shoes are one of the few things I don't mind leaving in the past. I don't need my protagonist to be an outright maniac or murderer, but the goody two shoes are almost never fun to watch. |
I'm Ayanokouji Kiyotaka irl he's literally me fr   so I can't make sense of the world through the eyes of "justice slut". Although justice is not the problem, rather that these characters are always oversimplified with no nuance, like how the game is too rigged for real "justice" to exist in the first place. I like justice characters when they have lots of nuance to them and deal with these dilemmas and struggle to hold onto themselves and their ideals. But they will get burned for it, again and again, because it's unsustainable, sometimes their "justice" actions directly cause more harm, like to a brutal degree I want to see their idealism be attacked because otherwise it would just feel like a cruel joke. It would be interesting to see if there is a character that holds on to justice still, and I think this kind of thing is closer to modern anime than older anime. As for the shift in morally ambiguous characters, I think it might be the same reason as when you compare modern isekai to older isekai, modern isekai became increasingly more escapism fueled as the world becomes depressed. but I'd rather see more characters like https://myanimelist.net/character/171572/Cid_Kagenou |
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