| Some tweets of mine, for context: thewiru said: The problem with Moon Channel's video is that he seems to be so anti-commercialization that it feels that we wanted art to be something that causes physical and emotional pain/distress in the viewer to make them not want to buy it. He would probably enjoy the games by Activision-Blizzard. Another issue is that he tries to paint this narrative (With fake quotes, BTW) of Miyazaki as this authority figure, of which anime as stolen from, degenerated into a thing for otaku. Except it's not true? Like, it might make sense from an outside perspective, but if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else. They come from two different lineages from the 70's: Miyazaki comes from the Sekai Meisaku Gekijō lineage, modern otaku culture comes from stuff like Mazinger Z, Devilman and Matsumoto Leiji stuff saving the industry. The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias, but one must understand that the late-night anime you watch nowadays doesn't come from "The Miyazaki Tradition". Without "those pesky otaku", there's no Sci-fi boom, there's no OVA market, there's no Evangelion, there's no late-90's/early-2000's wave of experimentation that came from the success of Evangelion, there's no moe boom, etc You might say "oh, but I hate all those things", but if that's the case... my friend, you kinda hate anime, lol. This might not be the case as much nowadays, but it was a thing around a decade ago with people sharing (Once again, often fake or out-of-context) Miyazaki quotes like he was some form of "CEO of the anime industry", and not a director that complains about the industry since the days of Tezuka, thinks that the 50's were anime golden age, and who only directed a single TV anime, that being Mirai Shounen Conan. Once again: Miyazaki is a guy who does his own thing, it's wise to think of him as somewhat separate for what anime historically is, unless you're talking about anime movies specifically (Which are a middle-ground between being their own thing and also not). |
| Because everyone copies his stuff. It's hard to see any Japanese media (and even some international media) without seeing some reference to Nausicaa, Castle in the Sky, etc. Like, Hideaki Anno specifically modelled the Evas off his work on the God Warriors for Nausicaa. |
   Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you... |
Reply to MelodyOfMemory
Because everyone copies his stuff. It's hard to see any Japanese media (and even some international media) without seeing some reference to Nausicaa, Castle in the Sky, etc. Like, Hideaki Anno specifically modelled the Evas off his work on the God Warriors for Nausicaa.
MelodyOfMemory said: Because everyone copies his stuff. Give ten examples. Normally, when I ask for examples, I usually ask for 3, 5 at max, but you chose to use a strong word such as "EVERYONE", so 10 should be easy, right? And if we're using "Oh well, there's a design reference here and there" as an argument, then 80's men-of-action movie stars would be manga authorities. |
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MelodyOfMemoryJun 18, 10:56 PM
Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you... |
| Is because he IS an anime authority even if doesn't want to be (or if people should actually listen to the things he says). It doesn't really matter if he only complains about the industry or if his contributions towards the community are meaningful outside of his actual work, because the work itself is so meaningful on the history of anime that he just becomes a really important figure because of that. This is literally what happens in the NBA. There are several incredibly famous retired players who are quite literally a detriment to the sport, who spout nonsense wherever they go and who have nothing to add to modern basketball discourse. People still listen to them because they were once amazing players and icons inside of the sport (and they naturally attract the most people to listen to them). |
| "Those words are meant for those that dare defy god's final warning... An epigraph of their stubbornness" - Maho Hiyajo (Steins;Gate 0)    |
Reply to MelodyOfMemory
- Evas = God Warriors from Nausicaa. Also, Asuka's mother is based on Kushana's mother in the manga. This is the most direct lineage on the list since Hideaki Anno was a Nausicaa animator and a friend of Miyazaki.
- Final Fantasy's Chocobos = Horseclaws from Nausicaa
- Sonic the Hedgehog's Angel Island = Castle in the Sky
- Big the Cat = Totoro
- Trails in the Sky theme = Castle in the Sky theme (also, plenty of plot similiarities including a Dolan gang counterpart, the true villain's power seeking motives, and their own castle in the sky)
- Mega Man Legends = Castle in the Sky with Mega Man characters
- Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom's Sky Islands = Castle in the Sky
- Etrian Odyssey's plot twist = Nausicaa Manga's plot twist (not saying what it is because it's still obscure enough for a lot of people)
- Several Pokémon like Snorlax, Garbodor = Totoro
- Pokémon 4: Celebi: Voice of the Forest = Princess Mononoke
- Toy Story 3: Totoro cameo
- The Wild Robot: The creators outright stated that Roz's design is based on the golems from Castle in the Sky
- Beast Wars: There's an episode with a floating island that plays out suspiciously similarly to Castle in the Sky.
- Poi (indie video game): Final level is based on Castle in the Sky complete with suspiciously similar looking golems.
| @MelodyOfMemory It's that's the metric we're using, then half the world can be an authority in anime. |
Reply to thewiru
@MelodyOfMemory
It's that's the metric we're using, then half the world can be an authority in anime.
It's that's the metric we're using, then half the world can be an authority in anime.
| @thewiru You asked for 10 examples. Moving the goalposts is a logical fallacy. Also: thewiru said: Like, it might make sense from an outside perspective, but if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else. I disproved your point by pointing out Hideaki Anno's direct connections to Nausicaa, which I would have expected a self-proclaimed anime expert who snubs people for watching less than 50 shows to know about. You expect to be a anime Youtuber when you make outright false statements like this? |
MelodyOfMemoryJun 18, 11:04 PM
Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you... |
| I mean his work Nausicaa the Valley of the Wind it had many video influence like level 5 this why the Studio Ghibli Collab to create the Ni no Kuni series, there other studio ghibli was Collab in video games like the Jade Coccon series and the magic penel and graffiti Kingdom which also Collab I know not part of topic but I want to share the inspired on video games. |
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| FINALLY!! a decent looking sane post by wiru i can actually work with That dude is way over-rated by u zoomers, i mean i respect his contribution to anime ... but creators like Satoshi Kon are the true pioneers & were way ahead of people like Miyazaki i have absolutely no interest in ghibli or their works, iv never been a fan at all, his stuff looks boring |
ItachiDeltaForceJun 18, 11:48 PM
Reply to MelodyOfMemory
@thewiru You asked for 10 examples. Moving the goalposts is a logical fallacy.
Also:
I disproved your point by pointing out Hideaki Anno's direct connections to Nausicaa, which I would have expected a self-proclaimed anime expert who snubs people for watching less than 50 shows to know about. You expect to be a anime Youtuber when you make outright false statements like this?
Also:
thewiru said:
Like, it might make sense from an outside perspective, but if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else.
Like, it might make sense from an outside perspective, but if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else.
I disproved your point by pointing out Hideaki Anno's direct connections to Nausicaa, which I would have expected a self-proclaimed anime expert who snubs people for watching less than 50 shows to know about. You expect to be a anime Youtuber when you make outright false statements like this?
I never said that was the goalpost, I wanted examples to better understand what you were talking about, though I had my guesses, hence why I even "pre-answered": thewiru said: And if we're using "Oh well, there's a design reference here and there" as an argument, then 80's men-of-action movie stars would be manga authorities. Was this "moving the goalposts" when I just repeated the same argument I used when I asked the question? MelodyOfMemory said: I disproved your point by pointing out Hideaki Anno's direct connections to Nausicaa If you think that's "disproving my point", then you haven't understood my argument at a fundamental level and think everything is about "references" and not "lineage"/"tradition". MelodyOfMemory said: who snubs people for watching less than 50 shows to know about ...do I do that? MelodyOfMemory said: You expect to be a anime Youtuber when you make outright false statements like this? No, if I were to become an anime YouTuber, I would have to make even falser statements to compete with the kind of shit a lot of anime youtubers say. |
| Let me give you an example of what I mean: When I talk about Macross being important, I'm not talking about stuff like "Oh, there's a reference to it in Haruhi" or "Zeta Gundam got it's idea of transforming jets from there". I'm talking about way more fundamental things: The introduction of the idea of anime waifus as sex symbols, introducing a whole new idea of what "anison" could be, being the example of the influence of funding from the music industry in anime in the 80's, etc |
| Popularity mostly. Even people who aren't into anime have at least heard of his names and movies. Personally I think it just comes with the territory. Don't get me wrong I think his films are deserved appraise, but a part of me does kind of feel like many are overrated. |
 |
Is he? I didn’t know that. Anyway… |
| Well if you think about it as a matter of influence, most people in the community who care about this stuff can't name influential directors other than him, Hideaki Anno, Shinichiro Watanabe or Kunihiko Ikuhara, so of course every thing these directors have publicly said will be regarded as an important discourse. And I get your point about him coming from different traditions than other creators, but at the moment he said what he said, the industry was starting to get saturated by either ecchi or moeblob made by people who grew up as otaku, and that meant an overabundance of mid romcom or CGDCT series made by people just somewhat copying what they watched or played in their childhood instead of bringing new and exciting stories to the table coming from their own experiences. It was also the era of Sword Art Online, which I think just added to the fuel because of how divisive of the community that show was. There's also the fact that real life experiences, the old "write what you know" is one of the most basic storytelling advice and Miyazaki's otaku quote at that moment came from this place in its full context, which is why I think people took all the discourse seriously regardless of whether he was an author hailing from another tradition of anime or not, because it was actually becoming a problem within the anime and otaku communities. |
AtromentinaJun 19, 1:46 AM
 |
Reply to MelodyOfMemory
- Evas = God Warriors from Nausicaa. Also, Asuka's mother is based on Kushana's mother in the manga. This is the most direct lineage on the list since Hideaki Anno was a Nausicaa animator and a friend of Miyazaki.
- Final Fantasy's Chocobos = Horseclaws from Nausicaa
- Sonic the Hedgehog's Angel Island = Castle in the Sky
- Big the Cat = Totoro
- Trails in the Sky theme = Castle in the Sky theme (also, plenty of plot similiarities including a Dolan gang counterpart, the true villain's power seeking motives, and their own castle in the sky)
- Mega Man Legends = Castle in the Sky with Mega Man characters
- Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom's Sky Islands = Castle in the Sky
- Etrian Odyssey's plot twist = Nausicaa Manga's plot twist (not saying what it is because it's still obscure enough for a lot of people)
- Several Pokémon like Snorlax, Garbodor = Totoro
- Pokémon 4: Celebi: Voice of the Forest = Princess Mononoke
- Toy Story 3: Totoro cameo
- The Wild Robot: The creators outright stated that Roz's design is based on the golems from Castle in the Sky
- Beast Wars: There's an episode with a floating island that plays out suspiciously similarly to Castle in the Sky.
- Poi (indie video game): Final level is based on Castle in the Sky complete with suspiciously similar looking golems.
| @MelodyOfMemory Evas are god warriors from Nauusica? please change your drug pusher, he's making big damages to your brain. Evas are not god warriors from anything, Evas are Ultramen turned into mechas. You know, the guys who go around in red suits beating giant monsters and shouting "SHUWATCH!", those are what Evas are modeled after. Them and their opponents (one of the angels is a carbon-copy of Eleking from Ultraseven) are a regurgitation of Ultraman, of which Anno is a fan of. Miyazaki (who I personally found extremely overrated, I save of him only the Rupan Sansei movie and his contribution to Akage No Anne) had nothing to do with Evangelion in the slightest. |
ProudElitistJun 19, 1:54 AM
| Oh yeah, Gojira too had a big influence on Evangelion and its monsters. The 1984 Gojira movie ends in way that is reminescent of some episodes of Evangelion. Really, Eva is an huge tribute to the tokusatsus Anno was a fan of with some ladies thrown in there because us otakus like animated ladies and their tits/asses/pussies. Miyazaki never cared of any tokusatsu in the entirety of his life, he wasn't an influence on Evangelion in any shape, way or form. |
| Fuck it, I'll take the bait, because oh man today I feel like having some fun in the forums. thewiru said: Some tweets of mine, for context That's not the context. The context isn't the tweet: if it were the tweet, you're the one that's treating Myazaki like the anime authority and parading your own charade. The context is actually this video right here by moon channel. The main argument of this video is that Japan Aesthetic (mostly anime) have transformed from a way to deliver emotional and vulnerable stories to constructed escapist fantasies and fanservice, and since Gatcha games thrive upon fanservice and escapism, they employ anime aesthetic as a way to signal to the consumer that it's going to be "that type of game". Miyazaki isn't quoted in this video as an anime authority, but as an artist who, being in the industry, reflects upon how anime has evolved from an art form to to a product to sell to people what they want. He's not criticizing otaku creators expressing themselves through anime, he's criticizing the way a certain part of otaku culture has taken away the art from the artform, the meaning from his movies, and turned it into a product. To quote both the video and Miyazaki: It's difficult. [My female protagonists] immediately become the subjects of rorikon gokko (play toy for Lolita Complex males). In a sense, if we want to depict someone who is affirmative to us, we have no choice but to make them as lovely as possible. But now, there are too many people who shamelessly depict [such protagonists] as if they just want [such girls] as pets, and things are escalating more and more. Is he wrong to quote one of the most successful and renown anime artist worldwide? Does this quote somehow go against the thesis of the video or is misinterpreting what Miyazaki is saying? No, no. The use of quotes is correct, and, besides the above quote, which while attributed to him on many places, is hard to find the original version, the remaining quotes are easily findable online, like that one is famous for sparking the "anime is a mistake" meme, and this one needs the waybackmachine, but you can still see it. The last quote is kinda hard to find, it's still widely attributed to him in various articles, with the quote coming directly from a documentary which we don't really have easy access to on YouTube. Anyway, actual context established, I think it's time you dissect... your own tweet, what could go wrong , right? thewiru said: You're not wrong on the first part, the video has a strong preference towards art for the sake of the artist instead of art for the sake of a product, still, the "we wanted" part doesn't make sense a sentence coming off the first part of the phrase and 'art of the sake of the artist' doesn't have to be emotionally pain or distressing. It just needs to have a vision for existing besides just being sold as a product.so anti-commercialization that it feels that we wanted art to be something that causes physical and emotional pain/distress in the viewer to make them not want to buy it. thewiru said: He would probably enjoy the games by Activision-Blizzard. Congrats on your first fully earned saxophone point, please use it well on this charade. 🎷 thewiru said: Another issue is that he tries to paint this narrative (With fake quotes, BTW) I can't even link your fallacy here to get you a saxophone point. The quotes aren't fake you're just inventing a scenario so you're justified in disliking the video. it's fine, you can just not agree with it, instead, you march on with your little trumpet here, lousily making false claims for attention. That's 2 Saxophone points. 🎷🎷 thewiru said: Miyazaki as this authority figure Again, not authority figure, but artist in the buisness who has spoken a whole lot about anime and about what artistic vision in the anime space means. We have gone over this already, a saxophone made of straws for you. 🎷 thewiru said: The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias The video actually barely talks about otaku, it's more about consumer culture and consumeristic trends. All the anti-otaku bias you speak off are just the quotes of Miyazaki, old quotes, mind you, which don't come from the era where Otaku meant "Anime fan", it's specifically used to refer to people who use anime as a way to escape from reality, that interface with anime as a product - the type of person that watches a series just for that one beach episode and nothing else. The more "Hikkikomori-sh" type of anime fans, and the quotes made by Miyazaki make it clear that he's not talking about just any normal anime fan. At best, you fail to understand the words being spoken because you're too hanged on Miyazaki using the term "Otaku". At worst, you're, once again, strawmanning. Saxophone? 🎷 thewiru said: Miyazaki and Anno are good friends; People tend to consider Anno an 'Otaku' but it's clear that he didn't fit Miyazaki's use of the word. The ''Otakus'' who expanded the anime medium into Sci-fi, OVAs, all the edgy stuff and what have you, they're not the ''Otakus'' talked about by Miyazaki or the video. This is just getting sad, it's just failed text comprehension at this point.Without "those pesky otaku", there's no Sci-fi boom, there's no OVA market, there's no Evangelion, there's no late-90's/early-2000's wave of experimentation that came from the success of Evangelion thewiru said: you kinda hate anime, lol lol, +1 🎷. Also, please, let's not talk about studio ghibli as this historical monument that represents a past that has no longer any real following in today. Miyazaki, his movies, his style, studio ghibli, they're still talked, loved, and discussed to this day. Isolating it and all other bunch of arbitrary anime because it doesn't fit your personal narrow definition of what 'anime' is and what 'isn't' doesn't really change any discussion one can have between anime as a product and anime as an artform. Either way, congrats on this post, congrats on this charade, please, add these beautiful specimen to your march so that your uncontexted context tweet will get more attention by people who don't know what you're even talking about. ~ ~ ~ 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 ~ ~ ~ enjoy. |
DropOfLoveJun 19, 2:23 AM
Reply to MelodyOfMemory
- Evas = God Warriors from Nausicaa. Also, Asuka's mother is based on Kushana's mother in the manga. This is the most direct lineage on the list since Hideaki Anno was a Nausicaa animator and a friend of Miyazaki.
- Final Fantasy's Chocobos = Horseclaws from Nausicaa
- Sonic the Hedgehog's Angel Island = Castle in the Sky
- Big the Cat = Totoro
- Trails in the Sky theme = Castle in the Sky theme (also, plenty of plot similiarities including a Dolan gang counterpart, the true villain's power seeking motives, and their own castle in the sky)
- Mega Man Legends = Castle in the Sky with Mega Man characters
- Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom's Sky Islands = Castle in the Sky
- Etrian Odyssey's plot twist = Nausicaa Manga's plot twist (not saying what it is because it's still obscure enough for a lot of people)
- Several Pokémon like Snorlax, Garbodor = Totoro
- Pokémon 4: Celebi: Voice of the Forest = Princess Mononoke
- Toy Story 3: Totoro cameo
- The Wild Robot: The creators outright stated that Roz's design is based on the golems from Castle in the Sky
- Beast Wars: There's an episode with a floating island that plays out suspiciously similarly to Castle in the Sky.
- Poi (indie video game): Final level is based on Castle in the Sky complete with suspiciously similar looking golems.
| @MelodyOfMemory Evas = God Warriors from Nausicaa I think this is the literal case in rebuild. the silhouette suggests so. the evas were redesigned to be lanky things, missing the signature wide chests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_God_Warrior_Appears_in_Tokyo |
| 馬鹿げた倫理 全部ガラクタで |
| Because lots of people respect his works. |
Reply to nyugvo6
@MelodyOfMemory
Evas = God Warriors from Nausicaa
I think this is the literal case in rebuild. the silhouette suggests so.
the evas were redesigned to be lanky things, missing the signature wide chests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_God_Warrior_Appears_in_Tokyo
Evas = God Warriors from Nausicaa
I think this is the literal case in rebuild. the silhouette suggests so.
the evas were redesigned to be lanky things, missing the signature wide chests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_God_Warrior_Appears_in_Tokyo
| @nyugvo6 EVAs have nothing to do with Nauusica, they're Ultramen in mecha form. I have no idea why you think otherwise. I own the friggin' things in Lego form (including a giant 001 EVA), they have nothing of Miyazaki in it. Otherwise, if I put my Ultraseven/Ultraman Tiga/Ultraman Cosmos in Corona mode/Ultraman Gaia Action Figures next to them you can clearly see what originated what. That said, the thing about Miyazaki critizing animes because they gather to a certain public instead of being "an art form" has already been told by other people (particularly the chara designer of the harem leaning and absolutely not gathering to male otakus series such as Kimagure Orange Road Akemi Takada) and it is plain ridicolous coming from the guy who has a merchandise empire comparable to the one of George Lucas and whose products have always been cutesy because they tried to gather to a certain public from the very beginning, the children. Which is the reason why, the two exceptions I pointed out permitted, I've never liked the guy. Too purposedly childish for my tastes, and not even in a remotely good/enjoyable way like the episode of Bycrosser about the child having problems about pissing in the bed. |
ProudElitistJun 19, 3:32 AM
| People treat him like an emperor because, frankly, no one else can make depression look that whimsical. So yes, he just might be King Bradley the Studio Ghibli’s one-eyed monarch of melancholy. when Hayao Miyazaki walks into a room, even the sakura blossoms start animating themselves at 24 frames per second. Other directors make anime. Miyazaki makes cinematic lullabies. |
| "...why is Miyazaki treated like an anime authority?" Because he is one of the biggest and most prolific anime veterans (worked for World Masterpiece Theater and countless other projects, helped with and redefined Lupin III, had several attempts at his own studio and finally succeeded) and aside his working as writer and director he is undeniably one great animator. "directed a single TV anime" How is that a criterium for not being authority? Also you missed "episode director" and for example said episodes of Meitantei Holmes and Lupin III Part 2 are masterclass and practically mini-movies. Tho he may be anime authority, he is not an anime god. Other creators may listen to him and having their own interpretations or inspirations, but must not take his comments as some sort of holy text. |
alshuJun 19, 5:07 AM
| Cause he is. He's a legendary figure in the industry. He's very quoteable..... |
 |
| You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, “Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life.” If you don’t spend time watching real people, you can’t do this, because you’ve never seen it. Some people spend their lives interested only in themselves. Almost all Japanese animation is produced with hardly any basis taken from observing real people, you know. It’s produced by humans who can’t stand looking at other humans. And that’s why the industry is full of otaku! |
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helpppppp!  |
thewiru said: if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else. They come from two different lineages from the 70's: Miyazaki comes from the Sekai Meisaku Gekijō lineage, modern otaku culture comes from stuff like Mazinger Z, Devilman and Matsumoto Leiji stuff saving the industry. The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias, but one must understand that the late-night anime you watch nowadays doesn't come from "The Miyazaki Tradition" If you're an otaku, you kinda know that Miyazaki gave a chance to some otaku called Hideaki Anno on Nausicaä. A dude that would later create Gainax, a studio that started a massive shift in the industry towards late-night anime, and spawned a new generation of animators who created Trigger and literally saved anime with Kill la Kill. The Miyazaki->Gainax->Trigger lineage is like, the most influential in the industry. All the modern Miyazaki bashing is just garbage revisionism from western zoomers who don't have the attention span to watch a movie. DropOfLove said: Fuck it, I'll take the bait, because oh man today I feel like having some fun in the forums. You need to do this more often, I love saxophone! |
DeathkoJun 19, 6:47 AM
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
| He is an authority on nothing. His opinions are invalid. |
| Here is my Pixiv account of my hentai drawings..... https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/104739065 Here is my blog.... https://theendofindustrialcivilization.blogspot.com/?m=1 |
| Because he has famous works and is influential among his peers. |
 |
| Because his anime movies are the most famous of all time. |
| その目だれの目？ |
thewiru said: Yeah...I mean that is why, despite not always being happy with "otakus" driving the interest, I can't ever come to hate them. They created a lot of shit I really like, and honestly, it's more the domination of otaku culture, that annoys me. I am fine with it existing, and occasionally dip in and enjoy it.Without "those pesky otaku", there's no Sci-fi boom, there's no OVA market, there's no Evangelion, there's no late-90's/early-2000's wave of experimentation that came from the success of Evangelion, there's no moe boom, etc thewiru said: I mean yeah, I think a lot of people misunderstand, that Miyazaki probably also doesn't like what you like about anime. Miyazaki quotes like he was some form of "CEO of the anime industry", and not a director that complains about the industry since the days of Tezuka, thinks that the 50's were anime golden age, and who only directed a single TV anime, that being Mirai Shounen Conan. Future Boy Conan was a very well animated solid show, though that is how I feel about the small amount of Miyazaki works I have consumed. Amazing animation, solid but not impressive narrative. Still yeah...I mean he worked on other notable stuff Wiru. It wasn't just Conan. As for why? Ghilbi is respected internationally, and outside of the anime sphere, therefore Miyazaki gets a lot of respect...that simple. I do agree though, I don't like people who cite his opinions as truth. And while, I may not be an animator working in the industry, fact is other names within have also critiqued how much universal prestige he gets compared to the rest of the industry. Animation/art wise his works are top tier, I think the narratives, which people often bring up though, while solid, again aren't highlights of the industry either. .....Though honestly I just don't like Miyazaki more for his self righteous political opinions than anything anime related, so I just feel the need to trash him for that, anytime the moment presents itself. Outside of being a bad father, he represents a good amount of what I would identify as "political enemies". Edit: Also yeah haven't watched this video, and don't really intend to...again I really don't like Miyazaki, however, I wouldn't say it's wrong to use him to talk about anime commercialization, and how that can inhibit "art". I do think fans who overstate the disconnect between art and profit minded behaviour are wrong however, anime can be quite shameless about that, and it can lead to creatively dead works. As said, I can blame otaku culture for that to some extent, even if it is a powerful creative force as well. |
BilboBaggins365Jun 19, 7:22 AM
| Miyazaki a prolific, influential and awarded anime director with a lot of years of experience. This is one of the types of people that are considered an authority in any medium or industry. And while Ghibli movies and anime series aren't exactly the same industry, both are Japanese animation. They share more fundamentals than have differences. From the complete interviews and documentaries of his that I've read/watched, he only talks about things that are relevant to both. Animation, narrative, sense of reality... No one needs to agree with all of his opinions, but he isn't an outsider that knows nothing about he is talking. So I don't see any reason to not consider him an authority on anime. We shouldn't treat him as god and his words as the sole truth about it. He is just an authority, not the authority. But he isn't a random outsider that people are praising up just because he has a serious artist vibe and lots of memeable quotes. |
thewiru said: If you think that's "disproving my point", then you haven't understood my argument at a fundamental level and think everything is about "references" and not "lineage"/"tradition". Such is the quality of discourse on Anime Discussion. The Miyazaki/Anno relationship is something well known and on public record, yet people still deny it because it punctures their established narratives about anime. If you don't understand how Anno directly working with Miyazaki on one of his most iconic and influential works creates a lineage, then go enjoy your delusional sunset. |
Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you... |
| Even though he is the more talented of the two Isao Takahata will always be overshadowed by Miyazaki. Just the other day I was talking to someone who believed Takahata was Miyazaki's student. |
| Because his movies have mainstream popularity and can use that he's the only anime director to get a best animation category win, so he has authority. I think his movies are fine but he's a elitist snob. What kind of father walks out on his own kid's movie? LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. I really think his kids might grow up with a complex, like Jake Roberts did because of his own father being mean to him and never supporting his dreams And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles. |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. We're freaking out that we're running out of time, but to do what? Should i stop and think of that? Is there something i could do to slow it down? Live in a day for once, instead of watch it sprinting by |
Reply to TheBlockernator
Because his movies have mainstream popularity and can use that he's the only anime director to get a best animation category win, so he has authority.
I think his movies are fine but he's a elitist snob. What kind of father walks out on his own kid's movie? LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. I really think his kids might grow up with a complex, like Jake Roberts did because of his own father being mean to him and never supporting his dreams
And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles.
I think his movies are fine but he's a elitist snob. What kind of father walks out on his own kid's movie? LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. I really think his kids might grow up with a complex, like Jake Roberts did because of his own father being mean to him and never supporting his dreams
And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles.
TheBlockernator said: What kind of father walks out on his own kid's movie? LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. I really think his kids might grow up with a complex, like Jake Roberts did because of his own father being mean to him and never supporting his dreams Wow, he just left for a smoke. First-world problems indeed =)) And why cutting things down for your own convenience? During a screening of the film, Gorō's father, Hayao Miyazaki, walked out for a smoke break, commenting, "You shouldn't make a picture based on your emotions".[47] When asked his thoughts, he said, "I was looking at my kid. He's not an adult yet. That is all."[48] He later wrote a message for his son: "It was made honestly, so it was good".[49] And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles. Pixar wasn't even in the producer list or a part of Disney before 2006, duh. A and B are separate matters. And he worked, went to the kitchen and had meals like other staff members. What kind of discrimination is this? |
SgtBateManJun 19, 10:05 AM
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helpppppp! |
| because he got popular in his field and made lots of money, he became successful. Isn't this normal? |
    |
| As stated over and over by everyone else: Miyazaki is a prolific and talented person who's worked in the industry for 50+ years, and made many beautiful and well received movies beloved by Anime and non-anime fans alike. You're allowed to disagree with his opinions, not like his movies, or not like him as a person (he's kinda a miserable prick in my opinion). However, how you feel about him does not remove the authority he has. |
 |
TheBlockernator said: And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles. His perfectionism is what enabled a masterpiece like Spirited Away to be created, whereby something for which production started over 25 years ago in 2000 you can pop in the DVD for now and still easily looks as good as if it were released this morning. |
| Why is Quentin Tarantino treated like a cinema authority? |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
Reply to TheBlockernator
Because his movies have mainstream popularity and can use that he's the only anime director to get a best animation category win, so he has authority.
I think his movies are fine but he's a elitist snob. What kind of father walks out on his own kid's movie? LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. I really think his kids might grow up with a complex, like Jake Roberts did because of his own father being mean to him and never supporting his dreams
And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles.
I think his movies are fine but he's a elitist snob. What kind of father walks out on his own kid's movie? LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. I really think his kids might grow up with a complex, like Jake Roberts did because of his own father being mean to him and never supporting his dreams
And on the spirited away BTS on the dvd, he's a terrible, overworking boss! You know how Pixar has caterers for their crew? They eat ramen noodles.
TheBlockernator said: LIke your son has a film in theaters and i know most parents would be so proud of that. Most fathers don't direct movies, to be fair. Gorou got his job through connections rather than talent. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| I see him as an ambassador of Japanese animation for the "normies" and the international audience. He's been that for decades. I was certainly watching his movies and talking about them looong before I got into anime. He seems to be the only "anime" creator that one can bring up in any circle outside anime fandom without weirding people out or getting laughed at. His movies just feel like... movies. Not made for anime fans, but for anyone. And that has power. |
| I'm thinking about the people that mention the connection between Miyazaki and Anno and how Miyazaki must have been extremely pissed off of how Fushigi No Umi No Nadia turned out, from a children-tailored show with nothing sexual in it to a show filled to the brim of GainaxTM fanservice, blood and continuous Ultraman/tokusatsu references (the crosses, the secret society which is just an overblown elaboration of the presentation of the japanese government in the 1984 Gojira movie, the M-78 Galaxy) mixed with the depression the guy had at the time. If I was in him I would have been extremely angry at my initial idea being squandered in such a way. BTW, no the majority of his movies are not made for everyone, they're made for children first and foremost. They gather to children like his themes gather to children, and not even in a interesting way like the continous references to ecology in tokusatsus, which has given us masterpieces like the episode of Choujin Sentai Jetman where the toy bear made of gargabe dies, or the whale in Kamen Rider Black starting the idea that the exploding monsters could go more in deep than a two-minutes appareance on the screen. No idea why anyone other than children give him any credit to begin with except for the stuff he made at the very start of his career, at least tokusatsus have action and possible JAV/Gravure idols to entice older audiences. |
ProudElitistJun 19, 11:15 AM
Reply to DropOfLove
Fuck it, I'll take the bait, because oh man today I feel like having some fun in the forums.
That's not the context. The context isn't the tweet: if it were the tweet, you're the one that's treating Myazaki like the anime authority and parading your own charade.
The context is actually this video right here by moon channel.
The main argument of this video is that Japan Aesthetic (mostly anime) have transformed from a way to deliver emotional and vulnerable stories to constructed escapist fantasies and fanservice, and since Gatcha games thrive upon fanservice and escapism, they employ anime aesthetic as a way to signal to the consumer that it's going to be "that type of game".
Miyazaki isn't quoted in this video as an anime authority, but as an artist who, being in the industry, reflects upon how anime has evolved from an art form to to a product to sell to people what they want. He's not criticizing otaku creators expressing themselves through anime, he's criticizing the way a certain part of otaku culture has taken away the art from the artform, the meaning from his movies, and turned it into a product. To quote both the video and Miyazaki:
Anyway, actual context established, I think it's time you dissect... your own tweet, what could go wrong , right?
Congrats on your first fully earned saxophone point, please use it well on this charade. 🎷
I can't even link your fallacy here to get you a saxophone point. The quotes aren't fake you're just inventing a scenario so you're justified in disliking the video. it's fine, you can just not agree with it, instead, you march on with your little trumpet here, lousily making false claims for attention. That's 2 Saxophone points. 🎷🎷
Again, not authority figure, but artist in the buisness who has spoken a whole lot about anime and about what artistic vision in the anime space means. We have gone over this already, a saxophone made of straws for you. 🎷
The video actually barely talks about otaku, it's more about consumer culture and consumeristic trends. All the anti-otaku bias you speak off are just the quotes of Miyazaki, old quotes, mind you, which don't come from the era where Otaku meant "Anime fan", it's specifically used to refer to people who use anime as a way to escape from reality, that interface with anime as a product - the type of person that watches a series just for that one beach episode and nothing else. The more "Hikkikomori-sh" type of anime fans, and the quotes made by Miyazaki make it clear that he's not talking about just any normal anime fan. At best, you fail to understand the words being spoken because you're too hanged on Miyazaki using the term "Otaku". At worst, you're, once again, strawmanning. Saxophone? 🎷
lol, +1 🎷.
Also, please, let's not talk about studio ghibli as this historical monument that represents a past that has no longer any real following in today.
Miyazaki, his movies, his style, studio ghibli, they're still talked, loved, and discussed to this day. Isolating it and all other bunch of arbitrary anime because it doesn't fit your personal narrow definition of what 'anime' is and what 'isn't' doesn't really change any discussion one can have between anime as a product and anime as an artform.
Either way, congrats on this post, congrats on this charade, please, add these beautiful specimen to your march so that your uncontexted context tweet will get more attention by people who don't know what you're even talking about.
thewiru said:
Some tweets of mine, for context
Some tweets of mine, for context
That's not the context. The context isn't the tweet: if it were the tweet, you're the one that's treating Myazaki like the anime authority and parading your own charade.
The context is actually this video right here by moon channel.
The main argument of this video is that Japan Aesthetic (mostly anime) have transformed from a way to deliver emotional and vulnerable stories to constructed escapist fantasies and fanservice, and since Gatcha games thrive upon fanservice and escapism, they employ anime aesthetic as a way to signal to the consumer that it's going to be "that type of game".
Miyazaki isn't quoted in this video as an anime authority, but as an artist who, being in the industry, reflects upon how anime has evolved from an art form to to a product to sell to people what they want. He's not criticizing otaku creators expressing themselves through anime, he's criticizing the way a certain part of otaku culture has taken away the art from the artform, the meaning from his movies, and turned it into a product. To quote both the video and Miyazaki:
It's difficult. [My female protagonists] immediately become the subjects of rorikon gokko (play toy for Lolita Complex males). In a sense, if we want to depict someone who is affirmative to us, we have no choice but to make them as lovely as possible. But now, there are too many people who shamelessly depict [such protagonists] as if they just want [such girls] as pets, and things are escalating more and more.
Is he wrong to quote one of the most successful and renown anime artist worldwide? Does this quote somehow go against the thesis of the video or is misinterpreting what Miyazaki is saying? No, no. The use of quotes is correct, and, besides the above quote, which while attributed to him on many places, is hard to find the original version, the remaining quotes are easily findable online, like that one is famous for sparking the "anime is a mistake" meme, and this one needs the waybackmachine, but you can still see it. The last quote is kinda hard to find, it's still widely attributed to him in various articles, with the quote coming directly from a documentary which we don't really have easy access to on YouTube. Anyway, actual context established, I think it's time you dissect... your own tweet, what could go wrong , right?
thewiru said:
so anti-commercialization that it feels that we wanted art to be something that causes physical and emotional pain/distress in the viewer to make them not want to buy it.
You're not wrong on the first part, the video has a strong preference towards art for the sake of the artist instead of art for the sake of a product, still, the "we wanted" part doesn't make sense a sentence coming off the first part of the phrase and 'art of the sake of the artist' doesn't have to be emotionally pain or distressing. It just needs to have a vision for existing besides just being sold as a product.so anti-commercialization that it feels that we wanted art to be something that causes physical and emotional pain/distress in the viewer to make them not want to buy it.
thewiru said:
He would probably enjoy the games by Activision-Blizzard.
He would probably enjoy the games by Activision-Blizzard.
Congrats on your first fully earned saxophone point, please use it well on this charade. 🎷
thewiru said:
Another issue is that he tries to paint this narrative (With fake quotes, BTW)
Another issue is that he tries to paint this narrative (With fake quotes, BTW)
I can't even link your fallacy here to get you a saxophone point. The quotes aren't fake you're just inventing a scenario so you're justified in disliking the video. it's fine, you can just not agree with it, instead, you march on with your little trumpet here, lousily making false claims for attention. That's 2 Saxophone points. 🎷🎷
thewiru said:
Miyazaki as this authority figure
Miyazaki as this authority figure
Again, not authority figure, but artist in the buisness who has spoken a whole lot about anime and about what artistic vision in the anime space means. We have gone over this already, a saxophone made of straws for you. 🎷
thewiru said:
The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias
The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias
The video actually barely talks about otaku, it's more about consumer culture and consumeristic trends. All the anti-otaku bias you speak off are just the quotes of Miyazaki, old quotes, mind you, which don't come from the era where Otaku meant "Anime fan", it's specifically used to refer to people who use anime as a way to escape from reality, that interface with anime as a product - the type of person that watches a series just for that one beach episode and nothing else. The more "Hikkikomori-sh" type of anime fans, and the quotes made by Miyazaki make it clear that he's not talking about just any normal anime fan. At best, you fail to understand the words being spoken because you're too hanged on Miyazaki using the term "Otaku". At worst, you're, once again, strawmanning. Saxophone? 🎷
thewiru said:
Without "those pesky otaku", there's no Sci-fi boom, there's no OVA market, there's no Evangelion, there's no late-90's/early-2000's wave of experimentation that came from the success of Evangelion
Miyazaki and Anno are good friends; People tend to consider Anno an 'Otaku' but it's clear that he didn't fit Miyazaki's use of the word. The ''Otakus'' who expanded the anime medium into Sci-fi, OVAs, all the edgy stuff and what have you, they're not the ''Otakus'' talked about by Miyazaki or the video. This is just getting sad, it's just failed text comprehension at this point.Without "those pesky otaku", there's no Sci-fi boom, there's no OVA market, there's no Evangelion, there's no late-90's/early-2000's wave of experimentation that came from the success of Evangelion
thewiru said:
you kinda hate anime, lol
you kinda hate anime, lol
lol, +1 🎷.
Also, please, let's not talk about studio ghibli as this historical monument that represents a past that has no longer any real following in today.
Miyazaki, his movies, his style, studio ghibli, they're still talked, loved, and discussed to this day. Isolating it and all other bunch of arbitrary anime because it doesn't fit your personal narrow definition of what 'anime' is and what 'isn't' doesn't really change any discussion one can have between anime as a product and anime as an artform.
Either way, congrats on this post, congrats on this charade, please, add these beautiful specimen to your march so that your uncontexted context tweet will get more attention by people who don't know what you're even talking about.
~ ~ ~ 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 🎷🐘 ~ ~ ~
enjoy.DropOfLove said: The main argument of this video is that Japan Aesthetic (mostly anime) have transformed from a way to deliver emotional and vulnerable stories to constructed escapist fantasies and fanservice Which is false and is just him repeating Miyazaki's doomerism. DropOfLove said: Miyazaki isn't quoted in this video as an anime authority, but as an artist who, being in the industry, reflects upon how anime has evolved from an art form to to a product to sell to people what they want. He's not criticizing otaku creators expressing themselves through anime, he's criticizing the way a certain part of otaku culture has taken away the art from the artform, the meaning from his movies, and turned it into a product. See? You're doing the exact thing I described: "Another issue is that he tries to paint this narrative (With fake quotes, BTW) of Miyazaki as this authority figure, of which anime as stolen from, degenerated into a thing for otaku." DropOfLove said: Is he wrong to quote one of the most successful and renown anime artist worldwide? Does this quote somehow go against the thesis of the video or is misinterpreting what Miyazaki is saying? No, no. The use of quotes is correct BZZTTTT, WROOOOONG! Watch this video, he explain how this exact quote is mischaracterized: DropOfLove said: It just needs to have a vision for existing besides just being sold as a product. Therefore his criticizing something that doesn't exist. DropOfLove said: Congrats on your first fully earned saxophone point, please use it well on this charade. 🎷 It was a joke, I was joking about the fact that games by Activision-Blizzard are so bad that they cause you physical and emotional distress and make you not want to buy them. DropOfLove said: I can't even link your fallacy here to get you a saxophone point. The quotes aren't fake you're just inventing a scenario so you're justified in disliking the video. it's fine, you can just not agree with it, instead, you march on with your little trumpet here, lousily making false claims for attention. That's 2 Saxophone points. 🎷🎷 The fact that you so wrong here makes me not want to leave anything you say seriously. I've linked the video, there are fake quotes there. DropOfLove said: The video actually barely talks about otaku, it's more about consumer culture and consumeristic trends. >the video isn't about otaku, it's just about one of the three pillars that form what being an otaku is DropOfLove said: Miyazaki and Anno are good friends; People tend to consider Anno an 'Otaku' but it's clear that he didn't fit Miyazaki's use of the word. The ''Otakus'' who expanded the anime medium into Sci-fi, OVAs, all the edgy stuff and what have you, they're not the ''Otakus'' talked about by Miyazaki or the video. This is just getting sad, it's just failed text comprehension at this point. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/No_true_Scotsman |
Reply to Deathko
thewiru said:
if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else. They come from two different lineages from the 70's: Miyazaki comes from the Sekai Meisaku Gekijō lineage, modern otaku culture comes from stuff like Mazinger Z, Devilman and Matsumoto Leiji stuff saving the industry.
The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias, but one must understand that the late-night anime you watch nowadays doesn't come from "The Miyazaki Tradition"
if you're an otaku, you kinda know that the anime industry is one thing, and that Ghibli does it's own thing unrelated to everyone else. They come from two different lineages from the 70's: Miyazaki comes from the Sekai Meisaku Gekijō lineage, modern otaku culture comes from stuff like Mazinger Z, Devilman and Matsumoto Leiji stuff saving the industry.
The video itself comes from an anti-otaku bias, but one must understand that the late-night anime you watch nowadays doesn't come from "The Miyazaki Tradition"
If you're an otaku, you kinda know that Miyazaki gave a chance to some otaku called Hideaki Anno on Nausicaä. A dude that would later create Gainax, a studio that started a massive shift in the industry towards late-night anime, and spawned a new generation of animators who created Trigger and literally saved anime with Kill la Kill.
The Miyazaki->Gainax->Trigger lineage is like, the most influential in the industry. All the modern Miyazaki bashing is just garbage revisionism from western zoomers who don't have the attention span to watch a movie.
DropOfLove said:
Fuck it, I'll take the bait, because oh man today I feel like having some fun in the forums.
Fuck it, I'll take the bait, because oh man today I feel like having some fun in the forums.
You need to do this more often, I love saxophone!
Deathko said: If you're an otaku, you kinda know that Miyazaki gave a chance to some otaku called Hideaki Anno on Nausicaä. >I'm not racist, I have one friend who's black |
| He is an authority on nothing, if you ask me. He has proven to have zero authority over anything, let's be honest. |
| Here is my Pixiv account of my hentai drawings..... https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/104739065 Here is my blog.... https://theendofindustrialcivilization.blogspot.com/?m=1 |
Deathko said: Hii Deathy, long time no see. I'll doot one for you. 🎷🐘You need to do this more often, I love saxophone! MelodyOfMemory said: Such is the quality of discourse on Anime Discussion This isn't discussion, there's no discussion here. One guy dislikes a video and hates that Miyazaki, in 2004 and 1998, used the word "Otaku" to refer to a certain subgroup of anime fans. He strawmans the argument and then creates this topic where he begs the question as a way to get some anger off and find personal satisfaction in people rallying to his opinion. This isn't anime discourse, My-Mélodie, this is a vent thread. |
Reply to Phosphophyllita
Why is Quentin Tarantino treated like a cinema authority?
| @Phosphophyllita You have to separate Tarantino-the-director from Tarantino-the-cinephile. Even if you dislike his movies, he's someone who watches and appreciates a lot of them. |
| He shaped Japanese animation along many other masters, it's good to have such a historical figure as an alternative voice over the current industry. He's a genius, as a writer, director and animator. His talent and trajectory makes him a voice of authority, specially if you consider how Asian culture regards masters. It's ok if you don't agree with his vision, but many directors quoted in this thread worked with him as their mentor and were deeply inspired by his sensibility. Anime has many schools, it'd be short sighted to compare him with other masters from different genres just for the sake of talking about numbers and popularity. And being fair, he's not only recognised by the Japanese art universities, art foundations and the population, he was also nominated for numerous oscars so, what more do you need? Again, you can enjoy his sensibility more or less but the guy is a living legend that shaped anime culture and that's a fact. |
Reply to DropOfLove
Deathko said:
You need to do this more often, I love saxophone!
Hii Deathy, long time no see. I'll doot one for you. 🎷🐘You need to do this more often, I love saxophone!
MelodyOfMemory said:
Such is the quality of discourse on Anime Discussion
Such is the quality of discourse on Anime Discussion
This isn't discussion, there's no discussion here.
One guy dislikes a video and hates that Miyazaki, in 2004 and 1998, used the word "Otaku" to refer to a certain subgroup of anime fans.
He strawmans the argument and then creates this topic where he begs the question as a way to get some anger off and find personal satisfaction in people rallying to his opinion.
This isn't anime discourse, My-Mélodie, this is a vent thread.
| @DropOfLove Yep. And he's been making these self-indulgent vent threads for ages, all in obvious bad faith. I only respond to him to deny him the sycophanic stream of yes men he actually wants, but it was entertaining to see you take him down more thoroughly. |
Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you... |
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