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What did you think of this episode?
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Jul 12, 10:02 AM
#51
Interesting enough, so Makoto's mother is sexist? I don't know, but it catches my attention that the anime digs deeper into that. |
Jul 12, 10:10 AM
#52
I really enjoy the comedic chibis in the earlier episodes like this focusing on the friendhsip that forged between the trio. And from the OP, you could tell that they are brewing an intense drama probably starting from the midway to the end of the show. The point of the show not directly take itself seriously is to make us familiar with them and make us care for them when the drama finally hits. I actually really like the direction that they take before all of this turn into a mess? who knows. It will probably focusing on a slow transformation from a friendship of weird people into a love triangle between them and how societal expectations will affect their realtionship along the way. About Makoto's mom being sexist is a very real thing for Asian people. It's as they always conform on societal expectations and norms so firmly. They will be panic for a slightest hintfor being abnormal or different than other people, screw that! Ah, I could tell that this is my current fav summer seasonal so far. |
VivaceRexJul 12, 10:33 AM
Jul 12, 10:33 AM
#53
the mom is going to be a problem for sure I already can tell |
Jul 12, 11:58 AM
#54
@traed I don't agree with that interpretation. He's a male wearing clothing more traditionally associated with females, he would still be "crossdressing" whether he was trans or not. There are many signs that point to him being more comfortable existing as a girl and being seen that way by society, rather than simply being a boy who enjoys girly things. Bringing up identity is misleading, because it's not a question of whether he currently identifies as a girl or trans (he doesn't) but whether or not he is trans internally, experiences gender dysphoria, and would be happier to live/identify as the female gender. You have to remember this is (conservative) Japan we're talking about, so I expect a certain amount of ambiguity when it comes to this subject matter, but that certainly doesn't rule out a trans reading of the character. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 12, 12:15 PM
#55
This is honestly one of the best things airing this season. Saki, Makoto and Ryuuji have such a good dynamic together. This episode I feel like we really got to see what Makoto and Saki's dynamic will be like through the show. Ryuuji is clearly a case of he don't realise he's in love and eventually will be snapped out of it. Honestly the situation with the handkerchief that Makoto's mother found can easily just be blown over by saying it was Saki's so if he's mother does start suspecting things then that's kinda stupid imo. But hey I know she's gonna find out eventually. honestly I have tons of respect for Makoto, trying to be his true self must be really hard for him and I have nothing but respect for him. and to anyone who thinks what Makoto is doing is weird just drop the show now. |
Jul 12, 12:35 PM
#56
Aaaa what a nice anime to watch, it warms my heart. It's kind of simple, the plot and the lines deliver well and as it's literally the first anime I've seen of its kind, for me it's more than great. I hope the three develop a romance (I haven't read the original). |
Jul 12, 12:46 PM
#57
Reply to LostSpectre
@Marinate1016 I think it's certainly leaning towards him being trans, but whether or not that subject gets tackled in any "legitimate" sense remains to be seen, but the series is clearly trans coded, if nothing else. Now, don't get confused that he refers to himself as a boy, because he's a male, that's just how society views him by default. We don't know how he truly wishes to identify, whether or not he's aware of what it means to be "trans" or whether that's even a real concept in the story itself. I would be surprised if the series didn't keep thinks more ambiguous, so to speak.
@LostSpectre I thought Otokonoko was different from a trans person? |
Jul 12, 12:47 PM
#58
Reply to Phantom_373
This is honestly one of the best things airing this season. Saki, Makoto and Ryuuji have such a good dynamic together. This episode I feel like we really got to see what Makoto and Saki's dynamic will be like through the show. Ryuuji is clearly a case of he don't realise he's in love and eventually will be snapped out of it.
Honestly the situation with the handkerchief that Makoto's mother found can easily just be blown over by saying it was Saki's so if he's mother does start suspecting things then that's kinda stupid imo. But hey I know she's gonna find out eventually.
honestly I have tons of respect for Makoto, trying to be his true self must be really hard for him and I have nothing but respect for him.
and to anyone who thinks what Makoto is doing is weird just drop the show now.
Honestly the situation with the handkerchief that Makoto's mother found can easily just be blown over by saying it was Saki's so if he's mother does start suspecting things then that's kinda stupid imo. But hey I know she's gonna find out eventually.
honestly I have tons of respect for Makoto, trying to be his true self must be really hard for him and I have nothing but respect for him.
and to anyone who thinks what Makoto is doing is weird just drop the show now.
@Phantom_373 A lot of you are missing that the mother has been aware of Makoto's feminine inclinations for years, and that her behavior is a direct result of that, constantly reinforcing masculine norms for boys, Makoto having to be hyperaware not to behave femininely in the home, etc. So, I disagree that saying he got the handkerchief from Saki, while also having hidden it, would make for an easily plausible excuse, all things considered. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 12, 12:54 PM
#59
Reply to _hermit_
@LostSpectre I thought Otokonoko was different from a trans person?
@_hermit_ There is a difference, but we do not have enough information to rule out a trans interpretation of the character by any means. To be clear, he is not currently trans/using feminine pronouns, it's a matter of whether he's closeted/internally trans at this stage. This is also much more complicated because the concept of transness almost never exists in anime, gender is only defined by biological sex. |
LostSpectreJul 12, 1:00 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 12, 4:42 PM
#60
I knew the t word brainrot would be there already...guys, let femboys be femboys pls... |
bruh |
Jul 12, 7:53 PM
#61
Usually this kinda of anime is not my thing, but so far I don't hate it. Interesting to see what happen next. |
Jul 12, 8:00 PM
#62
shes acting like its a bag of cocaine is just a handkerchief bro 😭 easy for him to say its aois it aint been too bad, just feels rushed and the pacing is a bit off |
Jul 12, 8:18 PM
#63
Reply to FullyCharged
I knew the t word brainrot would be there already...guys, let femboys be femboys pls...
@FullyCharged Transgender people exist, not everyone is a "femboy" my guy. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 12, 8:24 PM
#64
Reply to LostSpectre
@traed
I don't agree with that interpretation. He's a male wearing clothing more traditionally associated with females, he would still be "crossdressing" whether he was trans or not. There are many signs that point to him being more comfortable existing as a girl and being seen that way by society, rather than simply being a boy who enjoys girly things. Bringing up identity is misleading, because it's not a question of whether he currently identifies as a girl or trans (he doesn't) but whether or not he is trans internally, experiences gender dysphoria, and would be happier to live/identify as the female gender. You have to remember this is (conservative) Japan we're talking about, so I expect a certain amount of ambiguity when it comes to this subject matter, but that certainly doesn't rule out a trans reading of the character.
I don't agree with that interpretation. He's a male wearing clothing more traditionally associated with females, he would still be "crossdressing" whether he was trans or not. There are many signs that point to him being more comfortable existing as a girl and being seen that way by society, rather than simply being a boy who enjoys girly things. Bringing up identity is misleading, because it's not a question of whether he currently identifies as a girl or trans (he doesn't) but whether or not he is trans internally, experiences gender dysphoria, and would be happier to live/identify as the female gender. You have to remember this is (conservative) Japan we're talking about, so I expect a certain amount of ambiguity when it comes to this subject matter, but that certainly doesn't rule out a trans reading of the character.
@LostSpectre Crossdressing doesn't necessarily suggest some of the things he is doing, it goes beyond that since the wig and also trying on makeup. I do get why he could be interpreted as trans so im not ruling it out but it's not like the notion is alien to Japan to the point they would not portray it as identifying as a girl so why identify as a boy even in his own head? Which I have seen before in the manga Bokura no Hentai three characters that crossdress but only one is a trans girl who identifies as a girl not a boy. So is it how Japanese trans people think a certain way more than Western ones would or is it a general ignorance or just something else? It's not like I'm trying to jump through hoops, it's more I'm trying not to make too many assumptions based on a Western influenced mindset. I'm not saying a trans person would not relate with Makoto. |
traedJul 12, 8:29 PM
Jul 12, 8:46 PM
#65
Reply to traed
@LostSpectre
Crossdressing doesn't necessarily suggest some of the things he is doing, it goes beyond that since the wig and also trying on makeup. I do get why he could be interpreted as trans so im not ruling it out but it's not like the notion is alien to Japan to the point they would not portray it as identifying as a girl so why identify as a boy even in his own head? Which I have seen before in the manga Bokura no Hentai three characters that crossdress but only one is a trans girl who identifies as a girl not a boy. So is it how Japanese trans people think a certain way more than Western ones would or is it a general ignorance or just something else? It's not like I'm trying to jump through hoops, it's more I'm trying not to make too many assumptions based on a Western influenced mindset. I'm not saying a trans person would not relate with Makoto.
Crossdressing doesn't necessarily suggest some of the things he is doing, it goes beyond that since the wig and also trying on makeup. I do get why he could be interpreted as trans so im not ruling it out but it's not like the notion is alien to Japan to the point they would not portray it as identifying as a girl so why identify as a boy even in his own head? Which I have seen before in the manga Bokura no Hentai three characters that crossdress but only one is a trans girl who identifies as a girl not a boy. So is it how Japanese trans people think a certain way more than Western ones would or is it a general ignorance or just something else? It's not like I'm trying to jump through hoops, it's more I'm trying not to make too many assumptions based on a Western influenced mindset. I'm not saying a trans person would not relate with Makoto.
@traed While trans people aren't a completely foreign concept to Japan, they basically don't exist in anime, and gender is most often determined solely by biological sex. I don't think it necessarily means anything that he "identifies" as a boy because that's simply the label society places on him by default, as a biological male. We would have to have context on what he actually knows about trans identity or intersecting subjects, in order to be able to make any sort of definitive statements, and I just wouldn't expect the author to be that direct about such matters. Even if he felt trans the reality of being able to transition is nothing more than a dream at this point in the story, due to the constraints his mother places on him. Anyway, I'm not saying he is trans, just that being a "crossdresser" doesn't in any way rule the possibility out. |
LostSpectreJul 12, 8:59 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 12, 8:58 PM
#66
Reply to LostSpectre
@traed While trans people aren't a completely foreign concept to Japan, they basically don't exist in anime, and gender is most often determined solely by biological sex. I don't think it necessarily means anything that he "identifies" as a boy because that's simply the label society places on him by default, as a biological male. We would have to have context on what he actually knows about trans identity or intersecting subjects, in order to be able to make any sort of definitive statements, and I just wouldn't expect the author to be that direct about such matters. Even if he felt trans the reality of being able to transition is nothing more than a dream at this point in the story, due to the constraints his mother places on him.
Anyway, I'm not saying he is trans, just that being a "crossdresser" doesn't in any way rule the possibility out.
Anyway, I'm not saying he is trans, just that being a "crossdresser" doesn't in any way rule the possibility out.
@LostSpectre Nao-chan from Skip and Loafer definitely seemed to be a trans woman. Yeah I am aware they just might view things differently in Japan even among those who are trans though Japan also had a time in Edo period where they had what was technically a third gender and Japan only had negative views of gender nonconformity and homosexuality after the Western influenced Meiji Restoration. Well yeah I didn't say it ruled it out to begin with, that is what a trans girl would do. |
Jul 12, 9:07 PM
#67
@traed Your original comment gave off the impression of disproving a trans reading of the character, at least that's how it seemed to me. I think we're all on the same page now, though. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 12, 9:20 PM
#68
I recognize how Makoto's mom acts, mine was the same. Her immediately accepting Saki solves a lot of problems for Makoto, if anything 'cute' is found in his possession, he can just say it's Aoi/from Aoi and she'll accept it. Cherishing something from your girlfriend is how a boy (in love) acts I have a feeling Makoto's going to mess it up somehow though |
Jul 13, 2:57 AM
#69
The mom is honestly weird. Though I can understand her not wanting her own son the be an otokonoko but this is new times. Also seeming so depressed for finding that handkerchief. She has issues. Otherwise, lots of comedy moments. I enjoyed that. Not looking forward to the next episode since apparently some drama is going to be involved. Ugh... |
"You only realize the real value of something you discarded when you get the chance to pick it up again." - Rudeus Greyrat |
Jul 13, 4:06 AM
#70
Just tell the handkerchief is from your classmate, easy crisis averted. Okabe will like her. |
Jul 13, 5:02 AM
#71
Why was the handkerchief such a big problem? He couldn't say that a girl gave it to him? Or does his mom hate feminine things so much that she wants her son to be a zealous representative of hachimuchi? @LostSpectre otokonoko is literally a boy playing a female role. Regardless of the reasons, sexuality or gender, etc. For example, Astolfo directly said that he was a guy to everyone who was interested. But anyway, I don't see a trans issue in this show so far. A scene at the beginning of the episode suggests that Makoto has issues with gender presentation rather than his gender. But if you just speculate about whether he is “subconsciously” trans, then you can do this endlessly. @traed Nao is canonically trans woman. She was very hurt when others saw her as a biological man and we were repeatedly given great emphasis on the fact that she was the “aunt” of the main character, and not her uncle. |
RobertBobertJul 13, 5:17 AM
Jul 13, 5:33 AM
#72
Jul 13, 7:42 AM
#73
Jul 13, 10:40 AM
#74
@RobertBobert This just tells me that people need to be spoon-fed for a character to be trans, and are incapable of deciphering context or reading through the lines. Don't get me wrong, my main argument here has only ever been "it's possible he could be trans" while others somehow seem confident to rule out the possibility entirely, which is utter nonsense to me. Yes, we all know what an "otokonoko" is but I'm operating under the assumption that authors would tend to be more subtle or ambiguous about these topics, so that alone doesn't convince me. I also think in general that unless there's some amount of serious consideration on gender identity, then the gender a character says they are doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, because gender in anime just defaults to biological sex 99.9% of the time. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 13, 10:47 AM
#75
Reply to LostSpectre
@RobertBobert
This just tells me that people need to be spoon-fed for a character to be trans, and are incapable of deciphering context or reading through the lines. Don't get me wrong, my main argument here has only ever been "it's possible he could be trans" while others somehow seem confident to rule out the possibility entirely, which is utter nonsense to me. Yes, we all know what an "otokonoko" is but I'm operating under the assumption that authors would tend to be more subtle or ambiguous about these topics, so that alone doesn't convince me. I also think in general that unless there's some amount of serious consideration on gender identity, then the gender a character says they are doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, because gender in anime just defaults to biological sex 99.9% of the time.
This just tells me that people need to be spoon-fed for a character to be trans, and are incapable of deciphering context or reading through the lines. Don't get me wrong, my main argument here has only ever been "it's possible he could be trans" while others somehow seem confident to rule out the possibility entirely, which is utter nonsense to me. Yes, we all know what an "otokonoko" is but I'm operating under the assumption that authors would tend to be more subtle or ambiguous about these topics, so that alone doesn't convince me. I also think in general that unless there's some amount of serious consideration on gender identity, then the gender a character says they are doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, because gender in anime just defaults to biological sex 99.9% of the time.
@LostSpectre Well, I don’t argue that the story may have some kind of trans symbolism or metaphors. But I also don't think the story will go too deep, since the author said in interviews that he intentionally gave Makoto a non-girly personality to emphasize that this is a story about gender presentation, not identity. If it turns out that Makoto is trans, it will actually reinforce the prejudice that girly things are for girls. I'm not entirely sure why you seem to understand my reference to otokonoko as "definitely not trans." On the contrary, I wanted to emphasize that this is a general term that does not depend on gender or sexuality. Many seinen trans girl manga are positioned as works about otokonoko. For example, Primus (or Prinus?) girl and Okaeri Alice. |
Jul 13, 11:07 AM
#76
Reply to RobertBobert
@LostSpectre Well, I don’t argue that the story may have some kind of trans symbolism or metaphors. But I also don't think the story will go too deep, since the author said in interviews that he intentionally gave Makoto a non-girly personality to emphasize that this is a story about gender presentation, not identity. If it turns out that Makoto is trans, it will actually reinforce the prejudice that girly things are for girls.
I'm not entirely sure why you seem to understand my reference to otokonoko as "definitely not trans." On the contrary, I wanted to emphasize that this is a general term that does not depend on gender or sexuality. Many seinen trans girl manga are positioned as works about otokonoko. For example, Primus (or Prinus?) girl and Okaeri Alice.
I'm not entirely sure why you seem to understand my reference to otokonoko as "definitely not trans." On the contrary, I wanted to emphasize that this is a general term that does not depend on gender or sexuality. Many seinen trans girl manga are positioned as works about otokonoko. For example, Primus (or Prinus?) girl and Okaeri Alice.
@RobertBobert You're right. I read the comment wrong, so the bluntness of "boy playing a female role" made me glance over the part about being irrespective of gender, sexuality, etc. I wasn't aware of any comments made by the author, but if that's true, it pretty much answers that question. I would probably be a bit disappointed if he isn't trans because the framework is definitely there, and if there isn't any sensitivity or nuance to explain why he seems to prefer living as a girl, and yet doesn't align with a female gender identity, would feel rather cheap. I don't quite agree that it would reinforce prejudice, because if someone born male can be socially accepted as a female, then there shouldn't be any reason to uphold rigid gender stereotypes, but I do see where you're coming from. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 13, 1:06 PM
#77
I feel that there are some unresolved mom issues there.. I guess this will be the main focus here? Getting his mom to accept him like that? Since I doubt the plot will eventually reach a point where he wants to be a normal guy |
Jul 13, 5:53 PM
#78
Jul 13, 6:26 PM
#79
It's a fun and wholesome episode, but shit when his mother found out. |
Jul 13, 10:34 PM
#80
Bruh just tell her it’s Aoi’s and she’ll even be happy |
Jul 13, 11:09 PM
#81
"all the cute things in this world are meant for girls" gahh as a feminine guy that relates to makoto way too much i h8 how true this is ;_; but i really enjoyed the ep! theres not much i can say w/out spoiling the manga but yeah, their shopping trip was rly cute ^w^ |
Jul 14, 1:15 AM
#82
Reply to LostSpectre
@RobertBobert You're right. I read the comment wrong, so the bluntness of "boy playing a female role" made me glance over the part about being irrespective of gender, sexuality, etc. I wasn't aware of any comments made by the author, but if that's true, it pretty much answers that question. I would probably be a bit disappointed if he isn't trans because the framework is definitely there, and if there isn't any sensitivity or nuance to explain why he seems to prefer living as a girl, and yet doesn't align with a female gender identity, would feel rather cheap. I don't quite agree that it would reinforce prejudice, because if someone born male can be socially accepted as a female, then there shouldn't be any reason to uphold rigid gender stereotypes, but I do see where you're coming from.
@LostSpectre I just wanted to say that if he turned out to be a trans girl, people might say "see, that explains it all! He likes girly things because he's a girl inside" etc. This actually happens with many titles that want to make a message about the toxicity of dogmatic gender norms. For example, Rose of Versailles was a fantasy about a woman taking a "man's place," but people tried to take it as a story about a trans man. But I’ve gone too far from the topic, you can read the article about the manga on the English Wikipedia and find and read the original interviews there. |
Jul 14, 6:51 AM
#83
there are too many kawaii things in this episode, I can't help it, it's too cute. Makoto finally wearing women's clothes while walking down the street, and Ryuuji trying to stay straight is hilarious lol. damn cliffhanger, I hope Makoto can think and say that the handkerchief belongs to Saki. ![]() |
Jul 14, 8:43 AM
#84
I got a sugar rush from this episode because it was sweet and full of kawaii in a good way. I'm glad I'll get to follow along this anime weekly during my summer! |
Jul 14, 11:56 AM
#85
Reply to RobertBobert
@LostSpectre I just wanted to say that if he turned out to be a trans girl, people might say "see, that explains it all! He likes girly things because he's a girl inside" etc. This actually happens with many titles that want to make a message about the toxicity of dogmatic gender norms. For example, Rose of Versailles was a fantasy about a woman taking a "man's place," but people tried to take it as a story about a trans man. But I’ve gone too far from the topic, you can read the article about the manga on the English Wikipedia and find and read the original interviews there.
@RobertBobert No sane progressive would take such a backwards stance on gender roles, while there could very well be a correlation that he gravitates to the feminine and seems to feel more comfortable expressing himself as that gender, boiling it down to "guy likes cute things, must be a girl" is only a stance that extreme/desperate people for trans rep. might twist things into. I'm 100% fine with him not being trans, so long as the proper nuance is paid to differentiate the two, because I can only roll my eyes when people oversimplify it to "boy likes cute things". You know, a lot of the problems arise with some of these "trap" characters when they're written in a way that could be identical to someone transgender, but then there's pretty much zero nuance or attention to establishing the difference between gender presentation and identity or "I'm actually a guy" doesn't feel like a statement about identity at all, and just seems to default to gender being based on biological sex. Of course, the whole "trap" thing is mostly a silly trope in general, and when it's used in more of a "backwards" sense, it works, the more "legitimate" you make these characters, the more complicated things get. |
LostSpectreJul 14, 12:41 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 14, 12:05 PM
#86
both the story and the animation feel like a slideshow. |
Jul 14, 1:26 PM
#87
Well, this hits extremely close to home, not sure I can really handle continuing it due to... emotional damage lmao. XD Might still try and continue it though, we will see. It's crazy how similar this is to my own experience with my family. Always scared that when I got home I would be scolded by my Mom (happened too many times to count). Wasn't easy either causes she would always go into my room and actually look through shit trying to find it. Barely even talk to her anymore, and she has only gotten worse as she has gotten older and more religious. I see some people acting like Makoto could just say the cloth isn't theirs. When you have family like that... it just doesn't work. They don't believe you even if it's true. They already got it their head there's something wrong with you and they should do everything in their power to correct it. And they often act like a victim about it if you talk back. Now as for whether or not Makoto is trans, I honestly don't know because even I am no longer sure if I am or not. There was a point where I was so sure of it, but as I became older ... I realized the problem isn't necessarily my body... it's more my perception of what it means to be a girl vs a boy or what is cute or isn't. I like cute things (partly why I like anime so much cause I think the art style is cute), literally to the same degree that Makoto does. Practically to an obsessive degree which also means I want to be cute. Sadly... I don't look cute and it bothers me, but is me being bothered that I don't look cute, mean I am trans? I am not so sure anymore. Cause if I looked cute but was still a boy... that would be enough for me. As long as I can wear cute clothing and look cute that would make me happy. It's just not very easy to accomplish as a male. Anyway, I mainly wrote this as I figured... my perspective would probably be interesting given my experience. Edit: On a side note, the chibi and comedy stuff actually makes it a lot easier to watch. The topic is honestly extremely serious, and I feel the light hearted parts are necessary. If it wasn't for that I would probably have already dropped it. |
MarchinBunnyJul 14, 1:33 PM
I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jul 14, 6:14 PM
#88
Aoi really carries this anime for me. She got so tan, its hilarious. Just say the handkerchief is Aoi's! She gave it to him as a gift, super simple. Its sad that he has to hide his true self because of his mom's disapproval. I mean she didn't let Makoto cook because its a girl's job. |
Jul 14, 9:23 PM
#89
I love Saki's whale plushies lol this was a really cute episode, but wow those parts when the mom was on-screen just... Ugh. And unfortunately he's been caught, so it looks like Ryuji and Saki are going to have to help him out in some way. Unless maybe he say's it belongs to Saki? She might believe that, but this mom is going to be a massive problem, and I already hate her |
Jul 14, 9:29 PM
#90
Reply to TheSuave
I don’t know whether I should feel sorry for the guy Makoto blew off or relieved for him. I guess he would’ve had his heart broken either way. And I think Makoto's going to play this off somehow. Lie and say the hanky was for Saki or something. And if not I only hope she's understanding.
@TheSuave That's exactly what I was thinking. He could just say it was Saki's, I think she'd buy that. She already wants Saki to be with him @hich4n_ Ryuiji is one lucky bastard 😤 And yep, she's really about to throw a tantrum over the handkerchief, unless of course, Makoto and can convince her that it's Saki's... But yeah wow his situation kinda sucks |
Jul 15, 12:22 AM
#91
Reply to LostSpectre
@RobertBobert No sane progressive would take such a backwards stance on gender roles, while there could very well be a correlation that he gravitates to the feminine and seems to feel more comfortable expressing himself as that gender, boiling it down to "guy likes cute things, must be a girl" is only a stance that extreme/desperate people for trans rep. might twist things into. I'm 100% fine with him not being trans, so long as the proper nuance is paid to differentiate the two, because I can only roll my eyes when people oversimplify it to "boy likes cute things".
You know, a lot of the problems arise with some of these "trap" characters when they're written in a way that could be identical to someone transgender, but then there's pretty much zero nuance or attention to establishing the difference between gender presentation and identity or "I'm actually a guy" doesn't feel like a statement about identity at all, and just seems to default to gender being based on biological sex. Of course, the whole "trap" thing is mostly a silly trope in general, and when it's used in more of a "backwards" sense, it works, the more "legitimate" you make these characters, the more complicated things get.
You know, a lot of the problems arise with some of these "trap" characters when they're written in a way that could be identical to someone transgender, but then there's pretty much zero nuance or attention to establishing the difference between gender presentation and identity or "I'm actually a guy" doesn't feel like a statement about identity at all, and just seems to default to gender being based on biological sex. Of course, the whole "trap" thing is mostly a silly trope in general, and when it's used in more of a "backwards" sense, it works, the more "legitimate" you make these characters, the more complicated things get.
@LostSpectre The point is that trying to link it to transsexuality will simply re-fit it into gender stereotypes. Like "Does Makoto like dresses even though he's a guy? Well, that's to be expected since he's a girl at heart," etc. Implying that his girly interests are caused by his subconscious girly identity. Thus, we fall into the well-known Western logical fallacy "John can wear dresses because men should not be limited by gender norms. But if John wants to wear dresses, then he must be a trans woman." |
Jul 15, 6:19 AM
#92
This is certainly a favorite anime of the season for me. Makoto is incredibly trans-coded (or genderqueer, though with how uncomfortable he is "acting" like a boy, I'm leaning more towards a trans interpretation) - I haven't read the source material, but it would be nice to add another anime to my list of having canon trans characters. Stars Align is my favorite anime for its representation of gender identity - bonus points for having canon nonbinary AND trans rep! Skip and Loafer is a close second. While I'm not sure if this anime will go that route, it is nice to see this topic popping up more within the anime industry. I hope we see more of Ryuji's path as he comes to terms with his feelings for Makoto. Internalized homophobia is always tough to see in a series, but as Makoto grows more comfortable being their authentic self, I hope we see Ryuji accepting his feelings, as well. Aoi-san seems like the perfect friend to help them accept who they are! Side note: I avoided commenting on episode 1 because the first forum post was heavily transphobic and I did NOT want to go down that rabbit hole...hoping those who have a problem with a topic that is the main premise of the anime drop it instead of spewing hate (if you don't like/agree with something, no one is forcing you to watch it - though it would be beneficial to open minds a bit more, especially when it shows a common experience for those within the queer community and the societal pressures we face). |
GoinGhostieJul 15, 6:24 AM
☆ Watch Stars Align for soft tennis with a side of (canon!) queer rep, found family, and angst! ☆ |
Jul 15, 7:33 AM
#93
Fun episode, but I could see the cliff hanger coming from a mile away. |
Jul 15, 1:14 PM
#94
Reply to RobertBobert
@LostSpectre The point is that trying to link it to transsexuality will simply re-fit it into gender stereotypes. Like "Does Makoto like dresses even though he's a guy? Well, that's to be expected since he's a girl at heart," etc. Implying that his girly interests are caused by his subconscious girly identity. Thus, we fall into the well-known Western logical fallacy "John can wear dresses because men should not be limited by gender norms. But if John wants to wear dresses, then he must be a trans woman."
@RobertBobert I already said that's a stance extreme/desperate people might take, but they're absolutely not the majority. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 15, 1:23 PM
#95
Reply to LostSpectre
@RobertBobert I already said that's a stance extreme/desperate people might take, but they're absolutely not the majority.
@LostSpectre This is actually a pretty common thing. Even the most common tomboy characters like Ran from Bandori get this treatment. Such people are simply a mirror of the bigots who deny transsexuality or believe that gender norms are part of biology. The situation is also complicated by the fact that Japanese culture has much richer and older traditions of travesty than the West, so the attitude towards this is somewhat more complicated than in the West. |
Jul 15, 1:36 PM
#96
este es el primer anime inclusivo que veo, y debo decir que no está nada mal, me gusta le protagoniste, y sus compañeres, es una serie que me voy a terminar sin duda. |
Jul 15, 1:40 PM
#97
Reply to RobertBobert
@LostSpectre This is actually a pretty common thing. Even the most common tomboy characters like Ran from Bandori get this treatment. Such people are simply a mirror of the bigots who deny transsexuality or believe that gender norms are part of biology. The situation is also complicated by the fact that Japanese culture has much richer and older traditions of travesty than the West, so the attitude towards this is somewhat more complicated than in the West.
@RobertBobert I'm not talking about anime, I'm saying that such rigid stances in regard to gender conformity are absolutely not the majority opinion of liberals/progressives, I'm sure that's much more likely in the trans community, but that's a complete fucking minefield because transphobia is rampant. Personally, I'm not changing my beliefs or actions based on what the reaction of a minority group (you disagree with) might be, I think you've already lost if it has come to that. Obviously, if Makoto was trans they would have to dig deeper on issues related to identity, dysphoria, etc. because feeling good wearing cute/feminine clothing isn't compelling on its own. test |
LostSpectreJul 15, 4:12 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 15, 2:59 PM
#98
Reply to LostSpectre
@RobertBobert I'm not talking about anime, I'm saying that such rigid stances in regard to gender conformity are absolutely not the majority opinion of liberals/progressives, I'm sure that's much more likely in the trans community, but that's a complete fucking minefield because transphobia is rampant. Personally, I'm not changing my beliefs or actions based on what the reaction of a minority group (you disagree with) might be, I think you've already lost if it has come to that. Obviously, if Makoto was trans they would have to dig deeper on issues related to identity, dysphoria, etc. because feeling good wearing cute/feminine clothing isn't compelling on its own.
test
test
@LostSpectre It's not so much about the people who DIRECTLY talk about it, but about the idea that arises from it. Androgynous appearance and interestingness can indeed be a manifestation of someone’s transsexuality. But in shows like this, it will simply bring us back to the idea that Makoto is not a boy who is cramped by masculine gender norms, but just a girl who wants feminine things. That is, instead of a man struggling with male gender norms, we end up with a woman who wants to live up to her gender norms. This is a conceptual question. You can also look at this from the other side. Makoto's friend is a (potentially) gay man who has a crush on him and is conflicted about his homosexuality. Now imagine if someone starts to prove to you that he is straight and simply fell in love with Makoto because of his feminine appearance. Which happens, but not in the case of this show (he fell in love with him even before dressing up and was turned on by his male body). Will this be erasing the character's homosexuality? |
Jul 15, 3:59 PM
#99
Reply to RobertBobert
@LostSpectre It's not so much about the people who DIRECTLY talk about it, but about the idea that arises from it. Androgynous appearance and interestingness can indeed be a manifestation of someone’s transsexuality. But in shows like this, it will simply bring us back to the idea that Makoto is not a boy who is cramped by masculine gender norms, but just a girl who wants feminine things. That is, instead of a man struggling with male gender norms, we end up with a woman who wants to live up to her gender norms. This is a conceptual question.
You can also look at this from the other side. Makoto's friend is a (potentially) gay man who has a crush on him and is conflicted about his homosexuality. Now imagine if someone starts to prove to you that he is straight and simply fell in love with Makoto because of his feminine appearance. Which happens, but not in the case of this show (he fell in love with him even before dressing up and was turned on by his male body). Will this be erasing the character's homosexuality?
You can also look at this from the other side. Makoto's friend is a (potentially) gay man who has a crush on him and is conflicted about his homosexuality. Now imagine if someone starts to prove to you that he is straight and simply fell in love with Makoto because of his feminine appearance. Which happens, but not in the case of this show (he fell in love with him even before dressing up and was turned on by his male body). Will this be erasing the character's homosexuality?
@RobertBobert Your opinions/POV all seem to be reactionary towards an extremist minority, I don't subscribe to that logic. Anyway, that seems like a good stopping point. Now, I already knew about that spoiler because people can't seem to keep that shit to themselves, but I don't know why you would just put that right out in the open without any spoiler tag, you need to fix that. Good talk. |
LostSpectreJul 15, 4:19 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jul 15, 4:42 PM
#100
Reply to LostSpectre
@RobertBobert Your opinions/POV all seem to be reactionary towards an extremist minority, I don't subscribe to that logic. Anyway, that seems like a good stopping point. Now, I already knew about that spoiler because people can't seem to keep that shit to themselves, but I don't know why you would just put that right out in the open without any spoiler tag, you need to fix that.
Good talk.
Good talk.
@LostSpectre Spoiler? I'm talking about what was revealed as of the second episode. After all, we were shown a flashback of their first meeting and their trip to the pool, right? I haven't read the original manga and don't know if this was confirmed or directly discussed. That's why I wrote "potentially". It's not about the minority or majority, I just think it's not the right type of story. Of course, no one forbids you to read things as you want, and it is possible that something will change in the future. Like I said, I haven't read the manga. But at the moment I see things like this. |
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