Senpai wa Otokonoko Episode 2 Discussion

@Marinate1016 I think it's certainly leaning towards him being trans, but whether or not that subject gets tackled in any "legitimate" sense remains to be seen, but the series is clearly trans coded, if nothing else. Now, don't get confused that he refers to himself as a boy, because he's a male, that's just how society views him by default. We don't know how he truly wishes to identify, whether or not he's aware of what it means to be "trans" or whether that's even a real concept in the story itself. I would be surprised if the series didn't keep thinks more ambiguous, so to speak.

This is honestly one of the best things airing this season. Saki, Makoto and Ryuuji have such a good dynamic together. This episode I feel like we really got to see what Makoto and Saki's dynamic will be like through the show. Ryuuji is clearly a case of he don't realise he's in love and eventually will be snapped out of it.

Honestly the situation with the handkerchief that Makoto's mother found can easily just be blown over by saying it was Saki's so if he's mother does start suspecting things then that's kinda stupid imo. But hey I know she's gonna find out eventually.

honestly I have tons of respect for Makoto, trying to be his true self must be really hard for him and I have nothing but respect for him.

and to anyone who thinks what Makoto is doing is weird just drop the show now.

@LostSpectre I thought Otokonoko was different from a trans person?

I knew the t word brainrot would be there already...guys, let femboys be femboys pls...

@traed

I don't agree with that interpretation. He's a male wearing clothing more traditionally associated with females, he would still be "crossdressing" whether he was trans or not. There are many signs that point to him being more comfortable existing as a girl and being seen that way by society, rather than simply being a boy who enjoys girly things. Bringing up identity is misleading, because it's not a question of whether he currently identifies as a girl or trans (he doesn't) but whether or not he is trans internally, experiences gender dysphoria, and would be happier to live/identify as the female gender. You have to remember this is (conservative) Japan we're talking about, so I expect a certain amount of ambiguity when it comes to this subject matter, but that certainly doesn't rule out a trans reading of the character.

@LostSpectre
Crossdressing doesn't necessarily suggest some of the things he is doing, it goes beyond that since the wig and also trying on makeup. I do get why he could be interpreted as trans so im not ruling it out but it's not like the notion is alien to Japan to the point they would not portray it as identifying as a girl so why identify as a boy even in his own head? Which I have seen before in the manga Bokura no Hentai three characters that crossdress but only one is a trans girl who identifies as a girl not a boy. So is it how Japanese trans people think a certain way more than Western ones would or is it a general ignorance or just something else? It's not like I'm trying to jump through hoops, it's more I'm trying not to make too many assumptions based on a Western influenced mindset. I'm not saying a trans person would not relate with Makoto.

@traed While trans people aren't a completely foreign concept to Japan, they basically don't exist in anime, and gender is most often determined solely by biological sex. I don't think it necessarily means anything that he "identifies" as a boy because that's simply the label society places on him by default, as a biological male. We would have to have context on what he actually knows about trans identity or intersecting subjects, in order to be able to make any sort of definitive statements, and I just wouldn't expect the author to be that direct about such matters. Even if he felt trans the reality of being able to transition is nothing more than a dream at this point in the story, due to the constraints his mother places on him.

Anyway, I'm not saying he is trans, just that being a "crossdresser" doesn't in any way rule the possibility out.

@RobertBobert

This just tells me that people need to be spoon-fed for a character to be trans, and are incapable of deciphering context or reading through the lines. Don't get me wrong, my main argument here has only ever been "it's possible he could be trans" while others somehow seem confident to rule out the possibility entirely, which is utter nonsense to me. Yes, we all know what an "otokonoko" is but I'm operating under the assumption that authors would tend to be more subtle or ambiguous about these topics, so that alone doesn't convince me. I also think in general that unless there's some amount of serious consideration on gender identity, then the gender a character says they are doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, because gender in anime just defaults to biological sex 99.9% of the time.

@LostSpectre Well, I don’t argue that the story may have some kind of trans symbolism or metaphors. But I also don't think the story will go too deep, since the author said in interviews that he intentionally gave Makoto a non-girly personality to emphasize that this is a story about gender presentation, not identity. If it turns out that Makoto is trans, it will actually reinforce the prejudice that girly things are for girls.

I'm not entirely sure why you seem to understand my reference to otokonoko as "definitely not trans." On the contrary, I wanted to emphasize that this is a general term that does not depend on gender or sexuality. Many seinen trans girl manga are positioned as works about otokonoko. For example, Primus (or Prinus?) girl and Okaeri Alice.

@RobertBobert You're right. I read the comment wrong, so the bluntness of "boy playing a female role" made me glance over the part about being irrespective of gender, sexuality, etc. I wasn't aware of any comments made by the author, but if that's true, it pretty much answers that question. I would probably be a bit disappointed if he isn't trans because the framework is definitely there, and if there isn't any sensitivity or nuance to explain why he seems to prefer living as a girl, and yet doesn't align with a female gender identity, would feel rather cheap. I don't quite agree that it would reinforce prejudice, because if someone born male can be socially accepted as a female, then there shouldn't be any reason to uphold rigid gender stereotypes, but I do see where you're coming from.

@LostSpectre I just wanted to say that if he turned out to be a trans girl, people might say "see, that explains it all! He likes girly things because he's a girl inside" etc. This actually happens with many titles that want to make a message about the toxicity of dogmatic gender norms. For example, Rose of Versailles was a fantasy about a woman taking a "man's place," but people tried to take it as a story about a trans man. But I’ve gone too far from the topic, you can read the article about the manga on the English Wikipedia and find and read the original interviews there.

I don’t know whether I should feel sorry for the guy Makoto blew off or relieved for him. I guess he would’ve had his heart broken either way. And I think Makoto's going to play this off somehow. Lie and say the hanky was for Saki or something. And if not I only hope she's understanding.

@RobertBobert No sane progressive would take such a backwards stance on gender roles, while there could very well be a correlation that he gravitates to the feminine and seems to feel more comfortable expressing himself as that gender, boiling it down to "guy likes cute things, must be a girl" is only a stance that extreme/desperate people for trans rep. might twist things into. I'm 100% fine with him not being trans, so long as the proper nuance is paid to differentiate the two, because I can only roll my eyes when people oversimplify it to "boy likes cute things".

You know, a lot of the problems arise with some of these "trap" characters when they're written in a way that could be identical to someone transgender, but then there's pretty much zero nuance or attention to establishing the difference between gender presentation and identity or "I'm actually a guy" doesn't feel like a statement about identity at all, and just seems to default to gender being based on biological sex. Of course, the whole "trap" thing is mostly a silly trope in general, and when it's used in more of a "backwards" sense, it works, the more "legitimate" you make these characters, the more complicated things get.

@LostSpectre The point is that trying to link it to transsexuality will simply re-fit it into gender stereotypes. Like "Does Makoto like dresses even though he's a guy? Well, that's to be expected since he's a girl at heart," etc. Implying that his girly interests are caused by his subconscious girly identity. Thus, we fall into the well-known Western logical fallacy "John can wear dresses because men should not be limited by gender norms. But if John wants to wear dresses, then he must be a trans woman."

@RobertBobert I already said that's a stance extreme/desperate people might take, but they're absolutely not the majority.

@LostSpectre This is actually a pretty common thing. Even the most common tomboy characters like Ran from Bandori get this treatment. Such people are simply a mirror of the bigots who deny transsexuality or believe that gender norms are part of biology. The situation is also complicated by the fact that Japanese culture has much richer and older traditions of travesty than the West, so the attitude towards this is somewhat more complicated than in the West.

@RobertBobert I'm not talking about anime, I'm saying that such rigid stances in regard to gender conformity are absolutely not the majority opinion of liberals/progressives, I'm sure that's much more likely in the trans community, but that's a complete fucking minefield because transphobia is rampant. Personally, I'm not changing my beliefs or actions based on what the reaction of a minority group (you disagree with) might be, I think you've already lost if it has come to that. Obviously, if Makoto was trans they would have to dig deeper on issues related to identity, dysphoria, etc. because feeling good wearing cute/feminine clothing isn't compelling on its own.

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@LostSpectre It's not so much about the people who DIRECTLY talk about it, but about the idea that arises from it. Androgynous appearance and interestingness can indeed be a manifestation of someone’s transsexuality. But in shows like this, it will simply bring us back to the idea that Makoto is not a boy who is cramped by masculine gender norms, but just a girl who wants feminine things. That is, instead of a man struggling with male gender norms, we end up with a woman who wants to live up to her gender norms. This is a conceptual question.

You can also look at this from the other side. Makoto's friend is a (potentially) gay man who has a crush on him and is conflicted about his homosexuality. Now imagine if someone starts to prove to you that he is straight and simply fell in love with Makoto because of his feminine appearance. Which happens, but not in the case of this show (he fell in love with him even before dressing up and was turned on by his male body). Will this be erasing the character's homosexuality?

@RobertBobert Your opinions/POV all seem to be reactionary towards an extremist minority, I don't subscribe to that logic. Anyway, that seems like a good stopping point. Now, I already knew about that spoiler because people can't seem to keep that shit to themselves, but I don't know why you would just put that right out in the open without any spoiler tag, you need to fix that.

Good talk.