| Via Simon Jones (NSFW)– Japanese Internet service providers have announced that from now on, they will immediately and permanently terminate Internet service for users who download pirated materials. Jones points out the concerns with user privacy, which is not addressed in the article at all. The article does note that the plan, in which users are warned via e-mail and then cut off from the ‘net if they don’t stop downloading, is similar to one being set up in France by President Sarkozy. Source: Giapet.net What do you think about this? |
Flame_HazeMar 15, 2008 11:07 AM
| Less lag on japanese MMO's! WOO~! Your source says "I'm Sorry, I am really embarrased, I dont know how to say this, I actually hate to say this. But no other go, I must tell you and tell you now itself..that.. YOU are looking for something that ISN'T HERE. I swear. It was never here" |
KionnikoMar 15, 2008 11:07 AM
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| I think, like all these types of attacks, the people it's going to hurt are the less-involved folks who will simply take their punishment. It's like the RIAA suing people for music piracy here in the states. The people who are being hurt are the little kids and grandparents who have a small number of songs on their computer and get absolutely run-over by these corporations. Meanwhile, the tech-savvy leaders of these piracy movements are always one-step ahead and THOSE people very rarely if ever have to face the consequences of the blowback their actions solicit. The fight against piracy on the Internet has unjustifiably destroyed near-countless lives at this point, while the people they really want to nail haven't felt the flames at all. It's a sad situation, and I wish someone would stop perpetuating all these legal actions against the little guys |
| Is this really gonna fly? I don't see it happening. The pirates will win sooner or later. Besides, they should be going after bootleggers who profit off pirated materials, not people who share it for free. |
Meta-Ridley said: Is this really gonna fly? I don't see it happening. The pirates will win sooner or later. Besides, they should be going after bootleggers who profit off pirated materials, not people who share it for free. They do go after bootlegers since thats illegal as well... You must not realize that them cutting off your internet permanently is a major threat for piraters... Nothing can totally get rid of piracy, but this will definitely decrease it. I don't really want them to do this since it could hurt getting anime raws and manga scans from Japan. |
Casual_Toast said: I think, like all these types of attacks, the people it's going to hurt are the less-involved folks who will simply take their punishment. It's like the RIAA suing people for music piracy here in the states. The people who are being hurt are the little kids and grandparents who have a small number of songs on their computer and get absolutely run-over by these corporations. Meanwhile, the tech-savvy leaders of these piracy movements are always one-step ahead and THOSE people very rarely if ever have to face the consequences of the blowback their actions solicit. The fight against piracy on the Internet has unjustifiably destroyed near-countless lives at this point, while the people they really want to nail haven't felt the flames at all. It's a sad situation, and I wish someone would stop perpetuating all these legal actions against the little guys I agree with this guy, also, in b4 move |
 |
Flame_Haze said: Meta-Ridley said: Is this really gonna fly? I don't see it happening. The pirates will win sooner or later. Besides, they should be going after bootleggers who profit off pirated materials, not people who share it for free. They do go after bootlegers since thats illegal as well... You must not realize that them cutting off your internet permanently is a major threat for piraters... Nothing can totally get rid of piracy, but this will definitely decrease it. I don't really want them to do this since it could hurt getting anime raws and manga scans from Japan. What I meant is that it hurts the little guy as well. I don't think it's right for simple freeloaders (such as myself) to be lumped together with bootleggers. Downloading something for free and distributing it for free is completely different from downloading something then selling it. The reason people download is because it's easy and free. Sometimes people can't afford what they want, maybe it's not available anywhere else, or maybe they want to check something out before they buy it. Simply cutting off all downloaders from the internet or shutting down all torrent sites is backwards logic in this day and age. Bootlegging laws should be tougher, and free downloads should be fully legalized. |
| What I meant is that it hurts the little guy as well. I don't think it's right for simple freeloaders (such as myself) to be lumped together with bootleggers. Downloading something for free and distributing it for free is completely different from downloading something then selling it. The reason people download is because it's easy and free. Sometimes people can't afford what they want, maybe it's not available anywhere else, or maybe they want to check something out before they buy it. Simply cutting off all downloaders from the internet or shutting down all torrent sites is backwards logic in this day and age. Bootlegging laws should be tougher, and free downloads should be fully legalized. First of all any software product or title you want can be gotten online it does not need to be in local stores. I mean buy online and have it shipped to you or pay for an electronic copy of the product, game, dvd/episode etc. If they can't afford what they want that doesn't mean they need to have it anyways. And there are before you buy products that get sent to you electronically. o.o are you saying any product that is being online distributed should be made legal? lol That doesn't help the economy or the makers of the product especially if they can afford to buy the product but choose not to. |
o.o are you saying any product that is being online distributed should be made legal? lol That doesn't help the economy or the makers of the product especially if they can afford to buy the product but choose not to. Not just any product, but as far things such as music and video files go, yes. I realize that if it's not set up properly it could cripple businesses, but it could work if the manufacturers made their products available for free download on their websites with an option to buy them (e.g. Download link next to all purchase links). People who wish to support the company, as well as people who are simply guilt-tripped into choosing not to download, would buy the product, and those who can't afford it or don't want to pay would choose the free download. Trust me, the companies would still get the support they deserve. Apart from ordinary anime and manga, anime companies already make enough money from various forms of merchandise, "limited edition" box sets, and other things that can't be obtained for free. It could take many years to properly embrace free downloads, but it makes more sense than going the opposite route and cracking down on people who just want anime on their computer or something. Maybe they should consider lowering the prices on anime DVDs and such. They are way too overpriced. They should make their products easier to obtain in terms of availability and price, then maybe people would be more inclined to buy them. Someday I plan to buy all the anime and manga I'm interested in, since I want to build up a collection. The thing is, I just don't have the money, and until then, I download. |
| Excuse me without a doubt pirating is murdering the anime dvd industry. Geneon bit the dust recently in the U.S. and who knows what other companies will bite the dust because they refuse to support the companies. |
Flame_Haze said: Excuse me without a doubt pirating is murdering the anime dvd industry. Geneon bit the dust recently in the U.S. and who knows what other companies will bite the dust because they refuse to support the companies. The US market is entirely different to the Japanese one. Most money is made from merchandise, not DVD sales in Japan. Very little of the merch ever makes it outside of Japan, so licensing companies rely solely on DVD sales, which may not work out for them, especially with the poor pricing models used in many cases. And you can hardly sound so vehement about it when you're pirating by watching most stuff on your list. |
| I buy dvds though :) Geneon didn't have a bad pricing model so that point does not work for this company. Also I'd actually be buying Shana 2 DVDS if you pirates would of actually bought some dvds from Geneon. <_< |
| It is the job of a buisness to take my money from me, not for me to donate it to them; the anime buisness model is shit at doing this. |
    Sam is my sweet peach |
| lol u guys just want your animu free whether it's ethical or not. trying desperately to justif pirating just makes you look pathetic. It's one thing to blame the DVD industry for not adapting to a changing environment and holding to a stubborn business model. It's another thing to believe that all (or even a quarter of) pirates are like you and have an intention to buy the legal product after they download it. The way some of these posts are being made, you'd think that watching anime on your computer is a natural born right granted to all human beings instead of a product that needs to be paid for one way or another. EDIT: TWE got to it before me. sums this whole topic up pretty well. |
Flame_Haze said: I buy dvds though :) Geneon didn't have a bad pricing model so that point does not work for this company. Also I'd actually be buying Shana 2 DVDS if you pirates would of actually bought some dvds from Geneon. <_< "You" pirates? Excuse me? I own more DVDs than you have series on your list. I've spent many thousands of dollars on my collection and I'll continue to give to the industry that I love, however that doesn't stop me from downloading regardless of how 'wrong' it is. It also doesn't stop me from complaining about poor pricing used in many cases. I still think the industry outside of Japan would do much better to scrap dubbing entirely and take a 'fansub' approach just using their high quality source, and sell the DVDs < $10 a piece instead of the average ~$30 price tag.They would undoubtedly end up selling more than 3x more units, and not having spent on dubbing, it'd result in more overall profit. Not to mention faster releases. Maybe keep high priced/slow dub releases for the plebs who like it, but the majority of the community who put their cash down don't watch the dubs anyway. Waste of time, effort and money. |
| It took less than 15 posts for this thread to become another boring fight. Yawn. This DOES suck, though. BTW, I take it no one around here has ever heard of the word "hypocrite"? *counts the seconds until random people start justifying their stances on their high horses* |
| Jumping in Headfirst - I hear reading it causes immortality. Warning. Reading may not actually cause immortality. |
"You" pirates? Excuse me? I own more DVDs than you have series on your list. I've spent many thousands of dollars on my collection and I'll continue to give to the industry that I love, however that doesn't stop me from downloading regardless of how 'wrong' it is. It also doesn't stop me from complaining about poor pricing used in many cases. I still think the industry outside of Japan would do much better to scrap dubbing entirely and take a 'fansub' approach just using their high quality source, and sell the DVDs < $10 a piece instead of the average ~$30 price tag.They would undoubtedly end up selling more than 3x more units, and not having spent on dubbing, it'd result in more overall profit. Not to mention faster releases. Maybe keep high priced/slow dub releases for the plebs who like it, but the majority of the community who put their cash down don't watch the dubs anyway. Waste of time, effort and money. I'm sorry to say that getting faster releases and just subbing is costing alot more. Look at Bandai Visual. Quote from ANN: "The first six English-subbed Bandai Visual DVDs of this series will start shipping on May 13 for US$39.99 with two episodes each; the seventh and last DVD will have one episode for US$29.99." I'm sorry that kind of price for so little is a huge joke and proves that getting licenses faster and releasing them quicker does not lower the price. |
I still think the industry outside of Japan would do much better to scrap dubbing entirely and take a 'fansub' approach just using their high quality source, and sell the DVDs < $10 a piece instead of the average ~$30 price tag.They would undoubtedly end up selling more than 3x more units, and not having spent on dubbing, it'd result in more overall profit. Not to mention faster releases. Maybe keep high priced/slow dub releases for the plebs who like it, but the majority of the community who put their cash down don't watch the dubs anyway. Waste of time, effort and money. Thank you. I agree with this completely. Selling subbed anime over here would work out alot better than wasting money on dubs IMO. BTW, I don't know if this contradicts my previous post, but one thing I'd like to make clear is that I download what I want without giving a damn whether or not it's "ethical", or even legal. In Canada, and I assume the United States as well, such downloads are technically illegal, but nobody seems to care, and as far as I know, it's never enforced, at least not in my area. I wasn't trying to justify my actions, but I do believe that the anime industry could handle things a little better. Also, I honestly intend to buy all my favourite anime and manga series some day. I have a strong desire to build a collection of anime and manga, and right now I have almost nothing in the way of DVDs and manga. Problem is, I'm broke most of the time. |
SubstanceDMar 15, 2008 7:41 PM
Flame_Haze said: I'm sorry to say that getting faster releases and just subbing is costing alot more. Look at Bandai Visual. Quote from ANN: "The first six English-subbed Bandai Visual DVDs of this series will start shipping on May 13 for US$39.99 with two episodes each; the seventh and last DVD will have one episode for US$29.99." I'm sorry that kind of price for so little is a huge joke and proves that getting licenses faster and releasing them quicker does not lower the price. That only goes to show that Bandai are insane. Fansubbers prove things can be done in a timely, and high quality manner. The costs of licensing have little to do with the timeframe in which it is licensed, though it probably is a factor, but Bandai are just stupid for trying to ask those sort of prices. |
| Fansubbers prove nothing except speed. DVDS are higher quality and the companies themselves have access to the original episode files. I find that funny that Bandai is blamed for those prices when they obviously had to pay a higher price due to the JAPANESE companies wanting too much for the series. |
| so is this like saying o.o japan will cut off United States isp if we get the raws or something? |
| Japan will cut off the Japanese people's internet from the piraters who are caught. This will likely mean less anime raws and manga raws being released since Japanese people are the ones who typically upload them. |
| wow that sucks x_x |
Risami said: wow that sucks x_x Try not to worry since people who use secure connections in Japan can still get the stuff out for everyone.^^ If they don't use secure connections though they will lose their internet connection with their isp permanently. |
| well i'm worried that it might happen to the united states thats what i'm worried about xP i like buying dvds but sometime i watch fansubs since it takes forever for united states to bring them here. Like Da capo :P i been waiting for the DVD releases, uncut tokyo mew mew, kirarin revolution, and all that but seems like it won't happen :( |
| To be honest I doubt American ISPs will get that strict since its alot of hassle and there would be a huge fight in the courts if this was attempted here. It's sad that the Japanese have to resort to this. I also dislike when shows I love aren't licensed or released like Shakugan no Shana 2. Geneon licesnsed the first season then they withdrew from the dvd distributing business so now I have no idea what will happen to Shakugan no Shana 2 here. Off Topic: I love your Kyo signature and avatar. <3 |
Flame_Haze said: Fansubbers prove nothing except speed. DVDS are higher quality and the companies themselves have access to the original episode files. I find that funny that Bandai is blamed for those prices when they obviously had to pay a higher price due to the JAPANESE companies wanting too much for the series. Bandai is a Japanese company with an American branch.... They're trying to put a JP price point in the American market...which is just not going to work. |
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| Yeah, I know US anime could release popular shows but if there are shows that i like that US doesn't think that are good. I wonder if somebody from japan sends a episode on msn to somebody in the US o.o i wonder if they can get caught like that? o.o and thanks :P i got the avatar and sig from animesuki :P i like your avatar also |
Flame_Haze said: Fansubbers prove nothing except speed. DVDS are higher quality and the companies themselves have access to the original episode files. I find that funny that Bandai is blamed for those prices when they obviously had to pay a higher price due to the JAPANESE companies wanting too much for the series. Of course the DVDs are higher quality when they have the source video to work with. I already said that. Fansubbers still, generally, do a better job of translation and typesetting though. And Bandai are a Japanese company. They just have a US branch. The pricing modal being used for the current series in question is closer to that which is used in Japan, two eps fr $30-40 (in Japan a two ep disc can go as high as 9000 yen, or ~$90.) howerver, as I said, most of the money is made on merchandise there, not the DVD sales. shipping 20,000 units is considered good sales. In the US (and other countries that distribute the US releases) it's different. The consumer is used to getting 3-4, or even 6-7 episodes per disc, so that a whole series will be $70-120 (depending on length and specific pricing) but that's all they buy, the merch generally isn't remarketed. If people want the figures, posters and other stuff, they have to import it. The companies know this and that's why they tend to make good value box sets, just so they can make sales. They're two entirely separate entities and can't be compared. Bandai are just being stupid, though. They're trying to take the Japanese approach in other countries, which simply isn't going to work. Very few people will pay those prices, which means they're going to lose out. It's far more logical to have 50,000 people buy something at $10, than have 10,000 people buy something at $30. And they will make more sales at cheaper prices. People will see a disc at $10 and be "hey, that's not much. I can afford that." but they see $40 and think "$40 for two eps? fuck that shit." That sort of pricing only serves to encourage piracy, not stem it. |
Flame_Haze said: I find that funny that Bandai is blamed for those prices when they obviously had to pay a higher price due to the JAPANESE companies wanting too much for the series. This is a very salient point. The studios/companies in Japan generally sell licenses to foreign companies at a negotiated cost, usually independent of whether they will be dubbed or not. So licensing costs will not decrease with sub-only releases, nor will marketing costs, although the lack of dubbing will shave a significant portion off the overall cost of production. In addition to high pricing, the Japanese practice of forcing package purchases of lesser quality shows along with the one gem the distributors here want is not helping either. I myself have seen the effects of a two-tiered pricing structure in the days of VHS Dub/Sub sales, however, and I am not particularly eager to return to that. It's a bit of an ugly truth, but most anime customers are dub viewers, and for years the dub sales subsidized the cost of sub tapes, even when you had to pay $40 for two episodes of subbed Bubblegum Crisis (which I did, once upon a dark time.) DVD negated that, but now we seem to be returning to that model. If the US distributors have already paid for the license, as long as dub sales make up for dubbing costs, it really doesn't make sense not to make a dub. And I suspect Shigofumi and True Tears will eventually get a dub, after maximum profit is extracted from the sub buyers. But until the Japanese licensors soften a little, domestic profit margins will thin. Maybe a distributor or two will fold. Great lamentation on the impending death of anime will follow. And then we'll decide which of the 50+ shows debuting in Japan for the season we'll want to watch. |
  |
| The point I was trying to make was Japanese companies want more money for a license that is still airing on tv because they believe they can use the newness factor as an advantage and thus drive up the price to U.S. dub/sub anime distributing companies. |
| There's sub only series like Simoun and Emma released for CHEAP by Media Blasters and Right Stuf. A model which I support with my money. Bandai Visual won't sell me any DVDs with their methods. |
|
kasumisama said: There's sub only series like Simoun and Emma released for CHEAP by Media Blasters and Right Stuf. A model which I support with my money. Bandai Visual won't sell me any DVDs with their methods. And I doubt those series got licensed extremely quickly. I have to say that the price that companies pay for the license is varying in an extreme from one company to another. |
Flame_Haze said: The point I was trying to make was Japanese companies want more money for a license that is still airing on tv because they believe they can use the newness factor as an advantage and thus drive up the price to U.S. dub/sub anime distributing companies. Have any proof to back that up? It's hard for a brand new series to sell well when nobody's heard of it, there's no reviews around online because it's not finished airing and such. While in Japan this stuff is advertised on anime networks and sites and magazines, everywhere else people don't have that stuff available to them. It makes more sense to license a few months after a series has aired and word of mouth has got around etc. Talking about the average shelf browser, that is, not people who follow fansubs and dedicated sites like this. |
| Proof? How can I have proof when shows are never licensed as fast as those 2 shows got licensed. I lol at you expecting me to have proof. |
Flame_Haze said: Proof? How can I have proof when shows are never licensed as fast as those 2 shows got licensed. I lol at you expecting me to have proof. The way you say it sounds like you're read figures listing the prices that those two shows were licensed for, and that it was so much more than 'normal' due to them being current. |
| Bandai Visual released Gunbuster, an 80s show, at the same high price point, so it's just a company policy that has nothing to do with the age of the show. |
|
Flame_Haze said: The point I was trying to make was Japanese companies want more money for a license that is still airing on tv because they believe they can use the newness factor as an advantage and thus drive up the price to U.S. dub/sub anime distributing companies. The only current example I could think of with a fast release at very high prices is Bandai Visual USA so it's not a widespread practice at the moment. In that case I don't see 'newness' so much a factor as trying to keep their rigid price structure intact for the Japanese market. Putting out a series in Japan for $60 and then simultaneously or shortly after in America for half the price is a surefire way to cut into your profit margins via reverse importation. When a series comes out in America several months or years after its Japanese release they don't have to worry as much since anyone who really wanted it in Japan would have already picked it up by then. EDIT: We've gotten extremely off the topic of the first post ^^; Concerning what the Japanese ISPs are attempting to try, I don't see it as working out too well. The harder you try to stop the pirates the more resourceful they will get. This may curb some illegal uploading and downloading but it will be near impossible to stop. |
tainteddonutMar 15, 2008 8:59 PM
 ...even a saint needs a soldier to do the dirty work. |
| Even when off topic, this has been one of the most intelligent threads I've seen on MAL |
tainteddonut said: Concerning what the Japanese ISPs are attempting to try, I don't see it as working out too well. The harder you try to stop the pirates the more resourceful they will get. This may curb some illegal uploading and downloading but it will be near impossible to stop. More like impossible, period. There's no way to stop it. There will always be secure methods for people to share, even if it's greatly stemmed, it won't ever be stopped. No matter how prices fall, there will always be those who want it for free. Me, I already pay a lot for anime. I just dislike the waits, so I watch stuff as it airs, then buy it on DVD as it's available in budget box set form. If DVD releases get down to mere weeks, to month long delays, then I'll stop downloading it. As long as DVD releases take as long as they do, they won't stop me downloading raws and softsubs. |
| I'll always download but then again I'll always buy the anime I like, so Downloading has it's up's and downs in buisness. Well I'll buy them if I have enough after buying the figures, manga, CD's, ETC.... plus the remaining Anime Series that I have to finish buying. |
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| After reading all the above posts, I must say the majority of the portion of the community that has posted so far likes to speak while knowing nearly nothing. Just one more reason to only check the forums every few days. As its already been said, this won't stop the subbing. So don't worry about that at all. It will, of course, cut down on the piracy within Japan. As for DVD prices, I usually wait until they drop. I have anime DVDs with 4 episodes on them with both dubs and subs that I bought for $20. Its just a matter of being patient and buying what you like. I download frequently, but I generally buy an anime I thought was good after the price drops or when you can buy the whole series for a fair price. Think about it: if the product doesn't sell in stores because the price is too high, it can't be sent back to the manufacturer. So these products get their price dropped so the shelves can be filled with something else. Its pretty simple. |
| | Suikoden Fan Club[/right] |
Shiranai said: Think about it: if the product doesn't sell in stores because the price is too high, it can't be sent back to the manufacturer. So these products get their price dropped so the shelves can be filled with something else. Its pretty simple. Not always the case. While in most cases the retailer does have a good bit of control over the end price, sometimes the producer does, giving the retailer very little leeway. If things don't sell at their marked price they can sit on a shelf for years, until the retailer decides to take the hit and sell it off under what they paid for it to, as you say, to clear space for something else. Though there are also cases where it -is- sent back to the manufacturer, though they tend to be rare deals these days. Everybody knows Bandai is being stupid with trying to adopt the Japanese pricing modal in foreign markets. They'll sell very few units due to it. Other companies manage a lot better with their lower price points. As for the topic itself, yeah, this won't stop anything. It may deter casual uploaders but it won't stop everybody, especially the determined folk. Really nothing to worry about. Also, yeah, buying box sets or slim packs is the way to go if you're any sort of collector. It's too expensive to buy launch products. Just be patient, stick with your fansubs and wait for the box set to come out at a reasonable price. |
| Yup, stick with your fansubs till your respective countries tighten down on pirating. We all know it will happen all countries sooner rather than later, at least first world countries. The amount of strictness I'm sure will differ greatly but you should be prepared for law changes that could certainly happen. Also keep in mind there are companies out there that throttle torrents so they can hinder torrents badly even if there is ways to counter that. They will probably counter the counter of users getting past the throttling somehow and it will just be crazy. >_> Comcast is using the technology in the U.S. and I think some Canadian ISPs are as well. |
| This is really stupid, people should fight for their rights. Like in Sweden (and hopefully in Finland, in future). |
| Wow, I better buy DVR or TiVo when I move there... |
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| I say...if the Anime industry has a plan to provide good subbed anime and decent prices, I would never pirate another thing, as it is though....not much hope of that ever happening >.< as much as I want it too. |
 |
| quick question for anyone who knows -- is it every ISP threatening to deny service or just a handful of them? I imagine enforcing this rule would be pretty bad for business if other ISPs are willing to overlook it. By the way, the yahoo article this stub is based on says this policy is only "in planning". Im not sure how serious they actually are about it, but in many cases thats just a way of saying "we just wanna look like were doing something about the problem so whoever it is will shut up about it". |
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| i read this off of yahoo news the other day it kinda sux |
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