In your opinion does fate series have one of the best power system out of Magic related anime shows?
| Title as suggested, Thoughts on their power system? |
AnimeFA78NJan 13, 2022 10:56 PM
deg said: youre missing another word at least in your title and question i think Thanks bro, Anyway thoughts on the topic if you have any? |
| I wouldn't say Fate has the greatest Magic System, but it does have the most understandable one; it is simple to comprehend while not being simplistic, which makes it acually really good. As an example, those who believe Nen is the best power system will find it to be very good but not the best. It's complex, but once you understand it, it makes sense, and you can accomplish a lot with it, similar to how Fate magic and noble phantasims operate... I believe. I don't think I have a favourite power system, but rather a collection of favourites because they're all diverse in their own ways, making it difficult to choose. |
  『ᴅᴇᴍᴏɴ-ʟɪᴋᴇ ᴊᴜᴅɢᴇ ᴏꜰ ꜰɪʀᴇ』 Then her jaw slackened as she muttered out. [I... am the bi◼️?] ☽ † ☾ - ᴅᴇʟɪᴠᴇʀɪᴇꜱ- ꜱɪɢ ᴍᴀᴅᴇ ʙʏ ʜᴜᴍᴀɴᴛᴡɪɢ |
| No, tbh it's pretty shit, I wouldn't ever praise Fate for its magic system where you refill mana by having sex. For me what comes to mind as a good magic system are Mahouka, Overlord, Mushoku. |
| dxd has a better magic system, magi too, fate is ok but not that complicated |
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Catalano said: dxd has a better magic system, magi too, fate is ok but not that complicated Do you think complicating a power system improves it? As a writer, i'm legitimately curious. I haven't seen Magi or dxd, but I think the power system in HxH for example is kinda ass due to being needlessly complicated for no good reason. As far for decent ones, I like what FMA does with it's magi-science aka alchemy. |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| No, it is too convoluted of a magic system. Even I still don't understand it. (I don't understand what is going on over half of the time). What I would say is my favorite (Magic system) would be the Devil Fruit system in One Piece. A person has to give up their ability to swim to be able to have a Devil Fruit ability. It's simple on the surface but it's complicated at the same time. |
ReturnbyNathan said: No, it is too convoluted of a magic system. Even I still don't understand it. (I don't understand what is going on over half of the time). What I would say is my favorite (Magic system) would be the Devil Fruit system in One Piece. A person has to give up their ability to swim to be able to have a Devil Fruit ability. It's simple on the surface but it's complicated at the same time. In regards to devil fruits, they seemed a bit unbalanced at first which was why Oda had to create haki. It's like halfway through OP he decided that he no longer wanted characters relying on crazy magic and that it all had to be based on strength and willpower. Through the devil fruits system, characters such a Sugar should be able to defeat Kaido. But it seems like Oda said "no" and threw away all that magic system creativity for the sake of a DBZ-esque powerlevels system. I love devil fruits, but it seems like Oda wasn't confident enough in them alone. But that is just my opinion. |
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
EndlessMaria said: Catalano said: dxd has a better magic system, magi too, fate is ok but not that complicated Do you think complicating a power system improves it? As a writer, i'm legitimately curious. I haven't seen Magi or dxd, but I think the power system in HxH for example is kinda ass due to being needlessly complicated for no good reason. As far for decent ones, I like what FMA does with it's magi-science aka alchemy. to be specific, in dxd, they made it so a demon who increased his muscle magic stats can go against a demon who only increased his regular magic, I like that there are ways around it, you don't have to be pure bred or posses a special magic item to be powerful. issei has a special magical dragon and increases his stats on that whereas another dude specializes in sword magic and he can go against issei. in magi, it's the fact that they explain how magic is made and its effects, it's all about natural elements, a magician combines water magic with fire magic to create steam magic but that steam magic is useful only to hide something, you can't attack with that. and every magician has a limited magoi that can use, no powerups. I don't think it has to be complicated but it has to be sorta logical like in those dota games and powerups shouldn't come out of nowhere |
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Catalano said: EndlessMaria said: Do you think complicating a power system improves it? As a writer, i'm legitimately curious. I haven't seen Magi or dxd, but I think the power system in HxH for example is kinda ass due to being needlessly complicated for no good reason. As far for decent ones, I like what FMA does with it's magi-science aka alchemy. to be specific, in dxd, they made it so a demon who increased his muscle magic stats can go against a demon who only increased his regular magic, I like that there are ways around it, you don't have to be pure bred or posses a special magic item to be powerful. issei has a special magical dragon and increases his stats on that whereas another dude specializes in sword magic and he can go against issei. in magi, it's the fact that they explain how magic is made and its effects, it's all about natural elements, a magician combines water magic with fire magic to create steam magic but that steam magic is useful only to hide something, you can't attack with that. and every magician has a limited magoi that can use, no powerups. I don't think it has to be complicated but it has to be sorta logical like in those dota games and powerups shouldn't come out of nowhere Thanks for the explanation. Sounds neat. I need to watch magi and dxd some time. The steam magic and the use of it sounds neat since yeah, steam itself wouldn't cause significant damage to tough enemies. So using it like that hidden mist jutsu from Naruto would work strategically in combination with other magic or other magic user teammates. Like support magic. |
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
EndlessMaria said: Catalano said: dxd has a better magic system, magi too, fate is ok but not that complicated Do you think complicating a power system improves it? As a writer, i'm legitimately curious. I haven't seen Magi or dxd, but I think the power system in HxH for example is kinda ass due to being needlessly complicated for no good reason. As far for decent ones, I like what FMA does with it's magi-science aka alchemy. If it's complicated while serving its purpose in the story and it's consistent I don't see the problem. I feel like being detailed while making sense breathes life into it and at the same time I don't think you can go wrong with a flexible simple power system if it's polished enough. Fate, however, is neither those, it's neither explored enough and it's barebones too, just characters spitting out abilities and calling it magic. |
Crimsunreaper said: EndlessMaria said: Do you think complicating a power system improves it? As a writer, i'm legitimately curious. I haven't seen Magi or dxd, but I think the power system in HxH for example is kinda ass due to being needlessly complicated for no good reason. As far for decent ones, I like what FMA does with it's magi-science aka alchemy. If it's complicated while serving its purpose in the story and it's consistent I don't see the problem. I feel like being detailed while making sense breathes life into it and at the same time I don't think you can go wrong with a flexible simple power system if it's polished enough. Fate, however, is neither those, it's neither explored enough and it's barebones too, just characters spitting out abilities and calling it magic. I like that. I think if magic is over explained, it no longer counts as "magic" and should be something else entirely, right? Magic by definition isn't something that can be quantified or studied. Like the popular idea that technology so advanced that it is beyond understanding would count as magic. And then we have magic tricks irl. Once you explain the trick, the magic disappears. I just think it suits magic better to not have a system that is too complicated to the point where it becomes a science (well, unless it is specifically written to be magi-science like alchemy from FMA. But at they point they just straight up call it alchemy so it isn't really pure magic any longer). |
EndlessMariaJan 14, 2022 12:13 AM
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| In general I'm a fan of it, though the more I learn about it the less I do like it due to so many tiny details hidden away in wikis that may or may not be more explained in the visual novels or other media, but just absolutely aren't anywhere to be seen in the anime, like the fact that Saber classes have a good amount of magic resistance, and all these other passive abilities. This absolutely does not matter if you only stick with the anime, this is just a personal grievance as I am very much a wiki diver. Otherwise, just general magic and Heroic Spirits having Noble Phantasms is nice, it's a simple system but leaves room for more. I also like the fact that it's video game-esque without making it feel like a video game ala the Isekai genre. If at any point I saw them mention levels or specific stat values within the show, I would have dropped the series immediately. |
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EndlessMaria said: Magic by definition isn't something that can be quantified or studied. Like the popular idea that technology so advanced that it is beyond understanding would count as magic. And then we have magic tricks irl. Once you explain the trick, the magic disappears. I just think it suits magic better to not have a system that is too complicated to the point where it becomes a science. There is certainly an argument to be made that magic looses some of its fantastic and mystic qualities when you're overexplaining it. But honestly, I don't see how that necessitates a simple magic system. If you really want to go the route of mystic and fantastic then why not lean into it and weave it into your lore and expand upon that. Like for example in Ancient Magus Bride, where they don't explain exactly how the intrinsics of the magic work but since it's interwoven with folklore, traditions, herbalism and magic creatures you can create a magic system that's fantastic but still in a way complex with lots to expand upon. |
AsturaetusJan 14, 2022 12:27 AM
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| Idk how having no system makes it the best system ? I love fate but it makes up new random ass bullshit whenever it wants. Watch all other fate material. Then watch wavers detective Conan knock off and try to solve a case yourself. It's impossible because you litteraly couldn't have considered the new shit waver just makes up |
EndlessMaria said: Crimsunreaper said: If it's complicated while serving its purpose in the story and it's consistent I don't see the problem. I feel like being detailed while making sense breathes life into it and at the same time I don't think you can go wrong with a flexible simple power system if it's polished enough. Fate, however, is neither those, it's neither explored enough and it's barebones too, just characters spitting out abilities and calling it magic. I like that. I think if magic is over explained, it no longer counts as "magic" and should be something else entirely, right? Magic by definition isn't something that can be quantified or studied. Like the popular idea that technology so advanced that it is beyond understanding would count as magic. And then we have magic tricks irl. Once you explain the trick, the magic disappears. I just think it suits magic better to not have a system that is too complicated to the point where it becomes a science (well, unless it is specifically written to be magi-science like alchemy from FMA). I see where you're coming from with the analogy, but at the same time, those often come as an overlooked plot device where it could've been developed further, like what the schools of magic exist, explore the tools that might enhance this magic. There's so much you could do to complement a simple power system to cement it in a story. So many stories underutilize those aspects including Fate. Mushoku Tensei, on the other hand, is a great example, where at its core is a simple power system, but gets enough polish like types of magic, tiers, magical implements, demon eyes, casting time that I can easily pass it off as a great power system. Asturaetus said: EndlessMaria said: Magic by definition isn't something that can be quantified or studied. Like the popular idea that technology so advanced that it is beyond understanding would count as magic. And then we have magic tricks irl. Once you explain the trick, the magic disappears. I just think it suits magic better to not have a system that is too complicated to the point where it becomes a science. There is certainly an argument to be made that magic looses some of its fantastic and mystic qualities when you're overexplaining it. But honestly, I don't see how that necessitates a simple magic system. If you really want to go the route of mystic and fantastic then why not lean into it and weave it into your lore and expand upon that. Like for example in Ancient Magus Bride, where they don't explain exactly how the intrinsics of the magic work but since it's interwoven with folklore, traditions, herbalism and magic creatures you can create a magic system that's fantastic but still in a way complex with lots to expand upon. I agree with a lot points you bring up here. Good Job. |
CrimsunreaperJan 14, 2022 12:38 AM
| The whole Fate shtick is laying some rules and than finding out hundreds of ways to cheat or break them. Like there is an artifact literally called "Rule Breaker". |
alshuJan 14, 2022 2:13 AM
EndlessMaria said: ReturnbyNathan said: No, it is too convoluted of a magic system. Even I still don't understand it. (I don't understand what is going on over half of the time). What I would say is my favorite (Magic system) would be the Devil Fruit system in One Piece. A person has to give up their ability to swim to be able to have a Devil Fruit ability. It's simple on the surface but it's complicated at the same time. In regards to devil fruits, they seemed a bit unbalanced at first which was why Oda had to create haki. It's like halfway through OP he decided that he no longer wanted characters relying on crazy magic and that it all had to be based on strength and willpower. Through the devil fruits system, characters such a Sugar should be able to defeat Kaido. But it seems like Oda said "no" and threw away all that magic system creativity for the sake of a DBZ-esque powerlevels system. I love devil fruits, but it seems like Oda wasn't confident enough in them alone. But that is just my opinion. Technically Oda has implemented Haki in the story from the very start of the story (Chapter 1) He just didn't quite have quite a decent implantation until (Skypiea) which is still early on in the story. Then Oda uses his masterful foreshadowing to add Haki to the story. If it was anything like "DBZ-esque powerlevels system" like you say then bounty posters would be a representation of a character's strength. Which is certainly not the case. Just look at Chopper. |
| For me the best power system is in world trigger and tower of god (if you remove jahad's princess, irregulars) |
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ReturnbyNathan said: EndlessMaria said: In regards to devil fruits, they seemed a bit unbalanced at first which was why Oda had to create haki. It's like halfway through OP he decided that he no longer wanted characters relying on crazy magic and that it all had to be based on strength and willpower. Through the devil fruits system, characters such a Sugar should be able to defeat Kaido. But it seems like Oda said "no" and threw away all that magic system creativity for the sake of a DBZ-esque powerlevels system. I love devil fruits, but it seems like Oda wasn't confident enough in them alone. But that is just my opinion. Technically Oda has implemented Haki in the story from the very start of the story (Chapter 1) He just didn't quite have quite a decent implantation until (Skypiea) which is still early on in the story. Then Oda uses his masterful foreshadowing to add Haki to the story. If it was anything like "DBZ-esque powerlevels system" like you say then bounty posters would be a representation of a character's strength. Which is certainly not the case. Just look at Chopper. I'm well aware that Shanks used haki in the first chapter and that the Skypeian's mantra was observation haki. But here's the thing: there was no indication that Oda had actually conceptualized "haki" at that point. in all honesty, these instances were more likely to be retconned as haki. Shanks looked at the seaking with a threatening aura, which scared the piss out of it. This is a common manga trope. But the introduction of haki later explains it. I'm not downplaying Oda as a writer since he's clearing amazing, but we got to remember, one piece is a serialized story. He has stated that he never planned it to be this long. I think he's just extremely talented at improvising. Almost absurdly good at it to the point where he can make retcons seem like he planned a 1000+ chapter story right from the start. realistically though, the weekly manga industry just doesn't really work that way. The skypeian's mantra was introduced as more of a mystic ability at first. But Oda introducing haki at a later stage neatly wrapped the mantra's observation ability into haki as a tight package. Even by the time we got to amazon lily and haki was fully established, we still didn't get much of the visible armament coating, since at that point in the story, Oda didn't think of it yet. One Piece is great and I've been following it since skypeia was being serialized in the manga, however; i honestly believe that Oda did not intend for haki to be a concept from chapter 1. Shanks' intimidation feat fits the narrative he later constructed for it. When I brought up the DBZ power system, I was NOT referring to numbers. I just meant how characters with greater haki will always automatically defeat characters with lesser haki. At least as of now. One Piece combat has become a haki measuring contest, which was why I equated it to DBZ powerlevels. It has absolutely nothing to do with the bounty system, which as you clearly know, does NOT measure powerlevels. No offense, but I feel like you are kinda assuming i don't know anything about one piece; the way you describe it to me while downplaying my statements. |
EndlessMariaJan 14, 2022 2:38 AM
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| I'd certainly say it's one of the best. I do think the Magic system in Nasuverse in general is quite overlooked. |
| it's pretty good, but it's flawed. some of their noble phantasms are weak, while others are OP. it's obvious who's gonna win in the first place. |
| no more forum pic. that's it. |
| no, I love Fate, but it probably has one of the worst. For an anime I love to criticize, Mushoku Tensei probably takes the cake for best power system |
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| The only other anime I have watched with magic system is re:zero. It's simple from the outside but complicated from the inside |
| I'm not sure if I'd consider it the best, but I do find it fascinating. Ignoring anything that Servants are capable of, as thats a whole other beast entirely, the magic that is used by the human mages themselves such as jewel magic, runes, projection, and far more that are too varied to list them all, can lead to "random bullshit" being pulled from nowhere, but they generally only have one or two tricks each to keep it balanced. What I do find interesting is that even the high ranked magi, those from long established families that have built up more power over several generations, are still only capable of low tier magecraft, and the goal of practically every mage is to unlock the ability of those miracle-like feats, whether you are an up and coming new mage or an experienced veteran from a line of powerful mages, they're all in the same boat and seeking that True Magic. |
| My favorite magic system is from Index because it's somewhat based in reality and is very complex |
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EndlessMaria said: I'm well aware that Shanks used haki in the first chapter and that the Skypeian's mantra was observation haki. But here's the thing: there was no indication that Oda had actually conceptualized "haki" at that point. in all honesty, these instances were more likely to be retconned as haki. Shanks looked at the seaking with a threatening aura, which scared the piss out of it. This is a common manga trope. But the introduction of haki later explains it. I'm not downplaying Oda as a writer since he's clearing amazing, but we got to remember, one piece is a serialized story. He has stated that he never planned it to be this long. I think he's just extremely talented at improvising. Almost absurdly good at it to the point where he can make retcons seem like he planned a 1000+ chapter story right from the start. realistically though, the weekly manga industry just doesn't really work that way. The skypeian's mantra was introduced as more of a mystic ability at first. But Oda introducing haki at a later stage neatly wrapped the mantra's observation ability into haki as a tight package. Even by the time we got to amazon lily and haki was fully established, we still didn't get much of the visible armament coating, since at that point in the story, Oda didn't think of it yet. One Piece is great and I've been following it since skypeia was being serialized in the manga, however; i honestly believe that Oda did not intend for haki to be a concept from chapter 1. Shanks' intimidation feat fits the narrative he later constructed for it. When I brought up the DBZ power system, I was NOT referring to numbers. I just meant how characters with greater haki will always automatically defeat characters with lesser haki. At least as of now. One Piece combat has become a haki measuring contest, which was why I equated it to DBZ powerlevels. It has absolutely nothing to do with the bounty system, which as you clearly know, does NOT measure powerlevels. No offense, but I feel like you are kinda assuming i don't know anything about one piece; the way you describe it to me while downplaying my statements. Personally, I believe Haki was planned from the beginning, or atleast the concept of a second power system. Oda already had Smoker introduced before the Grand Line, and without Haki (like we see during the loguetown arc) he is basically unbeatable (at least by Luffy). I doubt that Oda would have made devil fruits the way he did if he hadn't planned for something like Haki to help balance out certain DFs. The same could be said about Shanks being an emperor even though he doesn't have a devil fruit; obviously there has to be some kind of power system that would allow him to compete with a man who can make earthquakes, a lady who can steal your soul, and a guy who turns into a dragon. I think Oda wanted Haki to be something akin to Nen in the sense that we start the series with absolutely no knowledge of it, and it's only after gaining the knowledge of it that you start to gleam a deeper level of understanding from past events. For example, Shanks scaring off the Sea King is something we just accept as viewers because, as you mentioned, it is pretty cliche, but because we accept it without question, Oda is able to maintain the secret of Haki and avoid a forced, info-dump straight off the bat. Similarly, in HxH there is a scene during the Hunter exams where Hisoka turns a dudes arms into flower petals, which most people in the audience probably ignored as "artistic fluff" but when Nen is revealed it becomes obvious that Hisoka simply cut the guys arms into mincemeat and turned said mincemeat into flower petals using Texture Surprise. Also, I agree to a certain extent (specifically when it comes down to the most recent two big fights for Luffy (Katakuri and Kaidou)) that it has turned into a bit of a Haki dick-measuring contest, but I do believe it's very much intentional as a way to force Luffy to increase his observation and armament Haki, respectively to the strength tier required for the final opponents of the series, and hopefully the future fights won't be so focused on improving his haki, but we'll see. Fortunately, there have been several DFs introduced after Haki that can kinda ignore strong haki opponents. The best example is Sugar's hobi hobi no mi, as all she has to do is touch someone to defeat them, but even Caeser's gasu gasu no mi has the ability to remove oxygen from the air, which can take out even the strongest of haki users, assuming they can't defeat him before losing conciousness. Personally, I think the worst part of Haki's implementation was Marine-ford; as an audience we had atleast a decent grasp of what Haki was capable of, even if we hadn't received text-book definitions, but for some reason, even though it's called "the war of the best", no one uses Haki basically the whole time. The only one who does is Luffy when they try to kill Ace, but instead of others challenging his haki, they just sit there in awe, even though there are countless characters present who definitely also have conqueror's haki. This arc really makes haki's implementation weird, because it went from (pre-timeskip) haki being akin to a myth, to (post-timeskip) everyone and there mother knows about Haki. It's a little more gradual of a transition than I just implied, but starting at Punk Hazard, it seems like almost everyone introduced at that point or afterwards knows of Haki(even if they can't use it). |
| Poyo. |
| Hunter x Hunter is known for having the best power system, but I haven't seen Fate yet, so I wouldn't know. |
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| yea the power system is very good... |
Erebus_Akeldama said: hxh does it better but the fate power system is still amazing Hunter x Hunter is known for having the best power system, but I haven't seen Fate yet, so I wouldn't know. |
| hmm its certainly up there. i dont think you can find anything with a better power system than naruto chakra... but the concept of "class servants" was genius |
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