| I've noticed a trend of anime placing the traditionally masculine characters—both in character and appearance—on the side of "good and virtuous", whereas characters with traits associated more with women (being mild-mannered, less direct, pretty & boyish looking, elegant & graceful etc.) are instead placed in the evil role or at the very least morally greyer than the aforementioned hero, whether it be by scheming behind the scenes, believing ends justify the means, or just being more willing to dirty their hands for their convictions. Examples would include Guts v. Griffith, Yang v. Reinhard, Kōgami v. Makishima, Tenma v. Johan, Hak v Soo-won or even a bit more subtly Naruto v. Sasuke. Do you think this reflects some sort of bias on part of the creators, or do you think it to be harmless? Is there any other examples you can think of? Has it somewhat subsided through time as the examples I gave were all relatively old works? Can you think of a counter-example that subverts this (of course in the case of main characters)? So on so forth. |
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| Thats because all seinen shows try to be Berserk which tries to be Devilman |
| I'm pretty sure that such trait also happens in Disney movies, as an example. In some way, it could be a distinction between the main character and the villain through their personality, so instead of gender bending the main character they give traits that are less desirable from the gender perspective to the villain (Like, when you think about a villain you think about an ugly woman or a highly sophisticated man, like Pouf from HxH, it is like ingrained by the media). If I could give another example from other perspective that is not anime (To generalize this) it would be Scar. I don't hink it is harmless because it set up a set of undesirable traits in people that could pretty much just be gender traits, so man who are more into girl traits are seen as untrustable and such |
| The last time I checked, 700k people got very upset they weren't allowed to speak of crossdressers. Well, maybe they were using a more impolite term, but people got very upset about the perspective and the main reason why and how people were using such terms in the first place. Counterexamples would probably be your average s.o.l stuff, but I don't have anything for more serious anime. |
| More like the brute force but kindhearted guy vs. the mastermind, serious, manipulative guy. Within those examples, Sasuke is not a mastermind and more brute, but is still presented as a genius in his universe. I don't think Reinhard is presented as a pretty boy, even though everyone thinks that way. LOGH is very historically influenced so I kept seeing him as the traditional idea of male beauty. Plus both of the guys are presented as geniuses in their universe. Other examples? What about Ichigo and Aizen? Too much of a stretch? Holmes and Moriarty in the most recent example Moriarty the Patriot played with those stereotipes a little by making both pretty with fujoshi vibes and...can't say no more. |
| Ginga Eiyuu Densetsu doesn't have villains. |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
TheFireNinja said: Auron_ said: I've noticed a trend of anime placing the traditionally masculine characters—both in character and appearance—on the side of "good and virtuous", whereas characters with traits associated more with women (being mild-mannered, less direct, pretty & boyish looking, elegant & graceful etc.) are instead placed in the evil role or at the very least morally greyer than the aforementioned hero, whether it be by scheming behind the scenes, believing ends justify the means, or just being more willing to dirty their hands for their convictions. Examples would include Guts v. Griffith, Yang v. Reinhard, Kōgami v. Makishima, Tenma v. Johan, Hak v Soo-won or even a bit more subtly Naruto v. Sasuke. Do you think this reflects some sort of bias on part of the creators, or do you think it to be harmless? Is there any other examples you can think of? Has it somewhat subsided through time as the examples I gave were all relatively old works? Can you think of a counter-example that subverts this (of course in the case of main characters)? So on so forth. I don't know most of the people that you listed except for Naruto and Sasuke. What makes you think Sasuke's effeminate? Just because he's the quiet type? Because I never saw him as a pretty boy. And not all effeminate characters are bad. One example is Shun from Saint Seiya. I think you're overgeneralizing. I'd agree that it's the weakest case among all of them here, but well, Sasuke is indeed pretty to a lot of fans. He's also not very boisterous and rowdy like a 12 y/o boy would expected to be (talking about first season). He's not the forthcoming type either, keeping his thoughts undisclosed. He doesn't lash out to others or make strong displays of emotion (for the most part). I also am fairly confident that I can find more Sasuke femboy fanart than I could for Naruto. I don't think Sasuke is super feminine, but I think there are certain aspects. Phosphophyllita said: Ginga Eiyuu Densetsu doesn't have villains. If you had read it, you'd see I also included "or otherwise morally greyer" here as well and not just villains, which I'd absolutely consider Reinhard to be. Westerland alone is enough to place him in a more ethically questionable territory than Yang. |
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| I've seen none of the shows you mentioned, but I've heard about them. But the traits you mentioned are also generally the traits of a cunning and guile tactician. I'd say that they'd serve as a counterpart to the more temperamental and boisterous MC. An example of this dynamic would be Lelouch and Suzaku in Code Geass, where Lelouch is "effeminate". However, he is also very much guile and utilitarian, and is the main character. I'd say that this exists because cunning and guile acts are generally seen as underhanded and immoral, and that being straightforward and honest is seen as a good trait. A boisterous and temperamental MC also results in a MC with lots of agency in the story, and some prebuilt character arcs if done well. A cunning and guile villain makes for a threatening villain also. |
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| I think the portrayal of "manly men" generally has them as straight forward virtuous or evil but always strong and in their own way courageous or just a man's man" regardless of their motivations, but more "effeminate or less masculine" seeming men tend to be portrayed as more conniving or underhanded etc to get what they want since they are being portrayed to be less physically capable and therefor have to resort to alternative tactics many view as cheap or weak and therefore they are less appealing to many. Basically Alpha men good and easy to look up to, Beta men bad and easier to look down on. Alpha men can take what they want, Beta men need to resort to intelligent, underhanded or trickery and people don't like that approach as much and many may see it as pathetic and weak etc I am generalizing but I think it falls into something more like that. Also the more effeminate men tend to be more emotional I find in their portrayals and societal norms are often that strong men do not have emotions they are too tough to cry or get angry and desperate etc. Physically weaker men are not good enough to be the good guy etc. Not always the case and just my view of the portrayals obviously it is all bullshit but what ever. |
Auron_ said: I've noticed a trend of anime placing the traditionally masculine characters—both in character and appearance—on the side of "good and virtuous", whereas characters with traits associated more with women (being mild-mannered, less direct, pretty & boyish looking, elegant & graceful etc.) are instead placed in the evil role or at the very least morally greyer than the aforementioned hero, whether it be by scheming behind the scenes, believing ends justify the means, or just being more willing to dirty their hands for their convictions. Examples would include Guts v. Griffith, Yang v. Reinhard, Kōgami v. Makishima, Tenma v. Johan, Hak v Soo-won or even a bit more subtly Naruto v. Sasuke. Do you think this reflects some sort of bias on part of the creators, or do you think it to be harmless? Is there any other examples you can think of? Has it somewhat subsided through time as the examples I gave were all relatively old works? Can you think of a counter-example that subverts this (of course in the case of main characters)? So on so forth. Not everything is/needs to be about gender traits in storys... The japanese are not the westeners obssesed with gender roles and aspects of masculinity/feminity... !!! It's not Anime trating effeminacy (of guys) as a villainous trait, is villainous guys being more feminine... It's just a trope...used as a plot device, for realism, story purposes and symbolism... -Johan represents the antichrist and decives humans so of course he's the opposite of some ugly loser when it comes to his looks. The villain being beautiful while manipulating the others adds to the realism of the story, nobody would listen to someone who looks like a stinky monkey... -Ligh Yagami is the morning star that brings light in the world when it comes to symbolism, as Lucifer, the brighest of the angels before falling into hell so of course he looks good. Angels are not portrayed as masculine bodybuilders... -Ryo is literally Satan... -Griffith was created to antagonise Guts in every way including his design, the two being opposites in every way and someone who is described as looking like a noble aristocrat and a charismatic leader of course will look like a handsome knight. How would respond a girl when some ugly masculine moron goes in the middle of a rainy night to sleep with her knocking at her window? For plot reasons, of course Griffith would be very beautiful and would stand out from the crowd. -Reinhart? Really? The most prideful and ambitios man in the galaxy who screams at his subordinates when he gets really pissed and has depression when he doesn't have a rival to fight to...? The guy radiates with masculinity, his design is just a product of the time when the series was made...! Look at Char/Oscar/Maetel/Cobra...etc! -Makishima is just a villain that respects the trope of being a villain with white/blond hair. Vicious from Cowboy Bebop, Kuze from GITS...? The Sasuke part is actually funny... |
DoruCatanaAug 22, 2021 5:50 PM
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| Other examples I can think of: Orochimaru from Naruto Orihara Izaya from Durarara Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter (although I think he’s more of a chaotic neutral than a full on villain) I personally consider this trope to be harmless. I’m not quite sure what the inspiration is, but my wild guess is it might have something to do with the idea that the devil is considered sexually ambiguous in the Christian religion. I haven’t read Devilman before, but I might give it a read in the future. But yeah, I don’t think the trope has subsided since there’s still quite a lot of effeminate villains in Hollywood and Disney movies. |
| I'm just here waiting to see what's effeminate about Reinhard. Or villainous even. He is in a position where he has to make though decisions. If we want to get technical on Westerland And Sasuke?... So being pretty, quiet and cold is effeminate?? Since when??? lmao Also how is fanart relevant to the discussion? There is probably furry fanart of Sasuke too, that doesn't make him a furry. But OT, like others have said, anime is not the only medium where many "villains" were made to be "effeminate". This has been said about Disney a lot of times too. |
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| i agree with @/dorucatana point there^ it's just a trope on writing, where the rival character that opposes the protagonist mostly contrasts them visually and trait-wise. especially with action-based genre, it just happened that the manly blatant-like guy fit more to be the protagonist rather than the graceful flamboyant type. and that might also apply to other fictional franchises like harry & malfoy, sherlock & moriarty, the stark fam & the lannister, aladdin & jafar, batman & joker, etc I'm not sure what bias this trope but i think it also works on human psychological state on how they interpret others by their traits and their looks which I'm sure Google knows better than me |
| In western media, presenting queerness as villainous is a dark heritage from the days of the Hays Code. Anything that defied "good, righteous, divine-law, natural" concepts was to be portrayed as unequivocally undesirable or bad, given that the audience was supposed to never, ever be led astray to sympathize with what wasn't "good, righteous, divine-law, natural". The more unnatural and queer, the more it had to be presented either as evil or as tragic (as in ending up dead). It end up becoming the norm: villains are queer, heroes are traditionally masculine, because, you know, nature and God and stuff. It was also the only way gay men could be portrayed, so if the director really wanted a gay character, that's all they could do. What was seen as natural was the classic portrayal of the hero for men and of the damsel in distress for women. Men are heroic by heads-on strength. Men are villainous by coveted cunning – which means they aren't capable of/look down on heads-on strength, therefore "not a proper man". For women, it's the other way around. After all, what's more unnatural than a man behaving womanlike? It was read by the audience as evil and it obeyed the Code, furthering its manifest purpose of reinforcing gender roles against the rumors of sexual liberation and making the public in general less accepting of "the queers". Thus, queer people are dangerous, murderous, manipulative, etc. The most famous serial killer in cinema wore his mother's clothes and spoke in a feminine, quiet voice. The counterpart to Hannibal Lecter's composure (which is already pretty queer by himself) was a frantic crossdresser. Most Disney villains, men and women alike. The Code went away, but the tropes survived; much less prolific nowadays, sure, but still popping up here and there. What you noticed in anime is just an extension of a long history of queercoding villains. |
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Everything said in this post above mine 💯 As mentioned, it happens to both men and women alike, but OP only mentioning men makes sense since it definitely happens more with in guys especially in more reactionary media like anime. This is because female villains are less common and because cishet homophobes (especially male homophobes) tend to explicitly hate on mlm and the lack of 'masculinity' more (as opposed to sapphic women who are oversexualized). But many female villains are also queercoded by acting very masculine/non-feminine. There are tons of examples in disney, but only one character comes to mind in anime: Lady Eboshi from Princess Mononoke (actually I guess this one is technically disney too lol). She's really camp with the big hats and long robes, and she's a very determined leader-type which is considered a stereotypically masculine thing. It's even more interesting because of the era that the story takes place in, and the way she commands men. The movie also literally characterizes her as a person who dislikes/distrusts men and saves women which is a big stereotype for lesbians. |
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Kosmonaut said: In western media, presenting queerness as villainous is a dark heritage from the days of the Hays Code. Anything that defied "good, righteous, divine-law, natural" concepts was to be portrayed as unequivocally undesirable or bad, given that the audience was supposed to never, ever be led astray to sympathize with what wasn't "good, righteous, divine-law, natural". The more unnatural and queer, the more it had to be presented either as evil or as tragic (as in ending up dead). It end up becoming the norm: villains are queer, heroes are traditionally masculine, because, you know, nature and God and stuff. It was also the only way gay men could be portrayed, so if the director really wanted a gay character, that's all they could do. What was seen as natural was the classic portrayal of the hero for men and of the damsel in distress for women. Men are heroic by heads-on strength. Men are villainous by coveted cunning – which means they aren't capable of/look down on heads-on strength, therefore "not a proper man". For women, it's the other way around. After all, what's more unnatural than a man behaving womanlike? It was read by the audience as evil and it obeyed the Code, furthering its manifest purpose of reinforcing gender roles against the rumors of sexual liberation and making the public in general less accepting of "the queers". Thus, queer people are dangerous, murderous, manipulative, etc. The most famous serial killer in cinema wore his mother's clothes and spoke in a feminine, quiet voice. The counterpart to Hannibal Lecter's composure (which is already pretty queer by himself) was a frantic crossdresser. Most Disney villains, men and women alike. The Code went away, but the tropes survived; much less prolific nowadays, sure, but still popping up here and there. What you noticed in anime is just an extension of a long history of queercoding villains. Wasn't the Hays Code adopted in the 90s , becoming enforced only later? Some of OP's exemples are from series made/who started before that...Griffith and Reinhart are from the 80s and Ryo from the notorius Devilman (who inspired Griffith) is from the 70s. I think the AniManga medium had this trope, at least to an extent, way before the Hays Code... |
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| Watch JOJO. DIO is masculine and seggsy af.... And about your question... I think its because the villain has to be "surprising"? And the best way show that is to make the villain "weak-looking". |
| If you ever feel bored and are questioning the meaning of your existence, read deez blogs. Maybe you will find your answers. |
DoruCatana said: Wasn't the Hays Code adopted in the 90s , becoming enforced only later? Some of OP's exemples are from series made/who started before that...Griffith and Reinhart are from the 80s and Ryo from the notorius Devilman (who inspired Griffith) is from the 70s. I think the AniManga medium had this trope, at least to an extent, way before the Hays Code... The Hays Code was in place from 1934 to 1968. So, it wasn't adopted in the 90s. |
  🔥 🔥 🔥 . 阿良々木 暦, 傷 物 語 . 🔥 🔥 🔥 Build a man a fire and you'll warm him for a night but set a man on fire and you'll warm him for the rest of his life... - H E N D Y - |
| Yes, and sometimes it bothers me, sometimes not. I have no problem with Devilman and Berserk, I think they portray their antagonists in a very humane way, which makes it tolerable. But yeah, I remember young me being like "huh" reading the Dragon Ball chapters about colonel Blue, or when rewatching Paprika recently. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
DoruCatana said: Auron_ said: I've noticed a trend of anime placing the traditionally masculine characters—both in character and appearance—on the side of "good and virtuous", whereas characters with traits associated more with women (being mild-mannered, less direct, pretty & boyish looking, elegant & graceful etc.) are instead placed in the evil role or at the very least morally greyer than the aforementioned hero, whether it be by scheming behind the scenes, believing ends justify the means, or just being more willing to dirty their hands for their convictions. Examples would include Guts v. Griffith, Yang v. Reinhard, Kōgami v. Makishima, Tenma v. Johan, Hak v Soo-won or even a bit more subtly Naruto v. Sasuke. Do you think this reflects some sort of bias on part of the creators, or do you think it to be harmless? Is there any other examples you can think of? Has it somewhat subsided through time as the examples I gave were all relatively old works? Can you think of a counter-example that subverts this (of course in the case of main characters)? So on so forth. Not everything is/needs to be about gender traits in storys... The japanese are not the westeners obssesed with gender roles and aspects of masculinity/feminity.. /doubt here. Japan has a long history of crossdressing, genderbending, and anime has very strong milestone shows dealing exactly with that. It's not as if the most iconic 70s show was Rose of Versailles, or Ranma 1/2 one of the most popular manga and show of the late 80s/early 90s. Ouran High School Host Club anyone? |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
horridhendy said: DoruCatana said: Wasn't the Hays Code adopted in the 90s , becoming enforced only later? Some of OP's exemples are from series made/who started before that...Griffith and Reinhart are from the 80s and Ryo from the notorius Devilman (who inspired Griffith) is from the 70s. I think the AniManga medium had this trope, at least to an extent, way before the Hays Code... The Hays Code was in place from 1934 to 1968. So, it wasn't adopted in the 90s. It was my mistake, I was remembering wrong. But then, it's even more later.... Which means that even more villains had fallen under this trope before the Hays Code in the AniManga medium... |
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DoruCatana said: It was my mistake, I was remembering wrong. But then, it's even more later.... Which means that even more villains had fallen under this trope before the Hays Code in the AniManga medium... I think you misread what I wrote. The Hays code was way before most anime. The Hays code was between 1934-1968 so before all the examples you provided. |
🔥 🔥 🔥 . 阿良々木 暦, 傷 物 語 . 🔥 🔥 🔥 Build a man a fire and you'll warm him for a night but set a man on fire and you'll warm him for the rest of his life... - H E N D Y - |
| I guess it's an extension of the evil ouji-sama/magistrate kabuki trope - of course it doesn't work if you are trying to portray something more realistic and not over-the-top by design. To see demonstration of this connection check out the kabuki inspired Kyattou Ninden Teyandee (aka Samurai Pizza Cats) and it's robotic okama main villain. |
alshuAug 23, 2021 5:05 AM
horridhendy said: DoruCatana said: It was my mistake, I was remembering wrong. But then, it's even more later.... Which means that even more villains had fallen under this trope before the Hays Code in the AniManga medium... I think you misread what I wrote. The Hays code was way before most anime. The Hays code was between 1934-1968 so before all the examples you provided. Yes, I misread it!....I was in a hurry. It was my mistake...part2!! Thank you for the explanation!! |
DoruCatanaAug 23, 2021 4:33 AM
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DoruCatana said: horridhendy said: I think you misread what I wrote. The Hays code was way before most anime. The Hays code was between 1934-1968 so before all the examples you provided. Yes, I misread it!....I was in a hurry. It was my mistake...part2!! Thank you for the explanation!! Lol. No problem - don't worry about it :) |
🔥 🔥 🔥 . 阿良々木 暦, 傷 物 語 . 🔥 🔥 🔥 Build a man a fire and you'll warm him for a night but set a man on fire and you'll warm him for the rest of his life... - H E N D Y - |
Deathko said: DoruCatana said: Not everything is/needs to be about gender traits in storys... The japanese are not the westeners obssesed with gender roles and aspects of masculinity/feminity.. /doubt here. Japan has a long history of crossdressing, genderbending, and anime has very strong milestone shows dealing exactly with that. It's not as if the most iconic 70s show was Rose of Versailles, or Ranma 1/2 one of the most popular manga and show of the late 80s/early 90s. Ouran High School Host Club anyone? From what I know, the trope with the female character pretending to be a male started with one of Osamu Tezuka's works, Ribbon no Kishi (Princess Knight) which was made with the intent of providing a strong female MC to the medium as a mean to promote equality between genders...at that time, having a very healthy feminist intention... But I still think that refering/recognising/acknowledging...and the worst...characterising and exploring characters mainly through gender traits/roles and their masculinity/femininity is a detriment for the characters and the series. Those things need to have a purpose in the story. I liked Rose of Versailles btw...Shoujo Kakumei Utena is another good series that falls into that category if I you haven't seen it yet... |
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DoruCatana said: Deathko said: /doubt here. Japan has a long history of crossdressing, genderbending, and anime has very strong milestone shows dealing exactly with that. It's not as if the most iconic 70s show was Rose of Versailles, or Ranma 1/2 one of the most popular manga and show of the late 80s/early 90s. Ouran High School Host Club anyone? From what I know, the trope with the female character pretending to be a male started with one of Osamu Tezuka's works, Ribbon no Kishi (Princess Knight) which was made with the intent of providing a strong female MC to the medium as a mean to promote equality between genders...at that time, having a very healthy feminist intention... But I still think that refering/recognising/acknowledging...and the worst...characterising and exploring characters mainly through gender traits/roles and their masculinity/femininity is a detriment for the characters and the series. Those things need to have a purpose in the story. I liked Rose of Versailles btw...Shoujo Kakumei Utena is another good series that falls into that category if I you haven't seen it yet... Definitely agree. Utena is at the top of my favs (^: (alongside Kill la Kill, which shared many similarities IMO) |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
DoruCatana said: Deathko said: /doubt here. Japan has a long history of crossdressing, genderbending, and anime has very strong milestone shows dealing exactly with that. It's not as if the most iconic 70s show was Rose of Versailles, or Ranma 1/2 one of the most popular manga and show of the late 80s/early 90s. Ouran High School Host Club anyone? From what I know, the trope with the female character pretending to be a male started with one of Osamu Tezuka's works, Ribbon no Kishi (Princess Knight) which was made with the intent of providing a strong female MC to the medium as a mean to promote equality between genders...at that time, having a very healthy feminist intention... But I still think that refering/recognising/acknowledging...and the worst...characterising and exploring characters mainly through gender traits/roles and their masculinity/femininity is a detriment for the characters and the series. Those things need to have a purpose in the story. I liked Rose of Versailles btw...Shoujo Kakumei Utena is another good series that falls into that category if I you haven't seen it yet... I don't they actually imply Princess Knight is half-male and half-female with the half blue heart and half-pink heart or whatever it was? |
GreenPlatinum said: DoruCatana said: From what I know, the trope with the female character pretending to be a male started with one of Osamu Tezuka's works, Ribbon no Kishi (Princess Knight) which was made with the intent of providing a strong female MC to the medium as a mean to promote equality between genders...at that time, having a very healthy feminist intention... But I still think that refering/recognising/acknowledging...and the worst...characterising and exploring characters mainly through gender traits/roles and their masculinity/femininity is a detriment for the characters and the series. Those things need to have a purpose in the story. I liked Rose of Versailles btw...Shoujo Kakumei Utena is another good series that falls into that category if I you haven't seen it yet... I don't they actually imply Princess Knight is half-male and half-female with the half blue heart and half-pink heart or whatever it was? Well...that I don't know, I'm not familiar with the lore of the story but I think I heard something like this about her heart. I only know for sure that this was the origin of the trope... |
|
Auron_ said: I've noticed a trend of anime placing the traditionally masculine characters—both in character and appearance—on the side of "good and virtuous", whereas characters with traits associated more with women (being mild-mannered, less direct, pretty & boyish looking, elegant & graceful etc.) are instead placed in the evil role or at the very least morally greyer than the aforementioned hero, whether it be by scheming behind the scenes, believing ends justify the means, or just being more willing to dirty their hands for their convictions. Examples would include Guts v. Griffith, Yang v. Reinhard, Kōgami v. Makishima, Tenma v. Johan, Hak v Soo-won or even a bit more subtly Naruto v. Sasuke. Do you think this reflects some sort of bias on part of the creators, or do you think it to be harmless? Is there any other examples you can think of? Has it somewhat subsided through time as the examples I gave were all relatively old works? Can you think of a counter-example that subverts this (of course in the case of main characters)? So on so forth. That's always been a thing in media, primarily due to the fact that until recently male effeminacy and other LGBTQ-adjacent elements were considered unacceptable. In the west, we had the Hays Code, which only permitted such elements if they were explicitly shown to be immoral and duly punished, hence resulting in such traits being given only to the villains of the work. I'd recommend looking at this video, which goes more in depth into the subject. |
| Well I for one already loved Lain. |
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