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| THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE. ---------------------------------------- Mod edit: Link removed. Do not post direct links to episodes. Also please don't start threads without at least adding an opinion or something, now this OP is just this edit. |
AsakoNov 12, 2009 6:10 PM
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| This episode was okay One thing I really didn't like was how they did that one scene with Rosa and Maria. In the VN, Rosa slapped Maria for picking up that paper and she didn't apologize until she read a letter from Maria that said "Let's share our happiness" Anyway, Sakutarou is super cute in the anime. Mammon's voice is good. And they mentioned Witch Hunt :D |
| This episode was pretty slow with not much happening. I'm sure many will find it boring. But that's okay. That's how most people felt while reading the first half of EP4. The Lambda scene at the end could have been handled a lot better. She doesn't seem threatening at all in the anime and no miragecoordinator. |
| It was interesting but it only gave me some background info on Maria and Virgilia/Beatrice deal. Another interesting deal was Mammon/Ange but why was Mammon in Ange's dorm with that lady inspecting the girls? Other questions would be why did Virgilia/Beatrice sign the diary of Maria and made her into a witch not to mention made Sakutaru (that teddy bear) into a human form. What was up with the Stakes of Purgatory being all cute around that teddy bear in human form? Another thing is why would they sell these messages in bottles? They did auction them did they? At least I know that these Ange's hair things were a present from Battler from how I understood it. Also Lambdadelta's little deal is a Trap! I am sure because of that smile! Did you see Lambdelta's smirk=> Also what is the point of this and also that rock/paper/scissor thing? Is this Umineko or a cute anime? |
francismeunierNov 11, 2009 3:20 PM
 In spoiler my anime list for now. |
| Mammon is around Ange because the power of her MAGIC lets her have a friend nearby. But only she can see her hence the ghostly appearance. Both Beatrice's made Maria a witch because they recognized her power to create 1 from 0. (An ability that surpasses what they can do. They can only create from 1) Also they like her and wanted her to a part of their society. Yes. They held an auction for the message in the bottle that was sent at the end of EP1. The Rokkenjima incident became famous. Rock, paper, scissors is a common game played in anime to decide who goes first or wins. |
| I agree the lambda scene could have been handled better. But also, I know in the VN it didn't really show a background during the scenes with Maria and Ange or Ange and the stakes, but I didn't like the white and black backgrounds. I feel they could have done something more creative. |
GarLogan78 said: I agree the lambda scene could have been handled better. But also, I know in the VN it didn't really show a background during the scenes with Maria and Ange or Ange and the stakes, but I didn't like the white and black backgrounds. I feel they could have done something more creative. Someone please point out with the youtube stuff that scene and why it is better in the VN. MarthX said: Mammon is around Ange because the power of her MAGIC lets her have a friend nearby. But only she can see her hence the ghostly appearance. Ok, I see but won't Mammon betray Ange and can hurt her? MarthX said: Both Beatrice's made Maria a witch because they recognized her power to create 1 from 0. (An ability that surpasses what they can do. They can only create from 1) Also they like her and wanted her to a part of their society. Power to create 1 from 0 means something that is not human into human? Right? MarthX said: Yes. They held an auction for the message in the bottle that was sent at the end of EP1. The Rokkenjima incident became famous. Should not these bottles be with the family since it belongs to them instead of a auction of them? MarthX said: Rock, paper, scissors is a common game played in anime to decide who goes first or wins. Ok but I don't think it fit right in this series except if the family plays it to decide who goes first. |
francismeunierNov 11, 2009 9:35 PM
In spoiler my anime list for now. |
francismeunier said: Ok, I see but won't Mammon betray Ange and can hurt her? Ange is the last beatrice in 1998. This was done when Eva passed the succession onto her and Bernkastel approved her. When Ange was able to summon Mammon and the others with the help of MARIA, they became her furniture/friends. francismeunier said: Power to create 1 from 0 means something that is not human into human? Right? It means creating something out of nothing. It was said in the visual novel that MARIA could reach the point of even creating universes. |
Drkness19Nov 11, 2009 10:39 PM
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francismeunier said: Ok, I see but won't Mammon betray Ange and can hurt her? Drkness19 said: Ange is the last beatrice in 1998. This was done when Eva passed the succession onto her and Bernkastel approved her. When Ange was able to summon Mammon and the others with the help of MARIA, they became her furniture/friends. Ok, now it makes sense. So Ange inherited all the powers of Eva-Beatrice. You can say you light a bulb in my head on this one. Can Ange be as strong as Eva-Beatrice is a good question or can she even surpass her. francismeunier said: Power to create 1 from 0 means something that is not human into human? Right? Drkness19 said: It means creating something out of nothing. It was said in the visual novel that MARIA could reach the point of even creating universes. Really? Impressive so Maria could even created what Bernkastel did in Higurashi? Can Maria be as strong as Bernkastel even? If so then Maria can truly be among the witches with her title. I would call her personally Maria the witch of sweet things or maybe of kindness would be nice. What do you think? |
In spoiler my anime list for now. |
francismeunier said: Ok, now it makes sense. So Ange inherited all the powers of Eva-Beatrice. You can say you light a bulb in my head on this one. Can Ange be as strong as Eva-Beatrice is a good question or can she even surpass her. Ange just inherited the title of Ushiromiya family head and beatrice title in general from Eva. She didn't receive it from Eva-Beatrice. francismeunier said: Really? Impressive so Maria could even created what Bernkastel did in Higurashi? Can Maria be as strong as Bernkastel even? If so then Maria can truly be among the witches with her title. I would call her personally Maria the witch of sweet things or maybe of kindness would be nice. What do you think? Bernkastel isn't a creator like MARIA is. She is the witch of miracles. If we assume Higurashi was the game Bern was playing against Lambda, Bern wasn't creating the other worlds. She was just giving Rika a chance again and again. I think it was said in the VN that MARIA would be even more powerful than Bern and Lambda when reaching the top. And in case you are wondering, MARIA in caps is her witch name. |
| |
Drkness19 said: Ange just inherited the title of Ushiromiya family head and beatrice title in general from Eva. She didn't receive it from Eva-Beatrice. Ok, yeah I understand. So where does her magic powers come from then? Natural skill? Drkness19 said: I though Rika was Bernkastel herself in this whole game that even Lambdadelta made it so to make it a challenge of survival? Rika many times admited that she is Bernkastel when she was Rika. I just finished it so I would know but it is more clearer still Bernkastel with Miracle as a power can create by herself, I assume that because miracle power has the possible at infinite. Think of it as God/miracles all is possible, you know?Bernkastel isn't a creator like MARIA is. She is the witch of miracles. If we assume Higurashi was the game Bern was playing against Lambda, Bern wasn't creating the other worlds. She was just giving Rika a chance again and again. |
In spoiler my anime list for now. |
| So we get a look into Ange's little magic practices. Her powers still seem slightly amateurish compared to Beatrice and co., but I guess she's slowly on her way to becoming a powerful witch. The hair ties seem to hold what I'm assuming is most of Ange's hidden and untapped power due to her strong conviction to save Battler. So from the two bottles found in the ocean around Rokkenjima, they were supposedly signed by one "Maria Ushiromiya", but the handwriting is different and both bottles contained a different set of ordered events. Then who really wrote the messages? And do we really need a shota? Seriously? |
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Also like the others said lambdadelta's revelation in the anime is infinitely inferior to the one in the novel due to lack of miragecoordinator. =_= overall this episode barely gets a passing grade from me |
Darklight0303Nov 12, 2009 1:47 AM
| hmmm I hope so though the way she narrated it makes me doubt that since she pretty much summed up that event =_= either way it was a bad move someone asked for the Lamba revelation scene right well here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f23_Yah2zw0 part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-m2kLIeWxc part 2 can't get the tags to work for some reason =_= |
Darklight0303Nov 12, 2009 1:56 AM
| this is starting to confuse but i think i get the picture.. and specially because of all the posts that were made in this thread.. |
| Same i don't play the VN... Mirage Coordinator Yes, it's a good music, i confirm... But in a anime... I'm not sure that can be used. |
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| It is overpowering. The VN music wasn't designed to go with voice overs... |
MarthX said: It is overpowering. The VN music wasn't designed to go with voice overs... That didn't stop them from using worldenddominator even if it was a bit remixed >_> |
Darklight0303 said: hmmm I hope so though the way she narrated it makes me doubt that since she pretty much summed up that event =_= either way it was a bad move someone asked for the Lamba revelation scene right well here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f23_Yah2zw0 part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-m2kLIeWxc part 2 can't get the tags to work for some reason =_= Thanks a lot but if all this is true then Ange is not Ange but furniture? Is it really true Bern lied? Or is it that Lambdadelta lied for her benefit? I though that Ange would return to her own time after the game ends and her family would be there. So confusing on if Lambdadelta is deceiving or not. She spoke with logic but that smirk in this episode says all is a lie. So which is it. BTW the music in the VN is great! Mirage coordinator owns! Listening to it now directly as mp3. Just big amazing! |
francismeunierNov 12, 2009 3:20 AM
In spoiler my anime list for now. |
Darklight0303 said: Do you really want to hear miragecoordinator used for barely a few seconds in the anime? Sure, they can remix it but it wont exactly have much time to get to the good parts.MarthX said: It is overpowering. The VN music wasn't designed to go with voice overs... That didn't stop them from using worldenddominator even if it was a bit remixed >_> EDIT: You know what, scratch what I said. I just watched that scene again with miragecoordinator playing. If it plays the moment Lambda appears, it lasts fairly long enough to be quite awesome. Its a nice alternative, but certainly a bit empowering for the anime media. Whatever, I'm glad they're fast forwarding these potions of the story and made Rosa seem less of a madwoman with her "I told you not to touch it!" reaction during the receipt scene by downplaying her anger. Maria's finally being portrayed as her true innocent, lovable side instead of shifting between a gremlin and a ghoul in previous arcs. I hope they would elaborate on one of the scene briefly mentioned next week. |
KantarouNov 12, 2009 3:12 AM
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francismeunier said: Thanks a lot but if all this is true then Ange is not Ange but furniture? Is it really true Bern lied? Or is it that Lambdadelta lied for her benefit? I though that Ange would return to her own time after the game ends and her family would be there. So confusing on if Lambdadelta is deceiving or not. She spoke with logic but that smirk in this episode says all is a lie. So which is it. BTW the music in the VN is great! Mirage coordinator owns! Listening to it now directly as mp3. Just big amazing! Technically no one lied. Bern told Ange that she might be able to save her family. However she never went into all the details. plus you have to look at it this way. The world where Ange was formed is a world without the family. So if that event never happens then ANGE will never end up miserable nor become a witch. see the paradox? All Lambda did was give the full harsh story About Ange being furniture and a piece. Well look at EVA Beatrice. She was also a piece and in a way diferent from eva herself. The same goes for ANGE Beatrice. |
francismeunier said: Thanks a lot but if all this is true then Ange is not Ange but furniture? Is it really true Bern lied? Or is it that Lambdadelta lied for her benefit? I though that Ange would return to her own time after the game ends and her family would be there. So confusing on if Lambdadelta is deceiving or not. She spoke with logic but that smirk in this episode says all is a lie. So which is it. BTW the music in the VN is great! Mirage coordinator owns! Listening to it now directly as mp3. Just big amazing! The anime isn't text-based like the game so it can't be as clear as the game in this matter. In the game we are showed the difference between ANGE and Ange. Ange is human, while ANGE isn't. She is a being created in the meta-world who has the appearance and memory of Ange. Just like Meta-Battler and Human/Piece-Battler. |
| For the last time, that scene happens in "My World" which hasn't started yet. This episode ended a chapter before then. Stop jumping to conclusions. It's been a while since I've fully read those chapters. I don't remember if Ange talks about that event before you see it. If she does then the anime isn't at fault. |
4saken_762 said: francismeunier said: Thanks a lot but if all this is true then Ange is not Ange but furniture? Is it really true Bern lied? Or is it that Lambdadelta lied for her benefit? I though that Ange would return to her own time after the game ends and her family would be there. So confusing on if Lambdadelta is deceiving or not. She spoke with logic but that smirk in this episode says all is a lie. So which is it. BTW the music in the VN is great! Mirage coordinator owns! Listening to it now directly as mp3. Just big amazing! The anime isn't text-based like the game so it can't be as clear as the game in this matter. In the game we are showed the difference between ANGE and Ange. Ange is human, while ANGE isn't. She is a being created in the meta-world who has the appearance and memory of Ange. Just like Meta-Battler and Human/Piece-Battler. So I am to suppose Bernkastel created her or Ange made herself with her magic powers with some will power to save Battler or Bernkastel helped her do that? |
In spoiler my anime list for now. |
francismeunier said:  JUST AS PLANNED! Jeez, Maria was such a loli this episode. That dress was a little much. And of course we needed a shota. I mean, if they had a teenager/adult serving a little girl, that would look a little weird XD |
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| As usual, ultra fast pacing. I'm pretty sad that the most emotional scene in ep 4 didn't fully shown (When Ange bullied and destroyed the 7 stakes). Maria is so adorable in this episode... |
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| That was over a bit fast... personally i wouldnt mind if we can get some more deatils, or maybe i might check out some of the vn after this season is over. I think the amazing thing about this show is that people can understand 2 different stories from the same show, it is totally depended on how you want to see it. That said, I think this episode clearly, once again, suggests Rosa as the culprit and she wrote those 2 bottle messages. but at this point, after being trolled a few times I wouldnt really count on what the show suggests me anymore~ if i make a suspects list now base on each characters suspicious level up to this point, I'd say: 1.Rosa, 2.Genji, 3.Kanon 4.Shanon, 5.Nanjo 6.Maria 7.Jessica 8.Kumosawa / Gohda 9.(Kinzo) 10. With George, Kyrie, Natsuhi, Eva, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Krauss and Battler basically on the more or less innocent side. |
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vinesage said: That said, I think this episode clearly, once again, suggests Rosa as the culprit and she wrote those 2 bottle messages. but at this point, after being trolled a few times I wouldnt really count on what the show suggests me anymore~ Actually no it does not. The guy Ange was talking to was SHOCKED when she showed him the book since the writing that was NOT Maria's matched the one on the messages in the bottle though I guess that is more obvious in the novel >_> |
Darklight0303 said: erhmm, i thought that was the place where it clearly suggests Rosa in this episode, ....no? rosa wrote on marias diary and the message bottle or do you think different?vinesage said: That said, I think this episode clearly, once again, suggests Rosa as the culprit and she wrote those 2 bottle messages. but at this point, after being trolled a few times I wouldnt really count on what the show suggests me anymore~ Actually no it does not. The guy Ange was talking to was SHOCKED when she showed him the book since the writing that was NOT Maria's matched the one on the messages in the bottle though I guess that is more obvious in the novel >_> |
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| The person who wrote in Maria's diary and the message bottle was Beatrice. We still don't know if Beatrice is her own person or if someone is just pretending to be her but I'm pretty sure it's not Rosa. Rosa hates it when Maria talks about witches and magic so why would she write something like that in her diary? |
| Rosa? Write in a diary filled with witchcraft and the occult? I highly doubt she would especially with how much that hobby of Maria's annoyed her |
| kinda boring.. I am not sure do I like this new part at all |
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| Wow, I can't believe I really enjoyed this episode. Not a lot happened, but I really loved it. And all of you guys talking bout Lamba not being all threatening... I think DEEN did a great job with that scene, and Lamba was threatening, in a weird kinda way. This is actually one of my favorite episodes. |
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Evucis said: kinda boring.. I am not sure do I like this new part at all Don't worry. the next episode is the last of the Ange/Maria flashbacks. It should go back to Rokkenjima in the next episode too |
hirahira said: Beatrice? erhm, I thought you were one of then Vn readers who dont believe magic? :DThe person who wrote in Maria's diary and the message bottle was Beatrice. We still don't know if Beatrice is her own person or if someone is just pretending to be her but I'm pretty sure it's not Rosa. Rosa hates it when Maria talks about witches and magic so why would she write something like that in her diary? Well, i dont know if Rosa really hates it when maria talking about magic stuffs, or the slight hint on her split personality has anything to do with it, but thats exactly what the show suggests me to see. Someody wrote on marias diary, the handwriting matches those of the message bottles, so it is saying the one who write on the diary was on the island during the murder. With the 18 people we already know, I wouldnt see it any other way than the show is suggesting me Rosa writing on Maria's diary previously, for whatever reason it might be. Ofcourse it can be one of family members too, but we dont know how often they meet each other expect the 6 year meeting on the island, so I wouldnt think too much into that. Well, theres also the possibility like suggested in last ep, that Kinzo was dead before the murders and therefore he is not counted in the 18 people on the island but someone unknown was there. (but i doubt it) |
vinesageNov 12, 2009 10:25 AM
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Darklight0303 said: ps: like someone argued with me earlier, that i shouldnt dismiss the possibility just because I am not aware of the reason. I think even though I might not be completely sure now why Rosa would write on maria's diary about magic stuff, but I think it is the most possible option up to this point, no? :-)Rosa? Write in a diary filled with witchcraft and the occult? I highly doubt she would especially with how much that hobby of Maria's annoyed her |
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| Just because magic may not exist (I think it does exist in a way. It's kind of hard to explain though) doesn't mean that a person called Beatrice doesn't exist. Maria meets someone called Beatrice on the island every year. And that's the person who wrote in her diary. If Rosa ever saw that diary, she would probably tear it apart |
hirahira said: If Rosa ever saw that diary, she would probably tear it apart |
hirahira said: I thought it was mentioned in the very first ep that maria and the rest were on the island the last time when maria was 3, no? Or she went there alone each year? if so, I cant remember if the anime ever emtioned that anymore.Just because magic may not exist (I think it does exist in a way. It's kind of hard to explain though) doesn't mean that a person called Beatrice doesn't exist. Maria meets someone called Beatrice on the island every year. And that's the person who wrote in her diary. If Rosa ever saw that diary, she would probably tear it apart And I do very very well believe all the witch things, well, they are just not in the same universe for me, or however you like to explain it. :-) ps: and bout rosa tearing up stuffs: at least we saw rosa once gave maria that halloween lollipop, only to trump it into pieces with all her strength a while later....wouldnt that possibly apply to all other things maria has? |
vinesageNov 12, 2009 10:45 AM
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vinesage said: hirahira said: I thought it was mentioned in the very first ep that maria and the rest were on the island the last time when maria was 3, no? Or she went there alone each year? if so, I cant remember if the anime ever emtioned that anymore.Just because magic may not exist (I think it does exist in a way. It's kind of hard to explain though) doesn't mean that a person called Beatrice doesn't exist. Maria meets someone called Beatrice on the island every year. And that's the person who wrote in her diary. If Rosa ever saw that diary, she would probably tear it apart And I do very very well believe all the witch things, well, they are just not in the same universe for me, or however you like to explain it. :-) Maria went to every family reunion. It was battler who was last present when Maria was only three. |
Darklight0303 said: ah ok, that certainly raises the possibility of her other family members~ but Rosa is nevertheless still the most suspicious one, or not? :-)Maria went to every family reunion. It was battler who was last present when Maria was only three. |
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| It could have been Shannon. |
hirahira said: well, wouldnt that applies to anyone else of those 18 people on the island? or even somebody still unknown if kinzo was really dead (still cant really believe that though)? Or do you have certain base for that?It could have been Shannon. |
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| I'll wait until the anime is over to explain the Shannontrice theory. Personally, I hate that theory and I really hope it's not true but it does seem like there's a lot to support it. |
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