| I've seen this statement a lot from Type-Boomers how FGO is ruining the franchise because of all the retcons, rule and lore breaking it does. It's no secret that the early days of FGO were terrible and everyone already accepted that. However, I think it has definitely gotten better since Camelot. Aside from putting out 1-dimensional servants and genderbending historical figures for no reason from time to time, we all know they gotta sell those png files to keep the franchise alive, how exactly does FGO ruin Fate or Nasuverse in terms of lore? I think the boomers are just salty Type-Moon is all about FGO now. |
| I don't think 60 years old people watch or even play FGO. |
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| Screen capping this so I can prove you wrong in the future... |
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| "Retcon" is intended in a totally negative "they changed things!!!!" way nowadays, but the term doesn't mean only that and in fact FGO has some retcons but in the true sense of the term, not what detractors says. And also no, it doesn't break lore and it doesn't ruin Fate or the Nasuverse as a whole. Don't listen to those people, you literally can't reason with them. I knew some hardcore FGO-haters and they don't want to discuss: they are just right and you are just wrong and you should feel ashamed for playing and enjoying FGO. It's only a toxic part of the community, ignore it. |
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| There are basically two factions involved in this. 1. The other Type-Moon fans who don't like the fact that FGO or Fate in general is essentially the main focus now and everything else is taking a backseat. Can't blame them when Tsukihime literally got shafted for years and we get a bunch of Fate games, anime and other materials in between the recent announcement. I want Carnival Phantasm season 2 too but that would only be filled with Fate jokes :') 2. The FSN purists who can't accept the fact that Fate has become what it is now. Anyway I always welcome discussions regarding Fate because it's fun and engaging to me so I'll throw in some from the top of my head... 1. The infamous "I can only be summoned as a Saber class" criticism which honestly doesn't make sense to me because all other classes of Artoria are meme/event servants that shouldn't be taken seriously. Only Goddess Rhongomyniad breaks this but at least it actually makes sense since Camelot/FGO is an alternate timeline to FSN. 2. I think they also changed Berserkers in a way. There are a lot of Berserkers in FGO that don't seem to have lost their sanity but instead are just some angry people holding grudges for eternity though you can pretty much reason that out to Madness Enhancement parameters. Otherwise, every Berserker would just be growling/roaring servants. 3. IIRC it was also mentioned in FSN that only the Hassans can be summoned as Assassins and yet here we are... Kojiro has been established as an exception by the way. 4. FGO is also very and I mean VERY vague, I mean this in nicest way possible even though I'm very frustrated with it lol, with how servants' memories work. There have been multiple instances where servants seem to remember things even though they already went back to the Throne of Heroes. 5. There's also the fact that Nasuverse works in a multiverse concept so inconsistencies are bound to arise like how Archer Emiya is soooo different from his FSN counterpart. 6. I think there's also the stuff about pseudo-servants where humans supposedly cannot withstand being possessed by gods and stuff and yet here we are... Honestly, with how expansive Nasuverse is it was only a matter of time before they started retconning/changing stuff to fit in into FGO easier. Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
DeadlyRavenFeb 24, 2020 12:10 AM
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| If someone dislikes FGO, let them be. "type boomer" lmaoooooo |
| From what I see around, there are two things: 1. Nasu constantly recycles concepts he introduces in his non-professional works and gives it new meanings and contexts (like Land Steel) which causes a knee-jerk reaction of HE RETCONED IT. He simply didn't establish it in his professional works. He loves reusing names too (There's a mysterious benevolent figure called "Dr. Roman" in DDD too). Very similar to this, he often has some ideas he talks about in interviews he leaves incomplete or vague that the fandom develops some stern and strict "canon" from those statements without realizing he's just informally sharing some potential future ideas, nothing set on stone yet. That's why he's free to change those in the future. Also because he keeps things ambiguous for years, the fandom (english one in particular) has developed their own fanon they consider the only valid explanation usually held as gospel and when he introduces new info that contradicts the fanon they built, they would complain he retcon it. They also take many of his jokes seriously, or his attempts of humor as serious lore or what not. When Nasu loves parody and doesn't let it influence his main storylines. They exist as an extra spice which can be enjoyed if you're a fan. 2. Nasu sometimes retcons and changes things. That isn't just with FGO. FSN timeline changed in the past, afaik. Merlin had 3 VAs until Nasu thought the 'definite' version of him, for example. Berserker Class no longer works as it used to do, but that's since Apocrypha, not FGO. I'm not talking about the Berserkers who can talk only, but that monstrous and gaunt features consequence of Mad Enhancement is gone. Because the characters are more profitable if they look attractive. |
ThessFeb 14, 2020 9:03 PM
Dull_Lull said: Anyway I always welcome discussions regarding Fate because it's fun and engaging to me so I'll throw in some from the top of my head... 1. The infamous "I can only be summoned as a Saber class" criticism which honestly doesn't make sense to me because all other classes of Artoria are meme/event servants that shouldn't be taken seriously. Only Goddess Rhongomyniad breaks this but at least it actually makes sense since Camelot/FGO is an alternate timeline to FSN. 2. I think they also changed Berserkers in a way. There are a lot of Berserkers in FGO that don't seem to have lost their sanity but instead are just some angry people holding grudges for eternity though you can pretty much reason that out to Madness Enhancement parameters. Otherwise, every Berserker would just be growling/roaring servants. 3. IIRC it was also mentioned in FSN that only the Hassans can be summoned as Assassins and yet here we are... Kojiro has been established as an exception by the way. 4. FGO is also very and I mean VERY vague, I mean this in nicest way possible even though I'm very frustrated with it lol, with how servants' memories work. There have been multiple instances where servants seem to remember things even though they already went back to the Throne of Heroes. 5. There's also the fact that Nasuverse works in a multiverse concept so inconsistencies are bound to arise like how Archer Emiya is soooo different from his FSN counterpart. 6. I think there's also the stuff about pseudo-servants where humans supposedly cannot withstand being possessed by gods and stuff and yet here we are... Honestly, with how expansive Nasuverse is it was only a matter of time before they started retconning/changing stuff to fit in into FGO easier. 1.That's just a LIVING Saber talking tho. So it doesnt mean anything. And yes basically only her Lancer versions are not joke material. Archer is just Scathach messing with her Saint Graph. 2. That's since Apocrypha.And Zero if we count Lancelot who was fine if Artoria wasnt around. 3.Apocrypha changed that long before FGO and the limitation was only on the ritual the 3 families created. 4.Only Servants summoned with the Fuyuki ritual cant have access to other memories. The Throne does keep a record of the new memories. EMIYA is a good example of middle ground.As a CG he makes new memories and the Throne obviously lets him keep them, that's including when he is summoned in Fuyuki. 5.Only reason FSN Archer is so moody is because he is summoned in his time and faced with his younger self. Plus, that EMIYA has access to his UBW development no matter how vague that is. 6.But mythology is full of human being possessed by gods. It makes no sense that being the case in Nasuverse. Maybe you mean full power of a god destroying a human, which makes sense and answers why pseudo servants are so much weaker. |
| > Also because he keeps things ambiguous for years, the fandom (english one in particular) has developed their own fanon they consider the only valid explanation usually held as gospel and when he introduces new info that contradicts the fanon they built, they would complain he retcon it. They also take many of his jokes seriously, or his attempts of humor as serious lore or what not. When Nasu loves parody and doesn't let it influence his main storylines. They exist as an extra spice which can be enjoyed if you're a fan. this tbh but yea ,there ARE a few retcons but theyre either 1. not exlcusive to fgo and other series did it before fgo anyways hassan being broken in apo and extra long before fgo OR stuff that should be retcon because they werent a good idea for long term like berserkers not being what they are anymore cause it was honestly a miracle herc was even popular and they probably cant replicate that amt of sucess if they kept it for other servants 2. its not retcon , but rather that trope where you establish a rule and break it, cept in these ppl's dumb head, thats retcon or plotholes and these are probably the same ppl who meme that one line in jojo where kakoyin says no one can deflect the emerald splash is a plothole so Dull_Lull said: Anyway I always welcome discussions regarding Fate because it's fun and engaging to me so I'll throw in some from the top of my head... 1. The infamous "I can only be summoned as a Saber class" criticism which honestly doesn't make sense to me because all other classes of Artoria are meme/event servants that shouldn't be taken seriously. Only Goddess Rhongomyniad breaks this but at least it actually makes sense since Camelot/FGO is an alternate timeline to FSN. 2. I think they also changed Berserkers in a way. There are a lot of Berserkers in FGO that don't seem to have lost their sanity but instead are just some angry people holding grudges for eternity though you can pretty much reason that out to Madness Enhancement parameters. Otherwise, every Berserker would just be growling/roaring servants. 3. IIRC it was also mentioned in FSN that only the Hassans can be summoned as Assassins and yet here we are... Kojiro has been established as an exception by the way. 4. FGO is also very and I mean VERY vague, I mean this in nicest way possible even though I'm very frustrated with it lol, with how servants' memories work. There have been multiple instances where servants seem to remember things even though they already went back to the Throne of Heroes. 5. There's also the fact that Nasuverse works in a multiverse concept so inconsistencies are bound to arise like how Archer Emiya is soooo different from his FSN counterpart. 6. I think there's also the stuff about pseudo-servants where humans supposedly cannot withstand being possessed by gods and stuff and yet here we are... Honestly, with how expansive Nasuverse is it was only a matter of time before they started retconning/changing stuff to fit in into FGO easier. 1. mean even meme event aside, FSN also literally straight up says artoria has a whole treasure of NPs tat she uses, it makes zero sense for her to only be summoned as a saber class anyways and she qualifies for every class beside caster anyways(in the non gag sense, she qualifies for archer and assassin yes) |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
| Type-boomer hahaha They just can't handle that their DEEP and PHILOSOPHICAL masterpiece of writing that is the Nasuverse is having so much success with tits & ass fanserivce (while still putting out great stories, once every 6 months but still). Hating FGO because it 'breaks the rules' is pretty retarded in the first place considering breaking the rules and the Nasuverse are synonymous. |
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Mirai said: Type-boomer hahaha They just can't handle that their DEEP and PHILOSOPHICAL masterpiece of writing that is the Nasuverse is having so much success with tits & ass fanserivce (while still putting out great stories, once every 6 months but still). Hating FGO because it 'breaks the rules' is pretty retarded in the first place considering breaking the rules and the Nasuverse are synonymous. I don't think 'Type-Boomer' is a real thing, they just don't know shit about this universe if some people really think FGO is breaking the lore. There's some stuff that comes way back from Tsukihime or even Notes in FGO. The lore hasn't been broken a single time to begin with, if wanting to rewrite the The Twenty-seven Dead Apostle Ancestors list is synonymous with breaking the rules. Then I guess it's true in some way. |
VncriticalFeb 23, 2020 10:03 AM
deg said: who cares since FGO is like an isekai or alternate universe anyway so it can make a lot of different rules from the original universe/timeline How the fuck is it an isekai. People who have no idea how anything work shouldnt say random stuff. |
deg said: ssjokg said: How the fuck is it an isekai. People who have no idea how anything work shouldnt say random stuff. isekai means alternate universe thats it Isekai is a world with different mechanics. A world where people can use magic easily compared to the original world of the MC. Different world map, different gods, different races etc. Every Fate, KnK, Tsukihime has the same system, happening in the same world, with the same races. Divergence in history doesnt make an isekai. |
deg said: ssjokg said: Isekai is a world with different mechanics. A world where people can use magic easily compared to the original world of the MC. Different world map, different gods, different races etc. Every Fate, KnK, Tsukihime has the same system, happening in the same world, with the same races. Divergence in history doesnt make an isekai. as you already know im not that very knowlegeable about the Fate franchise thats why my comment is basically rationalizing the OP claims that FGO is a different timeline/history or different reality/universe, is this wrong? does Fate Stay Night share the same timeline or universe as FGO? isekai is alternate universe in a literal meaning Let me ask you this. Is Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works an isekai to Fate/Stay Night Heaven's Feel? No. Different timeline due to different choices at the start of the story. FGO or any other story from Type Moon is the same. And you cant have an isekai without an MC travelling between worlds. And time travel, which is what FGO is basically using, isnt isekai. |
| We can't use the literal meaning for the word "isekai" how we would like anymore When talking about genres of fiction in anime, "isekai" is now strongly identified with a certain set of tropes and characteristics. We can joke that FGO is an isekai, but using that word seriously will only complicate things imho |
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deg said: ye i say its an isekai and i just use the literal meaning of the word isekai here which is alternate unvierse/reality/history/world/etc The term isekai in Typemoon context is not as simple as you think, so uh, don't use it cuz it can cause confusions. Alt timelines/worlds in the series are grouped into different types. I am going by this article on the JP wiki, specifically the 並行世界と異世界 (heikou sekai and isekai): https://typemoon.wiki.cre.jp/wiki/%E4%B8%A6%E8%A1%8C%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C Timelines that have slight differences due to choices of certain events are grouped into heikou sekai (parallel worlds). These worlds are part of a big "time tree" and governed by the pruning system and quantum time locks. So all worlds belong to one time tree = heikou sekai. Timelines that have setting so different from the rest are isekais, they belong to a different time tree entirely. In this category, Prototype and Extra are isekais when you use FSN as the base point. The 3 routes from Extra, Extella are all heikou sekai to Extra time tree but isekais to the time tree that FSN and FGO is part of. In the case of FGO, it is implied that FGO is from the same time tree as FZ and FSN, so it is a heikou sekai to FSN. |
deg said: first time i heard of heikou sekai term but again im using the isekai word literally and loosely here you people focus too much on the isekai comment i made disregarding the "or alternate universe" that i mentioned too I did not disregard anything you said. I am explaining to you that there is a more appropriate term in-universe and you should consider that in the future to not cause confusions. Your original comment was that FGO can make up rules cuz isekai, which would be absolutely true in the context of what the term is used in-universe. But in-universe, FGO isn't an isekai - a world so different from FSN like Extra is, so majority of its rules will and must follow the general of the time tree it is part of. This means it cannot deviate too far from the existing rules or make up new rules out of nowhere like you thought. |
LeonmitchelliGD said: deg said: ye i say its an isekai and i just use the literal meaning of the word isekai here which is alternate unvierse/reality/history/world/etc The term isekai in Typemoon context is not as simple as you think, so uh, don't use it cuz it can cause confusions. Alt timelines/worlds in the series are grouped into different types. I am going by this article on the JP wiki, specifically the 並行世界と異世界 (heikou sekai and isekai): https://typemoon.wiki.cre.jp/wiki/%E4%B8%A6%E8%A1%8C%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C Timelines that have slight differences due to choices of certain events are grouped into heikou sekai (parallel worlds). These worlds are part of a big "time tree" and governed by the pruning system and quantum time locks. So all worlds belong to one time tree = heikou sekai. Timelines that have setting so different from the rest are isekais, they belong to a different time tree entirely. In this category, Prototype and Extra are isekais when you use FSN as the base point. The 3 routes from Extra, Extella are all heikou sekai to Extra time tree but isekais to the time tree that FSN and FGO is part of. In the case of FGO, it is implied that FGO is from the same time tree as FZ and FSN, so it is a heikou sekai to FSN. Extra and Prototype are from the same time tree as well and just like FGO the divergence just happens way before the 90s. At best you can call the world inside the Moon Cell an Isekai since it is a new VR world with different mechanics than the real world. |
deg said: ok understood im not that totally familiar with FGO anyway as you already know im not that very knowlegeable about the Fate franchise That's why you shouldn't say foolish things without any information. The term Isekai can only be applied to Fate/Extra when we talk about the Moon Cell, but in the real world, there's still some shit going on in this timeline. Like the end of world because of some random ritual which dates back to Tsukihime. LeonmitchelliGD said: In this category, Prototype and Extra are isekais when you use FSN as the base point. Prototype isn't an Iskeai whatsoever, I'm not talking about the Fate/Protoype anime, this show isn't even finished yet. But Fate/Prototype: Fragments of Sky Silver, which is a prequel to this story and the real deal. |
VncriticalFeb 24, 2020 4:46 AM
Vncriticalshit said: Prototype isn't an Iskeai whatsoever, I'm not talking about the Fate/Protoype anime, this show isn't even finished yet. But Fate/Prototype: Fragments of Sky Silver, which is a prequel to this story and the real deal. Arthur profile in FGO: その正体は、何らかの存在を追ってこの世界に辿り着いた異世界の「騎士王」である。(His true identity is an isekai King of Knights who came to this world looking for a certain existence). As Arthur profile literally stated, to FGO world, Prototype is an isekai (]異世界 - otherworld). Again, this is about perspective. If you pick any world within the same group as Prototype to be your ref point, then Prototype is a heikou sekai (並行世界 - parallel world) to that world instead. If you stand in Prototype world then FGO is an Isekai to Prototype. Basically this definition changes constantly for anyone who stands in one world at a time and look into another world. If a world that has its world's foundation "shifted to something different that is should be called a 別世界 (betsusekai - different world) or 異世界 (isekai - otherworld)" compare to w/e world you're using as the ref point, then that world is an isekai to the ref point being used. |
LeonmitchelliGDFeb 23, 2020 9:58 PM
| nasu has a tendency to infodump way more shit than he ever really executes, and i guess there are nerds who memorize every (mirror moon translated) word he writes that get buttmad when he decides that a certain idea he played with is better executed differently than how they once seemed |
Aure0linFeb 24, 2020 2:08 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| Daily reminder that certain things in FGO made people realize that the original fan translation for FSN had some errors impossible to notice without more context (given by FGO) And yet some people hold these translations as gospel. It's easy to see why they think later works "break the lore"... and why they're utterly wrong. |
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LeonmitchelliGD said: Vncriticalshit said: Prototype isn't an Iskeai whatsoever, I'm not talking about the Fate/Protoype anime, this show isn't even finished yet. But Fate/Prototype: Fragments of Sky Silver, which is a prequel to this story and the real deal. Arthur profile in FGO: その正体は、何らかの存在を追ってこの世界に辿り着いた異世界の「騎士王」である。(His true identity is an isekai King of Knights who came to this world looking for a certain existence). As Arthur profile literally stated, to FGO world, Prototype is an isekai (]異世界 - otherworld). Again, this is about perspective. If you pick any world within the same group as Prototype to be your ref point, then Prototype is a heikou sekai (並行世界 - parallel world) to that world instead. If you stand in Prototype world then FGO is an Isekai to Prototype. Basically this definition changes constantly for anyone who stands in one world at a time and look into another world. If a world that has its world's foundation "shifted to something different that is should be called a 別世界 (betsusekai - different world) or 異世界 (isekai - otherworld)" compare to w/e world you're using as the ref point, then that world is an isekai to the ref point being used. Type-Moon universe is all about timelines, Mahoyo, KnK or even Tsukihime can be called an heikou sekai if we go in the sense of your statement. Keep in mind that Parallel World is a specific term in the Nasuverse, it's correct regarding Arthur he comes from a Parallel World. But Prototype is not an Isekai, it's an alternate timeline of our world, we just need to wait the Material for Sky Silver since we still don't know from which era it split off. |
VncriticalFeb 24, 2020 4:39 AM
Vncritical said: Type-Moon universe is all about timelines, Mahoyo, KnK or even Tsukihime can be called an heikou sekai if we go in the sense of your statement. Keep in mind that Parallel World is a specific term in the Nasuverse, it's correct regarding Arthur he comes from a Parallel World. But Prototype is not an Isekai, it's an alternate timeline of our world, we just need to wait the Material for Sky Silver since we still don't know from which era it split off. Again, it is an isekai to FGO. Arthur profile said it clear and precise. Period. I even put it in bold text for you. I'm questioning why you don't see it when it's right in front of your eyes. Yes ofc it is an alternate timeline to other worlds including FGO, duh, who the heck doesn't know that stuff. But Nasu decided that just calling it an alternate timeline is not enough to emphasize how different it is compare to, say, the world of FGO, so several criteria were created to emphasize these differences: 1) If world A and world B shares the same world foundations (rules, majority of history...etc) but have some slight differences, world A is a heikou sekai to world B and vice-versa. 2) If world C and world D had their world foundations differ so much from another due to w/e conditions, world C is an isekai to world D. "I" (異) in isekai (異世界) literally means DIFFERENT. World C is different enough from world D that it can no longer be called heikou (adjacent, parallel, side-by-side) of each other. FGO and prototype have this relationship, as stated by Arthur's profile. He did not just jump from one timeline to another, he jumped from a timeline far remote from FGO. This word play with 異 is also being used for Lostbelts - ibuntai (異聞帯 - literally different history) - alternate timelines that was discarded from even the parallel world system. Yes I am saying that Heikou sekai and Isekai is literally being used by TM in their own definitions to sort alternate timelines, and I am going by such definitions. This is not a matter of whether prototype is an alternate timeline to other works because it is always an alternate timeline duh. This is about how different it is from the others, in this case compare to FGO and why it is called an isekai in FGO's perspective. |
LeonmitchelliGDFeb 24, 2020 6:18 AM
| Wait Vncritical, now I think it's you who is going a bit overboard. Your last post really doesn't seem well thought at all: while Leon provided actual quotes to say that isekai is a term used in canon (which I didn't even know before this, but it's true, I checked that その正体は、何らかの存在を追ってこの世界に辿り着いた異世界の「騎士王」である), you just rambled about... I don't know. I'm honestly not sure what your point is there. "it's the same thing, Arthur comes from a Parallel World/Isekai. But it doesn't mean that Prototype is an Isekai too" Like... what? Seriously, I don't get this point. Is your point that Arthur is stated to "come from an isekai", but that doesn't imply that the world in which Prototype takes place is that isekai? I think that's your point, correct? If that's it, I think I'm going with Occam's razor here: it's easier to assume that "the world Arthur comes from" it's the same in which Prototype takes place and an isekai to FGO, rather than a third world different from both FGO and Prototype and that is an isekai to both but that also doesn't make Proto an isekai to FGO. |
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LeloTheUnamused said: Is your point that Arthur is stated to "come from an isekai", but that doesn't imply that the world in which Prototype takes place is that isekai? I think that's your point, correct? Exactly, it's not wrong to assume Prototype could be the same world in which Arthur comes from. But like I said, just wait the Material to confirm it. LB6 is probably going to have characters involving Sky Silver, so we could get some information regarding this subject in this next chapter of FGO as well. |
VncriticalFeb 24, 2020 2:55 PM
Vncritical said: Exactly, it's not wrong to assume Prototype could be the same world in which Arthur comes from. I'll...pretend your outburst post did not exist and reply to this more straight-to-the-point reply instead. I had no intention of flexing on anyone here in the first place. My intention was to explain to deg (who is unfamiliar with TM) that the writers (mostly just Nasu) utilize certain fiction terms in different ways than some other works, give more in-universe meanings to them, in this case the 2 terms. That's it. It's not like I can "flex" on people when I already linked the JP wiki that anyone, especially ppl who can understand JP here, can easily check and call me out if I'm wrong lol. Back to what you said, yes it is a fair point and I agree. In fact, I don't believe he's from the original Prototype timeline but probably a world slider like Extella Archimedes, Extella Nameless and FGO Musashi, whose world got destroyed by the Beast he's chasing after, making it impossible to determine where he was originally from, just like nobody knows what kind of worlds that Extella Nameless or FGO Musashi came from were. The reason I said "Prototype" back there was due to quoting (and paraphrasing) the wiki part I linked. If you check that page, they make a point on whether Arthur's FGO lore means that Prototype is grouped into isekai category where world foundation differs from FGO enough to be called that (hence me trying to explain the wordplay with 異), so it's not a confirmed fact. So that's my bad for not clarifying that. |
| Doesn't ruin the series but summoning literal gods as servants is dumb, "Alters" technically shouldn't be summonable and it makes no sense for them to exist in the Throne but Chaldea is full of them. Those are just nitpicks, but in general I hate the stretches and mental gymnastics it resorts to and the"loopholes" in the system it introduces to justify a potentially popular servant being in the game (to encourage players to roll for them, obviously.) The whole "pseudo-servant" concept is a prime example of that. |
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LeonmitchelliGD said: Back to what you said, yes it is a fair point and I agree. In fact, I don't believe he's from the original Prototype timeline but probably a world slider like Extella Archimedes, Extella Nameless and FGO Musashi, whose world got destroyed by the Beast he's chasing after, making it impossible to determine where he was originally from, just like nobody knows what kind of worlds that Extella Nameless or FGO Musashi came from were. Eh? Where are you getting this stuff from? The Beast did not touch or destroy Arthur's world, it escaped to other worlds after surviving the battle of Tokyo Holy Grail, and he was tasked to follow it by his Merlin as his Grand Order otherwise Ayaka's future would be in danger. I don't know where does your theory comes from, but is fairly straightforward in his quest, he made it to Avalon after the events of Prototype only to be sent back to find where the Beast was hiding otherwise Ayaka would be in danger. There's no mention of his world being pruned or anything like that. I doubt you can prune things done by a Beast either, the Human Order gets countered if they manifest, so it's not as other threats they can ignore if things go wrong like the Velber, the evil gods, meteorites crashing and restarting an Ice Age or Surtr. You got to beat them first. Musashi is from a pruned world that was likely a former parallel world to FGO and the like. She's also available and read by Chaldea Lenses Sheba and radars without an issue. The story has displayed this (likewise everything in Lostbelts can be read by their radars with the exception of the priestess). On the other hand, Arthur is from a completely different world (as you put, "isekai" as "other world" rather than pruned world or parallel world) that has no actual connection to those world history possibilities that's why Chaldea Lenses couldn't observe him. He's a completely different case. |
ThessFeb 24, 2020 7:07 PM
Trojan_Invasion said: how else are we going to maximize profits from horny weeaboosDoesn't ruin the series but summoning literal gods as servants is dumb, "Alters" technically shouldn't be summonable and it makes no sense for them to exist in the Throne but Chaldea is full of them. Those are just nitpicks, but in general I hate the stretches and mental gymnastics it resorts to and the"loopholes" in the system it introduces to justify a potentially popular servant being in the game (to encourage players to roll for them, obviously.) The whole "pseudo-servant" concept is a prime example of that. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Thess said: Eh? Where are you getting this stuff from It's just a theory I've seen floating around, rly. And I find it interesting as it would be a nice plot twist. Nothing more lol. Trojan_Invasion said: Doesn't ruin the series but summoning literal gods as servants is dumb, "Alters" technically shouldn't be summonable and it makes no sense for them to exist in the Throne but Chaldea is full of them. Those are just nitpicks, but in general I hate the stretches and mental gymnastics it resorts to and the"loopholes" in the system it introduces to justify a potentially popular servant being in the game (to encourage players to roll for them, obviously.) The whole "pseudo-servant" concept is a prime example of that. For me personally I'm fine with gods as servants as long as they are nerfed enough to justify their servant form. But I've never liked pseudo-servant concept, especially one where the personality of the vessel takeover, it feels more like an excuse to bring past characters back. Pseudo-servant Waver in particular hurts my soul cuz I'm a fan of Zhuge Liang's wits in ROTK. |
LeonmitchelliGDFeb 24, 2020 9:58 PM
ssjokg said: Dull_Lull said: Anyway I always welcome discussions regarding Fate because it's fun and engaging to me so I'll throw in some from the top of my head... 1. The infamous "I can only be summoned as a Saber class" criticism which honestly doesn't make sense to me because all other classes of Artoria are meme/event servants that shouldn't be taken seriously. Only Goddess Rhongomyniad breaks this but at least it actually makes sense since Camelot/FGO is an alternate timeline to FSN. 2. I think they also changed Berserkers in a way. There are a lot of Berserkers in FGO that don't seem to have lost their sanity but instead are just some angry people holding grudges for eternity though you can pretty much reason that out to Madness Enhancement parameters. Otherwise, every Berserker would just be growling/roaring servants. 3. IIRC it was also mentioned in FSN that only the Hassans can be summoned as Assassins and yet here we are... Kojiro has been established as an exception by the way. 4. FGO is also very and I mean VERY vague, I mean this in nicest way possible even though I'm very frustrated with it lol, with how servants' memories work. There have been multiple instances where servants seem to remember things even though they already went back to the Throne of Heroes. 5. There's also the fact that Nasuverse works in a multiverse concept so inconsistencies are bound to arise like how Archer Emiya is soooo different from his FSN counterpart. 6. I think there's also the stuff about pseudo-servants where humans supposedly cannot withstand being possessed by gods and stuff and yet here we are... Honestly, with how expansive Nasuverse is it was only a matter of time before they started retconning/changing stuff to fit in into FGO easier. 1.That's just a LIVING Saber talking tho. So it doesnt mean anything. And yes basically only her Lancer versions are not joke material. Archer is just Scathach messing with her Saint Graph. 2. That's since Apocrypha.And Zero if we count Lancelot who was fine if Artoria wasnt around. 3.Apocrypha changed that long before FGO and the limitation was only on the ritual the 3 families created. 4.Only Servants summoned with the Fuyuki ritual cant have access to other memories. The Throne does keep a record of the new memories. EMIYA is a good example of middle ground.As a CG he makes new memories and the Throne obviously lets him keep them, that's including when he is summoned in Fuyuki. 5.Only reason FSN Archer is so moody is because he is summoned in his time and faced with his younger self. Plus, that EMIYA has access to his UBW development no matter how vague that is. 6.But mythology is full of human being possessed by gods. It makes no sense that being the case in Nasuverse. Maybe you mean full power of a god destroying a human, which makes sense and answers why pseudo servants are so much weaker. 1. It doesn't really matter if it's the living Saber or not. The fact is the Artoria from FSN timelie is the one who wielded Excalibur all her life so it makes sense for her to say and assume that she can only be summoned as a Saber class. But like I said, we can excuse her Lancer version to alternate timelines and different circumstances. 2 & 3. I always forget about Apocrypha for some reason but even if it didn't originate from FGO, that part was still retconned in the end. I understand why they did it. It was too restrictive of a rule to be held faithfully. 4. Even if the HGW in FGO universe isn't the same one the original three families used, in the end they still use the same Throne of Heroes since it exists outside the realm of time. It doesn't make sense for these heroic spirits to be remembering stuff from previous singularities or whatever. 5. Emiya was already the way he was when he got summoned by Rin and didn't even meet Shirou back then. There's a very stark difference between FSN Emiya and FGO Emiya. One is the cynical cunt we know, the other is "best mom" and despite being a CG, he doesn't really seem to show some attributes he had during his time in FSN. 6. The thing is, we should just accept that pseudo-servants are just purely fanservice no matter how hard they try to justify it. The final nail in the coffin is when these pseudo-servants basically retain most of their host's original personality despite being supposedly a 30-70 ratio between both personalities. Even Demi-servants make way more sense. Honestly, I'd accept the pseudo-servant concept if the hosts they possess are like homunculus or something ala Sieg. Mei-o_Scarlett said: > Also because he keeps things ambiguous for years, the fandom (english one in particular) has developed their own fanon they consider the only valid explanation usually held as gospel and when he introduces new info that contradicts the fanon they built, they would complain he retcon it. They also take many of his jokes seriously, or his attempts of humor as serious lore or what not. When Nasu loves parody and doesn't let it influence his main storylines. They exist as an extra spice which can be enjoyed if you're a fan. this tbh but yea ,there ARE a few retcons but theyre either 1. not exlcusive to fgo and other series did it before fgo anyways hassan being broken in apo and extra long before fgo OR stuff that should be retcon because they werent a good idea for long term like berserkers not being what they are anymore cause it was honestly a miracle herc was even popular and they probably cant replicate that amt of sucess if they kept it for other servants 2. its not retcon , but rather that trope where you establish a rule and break it, cept in these ppl's dumb head, thats retcon or plotholes and these are probably the same ppl who meme that one line in jojo where kakoyin says no one can deflect the emerald splash is a plothole so Dull_Lull said: Anyway I always welcome discussions regarding Fate because it's fun and engaging to me so I'll throw in some from the top of my head... 1. The infamous "I can only be summoned as a Saber class" criticism which honestly doesn't make sense to me because all other classes of Artoria are meme/event servants that shouldn't be taken seriously. Only Goddess Rhongomyniad breaks this but at least it actually makes sense since Camelot/FGO is an alternate timeline to FSN. 2. I think they also changed Berserkers in a way. There are a lot of Berserkers in FGO that don't seem to have lost their sanity but instead are just some angry people holding grudges for eternity though you can pretty much reason that out to Madness Enhancement parameters. Otherwise, every Berserker would just be growling/roaring servants. 3. IIRC it was also mentioned in FSN that only the Hassans can be summoned as Assassins and yet here we are... Kojiro has been established as an exception by the way. 4. FGO is also very and I mean VERY vague, I mean this in nicest way possible even though I'm very frustrated with it lol, with how servants' memories work. There have been multiple instances where servants seem to remember things even though they already went back to the Throne of Heroes. 5. There's also the fact that Nasuverse works in a multiverse concept so inconsistencies are bound to arise like how Archer Emiya is soooo different from his FSN counterpart. 6. I think there's also the stuff about pseudo-servants where humans supposedly cannot withstand being possessed by gods and stuff and yet here we are... Honestly, with how expansive Nasuverse is it was only a matter of time before they started retconning/changing stuff to fit in into FGO easier. 1. mean even meme event aside, FSN also literally straight up says artoria has a whole treasure of NPs tat she uses, it makes zero sense for her to only be summoned as a saber class anyways and she qualifies for every class beside caster anyways(in the non gag sense, she qualifies for archer and assassin yes) I might have missed that part in the VN. |
Dull_LullFeb 24, 2020 10:21 PM
|
Trojan_Invasion said: Doesn't ruin the series but summoning literal gods as servants is dumb, "Alters" technically shouldn't be summonable and it makes no sense for them to exist in the Throne but Chaldea is full of them. Those are just nitpicks, but in general I hate the stretches and mental gymnastics it resorts to and the"loopholes" in the system it introduces to justify a potentially popular servant being in the game (to encourage players to roll for them, obviously.) The whole "pseudo-servant" concept is a prime example of that. Making Alters so common are probably the worst thing they ever did in FGO. |
|
| ngl, fighting over lore is some petty ass, cringe worthy shit. I've never seen fate boomers so I'll just assume they don't exist because it would be sad if they do. |
 alters arent ruined when nasu himself ruined his definition originally because it didnt sound cool in engrish ltr on he also continues that alter would fit more to stuff like the alter egos and all of those so if anything he fixed alters instead of them making no sense emiya alter and nyatha are always summonable anyways, fck nyatha alter is literally just nyatha wearing her boar np but is a diff unit cause horny weeb money emiya alter fits the original defnition and okita alter never existed in the throne, she was a one time thing made by the cgs to nuke the place but chadela saved her existance jalter and cu alter are a bit loose but would arguably fit too but they also never existed in the throne to begin with, thats the point Dull_Lull said: ssjokg said: 1.That's just a LIVING Saber talking tho. So it doesnt mean anything. And yes basically only her Lancer versions are not joke material. Archer is just Scathach messing with her Saint Graph. 2. That's since Apocrypha.And Zero if we count Lancelot who was fine if Artoria wasnt around. 3.Apocrypha changed that long before FGO and the limitation was only on the ritual the 3 families created. 4.Only Servants summoned with the Fuyuki ritual cant have access to other memories. The Throne does keep a record of the new memories. EMIYA is a good example of middle ground.As a CG he makes new memories and the Throne obviously lets him keep them, that's including when he is summoned in Fuyuki. 5.Only reason FSN Archer is so moody is because he is summoned in his time and faced with his younger self. Plus, that EMIYA has access to his UBW development no matter how vague that is. 6.But mythology is full of human being possessed by gods. It makes no sense that being the case in Nasuverse. Maybe you mean full power of a god destroying a human, which makes sense and answers why pseudo servants are so much weaker. 1. It doesn't really matter if it's the living Saber or not. The fact is the Artoria from FSN timelie is the one who wielded Excalibur all her life so it makes sense for her to say and assume that she can only be summoned as a Saber class. But like I said, we can excuse her Lancer version to alternate timelines and different circumstances. 2 & 3. I always forget about Apocrypha for some reason but even if it didn't originate from FGO, that part was still retconned in the end. I understand why they did it. It was too restrictive of a rule to be held faithfully. 4. Even if the HGW in FGO universe isn't the same one the original three families used, in the end they still use the same Throne of Heroes since it exists outside the realm of time. It doesn't make sense for these heroic spirits to be remembering stuff from previous singularities or whatever. 5. Emiya was already the way he was when he got summoned by Rin and didn't even meet Shirou back then. There's a very stark difference between FSN Emiya and FGO Emiya. One is the cynical cunt we know, the other is "best mom" and despite being a CG, he doesn't really seem to show some attributes he had during his time in FSN. 6. The thing is, we should just accept that pseudo-servants are just purely fanservice no matter how hard they try to justify it. The final nail in the coffin is when these pseudo-servants basically retain most of their host's original personality despite being supposedly a 30-70 ratio between both personalities. Even Demi-servants make way more sense. Honestly, I'd accept the pseudo-servant concept if the hosts they possess are like homunculus or something ala Sieg. Mei-o_Scarlett said: > Also because he keeps things ambiguous for years, the fandom (english one in particular) has developed their own fanon they consider the only valid explanation usually held as gospel and when he introduces new info that contradicts the fanon they built, they would complain he retcon it. They also take many of his jokes seriously, or his attempts of humor as serious lore or what not. When Nasu loves parody and doesn't let it influence his main storylines. They exist as an extra spice which can be enjoyed if you're a fan. this tbh but yea ,there ARE a few retcons but theyre either 1. not exlcusive to fgo and other series did it before fgo anyways hassan being broken in apo and extra long before fgo OR stuff that should be retcon because they werent a good idea for long term like berserkers not being what they are anymore cause it was honestly a miracle herc was even popular and they probably cant replicate that amt of sucess if they kept it for other servants 2. its not retcon , but rather that trope where you establish a rule and break it, cept in these ppl's dumb head, thats retcon or plotholes and these are probably the same ppl who meme that one line in jojo where kakoyin says no one can deflect the emerald splash is a plothole so 1. mean even meme event aside, FSN also literally straight up says artoria has a whole treasure of NPs tat she uses, it makes zero sense for her to only be summoned as a saber class anyways and she qualifies for every class beside caster anyways(in the non gag sense, she qualifies for archer and assassin yes) I might have missed that part in the VN. > Upon being summoned, she sought for a surf board that could withstand her power and ended up cheekily stea... borrowing to perpetuity one from her father's treasure vault. Its name is "Prydwen". According to legends, it is a wonder tool that could become both a ship and a shield, or something like that. mordred riders np for example is literally a shield also you do realise > Other weapons have been associated with Arthur. Welsh tradition also knew of a dagger named Carnwennan and a spear named Rhongomyniad that belonged to him. Carnwennan ("little white-hilt") first appears in Culhwch and Olwen, where Arthur uses it to slice the witch Orddu in half.[1][24] Rhongomyniad ("spear" + "striker, slayer") is also mentioned in Culhwch, although only in passing; it appears as simply Ron ("spear") in Geoffrey's Historia. Geoffrey also names Arthur's shield as Pridwen, but in Culhwch, Prydwen ("fair face") is the name of Arthur's ship while his shield is named Wynebgwrthucher ("face of evening").[1][3] lancer artoria IS actual canon to mytho that nasu just decides to use cause lol obscure shit is his fetish so thats already caliburn excalibur + avalon calrent that shield ship the dagger and lance |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
Dull_Lull said: 1. It doesn't really matter if it's the living Saber or not. The fact is the Artoria from FSN timelie is the one who wielded Excalibur all her life so it makes sense for her to say and assume that she can only be summoned as a Saber class. But like I said, we can excuse her Lancer version to alternate timelines and different circumstances. 2 & 3. I always forget about Apocrypha for some reason but even if it didn't originate from FGO, that part was still retconned in the end. I understand why they did it. It was too restrictive of a rule to be held faithfully. 4. Even if the HGW in FGO universe isn't the same one the original three families used, in the end they still use the same Throne of Heroes since it exists outside the realm of time. It doesn't make sense for these heroic spirits to be remembering stuff from previous singularities or whatever. 5. Emiya was already the way he was when he got summoned by Rin and didn't even meet Shirou back then. There's a very stark difference between FSN Emiya and FGO Emiya. One is the cynical cunt we know, the other is "best mom" and despite being a CG, he doesn't really seem to show some attributes he had during his time in FSN. 6. The thing is, we should just accept that pseudo-servants are just purely fanservice no matter how hard they try to justify it. The final nail in the coffin is when these pseudo-servants basically retain most of their host's original personality despite being supposedly a 30-70 ratio between both personalities. Even Demi-servants make way more sense. Honestly, I'd accept the pseudo-servant concept if the hosts they possess are like homunculus or something ala Sieg. 1.But she did have the other weapons no matter how much she used them. All other Heroic Spirits have access to stuff they lost or used for a limited time. Karna never used VS but he can use it easily with no problems. Gil didnt have the Chains of Heaven in life but he does as a Servant. And in the end Lartorias are not just a different aspect, they are totally different people, just like EMIYA and EMIYA Alter. 2,3.I mean, only difference is that the Berserkers can now talk.Even then most of them are batshit crazy one way or another and real communication is impossible unless the ME rank is low. 4.How a system works depends on who created it. We dont know how the Throne actually works when summoning Grands, so applying what we know about the Fuyuki ritual or the Chaldea Ritual isnt right. 5.EMIYA being a cynical cunt doesnt stop him from acting like "best mom" EMIYA(and honestly that is just a meme).EMIYA talks shit while making sure your tea is properly prepared. And again, in FSN he is so salty because Shirou is around. At the start of FSN before Shirou was involved he was just a sarcastic jerk to Rin. 6.They also help the story develop properly. Nasu cant use the real Ishtar because she would just kill everyone at the start.Messing her with Rin's personality fixes that. Sure Jaquarman is pure fanservice. But then we also have Muramasa who just looks like Shirou. |
| he cant not use ishtar and instead use peeps like zababa then again it wouldnt be the three godess alliance since eresh wouldnt be summoned and thus no godess alliance trio but ehhh also i genuinely dont get this whole > 4. FGO is also very and I mean VERY vague, I mean this in nicest way possible even though I'm very frustrated with it lol, with how servants' memories work. There have been multiple instances where servants seem to remember things even though they already went back to the Throne of Heroes. them being vauge about how memories work pretty sure theres at least 2 instances in game that mention if they're summoned by the world or by solomon, they usually dont keep their memories cause why would they and if summoned by us, they would keep it 100% or have vauge recollection about what their other self done at worst in cases like tasia or the shimousa villains |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
| Ok, type-boomer here (LOL). I haven't played FGO gacha game(and I never will), but I did watch the anime, which I enjoyed. I read the FSN VN in 2008, and watched the original anime back when it aired in my country in 2006. I am a big fan of NASU, and I've read all the VN's translated to english (fan discs included), light novels (zero, KnK, currently reading fake strange). I even watched that stupid show called prism illya. You have to understand that Type moon is a huge company, with a lot of content. So in the quest for making more, sometime they have to prioritize certain things. To make things look awesome in the screen/game, they have to sometimes disregard the "rules" they created way back then. As for contradictions in the universe or plot holes, these existed back in the original fate visual novel itself! So its a tough order to ask nasu or anyone else to always follow their own rules. If you ask me personally though, I do not consider FGO as canon. I am not in the buissness of trying to rationalize every single contradiction and argue over it. Huge waste of time and energy (and I dislike parallel world explanation). Easy to just sit back and enjoy the show without thinking too hard, especially for a show like FGO anime(whose writing is not nearly as good as nasu's other works). I enjoy thinking and arguing and making theories, but only when it is a worthwhile pursuit, and only with select people. This is just my opinion of course. I hope I've conveyed my perspective without agitating needlessly. Have a good day. |
pramitFeb 29, 2020 9:25 PM
| >if you ask me personally though, I do not consider FGO as canon. Well thank god Nasu doesnt care about that. Whatever we dont like is not canon. What childish logic is that? FGO even goes into explaining how one of the 3 families could have gotten the idea for the Fuyuki ritual. There is so much content that makes FSN and other works SO much better and yet you will ignore it because it is "a gacha game". This is the same bullshit people say for FSN VN; "It is a hentai game". |
| feels death of the author man |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
| Death of the Author is only meaningful when you first understand the author's intent, and then actively reject it. It doesn't really work when you haven't even read the material in question because of irrelevant elements like its gameplay. |
| :touche: :ded: anyways found another argument i saw someone throw about fgo ruining fate franchise classes making less and less sense and became more abritary being given for the sake of gameplay we know the one |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
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