Citrus Episode 1 Discussion

Mamumba_Mobono said:


I don't think this perspective is bizarre, this is what I'm getting from the characterization Mei got in the first episode which is admittedly very little characterization.

I will be eager to admit that I was wrong about Mei when and if the anime rectifies it's presentation of her, but for now it's quite clear that this is how I'm, the viewer, supposed to view Mei. That's what the show presented to me.

You have the benefit of hindsight. And in hindsight it very well may be that this presentation of Mei is not entirely accurate. That is a twist on the part of the show. But for now this is how Mei is presented and this is how Yuzu views Mei because so far we've seen the story exclusively from her perspective and I expect this to continue. I expect "the camera to keep following her shoulders" as it were.

LF2005 said:

the weird perspective is yours, you arguing with facts:
it was "forced"? yes, it was a sexual act? yes, so it was a sexual assault.
do that to girl, and she goes to the police, and you will be charged with "rape attempt" especially if you don't have a good lawyer.
and it is not like I hated the scene, only calling it what it was.

ichii_1 said:
Not the best quality but good enough, op is cheery unlike how the anime will be like.
That teacher forced kiss is godawful, they should have cutted it out since it contributes nothing to yuri.
The yuri scenes ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) were alright.

Veromaye said:
Yeah next time someone talks to me I'm going to charge them over 10.000$ because I thought they were sound raping me.

Mamumba_Mobono said:


Just don't be surprised if someone sues YOU if you pinned them down to the floor and kissed when you're not given clear unambiguous consent.

ramenshoujo said:
Theres no need to respond to this troll. Its obviously looking to get attention and a reaction from you.

I dunno which backwater country the fool crawled out of, but at least here in the civilized UK, forced kissing is deemed sexual assault and is not okay.

ramenshoujo said:


Theres no need to respond to this troll. Its obviously looking to get attention and a reaction from you.

I dunno which backwater country the fool crawled out of, but at least here in the civilized UK, forced kissing is deemed sexual assault and is not okay.

Veromaye said:
I'm not defending forced kisses, the only thing I said is that they're not sexual assault because is not penetration or anything related to sex itself, not because you kiss when you do that it means giving a kiss it's sex. And I never said that giving a forced kiss is something right, is NOT something okay and people should NEVER do it, but there's a very big gap between a forced kiss and a sexual assault, not only for me but in general aspects of sexology. I don't care if UK is full with people who feels triggered with someone looking at them and they instantly think that's a sexual predator act and somehow that makes them "civilized" . Oh and before you take it as I'm 'insulting' your country, I'm not, I just don't agree with these days laws that if a girl wants to randomly get money she just have to say that 'x' guy raped her and that guys life gets ruined just because she hated him.
Males are so stigmatized that now if you have a 'dick' you're instantly a rapist.

indeed good civilized world we live.

Mamumba_Mobono said:


I mean legally speaking you're wrong as far as most of the western world is concerned. You're also wrong as far as Japan is concerned, there forced kissing absolutely constitutes sexual assault. In most of the civilized world penetration is absolutely not a requirement for sexual assault. In most places TOUCHING can count as sexual assault, yes, including kissing.

Whether you're right... I dunno what to call it, ethically? That's gonna depend on your particular cultural sensibilities. You really shouldn't be surprised this is a big discussion, that's usually what happens when ethics are concerned.

Veromaye said:
I find quite ironical that you're saying that this kiss was "sexual assault", and then say that Japan thinks this is "sexual assault" and still promotes this kinds of acts to their young or even adult community, and lets not just say that this is 'fiction' to use it as a way of free pass because is not. Visual experience itself is one of the most common way to learn things and add them to our daily life. So then by your logic Japan is a very fucked up country that teaches mid-high schoolers to 'rape' their friends at the same time being a conservative country that considers holding hands as taboo or something.
Funny

Veromaye said:
I'm not surprised, trust me. I just don't accept this as a sexual assault and that's it. You can come here and tell me 'that's how I was raised", implying that I'm some sort of person who promotes abuse of any kind just because I reject this new way of dealing with EVERYTHING that people don't like just by putting the 'sexual assault" or "rape" sticker on it. In a few years or who knows if this already happened, you will see the news and will read that some girl sued her dad-mom because they gave her a hug and she took it as a sexual assault because the day before the parents didn't wanted to buy her an Iphone.

Mamumba_Mobono said:

Dude. What, the actual fuck?

It's quite the fucking opposite, if anything it teaches people to NOT be as insensitive and childish as to treat people like that! Where are you getting the idea that Mei's actions are somehow presented as something you SHOULD be doing? That episode made it very clear that what Mei did was wrong on every level. If anything it teaches people not to do this sort of thing because it feels pretty awful.

Are you just not experienced enough with media in general to understand that you can tell a story without glorifying every action of every character in that story? Are you aware that you can tell a story about a character who starts out as a piece of shit but becomes a better person through it's course? Are you not aware that that does not mean that piece of shit actions of such character are given approval?

Moreover, stories don't need to be needlessly moralizing. You can present a scenario, even a very fucked up scenario, like in this case, and refrain from making a decisive statement on how morally wrong it is. You can let the audience learn and decide on their own.

And Japan, anime in particular has a long tradition of telling stories about children exploitation. Evangelion for one. And that doesn't mean that at any point this hideous trend is actually glorified!

I swear, it's like you just have a very sheltered life experience, very little empathy and on top of that very little experience with the media of storytelling in general. My advice? Go read some books. And watch some movies. A whole lot of them in fact. Your perspective is profoundly limited.

And a slippery slope argument is always slippery. You might be right that this cultural understanding that you don't subscribe will grow into something I don't subscribe to either, but you really have no basis for that because, here's the kicker, IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET, and there's no reason to think it will.

Look. Can you at least acknowledge two simple things- one, that legally speaking actions of Mei absolutely do constitute sexual assault as far as Japan is concerned (for which I can present you proof in the form of legal statutes and precedence of people being convicted on the charges of sexual assault in similar cases) and two, that while ethically you're entitled to call whatever you want however you want and view any action done by anyone in any context as right or wrong as you want to, but at least here and now, you're among people who apparently disagree with you and believe this DOES constitute sexual assault?

I will accept that you refuse to call it sexual assault, by all means, but can you at least acknowledge that we here have the right to and do consider this sexual assault or are you just living in a strange bubble where you think that... What, that I'm lying to myself? That I myself don't really think this is sexual assault and I'm just trolling you? Or that I shouldn't be able to even think that this is sexual assault?

Because I gotta tell you my dude, this is incredibly arrogant. To stand there firmly denying this as sexual assault and demanding that we acknowledge your right not to view it as such while denying us the right to call it exactly that.

Veromaye said:
I came here asking how this was sexual assault and people just told me 'because it was forced and because kisses are sexual" while I copypasted the actual definition and it wasn't included what happened on this episode.

The best thing is that I bet people think I enjoyed that scene somehow. Which I actually did not.

Mamumba_Mobono said:


I already told you, whether you "enjoyed" it or not is kind of irrelevant here. The issue is not in whether you enjoyed that scene or not, the issue lies in what you believe that scene to be.

When it comes to this being or not being sexual assault there's two things going on here: one is whether this is legally something that would count as sexual assault and it absolutely is no matter what you think and two whether you believe something like this SHOULD be considered sexual assault due to your personal ethics.

And while we can't argue the former, we CAN argue the latter.

So let me my case for why it should be considered sexual assault.

What that first episode presented was first, the scene of Mei being pinned to the well and kissed by the teacher. It's clear that she wasn't enjoying it and couldn't do anything about it. Then in the apartment Yuzu remarks that she saw them and taunts her about the kiss in a really juvenile way. Then Mei pins her to the ground and kisses her and after letting her go she says "this is what kisses are like, don't talk about things you don't know about".

So what the anime presents is Mei having experienced kissing as violent action that makes her powerless and inflicting such action on Yuzu.

This is simply what the story unambiguously presents.

So then the question becomes "would you consider an act of sexual violence meant to hurt someone as sexual assault". And I would.

Now if you disagree with that assessment of the situation, do tell me, what do YOU think happened there? What would you call it?

Because if this was not sexual assault, what was it? How would you call it? Is it that you believe that Yuzu wanted to be kissed so it doesn't count as sexual assault? Do you think kisses don't count as sexual, even if to Yuzu they clearly do, so it just counts as regular assault? Is it that you believe that there was actually no malice on the part of Mei, which is why it wasn't assault? And if it's the last one, you're aware that hindsight is not helping you here, because whatever we may find later about Mei, it won't change the fact that in that first episode she was presented as clearly malicious.

Veromaye said:
The thing is that the kiss was not completely unwanted, unexpected, unasked but not unwanted. Again I'm not justifying the actions just because Yuzu seemed interested in kissing Mei. But then if this was a sexual assault, harassment, rape, Yuzu would TAKE it as one, doesn't matter if by your perspective "she falls in love with Mei" she would express that she felt raped, used, assaulted, but that didn't happened.

Veromaye said:
She took her just like "what was she thinking when she did it?" This is why from my perspective, and not only from mine, but from logic perspective this is not a sexual assault. I would call it a improper act, an asshole thing to do, no matter the reason. I would take this as a sexual harassment, assault, etc, if Yuzu EXPRESSED reject, fear, disgust then I would totally give you the reason, but this is NOT the case. And not because there's "data" of people who suffers commonly the Stockholm syndrome doesn't mean THIS is the case. Not because we want to believe something it means it was written like that.

Veromaye said:
And with this I conclude my explanation, if you want to believe this is sexual harassment or sexual assault then good for you, I don't see how that's right but if you want enjoy the anime because you see it like that good for you. Like I said before, I suggest you to keep watching it or start reading so you can understand a bit more what's going on or what's going to happen.

I'm sorry if I was rude before saying you're sick but eh, can't really take a blame after you told me. But yes, regardless everything I hope you end up liking the anime.

Mamumba_Mobono said:

Yet. Because that was the last scene of the first episode. We don't yet know what her reaction is going to be. Given what we were presented? I ABSOLUTELY expect her to feel that she was assaulted. If she doesn't that just makes her weird.

Wait, so let me get this straight. You believe sexual harassment is predicated upon rejection? So essentially the "can't rape the willing" argument? It's not sexual assault because Yuzu wanted it?

Ok, one, I simply do not buy that because nothing in the anime that we were shown actually points to Yuzu wanting to be kissed in that way and two I have to ask you again, is murder not murder just because a murdered person was suicidal and wanted to die? What Mei did would be sexual assault in every other case but you think it isn't because Yuzu wanted the kiss?

You are aware that this is very dangerous metric to use for sexual assault since victims of assault, especially young victims, can be very easily manipulated into believing that they wanted such interaction. And as far as I've seen, Mei did not ask Yuzu for her consent. She clearly didn't give a damn if she wanted the kiss or not. So even if it isn't sexual harassment because Yuzu wanted it, Mei STILL clearly committed sexual assault because for all she knew Yuzu did not want the kiss.


It's a dangerous water you're treading here. This kind of view on sexual assault is fine as long as you have a situation of two people who express unambiguous consent in the activity, but it breaks down when one party doesn't care about consent and doesn't give the other even time to think if they consent or not. At this point, after the fact, it's no longer even possible to tell for certain whether Yuzu wanted it or not, because it's possible and you know that it is, that she later simply rationalizes the event and convinces herself that she wanted it at the time.

I can agree with your assessment of what makes or breaks sexual harassment, but Yuzu was clearly not given time to decide whether she wanted the kiss or not. I honestly don't know where you got the idea that Yuzu wanted the kiss if not post facto and that is very dangerous. You wouldn't think that a sexually exploited child, groomed by sick people, who sincerely believes that they wanted and still do want sexual interactions is not sexually abused would you?

Oh, now I'm committed. But I still think you simply haven't given much thought to the nuance of sexual interaction between people. It's rarely as clear cut as people being able to tell immediately what they want and that they want it. And it's even more complicated if you throw a selfish person who doesn't care about consent into the mix.

And I'm speaking as someone who WAS that selfish person at one point. Perhaps that's the perspective you're missing.

Veromaye said:
We are not talking about children or disabled people, we are talking about a 16-17 year old who can reject something that some girl that has her same age did? Is not like she was tied down? is not like she extort her to do it? is not like if Yuzu was forced to do it because she needed something from Mei. Heck she could even punch her or slap her hard if she really was disgusted by Mei actions. But she didn't, and again you NEED to understand what happens next to see Yuzu actions about that kiss.

That what you're talking is a way different point and it doesn't join what we're talking and what we're talking is about CITRUS EP 1 KISS SCENE.

Mamumba_Mobono said:


15 year olds. And yeah, for all intents and purposes that's CHILDREN. And one of those children was clearly exploited and abused and definitely had no way of rejecting sexual actions foisted on her. These are not adults who understand their own feelings, these are CHILDREN who don't know shit. If you can genuinely say that a 15 year old teenager can decide what they want sexually done to them you SEVERELY lack empathy and understanding for people around you. You can't honestly say that Yuzu wanted that kiss, you're pulling that assertion straight out of your ass to justify the whole situation and were it real life, it would be genuinely disgusting.

Like you're talking as if it's just completely obvious to everyone that Yuzu wanted that kiss and was aware of that and that's just not the case. She was absolutely not given enough time to decide whether she wanted to kiss Mei or not.

That is even an important plot point for christ's sake! Their second kiss is supposed to be made special SPECIFICALLY by the fact that they have to grow into understanding better what it means and both wanting it. The whole plot of the anime is shot to hell if Uzu genuinely wanted that first kiss. There's no development for her as a character in that case.

And this is probably the last thing I will write here, because I'm fed up with you.You never acknowledge points that have been made that you couldn't answer, you simply ignore them, you jump topics and move goal-posts all the time and you keep talking with this smarmy confidence of someone who believes they can't possibly be wrong, you show absolutely no good faith towards the person you're talking to even though I've given you plenty good faith and am genuinely trying to understand your thought process. You don't know how to argue.

Veromaye said:
Glad you grew tired of me because I'm tired of this pointless conversation with someone who just throw facts that don't have a connection with what happened in here just to be right.

Mamumba_Mobono said:

Facts that don't have anything to do with this situation like the Yuzu and Mei come from a culture where kissing absolutely is sexual so it's sexual for them? Like the fact that Yuzu had no way of making her mind on whether she wanted the kiss or not? Like the fact that even if she wanted it for all we know Mei wanted to hurt her so she still intended it to be sexual assault whether Yuzu took it as such or not?

You can ignore these facts, but in fact what you're trying to do here is substitute your own cultural understanding for what the characters in the story actually would have. Whether you in your weird bubble where kissing is not seen as sexual act think so is irrelevant to whether the characters think so or not I'm just sorry, they absolutely do.

And you can say that Stockholm Syndrome isn't what's happening her but you have no basis for that claim, again outside of your cultural understanding. Your issue is that you have no empathy. You can't look at this from a different perspective, from a perspective of someone who DOES view kissing as sexual and who is a young, impressionable teen unable to make her mind on what she actually wants. It's understandable that YOU can't see kisses as sexual but it astonishes me that you can't comprehend the simple fact that other people do and in fact both Mei and Yuzu do. You're an absolute sociopath.

LF2005 said:

lets explain to you something

sexual haresmant- it can be something as low as calling a girl a whore, so nowadays you better think twice about what you say to a girl. I think it can be very hypocritical, especially when it is totally up to them if they take semethings as a compliments or as arrestments (of course calling someone a whore can't be considered a compliment under any sircunstance)

sexual assault- contains the range from anything more than holding her hand to rape, yes it contains rape but, sexual assault≠rape. let's make it easier for you let's say colors="sexual assault" & red="rape" you can't say that colors=red.

I didn't said it was rape, I called it a second degree "sexual assault" basically. & it has nothing do with if she wanted it or not.
you can argue that if she didn't wanted it she will now place charges and if she doesn't it is because she wanted it, but wrong again. You know how many woman that have being rape don't place charges? for many reasons, with they wantting it not being one of them.

this are facts, you really can't argue with that

Veromaye said:


Let me explain you something, I know every law and rule nowadays people make. And I sure do know that women and MEN (Btw because guys CAN GET RAPED TOO ) don't report the sexual abuse. This doesn't mean that what WE SAW in the episode enters in here because you connected it to it. Not because we see something we don't like it means it's what we think. I used to think that when my mom kissed my dad was disgusting and not right, but then I grew up and understood that kisses represent love and are a way to express feelings. Let's say that if I still had that mentality and I saw my dad mad and she kisses him and he doesn't feel too positive of getting the kiss, then my mom raped, or abused or attacked my dad? WTF. No sir, that's wrong.

And not only is wrong to represent this as a sexual assault. You're just assuming it because it's 'normal' for people to not say anything about the attack, but then you forget that, even if Yuzu didn't told anyone about this, she still don't feel repulsion or fear for her step sister.
So how and WHY would I see this as a sexual assault if the person doesn't see it as one? OH and ironically she DOES SAW the kiss with the professor as SEXUAL ASSAULT, so the character is AWARE of what is sexual assault, she's not retarded.

LF2005 said:

you are totally ignoring the fact that Mei pinned her down by force to the ground, made sure to inmovilisaize her hands buy holdong them firmly and pushing all her weit in an arc position so to leave no chanse for Yuzu to resist, to me it even seems she thrust her knee between her legs.

I'm also getting the felling that you think I'm a feminist woman, I'm sertainly not feminist & defenitely not a woman.

TheAce78 said:
I would just like to point out really quick that Harumin is t h i c c