Ikuhara once stated that male-female relationships capture the attention of the viewer way too much, while female-female are more subtle. At first I thought this was bullshit, but I see part of truth in that idea when put in practise.
That's pretty insightful. But imo at least from my experience yuri undertones are just annoying and feel like teases, and because they are subtle they don't make the motivations of certain characters quite logical or clear (i.e Madoka 3rd movie)
Eh, I'd say at this point it's really just a matter of personal experience, because I believe there are quite a few examples of anime/manga that have yuri undertones which aren't in detrimental to the characters in the way you described. Not that I know a lot of them, but I do have some counter-examples in mind:
-Utena and Anthy in the TV series (I've seen some fans deny the romantic/sexual aspect of their relationship more than once, even though the movie completely debunks the theory that they weren't gay for each other)
-Neptune and Uranus in Sailor Moon (as well as a few other relationships with homosexual undertones)
-Saber and Irisviel in F/0 : very subtle and not really romantic (then again romance is not 100% necessary in yuri) but doesn't detract either characters from the role they're being given in the story.
-The soon-to-be-animated 100% canon Yumikuri pairing from SnK. Their actions and motivations are often directly dictated by their desire to protect their significant other. Even though no concrete physical sign of their love has been shown, it doesn't hurt the characters at all.
etc. I suppose.
Yeah, also for me it's definitely a personal preference. One of the reasons why I dropped Utena was because I didn't care or want to see yuri stuff the yuri interest of Utena in particular seemed like the type of character I would find annoying. Along with how Utena the characters and the male antagonists seem to be the reverse of their stereotypical gender roles.
Iris and Saber o_o
Tbh, I've never seen them like this. Sure Saber looked like a Knight that always escorted Iris, but I didn't feel it was more than friendship and mutual respect, not to mention that Iris was in love with Kerry. Very subtle indeed and proves your point about it not being detrimental to the characters. But how can yuri be non-romantic? I can understand platonic counting but non-romantic as well?
About your SnK example. This is exactly what I actually want to happen. In contrast to Madoka, their relationship is much more clearer, and especially considering the world they live in, it only makes their desire to protect each other that much believable. I don't even consider it an undertone, it's pretty much canon like you said. That a good example of Yuri outside a yuri series, one that I don't have a problem with, but I think is good.
Although there are quite a lot of fanarts out there, I knew you'd be surprised about SaberxIri, haha. It's probably because as Ikuhara pointed out, female-female relationships are usually harder to detect and as a result we tend not pay as much attention to interactions between two girls when it's not purposefully emphasized. But even if shippers get a little crazy at times, pairings rarely come out of nowhere; so I guess that most fans were attracted by the knight/princess aspect of Saber and Iri's relationship dynamics.
Now to answer your question, yuri is, contrary to yaoi, not only focused on romance and thus lesbianism: it refers to any kind of work that focuses on any kind of intimate relationship between women, whether they be emotional, sentimental, sexual etc. So it encompasses a lot of things, actually.
I get what you mean about SnK (compared with how it's handled in Madoka Magica). Openly lesbian relationships is also something I wouldn't mind seeing more in anime.
MortalMelancholy said:
Mayuka said:
MortalMelancholy said: Still not as bad or as graphic.
implying LGBT shows involve sexual content
Both "Yaoi" and "Yuri" imply it (to me, at least). As opposed to "Shounen Ai" and "Shoujo Ai."
For me and this is coming from a female perspective it's because yaoi has a lot of terrible troupes that need to die. Every time I watch a shounen ai it's almost always one guy molesting the other into a relationship. Why can't I just have a nice gay romance without rape in it(That being said there are exceptions like Love Stage which did have one rapey scene which was immediately dismissed as bad). That being said there are yuri troupes I don’t like either the girls are either portrayed as innocent school girls who will "grow out of it" or creepy stalkers that have something wrong with them(Why YuriKuma is so great it takes those two lesbian stereotypes to the extreme and smashes them).
Japan needs to fix it's skewed views of homosexuals.
Sarahtoga104 said: For me and this is coming from a female perspective it's because yaoi has a lot of terrible troupes that need to die. Every time I watch a shounen ai it's almost always one guy molesting the other into a relationship. Why can't I just have a nice gay romance without rape in it(That being said there are exceptions like Love Stage which did have one rapey scene which was immediately dismissed as bad). That being said there are yuri troupes I don’t like either the girls are either portrayed as innocent school girls who will "grow out of it" or creepy stalkers that have something wrong with them(Why YuriKuma is so great it takes those two lesbian stereotypes to the extreme and smashes them).
Japan needs to fix it's skewed views of homosexuals.
IIRC, japanese females have some sort of rape fetish. Literally, almost 90% of all yaoi mangas that I've read have a seme that forces the uke to have sex with him in a rapey manner.
Tenshi_Shura said: IIRC, japanese females have some sort of rape fetish. Literally, almost 90% of all yaoi mangas that I've read have a seme that forces the uke to have sex with him in a rapey manner.
more like 60%
the older ones use the rape trope really badly but there's a lot of new series that are consensual and i'm loving that change
spike12ify said: Because Yuri fans are not cancerous like the yaoi ones are
Sarahtoga104 said: For me and this is coming from a female perspective it's because yaoi has a lot of terrible troupes that need to die. Every time I watch a shounen ai it's almost always one guy molesting the other into a relationship. Why can't I just have a nice gay romance without rape in it(That being said there are exceptions like Love Stage which did have one rapey scene which was immediately dismissed as bad). That being said there are yuri troupes I don’t like either the girls are either portrayed as innocent school girls who will "grow out of it" or creepy stalkers that have something wrong with them(Why YuriKuma is so great it takes those two lesbian stereotypes to the extreme and smashes them).<br />
<br />
Japan needs to fix it's skewed views of homosexuals.
<br />
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IIRC, japanese females have some sort of rape fetish. Literally, almost 90% of all yaoi mangas that I've read have a seme that forces the uke to have sex with him in a rapey manner.
Good thing that not all japanese females are into yaoi, then.
It's funny, after all that (which i didn't read), the answer is actually philosophical.
Well most simply put, if you were to take a vote from all humans on which sex they thought was more beautiful, majority would say female, females included. As a race, most people prefer the female form (sometimes even gays admit women are prettier). Then there's also a biological (and tested factor) that female sexuality is a lot more flexible than males. A guy is more likely to oppose that which outside their set fetishes, whereas a girl is more likely to have a lot more flexibility. Again tested: it's a lot easier to arouse a woman than it is to arouse a man.
Thus yuri is more universally accepted. Also, it's more cute.
PS: japanese media is completely centred around glorifying girls. It's almost always either by girls or about girls. Stuff that doesn't concern girls or at least guys who like girls, is rare. So girls are more appreciated all around.
Because yuri evolves two females. Unlike yaoi which evolves two males?
With that being said its all base on sexual preference. Do you like seeing two girls go at? Yes. Then watch yuri. Do you like seeing to guys go at it? Yes. Then watch yaoi. If you like one you mostly inclind to dislike the other, or you may even enjoy both. It all goes back to sexual preference.
spike12ify said: Because Yuri fans are not cancerous like the yaoi ones are
neither are cancerous
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From my experience, they're both cancerous.
For me finding a Yuri fan is pretty rare, let alone them being cancerous. Yaoi fans make every male in an anime gay and you see it EVERYWHERE. Fucking annoying. Then there would be that one kid (if any) that would make a Yuri ship, at least it ain't everywhere.
spike12ify said: Yaoi fans make every male in an anime gay and you see it EVERYWHERE. Fucking annoying. Then there would be that one kid (if any) that would make a Yuri ship, at least it ain't everywhere.
Both yaoi and yuri fans have homo goggles on though
It's not that surprising
At least they're not making characters heteronormative
15poundfish said: Yaoi is just female rape fantasies with gorillas. Yuri is often innocent, lots of rainbows and love. Its clear which one is superior.
Junjo Romantica tho
"No matter how cold and distant people may become, on the inside something warm and precious always remains, something that never changes." - Clannad
15poundfish said: Yaoi is just female rape fantasies with gorillas. Yuri is often innocent, lots of rainbows and love. Its clear which one is superior.
HeyHarp said: Guys in yaoi, I say, are too sensitive. Girls in yuri-- well... They are quite aggressive.
don't really see why that's a problem.
Sarahtoga104 said: For me and this is coming from a female perspective it's because yaoi has a lot of terrible troupes that need to die. Every time I watch a shounen ai it's almost always one guy molesting the other into a relationship. Why can't I just have a nice gay romance without rape in it(That being said there are exceptions like Love Stage which did have one rapey scene which was immediately dismissed as bad). That being said there are yuri troupes I don’t like either the girls are either portrayed as innocent school girls who will "grow out of it" or creepy stalkers that have something wrong with them(Why YuriKuma is so great it takes those two lesbian stereotypes to the extreme and smashes them).
Japan needs to fix it's skewed views of homosexuals.
^^^ true. a quite reasonable answer as to why somebody might dislike yaoi
slicesofcake said: The only thing that really annoys me is the amount of fujoshi you find in any fanbase of any popular sports anime series (Kuroko no Basket, Haikyuu!!, Free!, you name it). I mean, talking about their ships and how everyone is gay is all they ever do. You wanna talk about the plot, the characters development, anything of the sort? Forget that.
They do though
They probably emphasize character development more than any fan
If you read doujins (the non sexual ones) and fanfiction, you'd be surprised by how well written they are
I'm amazed how female fans (esp fujoshi) can make a simple shounen sausagefest show into something really complex and well written
Really? Well, maybe I could try reading them sometime. I'm just talking about what I've seen on Twitter, for example. Whenever there's a new episode of Haikyuu!!, everyone (who's fujoshi) is talking about how Akaashi and Bokuto are so gay for each other, who's uke and who's seme, or about Kenma and Kuroo, or Hinata and Kageyama... but it's always about the ships, how they're gay, how they should be together. No one talks about their character development, especially between Hinata and Kageyama. That's why I got that impression.
what is up with people (sorry, fangirls, they're the only creatures who'd do this) gaying up haikyuu and kuroko? fair enough, i haven't seen basket, but there is absolutely no air of that in haikyuu. i honestly don't get it. everyone knows free has that air but everyone also knows that it's geared towards fangirls who eat that stuff up anyway. but that's like the only one.
I don't dislike yaoi or yuri (just hentai versions).
Why do people dislike yaoi but not yuri? Because most of the people who like yuri are men, and most men who are into yuri will most likely not be into dudes.
However, I think it's fucking stupid when people debate which one is better.
I mean come on, really? How can you debate if yuri is better than yaoi?
No wonder that people dislike it. To be fair, yaoi is generally an ecchi for girls. It's poorly written, has lots of tropes and fanservice is everywhere...
I though which that was the reason, but then I recalled that n°6 was pretty decent and people was bitching because "it has gays".
But nobody has problems with Urobuchi lesbians. How hypocrite.
TL;DR: People is more homophobic towards men than women.
KonaKoffee4 said: homophobia by straight males :^)
lol, being scared of gays
Zenosara said: I'm not the biggest fan of yaoi. I'm happy that others enjoy watching it, but it's not for me. And I prefer yuri. I mean have you seen Strawberry Panic?! Great lesbian show. I just want more girl love in anime..
not a fan of either, but i'd choose yuri in a heartbeat before yaoi. and that's only if i had a choice. on my own...yea not touching that stuff lol
Yaoi is ecchi equivalent for females. And most females can not write male characters to save their life.
If ecchi gets flamed for it's content then so be Yaoi.
There should be more shounen ai wriiten by actual gay men just like most yuri are.
I would love to read them.
This has been already answered, but I'll repeat it anyway.
Most anime fans (Otaku) are male, which means that yuri/lesbianism is popular among us. Why? Because we're already attracted to females, so having double the female is almost double the fun. Likewise, the females in our fanbase are drawn to yaoi for the same reason, double the male is almost double the fun. Most otakus dislike yaoi because frankly, they aren't Gay. In other words, they're not turned on at the sight of a male.
Talidin1337 said: This has been already answered, but I'll repeat it anyway.
Most anime fans (Otaku) are male, which means that yuri/lesbianism is popular among us. Why? Because we're already attracted to females, so having double the female is almost double the fun. Likewise, the females in our fanbase are drawn to yaoi for the same reason, double the male is almost double the fun. Most otakus dislike yaoi because frankly, they aren't Gay. In other words, they're not turned on at the sight of a male.